So I have been toying with the idea of building a mill deck that works in multiplayer. Nothing seemed to work with more than one opponent until I found the interaction between Altar of the Brood and Undead Alchemist. The interaction is the only one I found that works better with multiplayer since more mill means more chances of hitting creatures for Undead Alchemist.
The deck tries to get out as many Altar of the Broods as possible using Trinket Mage and Reshape and then once Undead Alchemist comes down, Ornithopters and Memnites provide additional triggers just in case everyone reveals a noncreature card at the same time.
The ornithopters and memnites also help provide targets for Reshape and Perilous Research although the main target for those two spells is Ichor Wellspring which provides card draw alongside Perilous Research and Serum Visions.
The fetchlands would be a great addition actually. Could also give me a shuffle if Halimar Depths doesn't reveal anything worthwhile.
Also hadn't considered actually attacking with the Undead Alchemist and just relying on his second ability triggering off of the Altar of the Brood but would be worthwhile to have 4 unblockable mill.
What do you think of 4 Tormod's Crypt instead of the 4 Ornithopter? Considering them to deal with graveyard shenanigans.
No, it's not. 56 of your cards have absolutely no impact on the game. They don't block well, they don't deal damage, they don't kill creatures, they don't counter spells, nothing. The other 4, the Alchemists, will die to removal. Maybe not in game 1, probably by game 2, but by games 3+ unless your opponents are extremely weak/new to the game there's no possible way for you to continue pulling the wool over their eyes. Moreover, you will never win a game in which you don't see an Alchemist in the top 20 cards of your deck. Your list has no tutors for the Alchemist, no good blockers, no removal, nothing. Doing nothing for 8-13 turns isn't a winning line in any setting which means that roughly 20% of the time (18.7414% to be exact) you will automatically lose the game. I'd be willing to wager that another 30% your first (and likely second) Alchemist will die to removal which says to me that roughly 50% of the time you won't even get to play Magic. This doesn't mean that you'll win the other 50%, far from it, all it says that every other game is going to be a total write-off. I can guarantee you that this type of deck will be absolutely miserable to play in that sense since far more often than not you'll lose without ever casting a meaningful spell. I could obviously be overestimating your metagame but I need to stress that your deck literally only has 4 cards with relevant text (all of which die to any removal spell from any opponent) so I don't think that I'm overstepping my bounds by making some assumptions. Your deck just plain needs many more cards that actually matter. Period.
When I played a similar deck myself I had Altars and Mesmeric Orbs and the rest of my deck was cards like Wight of Precinct Six, Nighthowler, Mortivore, Bonehoard, Consuming Aberration, etc. in addition to the Alchemists. I didn't waste much time tutoring for my mill-i-facts but rather used that opportunity to jam some threats into play. For draw spells I used things like Rhystic Study and Spyhon Mind that scaled well into a multiplayer setting but I mostly focused on playing threats and mill-i-facts that I could "fire and forget" so I didn't have to waste time and deck slots on tutors and cantrips and such. Threat density matters when you're playing with cards that don't impact the board in any way, shape or form so you can't afford to skimp on the action spells in my experience. They need to come early and often less you fall way too far behind early on.
For the record I think that adding cards like Rogue's Passage to your deck is mostly a waste of time. I could see myself playing 1x Rogue's Passage "just in case" but I would never add Whispersilk Cloak to my lists. It doesn't actually protect you from removal since your opponents can respond to the Equip trigger to kill the creature regardless. Even if they don't, whatever, hitting someone to mill them for 4 is mostly pointless in my mind. I'm not going to dedicate a card to sometimes pull that off. All it does is make you that much more vulnerable to removal (as if things weren't already bad enough in that department). Cloak is obviously decent when it works, the problem is that it usually won't. You still have to draw an Alchemist and have it dodge removal so it's very win-more in that sense. If a card is only relevant when everything is going your way then it's probably not great overall.
I apologize if I'm being too blunt but I don't want to see you invest and more energy and time into a project that I can't possibly envision being successful. The deck is fundamentally flawed as I personally don't believe that you can play a list that only contains 4 relevant threats (all which die to any removal spell from any opponent). That's a recipe for failure in my experience so I don't want you to waste any more time/effort/energy/money than you need to on a doomed idea. Something drastic needs to change with the deck before you should consider fielding it in a real-world setting IMO.
I know what you mean. Those are exactly my concerns, but the only way I can see this deck working is if I mill everyone on the spot as soon as Undead Alchemist comes down. By my calculation let's say that on average 35% of a player's deck will be creatures. And let's say that I have 3 Altar of the Broods out. This will mean that on average I will fail to find a land in one mill 2% of the time.
1-65%^3 = ~27.5% chance of not finding a land after everyone mills once (Assuming 3 other players). 1-27.5%^3 = ~2% chance of not finding a land after everyone mills 3 times (Assuming 3 altars).
It's a combo in the same way that Relentless Rats and Thrumming Stone is a combo. I mean it's supposed to be a janky deck as opposed to a quality deck make no mistake. Just not sure if my calculations are right. It's a pretty cheap deck too, so there's little downside in putting it together.
I like your idea of tutors and counter spells though. A few Pact of Negations would make sense to block instant speed removal.
I tried to make a budget altar of the brood deck using mishra, artificer prodigy and lots of artifacts. It ended up having some effectiveness and I had fun with blood clock but the deck was just too vulnerable to removal. All the opponents had to do was kill mishra and it was just over. I remember thinking the deck soooooo needed spellskite to protect things but my deck was budget (very very budget. Only gave myself $10 using tcg player low including lands) so that was out and I couldn't find anything else to replace it.
Mishra is definitely a fun card but I couldn't get it to work well enough for my standards, at least not on my budget.
I was the guy playing the relentless rats deck back during mirrodin and kamigawa blocks. Yes, cranial extraction was used on me. No, I didn't win much. Yes, I do have a relentless rats edh deck. No, it doesn't win much either...
Also, what is your meta like? Is there anything else we should keep in mind while remodeling your janky combo into a doom cannon.
Cloudstone Curio is actually a really good idea. Every zombie means I can return a thopter or something to my hand. Too bad it's nonartifact though. Otherwise it would be a proper infinite combo.
Also our meta is very light on removal and ways to disrupt your opponent. That's why I thought this would work. A friend of mine keeps winning with his Near-Death Experience deck because even after everyone plays their turn nobody can destroy the enchantment or counter it to begin with. Definitely the meta for janky decks.
What I would recommend is this combo Myr Retriever Heartless SummoningAltar of the Brood You could also add Grinding Station to help the combo, and add Dark Ritual for a turn-one win. I realize this is very different than what the original deck was, and that most of these people are long inactive, but if anyone sees this, I hope it helps.
The deck tries to get out as many Altar of the Broods as possible using Trinket Mage and Reshape and then once Undead Alchemist comes down, Ornithopters and Memnites provide additional triggers just in case everyone reveals a noncreature card at the same time.
The ornithopters and memnites also help provide targets for Reshape and Perilous Research although the main target for those two spells is Ichor Wellspring which provides card draw alongside Perilous Research and Serum Visions.
Any help or card suggestions would be great.
In general is the deck even viable?
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
3 Trinket Mage
4 Undead Alchemist
4 Perilous Research
4 Serum Visions
4 Reshape
Artifacts
4 Altar of the Brood
3 Profane Memento
4 Ichor Wellspring
18 Island
4 Halimar Depths
I think I'd actually consider running Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds here too... Altar of the Brood triggers on land drops too, so cracking a fetch gives you two triggers for the turn.
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Also hadn't considered actually attacking with the Undead Alchemist and just relying on his second ability triggering off of the Altar of the Brood but would be worthwhile to have 4 unblockable mill.
What do you think of 4 Tormod's Crypt instead of the 4 Ornithopter? Considering them to deal with graveyard shenanigans.
No, it's not. 56 of your cards have absolutely no impact on the game. They don't block well, they don't deal damage, they don't kill creatures, they don't counter spells, nothing. The other 4, the Alchemists, will die to removal. Maybe not in game 1, probably by game 2, but by games 3+ unless your opponents are extremely weak/new to the game there's no possible way for you to continue pulling the wool over their eyes. Moreover, you will never win a game in which you don't see an Alchemist in the top 20 cards of your deck. Your list has no tutors for the Alchemist, no good blockers, no removal, nothing. Doing nothing for 8-13 turns isn't a winning line in any setting which means that roughly 20% of the time (18.7414% to be exact) you will automatically lose the game. I'd be willing to wager that another 30% your first (and likely second) Alchemist will die to removal which says to me that roughly 50% of the time you won't even get to play Magic. This doesn't mean that you'll win the other 50%, far from it, all it says that every other game is going to be a total write-off. I can guarantee you that this type of deck will be absolutely miserable to play in that sense since far more often than not you'll lose without ever casting a meaningful spell. I could obviously be overestimating your metagame but I need to stress that your deck literally only has 4 cards with relevant text (all of which die to any removal spell from any opponent) so I don't think that I'm overstepping my bounds by making some assumptions. Your deck just plain needs many more cards that actually matter. Period.
When I played a similar deck myself I had Altars and Mesmeric Orbs and the rest of my deck was cards like Wight of Precinct Six, Nighthowler, Mortivore, Bonehoard, Consuming Aberration, etc. in addition to the Alchemists. I didn't waste much time tutoring for my mill-i-facts but rather used that opportunity to jam some threats into play. For draw spells I used things like Rhystic Study and Spyhon Mind that scaled well into a multiplayer setting but I mostly focused on playing threats and mill-i-facts that I could "fire and forget" so I didn't have to waste time and deck slots on tutors and cantrips and such. Threat density matters when you're playing with cards that don't impact the board in any way, shape or form so you can't afford to skimp on the action spells in my experience. They need to come early and often less you fall way too far behind early on.
For the record I think that adding cards like Rogue's Passage to your deck is mostly a waste of time. I could see myself playing 1x Rogue's Passage "just in case" but I would never add Whispersilk Cloak to my lists. It doesn't actually protect you from removal since your opponents can respond to the Equip trigger to kill the creature regardless. Even if they don't, whatever, hitting someone to mill them for 4 is mostly pointless in my mind. I'm not going to dedicate a card to sometimes pull that off. All it does is make you that much more vulnerable to removal (as if things weren't already bad enough in that department). Cloak is obviously decent when it works, the problem is that it usually won't. You still have to draw an Alchemist and have it dodge removal so it's very win-more in that sense. If a card is only relevant when everything is going your way then it's probably not great overall.
I apologize if I'm being too blunt but I don't want to see you invest and more energy and time into a project that I can't possibly envision being successful. The deck is fundamentally flawed as I personally don't believe that you can play a list that only contains 4 relevant threats (all which die to any removal spell from any opponent). That's a recipe for failure in my experience so I don't want you to waste any more time/effort/energy/money than you need to on a doomed idea. Something drastic needs to change with the deck before you should consider fielding it in a real-world setting IMO.
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1-65%^3 = ~27.5% chance of not finding a land after everyone mills once (Assuming 3 other players). 1-27.5%^3 = ~2% chance of not finding a land after everyone mills 3 times (Assuming 3 altars).
It's a combo in the same way that Relentless Rats and Thrumming Stone is a combo. I mean it's supposed to be a janky deck as opposed to a quality deck make no mistake. Just not sure if my calculations are right. It's a pretty cheap deck too, so there's little downside in putting it together.
I like your idea of tutors and counter spells though. A few Pact of Negations would make sense to block instant speed removal.
Hatching Plans could do something with perilous research, but it is probably too cute of an interaction without other outlets/synergies.
Overall though, I think Cz is right that mesmeric orb is the best option if anything.
For the record I don't think (and never implied) that removing [insert random cards] for Mesmeric Orb will actually improve this deck's overall win %.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Soul crushing.... haha
Anyways, does it have to be a Altar of the Brood and Undead Alchemist combo deck. Or can we just stick to the mill theme for the deck. Top of my head: Crumbling Sanctuary works quite well with Phyrexian Processor. It's your choice, the Altar has potential I think.
Jon Finkel is the creator of the sanctuary/processor combo. His decklist is HERE: https://www.wizards.com/magic/expert/wcd2000/wcd2000_pcd_finkel.asp
Needs to be reworked, but it is a good start.
Ideas for Altar:
infinite blink - Animate Dead + Worldgorger Dragon (DOES NOT WORK here)
infinite 0 cost critters - Memnite/Ornithopter/Kobolds of Kher Keep + Cloudstone Curio or Multani's Presence + Chalice of the Void
Also, what is your meta like? Is there anything else we should keep in mind while remodeling your janky combo into a doom cannon.
Mishra is definitely a fun card but I couldn't get it to work well enough for my standards, at least not on my budget.
This plan is so cute, but there are more interactions with Ichor Wellspring. I can sac it to Reshape on top of the Perilous Research.
Cloudstone Curio is actually a really good idea. Every zombie means I can return a thopter or something to my hand. Too bad it's nonartifact though. Otherwise it would be a proper infinite combo.
Also our meta is very light on removal and ways to disrupt your opponent. That's why I thought this would work. A friend of mine keeps winning with his Near-Death Experience deck because even after everyone plays their turn nobody can destroy the enchantment or counter it to begin with. Definitely the meta for janky decks.