You know Wizards is really tight with those numbers. Besides, my claim is not outlandish enough for the burden of proof to be upon me.
So it's my job to defend your claim then? You're the one saying "they're literally doing X" despite the fact that you have no concrete evidence of anyone doing anything. You chose numbers to suit your own personal needs then, when pressured for evidence, absolved yourself of any personal responsibility. If you want to one-up me to earn yourself some sweet sweet Internet points that's totally fine but don't expect me to admit defeat in the face of actual 0 proof. If you can prove that I'm an idiot then so be it but I'm not going to to do it for you :P. Sorry but the person making the baseless claims is, in fact, the one who has to defend them if he then wants them to be taken seriously.
Why, what's the statute of limitations on requesting proof for an Internet forum post?
Anyways, no idea what you're still trying to prove at this point. You seem to be under some grandiose illusion that you can squeak out a technical victory if you constantly shift the focus back to me but let me assure you that you're still the one who has to defend his statements. If you can show us something, anything, that could act as evidence to support your numbers then you got me. You bested the Champ. I know how much that means to you so here's your shot at glory. Otherwise I'm done with this conversation because if you're allowed to make baseless claims, provide no evidence and then shift the burden of proof on everyone else then there's literally no point in having this discussion with you. At that point my counter-argument could easily be that they printed 1 FoW for every 80 trillion players so there's significantly less than a million being printed in EM. As long as I'm not required to defend my claims nor refute yours then this is real easy!
I don't see why it matters how many (or few) Force of Wills they are printing. Whatever the number is, it will not be enough to match demand, and lower the price for any length of time. That's the bottom line. It will still not be remotely a budget friendly card, and will not be attainable for most casual players.
If anyone has to defend any statements, let's start with you. You were the first to make an undefended claim about the number of Force of Wills printed.
I purposely (and quite obviously) made a generic + hyperbolic statement as I obviously have absolutely no idea how many FoWs that they're printing (nor do I care to know that number). We were having a nice, generic discussion about Magic prices in general at which point you showed up and decided that you wanted to be "right" and for me to be "wrong." You saw your chance to "make a fool of me" as it were, took my statement out of context and tried to spin it in a way that undermined my credibility. The only reason that number still matters is because you keep coming back to it in some vein attempt to defend the notion that "there're literally printing a million FoWs" even though I "claimed" that they weren't. No one here actually cares but you're so obsessed with one-upping me that you still can't let this go because you think that you can steal a technical victory. You think that as long as you keep throwing mud at me I'll sink below your level at which point you'll appear to be the victor. The nice thing for me is that I'm not trying to prove anything, defend anything, or claim anything. If you want to challenge my "claims," go for it. I'm not making any, I defend nothing, I'm not trying to prove anything. I have no relevant information/proof to make any definitive statements about EM and I can only make educated assumptions based on the small amount of information that Wizards has provided for us. You can throw this back to me all you want but it's not going to work because ultimately you're never going to "win" unless you can prove that you're right. Otherwise you're just some guy pulling random numbers out of his butt and pushing them to the world as stone-cold facts. They're not. Since I don't care about trying to beat you I'm certainly not going to waste any time trying to prove anything one way or another. You can either keep throwing this back at me in a childish attempt to get attention or you can actually bring some concrete facts to the table that proves that you're not fabricating your facts. You're the instigator, you're the one who's trying to make definitive claims, you're the one who wants to be right. Either come to the table with proof or forget about trying to secure your technical victory.
Guys, guys... I think we have beaten this dead horse quite long enough. None of this is constructive or instructive, and it is getting really petty.
I'm sure we can all agree that Wizards hasn't shown either the desire or ability to greatly reduce the price of format staples via reprints... that was really the initial point... who cares about this petty bantering about the exact numbers of cards they will print.
Except that's not even close to reality. The print run for Eternal Masters is ridiculously small and cards like FoW and Wasteland are all going to be printed at rare/mythic. Seriously, call your local LGS and ask them how many boxes of EM that they'll receive.
Wow! Not one mention of the word "proof." Let's check my next quote, surely my "immediate demand for proof" will become apparent by my second reply right?
And demand will still outweigh supply by many orders of magnitude.
Huh... still no demand for proof... That's weird... It's... it's almost like I didn't care at all but you kept pushing that "million" as if it were a fact. Could it... could it be that I only asked for proof when you insisted that your number was objectively accurate? Is that remotely possible? No! No that can't be... can it?
I call you out on your hypocrisy and you admit your statement was baseless hyperbole in an attempt to shift the focus away.
What hypocrisy? I stated that EM is going to have an extremely small print run. That's objectively true. Relative to most modern Magic sets Wizards has stated that EM will be printed in short supply. So clearly I'm not hypocritical about that. Or is this about the supply/demand comment? Are we to believe that supply will outweigh demand for cards like FOW and Wasteland when EM hits? Is that where I dun goofed? Going to guess no on that one too. So what else could it be? Hmm, let's see... I also stated that printing a million FoWs and Wastelands, and I quote, "isn't necessarily a good thing for the game in the long run." That was my verbatim statement. Even though it was never my intention I even covered my butt with the "isn't necessarily" clause to avoid committing myself to anything. Go me!
So what is it? How am I a hypocrite? Please help me out here because I don't even know what I'm shifting the focus away from as I have no idea what I'm wrong/hypocritical about. Explain to me how I'm objectively in the wrong and that you're objectively in the right would you? Because from where I'm sitting this entire thing was started by you even though you're the only one trying to prove anything.
Returning to the topic at hand, since there's no mention about the other planeswalker in the set, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, I wanted to ask about her effectiveness for green token strategies. She's a repeatable token producer and anthem effect, so I'd think she was an okay consideration. Is that not the case?
In any case, I agree that OGW felt extremely underwhelming. I don't think I've been as unenthusiastic about a set since I started playing in Innistrad.
Returning to the topic at hand, since there's no mention about the other planeswalker in the set, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, I wanted to ask about her effectiveness for green token strategies. She's a repeatable token producer and anthem effect, so I'd think she was an okay consideration. Is that not the case?
While Nissa isn't an inherently bad card per say my personal issue with her is that she's not very good either. When I'm building a token deck I typically start with a bit of ramp, jam as many powerful token producers as a I possibly can and then top the deck off with powerful support spells. These tends to be things like Intangible Virtue, Aura Shards, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Cathars' Crusade, Shamanic Revelation, Doubling Season and Hour of Reckoning. That's not a comprehensive list or anything but you get the idea. Anyways, the problem that I have is a card like Nissa never makes the final cut of a deck because I don't want a card that does 2 jobs poorly when I can run specialized "experts." While it's true that you won't always draw the perfect mix of action and support (and that's where a card like Nissa pulls her weight) from a purely "I want to win" perspective it's still the stronger gameplan overall in my experience since baseline power-level tends to be crucial to a deck's success. YMMV and every meta is different but I personally cannot stand casting a 'Walker only to have it die to a random evasive beater, a regular attacker if the board isn't stable enough to thwart it, a burn spell, a removal spell, anything. All things being equal people will usually target 'Walkers over everything else (which makes perfect sense) and since neither of her modes are exceptionally powerful even if you activate them multiple times I dislike relying on these types of threats. She has Awakening Zone beat but an 0/1 really isn't much and come lategame it may as well be nothing. Ideally you can jam her as a pump spell by then but +1/+1 a turn is hardly back-breaking whereas cards like Beastmaster Ascension, Collective Blessing and Craterhoof Behemoth are all savage beatings. Come turn 6 if you're staring at an empty board then Nissa is clearly superior to these types of finishers but is she realistically going to pull you out of your bind? Probably not.
And demand will still outweigh supply by many orders of magnitude.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Proof of your numbers?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So it's my job to defend your claim then? You're the one saying "they're literally doing X" despite the fact that you have no concrete evidence of anyone doing anything. You chose numbers to suit your own personal needs then, when pressured for evidence, absolved yourself of any personal responsibility. If you want to one-up me to earn yourself some sweet sweet Internet points that's totally fine but don't expect me to admit defeat in the face of actual 0 proof. If you can prove that I'm an idiot then so be it but I'm not going to to do it for you :P. Sorry but the person making the baseless claims is, in fact, the one who has to defend them if he then wants them to be taken seriously.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Why, what's the statute of limitations on requesting proof for an Internet forum post?
Anyways, no idea what you're still trying to prove at this point. You seem to be under some grandiose illusion that you can squeak out a technical victory if you constantly shift the focus back to me but let me assure you that you're still the one who has to defend his statements. If you can show us something, anything, that could act as evidence to support your numbers then you got me. You bested the Champ. I know how much that means to you so here's your shot at glory. Otherwise I'm done with this conversation because if you're allowed to make baseless claims, provide no evidence and then shift the burden of proof on everyone else then there's literally no point in having this discussion with you. At that point my counter-argument could easily be that they printed 1 FoW for every 80 trillion players so there's significantly less than a million being printed in EM. As long as I'm not required to defend my claims nor refute yours then this is real easy!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
I purposely (and quite obviously) made a generic + hyperbolic statement as I obviously have absolutely no idea how many FoWs that they're printing (nor do I care to know that number). We were having a nice, generic discussion about Magic prices in general at which point you showed up and decided that you wanted to be "right" and for me to be "wrong." You saw your chance to "make a fool of me" as it were, took my statement out of context and tried to spin it in a way that undermined my credibility. The only reason that number still matters is because you keep coming back to it in some vein attempt to defend the notion that "there're literally printing a million FoWs" even though I "claimed" that they weren't. No one here actually cares but you're so obsessed with one-upping me that you still can't let this go because you think that you can steal a technical victory. You think that as long as you keep throwing mud at me I'll sink below your level at which point you'll appear to be the victor. The nice thing for me is that I'm not trying to prove anything, defend anything, or claim anything. If you want to challenge my "claims," go for it. I'm not making any, I defend nothing, I'm not trying to prove anything. I have no relevant information/proof to make any definitive statements about EM and I can only make educated assumptions based on the small amount of information that Wizards has provided for us. You can throw this back to me all you want but it's not going to work because ultimately you're never going to "win" unless you can prove that you're right. Otherwise you're just some guy pulling random numbers out of his butt and pushing them to the world as stone-cold facts. They're not. Since I don't care about trying to beat you I'm certainly not going to waste any time trying to prove anything one way or another. You can either keep throwing this back at me in a childish attempt to get attention or you can actually bring some concrete facts to the table that proves that you're not fabricating your facts. You're the instigator, you're the one who's trying to make definitive claims, you're the one who wants to be right. Either come to the table with proof or forget about trying to secure your technical victory.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm sure we can all agree that Wizards hasn't shown either the desire or ability to greatly reduce the price of format staples via reprints... that was really the initial point... who cares about this petty bantering about the exact numbers of cards they will print.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Oh so you finally proof of this true fact? Or are you still pushing that "truth" to me despite having absolutely no proof to suggest that it is?
I did? Are you sure? Why, let's check and see what I actually said shall we?
Wow! Not one mention of the word "proof." Let's check my next quote, surely my "immediate demand for proof" will become apparent by my second reply right?
Huh... still no demand for proof... That's weird... It's... it's almost like I didn't care at all but you kept pushing that "million" as if it were a fact. Could it... could it be that I only asked for proof when you insisted that your number was objectively accurate? Is that remotely possible? No! No that can't be... can it?
What hypocrisy? I stated that EM is going to have an extremely small print run. That's objectively true. Relative to most modern Magic sets Wizards has stated that EM will be printed in short supply. So clearly I'm not hypocritical about that. Or is this about the supply/demand comment? Are we to believe that supply will outweigh demand for cards like FOW and Wasteland when EM hits? Is that where I dun goofed? Going to guess no on that one too. So what else could it be? Hmm, let's see... I also stated that printing a million FoWs and Wastelands, and I quote, "isn't necessarily a good thing for the game in the long run." That was my verbatim statement. Even though it was never my intention I even covered my butt with the "isn't necessarily" clause to avoid committing myself to anything. Go me!
So what is it? How am I a hypocrite? Please help me out here because I don't even know what I'm shifting the focus away from as I have no idea what I'm wrong/hypocritical about. Explain to me how I'm objectively in the wrong and that you're objectively in the right would you? Because from where I'm sitting this entire thing was started by you even though you're the only one trying to prove anything.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
In any case, I agree that OGW felt extremely underwhelming. I don't think I've been as unenthusiastic about a set since I started playing in Innistrad.
While Nissa isn't an inherently bad card per say my personal issue with her is that she's not very good either. When I'm building a token deck I typically start with a bit of ramp, jam as many powerful token producers as a I possibly can and then top the deck off with powerful support spells. These tends to be things like Intangible Virtue, Aura Shards, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Cathars' Crusade, Shamanic Revelation, Doubling Season and Hour of Reckoning. That's not a comprehensive list or anything but you get the idea. Anyways, the problem that I have is a card like Nissa never makes the final cut of a deck because I don't want a card that does 2 jobs poorly when I can run specialized "experts." While it's true that you won't always draw the perfect mix of action and support (and that's where a card like Nissa pulls her weight) from a purely "I want to win" perspective it's still the stronger gameplan overall in my experience since baseline power-level tends to be crucial to a deck's success. YMMV and every meta is different but I personally cannot stand casting a 'Walker only to have it die to a random evasive beater, a regular attacker if the board isn't stable enough to thwart it, a burn spell, a removal spell, anything. All things being equal people will usually target 'Walkers over everything else (which makes perfect sense) and since neither of her modes are exceptionally powerful even if you activate them multiple times I dislike relying on these types of threats. She has Awakening Zone beat but an 0/1 really isn't much and come lategame it may as well be nothing. Ideally you can jam her as a pump spell by then but +1/+1 a turn is hardly back-breaking whereas cards like Beastmaster Ascension, Collective Blessing and Craterhoof Behemoth are all savage beatings. Come turn 6 if you're staring at an empty board then Nissa is clearly superior to these types of finishers but is she realistically going to pull you out of your bind? Probably not.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold