Good evening all! I have been building and play-testing five mono-colored decks for the purposes of creating a balanced, fun Star-format game... but the balance aspect of the deck building is proving a bit of a challenge. The White and Green decks have co-won every single play test so far, which makes sense. They're the oldest and strongest of the decks. I built them both a long time ago and only minor tweaks were needed to make them work for this format. On the other hand, I've never built a mono-red or mono-black deck (let alone for multiplayer) and it shows. Black especially suffers, since it's opponents are the strongest decks. I am currently in the process of tweaking the Black, Red, and Blue decks. I consider White and Green complete, but I'm always open to feedback. Any assistance/opinions/guidance y'all might have would be most appreciated.
Overall thoughts as I have been building/tweaking:
Each deck has a planeswalker, hopefully thematically suited to the deck they're in.
Green - Treefolk tribal. Very consistent, I don't think it needs any tweaks at the moment.
- Shifting the build to be Waste Not centric after Prid3's advice.
- Update: Removing the bulk of the strongest cards that hit all players like Bottomless Pit, Abyssal Gatekeeper, etc as these created a feel-bad experience for the non-opponent players. This may weaken the deck more than I would like, but this particular format calls for a little more finesse.
Red - Token-themed, with slight tweaks be added.
Blue - Sea monster, Quest for Ula's Temple-based deck. Making the deck more cohesive, again thanks to Prid3's advice.
And don't play marginal lands that don't do anything. Bojuka Bog has nothing to hit against Green/White (unless I'm missing something) and Leechridden Swamp is too slow.
Red - All of those changes make sense, I'll work those in shortly.
Blue - I really enjoy the Quest for Ula's Temple build/theme, but if cutting it makes more sense for the deck, I'm open. The Cloudpost/Islands issue makes sense. I'd definitely just go ~24 Islands then.
Black - Is moving into Waste Not the strongest direction to take it? I have no problem with that and I agree the deck is in shambles... just curious if there are other directions to take it to instead. Again, I'm open, it's not a deck/color I'm familiar with. Bojuka Bog was mostly there to deal with Emeria, the Sky Ruin or the Exhume/Tempt with Immortality interactions. Really not needed, so cutting it out is fine by me.
Black - Is moving into Waste Not the strongest direction to take it? I have no problem with that and I agree the deck is in shambles... just curious if there are other directions to take it to instead. Again, I'm open, it's not a deck/color I'm familiar with. Bojuka Bog was mostly there to deal with Emeria, the Sky Ruin or the Exhume/Tempt with Immortality interactions. Really not needed, so cutting it out is fine by me.
One Emeria that will only be relevant in a small % of games isn't worth having an ETBT land and you should never play cards like Exhume over Animate Dead variants in multiplayer.
For the Black deck I like the Waste Not route but if you're looking for budget alternatives the main ones are Gray Merchant of Asphodel devotion and monoblack Control (all mass removal all the time). "Zombies" also works as a theme but that's basically just another version of the Gray Merchant archetype. An example would include:
And I'm assuming that you can't afford Relentless Dead because that card is insane otherwise. The main thing is to have 30 creatures for Grave Defiler and also to make Corpse Augurs better. For spells anything from Exsanguinate to Massacre to Grave Pact to Zombie Apocalypse will work just fine. It doesn't matter much. You can't play fewer than 30 creatures and still field Grave Defiler (I'll literally call your mother and tell on you) so if you cut back on creatures you have to use other draw engines such as Graveborn Muse or Phyrexian Arena. With 30 "hits" she draws 2 cards on average and that's what you want to make her competitive.
Black - Is moving into Waste Not the strongest direction to take it? I have no problem with that and I agree the deck is in shambles... just curious if there are other directions to take it to instead. Again, I'm open, it's not a deck/color I'm familiar with. Bojuka Bog was mostly there to deal with Emeria, the Sky Ruin or the Exhume/Tempt with Immortality interactions. Really not needed, so cutting it out is fine by me.
One Emeria that will only be relevant in a small % of games isn't worth having an ETBT land and you should never play cards like Exhume over Animate Dead variants in multiplayer.
For the Black deck I like the Waste Not route but if you're looking for budget alternatives the main ones are Gray Merchant of Asphodel devotion and monoblack Control (all mass removal all the time). "Zombies" also works as a theme but that's basically just another version of the Gray Merchant archetype. An example would include:
And I'm assuming that you can't afford Relentless Dead because that card is insane otherwise. The main thing is to have 30 creatures for Grave Defiler and also to make Corpse Augurs better. For spells anything from Exsanguinate to Massacre to Grave Pact to Zombie Apocalypse will work just fine. It doesn't matter much. You can't play fewer than 30 creatures and still field Grave Defiler (I'll literally call your mother and tell on you) so if you cut back on creatures you have to use other draw engines such as Graveborn Muse or Phyrexian Arena. With 30 "hits" she draws 2 cards on average and that's what you want to make her competitive.
My Waste Not deck is also very powerful and relatively consistent however and should still be strongly considered.
I already have three of the four Waste Not's, so moving that direction wouldn't be too hard. Overall, I'm not too concerned with budget (if each deck prices out to white/green), I'm trading for most of these cards... it'll just take some time to actually assemble. I'll probably go the Waste Not route and see how it interacts with the giant boards Green and White tend to establish. Thanks!
Well we still have to deal with the Blue deck too. There's a million ways to build Blue but if I'm stuck building around Quest for Ula's Temple I'd probably go for something like:
Right, Blue. It's actually one of my favorite colors to build and play, but the many directions to take the deck (it's evolved a lot over the years) have definitely made it weaker. Making it mostly creatures certainly makes sense with the Quest. Out of curiosity, what do you not like about the Quest? Just how long it takes to set up? It seemed fairly strong to me putting a fatty into play every end step (in multiplayer anyway). What direction would you take it if you weren't stuck with the Quest?
Right, Blue. It's actually one of my favorite colors to build and play, but the many directions to take the deck (it's evolved a lot over the years) have definitely made it weaker. Making it mostly creatures certainly makes sense with the Quest. Out of curiosity, what do you not like about the Quest? Just how long it takes to set up? What direction would you take it if you weren't stuck with the Quest?
I don't like quest because it doesn't win games very consistently. I'm a competitive person and if a card doesn't routinely put me in a position to win then I don't care about it. Take your current set of decks for example. You said that the Blue deck virtually never wins. Either the person playing the Blue deck is always a weak player (unlikely) or the deck itself is too weak (more likely). If you don't even win when you draw your namesake card on turn 1 what good is it? Even if it doesn't win it should at least make for a close game.
When it comes to Blue there's many avenues to consider. For the purposes of this discussion I would much rather play a deck along the lines of:
The only tricky interaction is that you need to constantly Repeal and/or Crush of Tentacles your Mystic Remoras to reset their CUs. Otherwise it's a value deck that chains Crush of Tentacles into Mnemonic Wall into Crush repeat ad nauseam. Whelming Wave works too but the 8/8 helps to close games out so /shrug. Also, PLEASE READ THE ORACLE TEXT ON Mystic Remora! It affects EACH opponent and not just 1.
The Blue deck virtually never wins, but it also wasn't drawing Quest enough, and was trying to do too many things at the same time. I think I'll try a modified version of your first suggestion in the next playtest (I have most of those cards anyway) and see how it fairs before abandoning the whole thing.
If it doesn't work out, I'll be interested to test out your other build.
Thanks again for all of the feedback. I look forward to seeing how the next round of testing works out
The Blue deck virtually never wins, but it also wasn't drawing Quest enough...
TL;DR You're not mulliganing enough. In MP you get a free mull so if your first 7 doesn't contain Quest you ship it no questions asked unless the rest of the grip is INSANE. Next 7 still no Quest? Strongly consider dropping to 6, especially if the hand is weak and clogged with uncastable fatties. By going 7-7-6 you're extremely likely to see a Quest in your opening grip.
Long version: Using hypergeometric distribution we can determine that the probability of drawing one or more copies of a specific 4-of in your opening hand to be 0.399499625744666 which we'll round to 40% for simplicity's sake. Given that you receive a free mulligan in a multiplayer setting should you fail to find that "key card" on your first look you can then take another crack at it. Once again you'll have a 40% chance of locating your "key card" as none of the variables or numbers have changed. Now let's assume that you're willing to mull down to 6 cards in a multiplayser setting if you think that it will improve your chances of succeeding. That's fair right? Well, once you mulligan a second time you get to see 6 cards + Scry 1 and assuming that your Scry isn't your "key card" then at the start of your turn you get an 8th crack at it when you draw your card. That is, on your second mulligan you get to see up to 8 cards and that calculates out to a 0.444820408707332 probability of finding your "key card." For simplicity's sake we'll use 44% so that I can't be accused of inflating numbers but it doesn't matter one way or another. All told the cumulative probability of finding the key card that you're looking for calculates out to be 0.4 + (1-0.4)(0.4) + (1-0.4)(1-0.4)(0.44)= 0.7984 or 80%. While this number is slightly inflated given that it's undeniably possible to draw hands that include your "key card" but that you cannot possibly keep it still highlights why the mulligan phase is such an important aspect of multiplayer deck-building. Insofar as you're willing to blindly mull for a card you have an extremely high probability of finding it.
The deck was also only running three Quest's and the play tester was testing blind. All of that math and strategy makes a lot of sense. The deck will run four Quests and whoever play tests it will get that particular tidbit passed along as well.
The decks are now built and quasi-testing has begun. I say quasi-testing because our play group hasn't had a chance to play all five decks against each other. The first test match was R vs U. The game was over in a matter of minutes with a very close win going to U. The second game was a three-way free for all between R, U, and B. The biggest problem became apparent when B fairly quickly discarded everyone's hands with two copies of Waste Not in play... and then did nothing at all. Once red and blue's hands were emptied, (and red had wiped the board), black really couldn't do anything but lose. Obviously, B wasn't facing it's much more creature heavy enemies, but when all five decks are playing against each other, there are a lot of board wipes. I feel like black needs a decent amount of help still. I'll report back when a proper play test has been conducted.
The decks are now built and quasi-testing has begun. I say quasi-testing because our play group hasn't had a chance to play all five decks against each other. The first test match was R vs U. The game was over in a matter of minutes with a very close win going to U. The second game was a three-way free for all between R, U, and B. The biggest problem became apparent when B fairly quickly discarded everyone's hands with two copies of Waste Not in play... and then did nothing at all. Once red and blue's hands were emptied, (and red had wiped the board), black really couldn't do anything but lose. Obviously, B wasn't facing it's much more creature heavy enemies, but when all five decks are playing against each other, there are a lot of board wipes. I feel like black needs a decent amount of help still. I'll report back when a proper play test has been conducted.
Don't judge the Waste Not deck until you've seen it in action in a 5 player game. If it needs tweaking just add Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins or Mindslicer to give it a bit more explosive power. It shouldn't need drastic changes at all.
The decks are now built and quasi-testing has begun. I say quasi-testing because our play group hasn't had a chance to play all five decks against each other. The first test match was R vs U. The game was over in a matter of minutes with a very close win going to U. The second game was a three-way free for all between R, U, and B. The biggest problem became apparent when B fairly quickly discarded everyone's hands with two copies of Waste Not in play... and then did nothing at all. Once red and blue's hands were emptied, (and red had wiped the board), black really couldn't do anything but lose. Obviously, B wasn't facing it's much more creature heavy enemies, but when all five decks are playing against each other, there are a lot of board wipes. I feel like black needs a decent amount of help still. I'll report back when a proper play test has been conducted.
Don't judge the Waste Not deck until you've seen it in action in a 5 player game. If it needs tweaking just add Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins or Mindslicer to give it a bit more explosive power. It shouldn't need drastic changes at all.
Keep in mind though, in this format, the deck will only ever face two opponents. In this case, the White and Green decks. Waste Not won't get any more steam than it already has.
The decks are now built and quasi-testing has begun. I say quasi-testing because our play group hasn't had a chance to play all five decks against each other. The first test match was R vs U. The game was over in a matter of minutes with a very close win going to U. The second game was a three-way free for all between R, U, and B. The biggest problem became apparent when B fairly quickly discarded everyone's hands with two copies of Waste Not in play... and then did nothing at all. Once red and blue's hands were emptied, (and red had wiped the board), black really couldn't do anything but lose. Obviously, B wasn't facing it's much more creature heavy enemies, but when all five decks are playing against each other, there are a lot of board wipes. I feel like black needs a decent amount of help still. I'll report back when a proper play test has been conducted.
Don't judge the Waste Not deck until you've seen it in action in a 5 player game. If it needs tweaking just add Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins or Mindslicer to give it a bit more explosive power. It shouldn't need drastic changes at all.
Keep in mind though, in this format, the deck will only ever face two opponents. In this case, the White and Green decks. Waste Not won't get any more steam than it already has.
Fair enough. The core of the deck should still work fine (I.Blood, Smallpox, B.Pit, etc.) and the main thing is to push the Waste Not theme hard enough to matter. If it's not quite there yet then you'll want some more mass discard to enable those big combo-style turns.
The problem really wasn't in the discard package. The problem was, when the opponents' hands were empty... the deck did nothing at all. The zombie tokens were gone with a single Blasphemous Act and had nothing left to do. That's why I'm considering the cards below. At least they will do something with the cards in your GY. A Bonehoard or two might also help perhaps? Not really sure what to make the deck do once the opponents' hands are empty.
I've had a similar set of five decks for several years, but mine are all singleton in nature, and are best described as Commander-lite. Keeping them balanced has been a fun subgame played by me, the builder.
I really don't have much input for your decks, but want to point out that all five decks should fit nicely in a deckbuilder's toolbox box, even when sleeved, as well as any tokens you should need.
Enjoy keeping them balanced.
Cheers!
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The problem really wasn't in the discard package. The problem was, when the opponents' hands were empty... the deck did nothing at all. The zombie tokens were gone with a single Blasphemous Act and had nothing left to do. That's why I'm considering the cards below. At least they will do something with the cards in your GY. A Bonehoard or two might also help perhaps? Not really sure what to make the deck do once the opponents' hands are empty.
With respect to mass removal, I'm sure that I see the problem. You generate a board full of 2/2s against opponents who have no cards in hand. Sure, a small % of the time they topdeck a Wrath and you lose. That's Magic. It's not like the Red deck has a bunch of B.Acts and plenty of ways to find them.
Counting up the board sweepers, there are eleven. Granted, four of those are your own so we'll say seven wipes might hit the board at any time. The odds aren't super high, but having your deck do nothing at all with no way to recover with a single wipe is... less than ideal. Empty the Pits at least can be a way to recover and be something to spend the Dark Ritual/Waste Not mana on. That might be enough?
I don't mind the Reassembling Skeleton + Bonehoard package because it's more resilient. Empty the Pits is fine as a 1-of but you can't really play multiples since it's bad early and you're rarely able to extract value from future copies. This isn't like a Blue deck full of fetchlands and cantrips that can support 4x Treasure Cruise.
A good point. I've made changes to the deck. We shall see what happens with a proper playtest!
It should be decent. Pox decks have very strong early-game mass removal and most mid-game sequences involving Kalitas or Waste Not should be good enough to give the deck a real shot to win. Only having 2 opponents as opposed to 3 certainly cuts the power-level of WN but it's generally oppressive at 3+ opponents anyways so that's not exactly a bad thing.
Overall thoughts as I have been building/tweaking:
- Update: Removing the bulk of the strongest cards that hit all players like Bottomless Pit, Abyssal Gatekeeper, etc as these created a feel-bad experience for the non-opponent players. This may weaken the deck more than I would like, but this particular format calls for a little more finesse.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Treefolk Harbinger
4 Bosk Banneret
2 Heartwood Storyteller
3 Dungrove Elder
4 Leaf-Crowned Elder
2 Dauntless Dourbark
4 Timber Protector
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Collective Voyage
2 Quest for Renewal
3 Nature's Lore
3 Back to Nature
2 Spidersilk Armor
2 Overwhelming Stampede
Land (21)
18 Forest
2 Sapseep Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2 Student of Warfare
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Court Street Denizen
2 Gideon's Avenger
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Abzan Falconer
3 Abzan Battle Priest
3 Thraben Doomsayer
2 Odric, Master Tactician
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Riders of Gavony
1 Angelic Overseer
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
20 Plains
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2x Reassembling Skeleton
3x Zulaport Cutthroat
3x Liliana's Specter
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Sangromancer
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
3x Vicious Rumors
3x Shrieking Affliction
4x Dark Ritual
3x Tyrant's Choice
4x Waste Not
1x Words of Waste
1x Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
2x Bite of the Black Rose
2x The Eldest Reborn
1x Empty the Pits
1x Capital Punishment
Lands (24)
2x Cabal Stronghold
22x Swamp
Edit Round 3:
-1 Shrieking Affliction
-1 Geth's Grimoire
-2 Mutilate
-3 Abyssal Gatekeeper
-4 Innocent Blood
-2 Massacre
-1 Pox
-4 Smallpox
-3 Bottomless Pit
-2 Swamp
+2 Cabal Stronghold
+1 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
+3 Zulaport Cutthroat
+1 Capital Punishment
+3 Liliana's Triumph
+3 Vicious Rumors
+1 Words of Waste
+2 Bite of the Black Rose
+3 Liliana's Specter
Edit Round 2:
-1 Bottomless Pit
-1 Geth's Grimoire
+1 Shrieking Affliction
+1 Empty the Pits
+1 Bonehoard
+2 Reassembling Skeleton
3 Putrid Imp
3 Rotting Rats
2 Blood Scrivener
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Sangromancer
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Netherborn Phalanx
3 Shrieking Affliction
2 Smallpox
3 Exhume
3 Waste Not
2 Victimize
1 Grimoire of the Dead
2 Mutilate
2 Tempt with Immortality
3 Gibbering Descent
3 Dark Withering
Land (23)
20 Swamp
2 Leechridden Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tuktuk the Explorer
1 Feldon of the Third Path
2 Ogre Battledriver
3 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
4 Sudden Demise
3 Tempt with Vengeance
2 Goblin Bombardment
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Outpost Siege
1 Rite of the Raging Storm
2 Warstorm Surge
2 Blasphemous Act
Lands (24)
19x Mountain
2x Myriad Landscape
2x Foundry of the Consuls
1x Kher Keep
Added 4 Sudden Demise and 2 Mizzium Mortars - Thanks Prid3!
4x Sage of Epityr
4x Omenspeaker
3x Thassa, God of the Sea
2x Prognostic Sphinx
2x Scourge of Fleets
1x Tromokratis
2x Stormtide Leviathan
1x Lorthos, the Tidemaker
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Deep-Sea Kraken
4x Quest for Ula's Temple
4x Whelming Wave
2x Quicksilver Amulet
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands (24)
15 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
3 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Fog Bank
3 Spiketail Drakeling
3 Guard Gomazoa
2 Cryptic Annelid
1 Scourge of Fleets
1 Tromokratis
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Lorthos, the Tidemaker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Deep-Sea Kraken
3 Quest for Ula's Temple
3 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 High Tide
3 Spreading Seas
3 Whelming Wave
2 Quicksilver Amulet
Lands (24)
15 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Blue deck needs an overhaul. I'll get to that one later.
Black deck is a total mess. If you're going for a Waste Not build try something closer to:
24x Swamp
Creatures (6)
4x Abyssal Gatekeeper
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
Spells (30)
2x Shrieking Affliction
4x Dark Ritual
4x Innocent Blood
4x Smallpox
4x Waste Not
4x Bottomless Pit
1x Pox
2x Massacre
2x Mutilate
2x Geth's Grimoire
1x Sorin Markov
And don't play marginal lands that don't do anything. Bojuka Bog has nothing to hit against Green/White (unless I'm missing something) and Leechridden Swamp is too slow.
Does the Blue deck have to be based around Quest for Ula's Temple or can I cut it? Also Scourge of Fleets + Cloudposts don't mix. Either you build an Engulf the Shore deck that wants all islands for cards like Vedalken Shackles and Flow of Ideas or you ignore them altogether and go Cloudposts. You can't have it both ways.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Red - All of those changes make sense, I'll work those in shortly.
Blue - I really enjoy the Quest for Ula's Temple build/theme, but if cutting it makes more sense for the deck, I'm open. The Cloudpost/Islands issue makes sense. I'd definitely just go ~24 Islands then.
Black - Is moving into Waste Not the strongest direction to take it? I have no problem with that and I agree the deck is in shambles... just curious if there are other directions to take it to instead. Again, I'm open, it's not a deck/color I'm familiar with. Bojuka Bog was mostly there to deal with Emeria, the Sky Ruin or the Exhume/Tempt with Immortality interactions. Really not needed, so cutting it out is fine by me.
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
One Emeria that will only be relevant in a small % of games isn't worth having an ETBT land and you should never play cards like Exhume over Animate Dead variants in multiplayer.
For the Black deck I like the Waste Not route but if you're looking for budget alternatives the main ones are Gray Merchant of Asphodel devotion and monoblack Control (all mass removal all the time). "Zombies" also works as a theme but that's basically just another version of the Gray Merchant archetype. An example would include:
22x Swamp
2x Unholy Grotto
Creatures (30)
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Wight of Precinct Six
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Diregraf Colossus
2x Ghoulraiser
4x Grave Defiler
2x Corpse Augur
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
6x Anything
And I'm assuming that you can't afford Relentless Dead because that card is insane otherwise. The main thing is to have 30 creatures for Grave Defiler and also to make Corpse Augurs better. For spells anything from Exsanguinate to Massacre to Grave Pact to Zombie Apocalypse will work just fine. It doesn't matter much. You can't play fewer than 30 creatures and still field Grave Defiler (I'll literally call your mother and tell on you) so if you cut back on creatures you have to use other draw engines such as Graveborn Muse or Phyrexian Arena. With 30 "hits" she draws 2 cards on average and that's what you want to make her competitive.
For MBC we have something like:
20x Swamp
4x Bojua Bog
Creatures (20)
4x Nezumi Graverobber
2x Withered Wretch
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Erebos's Titan
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Sepulchral Primordial
4x Innocent Blood
1x Shadows of the Past
4x Underworld Connections
4x Mutilate
2x Massacre
1x Crux of Fate
But use Phyrexian Arena over the connections if you can afford them. Innocent Blood can be Abyssal Gatekeeper if desired (which is relevant for Shadows of the Past) or even Merciless Executioner.
My Waste Not deck is also very powerful and relatively consistent however and should still be strongly considered.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I already have three of the four Waste Not's, so moving that direction wouldn't be too hard. Overall, I'm not too concerned with budget (if each deck prices out to white/green), I'm trading for most of these cards... it'll just take some time to actually assemble. I'll probably go the Waste Not route and see how it interacts with the giant boards Green and White tend to establish. Thanks!
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
15x Island
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Vesuva
Creatures (26)
4x Sage of Epityr
4x Omenspeaker
4x Thassa, God of the Sea
2x Prognostic Sphinx
2x Scourge of Fleets
1x Tromokratis
2x Stormtide Leviathan
1x Lorthos, the Tidemaker
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Deep-Sea Kraken
4x Quest for Ula's Temple
4x Whelming Wave
2x Quicksilver Amulet
But I don't think that Quest is a playable Magic card so I wouldn't be especially happy about it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
I don't like quest because it doesn't win games very consistently. I'm a competitive person and if a card doesn't routinely put me in a position to win then I don't care about it. Take your current set of decks for example. You said that the Blue deck virtually never wins. Either the person playing the Blue deck is always a weak player (unlikely) or the deck itself is too weak (more likely). If you don't even win when you draw your namesake card on turn 1 what good is it? Even if it doesn't win it should at least make for a close game.
When it comes to Blue there's many avenues to consider. For the purposes of this discussion I would much rather play a deck along the lines of:
14x Island
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Vesuva
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Sea Gate Oracle
2x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Mnemonic Wall
4x Diluvian Primordial
Spells (22)
4x Expedition Map
4x Mystic Remora
4x Repeal
4x Sky Diamond
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Spell Burst
4x Crush of Tentacles
The only tricky interaction is that you need to constantly Repeal and/or Crush of Tentacles your Mystic Remoras to reset their CUs. Otherwise it's a value deck that chains Crush of Tentacles into Mnemonic Wall into Crush repeat ad nauseam. Whelming Wave works too but the 8/8 helps to close games out so /shrug. Also, PLEASE READ THE ORACLE TEXT ON Mystic Remora! It affects EACH opponent and not just 1.
If you want more spells for the Wall just play Thirst for Knowledge over Sea Gate Oracle. You can even play 4x Seat of the Synod over 4x Island no questions asked.
Diluvian Primordial can be any big 6-8 drop. Play whatever you want.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
If it doesn't work out, I'll be interested to test out your other build.
Thanks again for all of the feedback. I look forward to seeing how the next round of testing works out
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
TL;DR You're not mulliganing enough. In MP you get a free mull so if your first 7 doesn't contain Quest you ship it no questions asked unless the rest of the grip is INSANE. Next 7 still no Quest? Strongly consider dropping to 6, especially if the hand is weak and clogged with uncastable fatties. By going 7-7-6 you're extremely likely to see a Quest in your opening grip.
Long version: Using hypergeometric distribution we can determine that the probability of drawing one or more copies of a specific 4-of in your opening hand to be 0.399499625744666 which we'll round to 40% for simplicity's sake. Given that you receive a free mulligan in a multiplayer setting should you fail to find that "key card" on your first look you can then take another crack at it. Once again you'll have a 40% chance of locating your "key card" as none of the variables or numbers have changed. Now let's assume that you're willing to mull down to 6 cards in a multiplayser setting if you think that it will improve your chances of succeeding. That's fair right? Well, once you mulligan a second time you get to see 6 cards + Scry 1 and assuming that your Scry isn't your "key card" then at the start of your turn you get an 8th crack at it when you draw your card. That is, on your second mulligan you get to see up to 8 cards and that calculates out to a 0.444820408707332 probability of finding your "key card." For simplicity's sake we'll use 44% so that I can't be accused of inflating numbers but it doesn't matter one way or another. All told the cumulative probability of finding the key card that you're looking for calculates out to be 0.4 + (1-0.4)(0.4) + (1-0.4)(1-0.4)(0.44)= 0.7984 or 80%. While this number is slightly inflated given that it's undeniably possible to draw hands that include your "key card" but that you cannot possibly keep it still highlights why the mulligan phase is such an important aspect of multiplayer deck-building. Insofar as you're willing to blindly mull for a card you have an extremely high probability of finding it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
I have dropped a Bottomless Pit for an additional Shrieking Affliction. Cards I'm considering adding are:
From Under the Floorboards
Nyxathid
Tombstalker
Necropolis Fiend
Empty the Pits
Thoughts?
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Don't judge the Waste Not deck until you've seen it in action in a 5 player game. If it needs tweaking just add Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins or Mindslicer to give it a bit more explosive power. It shouldn't need drastic changes at all.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Keep in mind though, in this format, the deck will only ever face two opponents. In this case, the White and Green decks. Waste Not won't get any more steam than it already has.
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Fair enough. The core of the deck should still work fine (I.Blood, Smallpox, B.Pit, etc.) and the main thing is to push the Waste Not theme hard enough to matter. If it's not quite there yet then you'll want some more mass discard to enable those big combo-style turns.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
I really don't have much input for your decks, but want to point out that all five decks should fit nicely in a deckbuilder's toolbox box, even when sleeved, as well as any tokens you should need.
Enjoy keeping them balanced.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Empty the Pits is a good one.
Bonehoard is sweet, especially if you have something like Reassembling Skeleton to pair with it.
With respect to mass removal, I'm sure that I see the problem. You generate a board full of 2/2s against opponents who have no cards in hand. Sure, a small % of the time they topdeck a Wrath and you lose. That's Magic. It's not like the Red deck has a bunch of B.Acts and plenty of ways to find them.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
2x Blasphemous Act
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
2x Mutilate
2x Massacre
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
I don't mind the Reassembling Skeleton + Bonehoard package because it's more resilient. Empty the Pits is fine as a 1-of but you can't really play multiples since it's bad early and you're rarely able to extract value from future copies. This isn't like a Blue deck full of fetchlands and cantrips that can support 4x Treasure Cruise.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
It should be decent. Pox decks have very strong early-game mass removal and most mid-game sequences involving Kalitas or Waste Not should be good enough to give the deck a real shot to win. Only having 2 opponents as opposed to 3 certainly cuts the power-level of WN but it's generally oppressive at 3+ opponents anyways so that's not exactly a bad thing.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold