a) He does nothing outside of combat. Kuon is not really in there for attacking or defending. At all. I can play him, and get him activated all in the same turn - whereas, unless someone attacks into my Phyrexian Obliterator, I get no value from him until my next turn... he may as well have been a wall. Pestilence can be activated in response to a removal spell for Kuon, and I can flip him, giving him a certain amount of "immunity" to removal. I have absolutely zero way of saving Obliterator from StP, on the other hand. Obliterator literally does nothing outside of combat, but Kuon absolutely does his thing outside of combat.
b) He gets removed immediately because he is so scary. Sure, this may apply to Kuon as well. Sure, most powerful magic cards are like this. However, this statement is tied directly to the first, in that, without getting to a combat step, all he does is make people attack elsewhere, if they don't have removal. If they have removal, you lose your creature. Even then, if they don't have removal for him, he isn't exactly causing you to run away with the game. Any number of strategies are completely unaffected by him running loose. He hits for 5, at one opponent... then what? Everyone else can attack you while your defenses are down, and you die. My point is that he causes you to be public enemy number one, and for not that great of an upside. Kuon, on the other hand, is much harder to remove (can become an enchantment at instant speed), doesn't care about attack steps, doesn't cause you to let down your defenses to actively begin winning, makes it difficult for opponents to keep any creatures in play, etc...
I'm not sure I understand your position that Kuon fits the rationale for why I don't jam the Obliterator... it doesn't remotely fit...
If you're going to vehemently defend a card you should probably know what it does...
For the record I think that both cards are about equally playable. Neither will ever be a competitive staple but both are very solid in casual, fair metas. Phyrexian Obliterator has the upside of being a card that you literally can't beat in combat and since you frequently hear people talking about metas light/devoid of removal it can certainly win games on its own. Not because beating in for 5 is relevant, but because you can sit back on Phyrexian Areas, draw 2+ cards per turn and turtle until you Gary everyone out. Obviously in removal-heavy and/or combo metas the card is stone unplayable and even in formats such as EDH you can see that he rarely makes the cut despite his stats. 40 life is obviously a lot more than 20 (i.e. the 5 power is even less relevant) but the point is that Walls don't win games.
Kuon, Ogre Ascendant is basically just a bad version of The Abyss because it's conditional. Even though the BBB cost works well with Gary at the end of the day when you cast this card you're not guaranteed to get anything other than a 2/4 for 3 which is horrifically unplayable in every format (outside of Limited obv). The upside of a 3 mana The Abyss is very high but at the same time a card like Grave Pact is still more reliable despite the increased cost. Many players, myself included, don't like taking unnecessary risks and when you play a card like Kuon you're certainly undertaking a fair amount of it. No matter how you slice it "4 creatures dying" is no easy feat (given that it can't die in the process) and the last thing that you want to do is curve out into some janky do-nothing Giant Spider of sorts. The card is very good when it works, don't get me wrong, but I don't look at it and see guaranteed value.
Obliterator is cool because he always "does his thing." Said "thing" won't always be relevant enough to be competitive but at least you know what you're getting when you cast him. He's more vulnerable than Moat but he still functions as an effective "you can't attack me the ground" defensive bastion. Kuon is a high-risk, medium-reward card because sometimes he does nothing and even when you flip him A) The Abyss doesn't win games of Magic and B) not every deck cares about the effect. In most metas the effect is powerful and certainly desirable (and some decks literally won't be able to beat it, especially if you have plenty of lifegain) but you are definitely undertaking risk when you field him.
Anyways, back to the matter at hand, I felt like sharing a new tech option that I've re-discovered in Heartless Summoning. Everyone (myself included) knows of the card but you still never see it outside of janky combo decks that loop Perilous Myr with that UB Lich (the name is escaping me). Tangent aside I realized that I was never turning creatures sideways and my cards were too crappy to profitably block with to begin with which made HS a very tempting 2 drop. Much like Cryptolith Rites the card isn't perfect because it tends to suck in multiples, sucks if you're light on action, sucks as a topdeck, etc. but on turn 2 the card is absolutely God tier and in multiplayer I've always said "go big or go home" and this is a card that "goes big" on turn 2.
Hmmm... interesting. That is a fantastic idea... Gary on T3?
Not usually. I prefer to chain Phyrexian Ragers and whatnot first to build devotion, generate bodies for Sidisi and dig for additional resources. Draining for 3 is "fine" but the deck can do better.
Heartless Summoning is kind of awkward with Fleshbag Marauder, though. The fleshbag dies to being 2/0 but then you still have to sac another dude. It's fine if you don't have any creatures, but you can't really grind people out like that.
I'm fine with playing Innocent Blood in my deck that's already brimming with mass removal. Even if you're simply jamming Garys on boards with a HS and P.Arena it's still a global drain for 5.
Personally for me, sepulchral primordial has underperformed too much for me to include it in my lists anymore. On the other hand, Erebos, God of the Dead has been god-like. Especially the lifegain prevention part.
Sorry to necro, but this thread had good discussion and it's a shame to see such a popular and frequently asked about deck fall by the wayside.
Wanted to ask PRIDE a couple of questions since he is well versed in mono black decks.
How did heartless Summoning turn out for you? What is your current deck list looking like now?
I am looking to bring a mean MBD deck BACK to the kitchen table for those times when we don't cube. Nothing infinite, but degenerate and dirty (think, the type of deck that won't win friends) is most welcome
Do you believe this decklist is still up to date? Or would any specific cards in the past few sets make any difference in the composition, especially Yahenni's Expertise?
I was thinking the same thing regarding Gonti's Machinations too
Personally, I don't think it's necessarily strong enough for this deck given the wealth of choices, but it's fairly good for the mana investment.
I was thinking the same thing regarding Gonti's Machinations too
Personally, I don't think it's necessarily strong enough for this deck given the wealth of choices, but it's fairly good for the mana investment.
It's very strong for drain versions of the deck. If you cast a Gary with one in play then you're trading 1 mana and 1 card for a 24 point life swing in a 4 player game. That's absolutely moronic.
I dunno... it's a sprint thing, but my multiplayer games are marathons.
Agreed. It's not a card that I personally play either in this archetype. I'd rather have Unholy Grotto and play for the long game than Lake of the Dead and play for the short game.
I'm gonna be testing out Underworld Connections instead of Phyrexian Arena, simply to see if it helps to get counters on these 1-cmc's quicker by using it on opponents' turns.
Eh it's 0 mana vs 1 mana so Arena is too much better to omit if you own them. If you're using your Arenas in other decks or don't own them or blah blah blah then sure, go with Connections, but if you legit own Arenas and can field them in the deck then I would always include them over Connections. It's a monumental difference in strength in my experience, especially in draws where you draw multiples (which is virtually every game).
I'm not suggesting otherwise fellaz. I own both UC & PA, just thinking about how UC interacts with GM.
I know, I'm just saying that all such interactions are more cute than good. Arena is in a league of its own and nothing holds a candle to it even when certain synergies are in play.
What do you all think about a card like Archfiend of Depravity? I know it seems kind of marginal, but it can help fuel cards like Wight of Precinct Six and hose token decks while leaving the board mostly clear for your guys to get through. Plus its a decent sized body at 5/4 to use as a beat stick. Usually my black decks use 2 Exsanguinate in place of cards like the Archfiend which combos nicely with Nykthos.
Here's the list I'm sort of testing at the moment:
It's an extremely powerful card in removal-light + midrange metas. The biggest "problem" with these kinds of cards is that players who can kill them often must because the alternative is to have half of their board bite the dust which is never a good place to be. It's also nigh worthless vs Combo, Stax, Control and even Stax so you really don't want to field it unless your meta is creature-heavy. That being said the effect is extremely powerful and left unchecked it'll wreck havoc on anyone trying to reach a critical mass of bodies.
FWIW I would play Capital Punishment over Crux of Fate since you typically want to preserve your own threats and it has actual game vs Control decks and whatnot since you can always force at least 1 discard. One-sided board clears also stack well and since the deck already has Marauders + Archfiends you're generally not worried about people having huge boards but small hands or whatever.
Is Necropotence on the table at all? Your list does have Bargain and Potence is sweet in Gary decks.
If you're going to vehemently defend a card you should probably know what it does...
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
For the record I think that both cards are about equally playable. Neither will ever be a competitive staple but both are very solid in casual, fair metas. Phyrexian Obliterator has the upside of being a card that you literally can't beat in combat and since you frequently hear people talking about metas light/devoid of removal it can certainly win games on its own. Not because beating in for 5 is relevant, but because you can sit back on Phyrexian Areas, draw 2+ cards per turn and turtle until you Gary everyone out. Obviously in removal-heavy and/or combo metas the card is stone unplayable and even in formats such as EDH you can see that he rarely makes the cut despite his stats. 40 life is obviously a lot more than 20 (i.e. the 5 power is even less relevant) but the point is that Walls don't win games.
Kuon, Ogre Ascendant is basically just a bad version of The Abyss because it's conditional. Even though the BBB cost works well with Gary at the end of the day when you cast this card you're not guaranteed to get anything other than a 2/4 for 3 which is horrifically unplayable in every format (outside of Limited obv). The upside of a 3 mana The Abyss is very high but at the same time a card like Grave Pact is still more reliable despite the increased cost. Many players, myself included, don't like taking unnecessary risks and when you play a card like Kuon you're certainly undertaking a fair amount of it. No matter how you slice it "4 creatures dying" is no easy feat (given that it can't die in the process) and the last thing that you want to do is curve out into some janky do-nothing Giant Spider of sorts. The card is very good when it works, don't get me wrong, but I don't look at it and see guaranteed value.
Obliterator is cool because he always "does his thing." Said "thing" won't always be relevant enough to be competitive but at least you know what you're getting when you cast him. He's more vulnerable than Moat but he still functions as an effective "you can't attack me the ground" defensive bastion. Kuon is a high-risk, medium-reward card because sometimes he does nothing and even when you flip him A) The Abyss doesn't win games of Magic and B) not every deck cares about the effect. In most metas the effect is powerful and certainly desirable (and some decks literally won't be able to beat it, especially if you have plenty of lifegain) but you are definitely undertaking risk when you field him.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
You're not incorrect in your analysis, I just find your mistake about the cards functionality funny, in context.
Lol... good beats.
I agree with the assessment as well.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Anyways, no big breakthroughs with the thing just yet BUT the card is the winning-est 2 drop that I've tested thusfar and while Cockatrice testing is always suspect (you never know who you're going to play with) a global Urza's Incubator is a big game when even your removal spells are creatures. I've been testing various Phyrexian Rager and Phyrexian Gargantua builds for obvious reasons and Sidisi, Undead Vizier (and/or Rune-Scarred Demon) is nuts with the thing.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Havengul Lich is the loop enabler, btw.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Not usually. I prefer to chain Phyrexian Ragers and whatnot first to build devotion, generate bodies for Sidisi and dig for additional resources. Draining for 3 is "fine" but the deck can do better.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm fine with playing Innocent Blood in my deck that's already brimming with mass removal. Even if you're simply jamming Garys on boards with a HS and P.Arena it's still a global drain for 5.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Wanted to ask PRIDE a couple of questions since he is well versed in mono black decks.
How did heartless Summoning turn out for you? What is your current deck list looking like now?
I am looking to bring a mean MBD deck BACK to the kitchen table for those times when we don't cube. Nothing infinite, but degenerate and dirty (think, the type of deck that won't win friends) is most welcome
Waste Not and Dark Deal is pretty brutal as a starting area for Discard based strategies.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
MBD = Mono Black Devotion.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Personally, I don't think it's necessarily strong enough for this deck given the wealth of choices, but it's fairly good for the mana investment.
It's very strong for drain versions of the deck. If you cast a Gary with one in play then you're trading 1 mana and 1 card for a 24 point life swing in a 4 player game. That's absolutely moronic.
A deck that I'm testing right now is:
25x Swamp
Creatures (20)
4x Cuombajj Witches
4x Gifted Aetherborn
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Bloodchief Ascension
4x Gonti's Machinations
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
4x Pestilence
2x Massacre
Because I want to pair Pestilence with Gonti's Machinations.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
With all of those lifelink creatures, lashwrithe/nightmare lash seem like they may be good.
I'm curious why the recent MBD lists no longer include Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Was the mana unnecessary or is it for budget considerations?
It's also fantastic with Massacre.
I just assume that people who own special lands will play them regardless. Nykthos, Cabal Coffers, Volrath's Stronghold, Unholy Grotto, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and more are all fantastic additions.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Yep.
Lake of the Dead is another that can fit this archetype, among many others.
RE: Gonti's Machinations
I think you're right to pop it into a deck with Bloodchief Ascension & Pestilence.
I'm gonna be testing out Underworld Connections instead of Phyrexian Arena, simply to see if it helps to get counters on these 1-cmc's quicker by using it on opponents' turns.
Agreed. It's not a card that I personally play either in this archetype. I'd rather have Unholy Grotto and play for the long game than Lake of the Dead and play for the short game.
Eh it's 0 mana vs 1 mana so Arena is too much better to omit if you own them. If you're using your Arenas in other decks or don't own them or blah blah blah then sure, go with Connections, but if you legit own Arenas and can field them in the deck then I would always include them over Connections. It's a monumental difference in strength in my experience, especially in draws where you draw multiples (which is virtually every game).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I know, I'm just saying that all such interactions are more cute than good. Arena is in a league of its own and nothing holds a candle to it even when certain synergies are in play.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Here's the list I'm sort of testing at the moment:
Creatures (19)
4x Wight of Precinct Six
4x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Crypt Ghast
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Graveborn Muse
2x Archfiend of Depravity
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2x Massacre
4x Dark Ritual
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
3x Phyrexian Arena
1x Grave Pact
1x No Mercy
2x Pestilence
2x Crux of Fate
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
19x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold
It's an extremely powerful card in removal-light + midrange metas. The biggest "problem" with these kinds of cards is that players who can kill them often must because the alternative is to have half of their board bite the dust which is never a good place to be. It's also nigh worthless vs Combo, Stax, Control and even Stax so you really don't want to field it unless your meta is creature-heavy. That being said the effect is extremely powerful and left unchecked it'll wreck havoc on anyone trying to reach a critical mass of bodies.
FWIW I would play Capital Punishment over Crux of Fate since you typically want to preserve your own threats and it has actual game vs Control decks and whatnot since you can always force at least 1 discard. One-sided board clears also stack well and since the deck already has Marauders + Archfiends you're generally not worried about people having huge boards but small hands or whatever.
Is Necropotence on the table at all? Your list does have Bargain and Potence is sweet in Gary decks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold