Zulaport Cutthroat was a highly debated card in the various set reviews/discussions that emerged with BfZ but having actually played with the card let me assure you that it's heinously broken. As far as I'm concerned it's Gray Merchant of Asphodel all over again and today I'm going to toss out a few builds that I've piloting to insane success.
Before I get to the final builds I want to start by highlighting Grim Haruspex, Dark Prophecy and Smothering Abomination. When I was originally building my lists I want typically defaulting to Deathreap Ritual until it dawned on me that Grim Haruspex was vastly outperforming it each and very time. When I moved away from "single shot" draw spells effects that couldn't chain/combo together and more towards ones that worked with Zulaport Cutthroat it became immediately clear that this was the way to go. Keep that in mind when you read these lists because I'm not going to explain why none of them feature Deathreap Ritual any longer.
The first list that I started testing looked something like:
This type of strategy proved to be quite degenerate and I can assure that Gray Merchant had nothing to do with it. The combination of Dark Prophecy style card draw with free sac outlets and mass recursion proved to be immensely powerful and I was routinely drawing my entire deck, discarding throngs of threats to hand size only to cast Living Death style cards to end games on the spot. Moreover, I could lean on cards like Shadows of the Past and Viscera Seer in combination with threats such as Ophiomancer and Sengir Autocrat to get "infinite looks" for spells that matter. Once I hit 5 lands I was almost always able to "stop" at which point I could chain into nothing but Gray Merchant/Living Deaths/Zulaports/draw engines.
Short after I began experiment with decks such as:
I was mostly curious how strong a $20.00 deck could be and I have to say that I was blown away. Zulaport Cutthroat's ability to dome everyone for 20 is astounding and even versions of the deck that didn't include Blood Artist were easily clearing tables. I'll throw Life // Death's name out there since I was often using it in my Green decks as A) recursion and B) an easy combo-kill card when I had 1-2 Zulaports out since turning all of your lands into dudes is quite strong.
Anyways, the one thing that became clear to me no matter how many different takes I tried was that the card is absolutely bat***** insane. To anyone who was in the "it's worse than Blood Artist" camp let me assure you that it's extremely capable of winning the game on its own in a completely non-interactive fashion. If you don't have some yet I strongly encourage that you acquire some and give them a shot.
Oh wow, I had read Zulaport Cutthroat as only inflicting life loss on one player, in the same vein as Blood Artist. Imagine my surprise when I noticed reading your threat that it's each opponent. Sign me up, baby! I'd imagine there's probably a ridiculous Golgari Evolutionary Leap build there somewhere, too.
At 4 CMC + condition it was the "least good" draw spell and my most successful decks played the cheaper versions. That being said the card was still fine and people should feel free to give it a try. Anything that reads "draw a card when a dude dies" is insane so just play whatever you own/can acquire/personally prefer.
My Immortal Servitude decks happily played them and the card paired with many of the aforementioned decks. Still, I wanted to showcase perfectly playable decks that didn't include the card (or not 4 copies if possible) to show people that Cutthroat isn't just a "runner-up." The card is actively good and you won't be sitting there wishing that you just had a BA every time.
Liliana, Heretical Healer. Still, when it comes to these kinds of decks I don't go too deep on expensive cards that I don't think that most players will be able to afford. I try to test as many budget-friendly options as possible so that I can showcase working decks that anyone could afford. As such I have basically no testing with expensive cards.
If you want to see my IS deck it was something like:
Something close to that anyways. I'm obviously just posting nothing for the manabase since I expect people to play whatever they own as opposed to whatever I post.
There's probably an Eldrazi build that goes over the top with Scions and Spawns possible too.
Not really. If anything I just added more cards like Grave Pact and used Bloodthrone Vampire as a "dome you for 20" threat. There's no real need to field expensive fatties IMO.
I was eyeing those Sengir Autocrats and the thought of running a Homelands card struck me as so unusual that maaaybe it might not be the best choice ever. I have nothing against Homelands per se (other than that it is a horrendous pile of poo, of course), but I just thought there might be other candidates for that slot.
You mentioned Liliana, Heretical Healer. She is, unfortunately, a bit hard on the wallet right now (though I expect that to change drastically five months from now).
I actually like having having a 4-bodied threat because all I'm looking to do is Scry into mass revival/Gray Merchants and not much else really matters. Getting 4 bodies, 4 triggers, 4 Scrys, etc. felt good to me. What I didn't test was Pawn of Ulamog but that one seem interesting. I completely overlooked that card and I'll definitely be giving that one a go. Good catch :).
You didn't like either of the BW decks? Even with 8 mass revival spells and ~6 or so mass draw spells they didn't feel consistent to you? I personally tested many variations including ones with Squadron Hawk, Mentor of the Meek, Well of Lost Dreams and even things like Mirror Entity. I love the fact that Mirror Entity is an Ally and I tested things alone the lines of:
With the standard revival stuff and it felt very powerful to me. 4x MEs is obviously 1 or 2 too many but I wanted to try 4 and see how the card performed when drawn early and often every game. I of course tested March from the Tomb but I mean I obviously knew that it was weaker than things like Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death and such. It was still fine though.
I'll get back to you on Pawn of Ulamog, I'm going to be all over that card!
Haven't gotten around to testing the Pawn yet but I have been testing Blue lists with Halimar Excavator for self-mill and I've been loving it. My Current list is:
Trade Secrets is usually amazing in these kinds of decks. Either you pay 3 mana to draw 4 cards and are very happy about it or you draw 20 cards, discard to hand size, cast a revival spell and win on the spot. Whirler Rogue helps push Bloodthrone Vampire/Nantuko Husk through for damage which I really like. If you want more interaction cards like Bala Ged Thief are great with mass revival (good bye cards in hand!) and even Hagra Diabolist is fantastic at burning people out. There's also good old Sea Gate Loremaster if you want to draw more cards as opposed to reviving dudes. I'm on the fence about Jwari Shapeshifter vs Baleful Strix since the Shapehifter doesn't combo especially well with Living Death other than providing a few ETB/dies triggers. Still, I'm loving this card so much. I haven't had this much fun since Gray Merchant of Asphodel. You really need to pick up and play with the thing if you haven't already.
It's basically a Gray Merchant deck w/o Gray Mechants for people who can't play that card in their own metas due to bans/restrictions. For the spells you can just play 4x Patriarch's Bidding if you own them.
I also liked the Tombstone Stairwell suggestion that Xyx brought up and rolled with:
I missed this a while back for some reason. I generally dislike creatures that can't block and R.Kelly is quite slow. Where I like Gravecrawler is in Carrion Feeder style decks but I usually don't play him otherwise.
With respect to Bloodghast, Nether Traitor and Reassembling Skeleton they enable you to play a slower, grindier game but they don't lend themselves to combo kills and they're bad blockers. I'm fine playing a couple Skellies in most lists but I think that the full 4 is almost always a mistake. I will, on the other hand, play 4 Ghasts (free recursion is sweet) but usually only in decks with cards like Grave Pact to offset the fact that I'm down on board presence.
What I will say is that I think that the "engines" are often overrated and that you're usually better off playing with defensive threats + mass recursion. Cards like Living Death make it ridiculously easy to clear the table out past a certain point so I don't find myself needing these kinda of dorky enablers that don't do very much. My basic gamplan is to sit back behind walls of sticky threats, never attack, never given anyone incentive to mess with me and build up for big combo turns whenever possible.
I can't find a reason for the Blue Zulaport deck to have 12 artifact lands. Is that an evolutionary dead end from earlier versions? I'm also wondering if the blue is really worth it. Whirler Rogue's UU isn't exactly easy to splash and the rest of the deck is really B hungry, which has gotten me in trouble. Not very consistent. Maybe some Preordains would fix that but I'd as soon cut the blue entirely.
Mostly just for Whirler Rogue but they're not required or anything. I personally don't see a problem with playing a 2 color deck that has a UU 4 drop. The manabases that I'm posting are just there to fill out the numbers because I generally expect people to play whatever they own/can afford. Right now I'm playtesting shells moreso than fine tuning so I'm playing with 26x "Underground Sea" just to get a feel for what works and what doesn't.
I personally like the Halimar Excavator, Kalastria Healer, Zulaport Cutthroat + mass revival shell. I also like how Whirler Rogue can make my Bloodthrone Vampires unblockable at no real opportunity cost, I like how it's a solid turn 4 blocker to buy me some time, I like the 3 bodies, I like the Human subtype, etc. The deck isn't perfect but the shell feels good to me and the mana is easy to fix for anyone who really cares to.
I'm playing against a straightforward efficient Jund deck featuring the traditional resilient threats and diverse answers (including Scavenging Oozes eating my graveyard). Good test, though. Generally, if a deck can handle that with ease (the AI isn't exactly brilliant), it's ready for my meta. So far, only the Black Devotion and GB decks have fared well.
I build decks designed for 4+ player FFAs that you could feel good about sleeving up in 8+ player games. They're not going to beat stock duel decks in a 1v1 setting but what I can offer is a relatively competitive deck that scale reasonably "indefinitely" with increased # of players and that won't break the bank. I know that some of the decks that I posted have a bit of money in them, Patriarch's Bidding wasn't a $9.00 card back when I purchased it so I forget these things sometimes, but in general I'm sticking to cards that cost from pennies-to-dollars without going any higher. I realize that you're not defending your litmus test to the death but bear in mind that you're jamming ~$20.00 multiplayer decks into an expensive duel deck so the results are never going to be satisfactory. If I were truly building without budget in mind you'd see a lot more Hangarback Walkers and Liliana, Heretical Healers and whatnot but that would defeat the purpose of this exercise for me.
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the Blue deck(s)? I personally really liked Halimar Excavator + Zulaport Cutthroat + Kalastria Healer and Whirler Rogue making Bloodthrone Vampires unblockable while still being a generically powerful card always seemed sweet. I really liked the "free" self-mill in the deck with tons of "Living Deaths" and Trade Secrets was the perfect card. Either you pay 3 and draw 4 which is fine or someone makes a mistake and lets you draw more than 4 at which point you can't lose. It's a win-win either way. Of all the decks that I've posted the Blue ones were some of my favorites and I genuinely enjoyed playing them over most of the others. I agree that they could use a bit of optimization, I was mostly just testing shells, but I'm surprised to hear that didn't think that they were serviceable. What aspects of them did you find too weak/vulnerable/marginal? Is the deck missing the consistency of Preordain, the power of Hangarback Walker, the absurdity of Treasure Cruise?
Let me put another way. I want to play the following shell:
Because I'm convinced that it's powerful enough to justify build around. How would you go about fleshing the rest of the deck out, or what do you think would make the list more competitive?
Does the great Prid3 not face above-average heat at his table? Do his opponents not say "kill Prid3's stuff or he'll win, again"? Is Prid3 simply allowed to win?
I face above-average heat but that's because of social politics. My games tend to be very large and include people who don't always know each other very well. Given the choice of attacking your brother, your best friend, your colleague, etc. or some guy who barely know and/or his girlfriend most people will default to attacking the person that they have the closest relationship with. I've also been playing for 15 years whereas some have been playing for < 1 so I've developped various "rivalries" if you will and once players find themselves in unwinnable positions they'll usually default to focusing their last-ditch efforts on me. After all, it's way more fun to see "the new guy" win than Prid3. Otherwise, nah, I don't feel especially hated-out.
With respect to my win rate, it's nothing special. People don't have to gang-up on me because everyone plays powerful decks and it's virtually impossible to hold a respectable win-rate when you're playing Battlecruiser Magic. When I say that these decks are broken, I don't mean that they win every game. I've said it before and I'll say it again but there has to be a baseline level of competition before multiplayer strategy becomes legitimately interesting to discuss. If you think that I win every game, think again, because far more often than not I lose to the same random bull***** I support in these threads. People who know me know me as "the multiplayer MTG guy" and since I've spent 15 years building budget decks it's extremely easy for me to help people flesh out their lists. If someone wants to buy-in for ~$40.00 I can accommodate that and build them a deck that can crush players like me with ease. It's not expensive/hard to build something with 4x Sudden Demise 4x Outpost Siege 4x Mob Rule and just smash Prid3/his stuff for jillions like any other player. Insofar as people are playing powerful decks themselves it's just not feasible to oppress the table so my win rate isn't a problem for our meta.
So yeah, when I say that these decks are good, I don't mean "80% win rate" good. They can beat any number of players, they cost less than ~$50.00 (most of them), they field a lot of blockers, they have lifegain, they have resilience against removal, etc. I don't like these shells because I'm winning every game, I just feel as though I'm always in it to win it. Even in the games that I lose I usually feel like I'm 1-2 big spells away from sealing the thing for myself. That, to me, is more than enough to keep playing them. My losses don't feel hopeless and my wins often feel very convincing.
Maybe suspending Living End wouldn't be the worst.
Actually I was testing versions with Brainstorm and Bring to Light. What do you think about that? B.Storm can hide any LEs that I draw and BtL becomes Living Death 5-8. B.Storm is also obviously a very powerful Magic card. I'm clearly not just playing it to hide LEs.
Another question, how did you like that card? I was testing it myself but I kept running into the problem of it not doing anything when I cast Living Death other than provide me with a few ETB + death triggers. I eventually cut it for that reason. Still, in hindsight I probably cut it a bit too early. I think that I'm going to keep trying it. It's probably still good enough.
Also, how did the 0 sac outlet strategy work? Did you ever miss being able to sac your dudes in response to removal and such in order to go for big combo kills? Sac your team, Living Death, sac team again, etc?
EDIT: Just to be clear for the newer players; if you cast a Living Death style card that recur multiple creatures at once your Clones can't target creatures that its puts into play. If you Patriarch's Bidding and have a Kalastria Healer already in play then you can copy that for example (or any other creature already in play) but NOT a creature that you're reviving alongside it. What this means is that when you Living Death a "Clone" into play it's always going to enter as a 0/0 and die immediately. You'll still get to trigger ETB/dies triggers but that's it.
But this would be more of a value deck than "combo the table out" deck. No sac outlets means no crazy turns where you sac everything and deal a million damage.
I quite like Jwari Shapeshifter. You run it out on turn 3 copying whatever 2-drop and after that it's just gravy. Even if it comes back as a 0/0 blank it still gets you (r)ally(fall) and death triggers.
I'm currently testing it vs Baleful Strix. It's close as far as I can tell.
Scions and Spawns are not expensive fatties.
I meant a deck with a lot of self sacrificing critters.
So, in other words, a Golgari build that is essentially "Zulaport Cutthroat vs. Awakening Zone / From Beyond", without the need to even cast a fatty. Yeah, I think I could get behind trying a variant of that build out...
So, in other words, a Golgari build that is essentially "Zulaport Cutthroat vs. Awakening Zone / From Beyond", without the need to even cast a fatty. Yeah, I think I could get behind trying a variant of that build out...
I am aiming to build such a deck for multiplayer games (king variant where I always have 4 opponents), based on sacking the eldrazi tokens for some good damage.... I will work on a shell which includes the above cards as well as Dark Prophecy and advise later, but in the meantime, does anyone have such a deck already built? Looking for ideas/suggestions.
After some thinking, I won't go with an eldrazi token route (as mentioned in my previous post) for the moment. Unless someone has tried this with some success (if so, please share your decklist)?
Here is the current decklist I am working with, strongly inspired by Prid3's deck. I think this version can hold its own, but does it seem strong enough for a multiplayer game (casual but still good players)? My main hesitation is with Kalastria Healer as there are not that many allies in the deck. However I see him appearing in several decks out there which revolve around Zulaport Cutthroat. Am I missing something here?
I want to avoid expensive cards if possible. Thanks for your input!
Before I get to the final builds I want to start by highlighting Grim Haruspex, Dark Prophecy and Smothering Abomination. When I was originally building my lists I want typically defaulting to Deathreap Ritual until it dawned on me that Grim Haruspex was vastly outperforming it each and very time. When I moved away from "single shot" draw spells effects that couldn't chain/combo together and more towards ones that worked with Zulaport Cutthroat it became immediately clear that this was the way to go. Keep that in mind when you read these lists because I'm not going to explain why none of them feature Deathreap Ritual any longer.
The first list that I started testing looked something like:
21x Swamp
4x Leechridden Swamp
Creatures (27)
4x Viscera Seer
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Sultai Emissary
2x Kalastria Healer
3x Grim Haruspex
2x Ophiomancer
2x Pawn of Ulamog
2x Smothering Abomination
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Dark Prophecy
4x Living Death
This type of strategy proved to be quite degenerate and I can assure that Gray Merchant had nothing to do with it. The combination of Dark Prophecy style card draw with free sac outlets and mass recursion proved to be immensely powerful and I was routinely drawing my entire deck, discarding throngs of threats to hand size only to cast Living Death style cards to end games on the spot. Moreover, I could lean on cards like Shadows of the Past and Viscera Seer in combination with threats such as Ophiomancer and Sengir Autocrat to get "infinite looks" for spells that matter. Once I hit 5 lands I was almost always able to "stop" at which point I could chain into nothing but Gray Merchant/Living Deaths/Zulaports/draw engines.
Short after I began experiment with decks such as:
7x Forest
3x Swamp
4x Golgari Rot Farm
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Jungle Hollow
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
4x Viscera Seer
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Catacomb Sifter
4x Grim Haruspex
3x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Wake the Dead
4x Living Death
I was mostly curious how strong a $20.00 deck could be and I have to say that I was blown away. Zulaport Cutthroat's ability to dome everyone for 20 is astounding and even versions of the deck that didn't include Blood Artist were easily clearing tables. I'll throw Life // Death's name out there since I was often using it in my Green decks as A) recursion and B) an easy combo-kill card when I had 1-2 Zulaports out since turning all of your lands into dudes is quite strong.
There's also White and decks such as:
6x Plains
4x Swamp
4x Orzhov Basilica
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
2x Vault of the Archangel
4x Viscera Seer
4x Blood Artist
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
2x Skirsdag High Priest
2x Golgari Thug
2x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Xathrid Necromancer
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Return to the Ranks
4x Rally the Ancestors
And you can obviously build versions with Grand Abolisher, Mentor of the Meek, Immortal Servitude and all of that other awesome nonsense as well.
Anyways, the one thing that became clear to me no matter how many different takes I tried was that the card is absolutely bat***** insane. To anyone who was in the "it's worse than Blood Artist" camp let me assure you that it's extremely capable of winning the game on its own in a completely non-interactive fashion. If you don't have some yet I strongly encourage that you acquire some and give them a shot.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
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At 4 CMC + condition it was the "least good" draw spell and my most successful decks played the cheaper versions. That being said the card was still fine and people should feel free to give it a try. Anything that reads "draw a card when a dude dies" is insane so just play whatever you own/can acquire/personally prefer.
My Immortal Servitude decks happily played them and the card paired with many of the aforementioned decks. Still, I wanted to showcase perfectly playable decks that didn't include the card (or not 4 copies if possible) to show people that Cutthroat isn't just a "runner-up." The card is actively good and you won't be sitting there wishing that you just had a BA every time.
Liliana, Heretical Healer. Still, when it comes to these kinds of decks I don't go too deep on expensive cards that I don't think that most players will be able to afford. I try to test as many budget-friendly options as possible so that I can showcase working decks that anyone could afford. As such I have basically no testing with expensive cards.
If you want to see my IS deck it was something like:
7x Swamp
5x Plains
4x Orzhov Basilica
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Blood Artist
4x Cartel Aristocrat
3x Grand Abolisher
2x Suture Priest
2x Golgari Thug
2x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Skirsdag High Priest
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Return to the Ranks
4x Immortal Servitude
2x Dark Prophecy
Something close to that anyways. I'm obviously just posting nothing for the manabase since I expect people to play whatever they own as opposed to whatever I post.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Not really. If anything I just added more cards like Grave Pact and used Bloodthrone Vampire as a "dome you for 20" threat. There's no real need to field expensive fatties IMO.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I meant a deck with a lot of self sacrificing critters.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I actually like having having a 4-bodied threat because all I'm looking to do is Scry into mass revival/Gray Merchants and not much else really matters. Getting 4 bodies, 4 triggers, 4 Scrys, etc. felt good to me. What I didn't test was Pawn of Ulamog but that one seem interesting. I completely overlooked that card and I'll definitely be giving that one a go. Good catch :).
You didn't like either of the BW decks? Even with 8 mass revival spells and ~6 or so mass draw spells they didn't feel consistent to you? I personally tested many variations including ones with Squadron Hawk, Mentor of the Meek, Well of Lost Dreams and even things like Mirror Entity. I love the fact that Mirror Entity is an Ally and I tested things alone the lines of:
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Mirror Entity
With the standard revival stuff and it felt very powerful to me. 4x MEs is obviously 1 or 2 too many but I wanted to try 4 and see how the card performed when drawn early and often every game. I of course tested March from the Tomb but I mean I obviously knew that it was weaker than things like Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death and such. It was still fine though.
I'll get back to you on Pawn of Ulamog, I'm going to be all over that card!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
7x Swamp
6x Island
4x Dismal Backwater
4x Dimir Aqueduct
4x Dimir Guildgate
1x Rogue's Passage
4x Baleful Strix
4x Halimar Excavator
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Nantuko Husk
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Whirler Rogue
4x Trade Secrets
4x Living Death
Trade Secrets is usually amazing in these kinds of decks. Either you pay 3 mana to draw 4 cards and are very happy about it or you draw 20 cards, discard to hand size, cast a revival spell and win on the spot. Whirler Rogue helps push Bloodthrone Vampire/Nantuko Husk through for damage which I really like. If you want more interaction cards like Bala Ged Thief are great with mass revival (good bye cards in hand!) and even Hagra Diabolist is fantastic at burning people out. There's also good old Sea Gate Loremaster if you want to draw more cards as opposed to reviving dudes. I'm on the fence about Jwari Shapeshifter vs Baleful Strix since the Shapehifter doesn't combo especially well with Living Death other than providing a few ETB/dies triggers. Still, I'm loving this card so much. I haven't had this much fun since Gray Merchant of Asphodel. You really need to pick up and play with the thing if you haven't already.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
21x Swamp
4x Leechridden Swamp
Creatures (27)
4x Viscera Seer
4x Carrier Thrall
4x Blood Artist
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
2x Kalastria Healer
3x Pawn of Ulamog
2x Bloodline Keeper
4x Malakir Bloodwitch
4x Dark Prophecy
4x Living Death
It's basically a Gray Merchant deck w/o Gray Mechants for people who can't play that card in their own metas due to bans/restrictions. For the spells you can just play 4x Patriarch's Bidding if you own them.
I also liked the Tombstone Stairwell suggestion that Xyx brought up and rolled with:
12x Swamp
4x Dismal backwater
4x Dimir Aqueduct
2x Tainted Isle
2x Unholy Grotto
3x Gravecrawler
2x Carrion Feeder
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Sultai Emissary
3x Diregraf Captain
3x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Nantuko Husk
4x Vengeful Dead
2x Undead Alchemist
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4x Tombstone Stairwell
4x Living Death
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
7x Swamp
5x Mountain
4x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Akoum Refuge
4x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Foundry of the Consuls
3x Reassembling Skeleton
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Grim Haruspex
3x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Greater Gargadon
2x Tempt with Vengeance
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Rupture
2x Mass Mutiny
4x Mob Rule
I kinda missed not having Bazaar Trader but it's a start. I'll keep working on it.
Built 4-color Allies as well:
4x Nomad Outpost
4x Arcane Sanctum
4x Exotic Orchard
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Ally Encampment
4x Rupture Spire
1x Orzhov Basilica
4x Halimar Excavator
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Taurean Mauler
3x Mirror Entity
4x Munda, Ambush leader
4x Hagra Diabolist
4x March from the Tomb
4x Patriarch's Bidding
But you could obviously build it w/o Blue if you were so inclined.
I also should post a Smothering Abomination list so:
7x Swamp
6x Forest
4x Jungle Hollow
4x Golgari Rot Farm
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Viscera Seer
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Blood Artist
4x Sultai Emissary
2x Bloodthrone Vampire
4x Catacomb Sifter
3x Grim Haruspex
2x Smothering Abomination
4x Wake the Dead
4x Living Death
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I missed this a while back for some reason. I generally dislike creatures that can't block and R.Kelly is quite slow. Where I like Gravecrawler is in Carrion Feeder style decks but I usually don't play him otherwise.
With respect to Bloodghast, Nether Traitor and Reassembling Skeleton they enable you to play a slower, grindier game but they don't lend themselves to combo kills and they're bad blockers. I'm fine playing a couple Skellies in most lists but I think that the full 4 is almost always a mistake. I will, on the other hand, play 4 Ghasts (free recursion is sweet) but usually only in decks with cards like Grave Pact to offset the fact that I'm down on board presence.
What I will say is that I think that the "engines" are often overrated and that you're usually better off playing with defensive threats + mass recursion. Cards like Living Death make it ridiculously easy to clear the table out past a certain point so I don't find myself needing these kinda of dorky enablers that don't do very much. My basic gamplan is to sit back behind walls of sticky threats, never attack, never given anyone incentive to mess with me and build up for big combo turns whenever possible.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
These decks are pretty sweet - I would probably look to add the cutthroats into an existing Angel of Glory's Rise Cleric deck.
Mostly just for Whirler Rogue but they're not required or anything. I personally don't see a problem with playing a 2 color deck that has a UU 4 drop. The manabases that I'm posting are just there to fill out the numbers because I generally expect people to play whatever they own/can afford. Right now I'm playtesting shells moreso than fine tuning so I'm playing with 26x "Underground Sea" just to get a feel for what works and what doesn't.
I personally like the Halimar Excavator, Kalastria Healer, Zulaport Cutthroat + mass revival shell. I also like how Whirler Rogue can make my Bloodthrone Vampires unblockable at no real opportunity cost, I like how it's a solid turn 4 blocker to buy me some time, I like the 3 bodies, I like the Human subtype, etc. The deck isn't perfect but the shell feels good to me and the mana is easy to fix for anyone who really cares to.
I build decks designed for 4+ player FFAs that you could feel good about sleeving up in 8+ player games. They're not going to beat stock duel decks in a 1v1 setting but what I can offer is a relatively competitive deck that scale reasonably "indefinitely" with increased # of players and that won't break the bank. I know that some of the decks that I posted have a bit of money in them, Patriarch's Bidding wasn't a $9.00 card back when I purchased it so I forget these things sometimes, but in general I'm sticking to cards that cost from pennies-to-dollars without going any higher. I realize that you're not defending your litmus test to the death but bear in mind that you're jamming ~$20.00 multiplayer decks into an expensive duel deck so the results are never going to be satisfactory. If I were truly building without budget in mind you'd see a lot more Hangarback Walkers and Liliana, Heretical Healers and whatnot but that would defeat the purpose of this exercise for me.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I've never understood this argument but whatever.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the Blue deck(s)? I personally really liked Halimar Excavator + Zulaport Cutthroat + Kalastria Healer and Whirler Rogue making Bloodthrone Vampires unblockable while still being a generically powerful card always seemed sweet. I really liked the "free" self-mill in the deck with tons of "Living Deaths" and Trade Secrets was the perfect card. Either you pay 3 and draw 4 which is fine or someone makes a mistake and lets you draw more than 4 at which point you can't lose. It's a win-win either way. Of all the decks that I've posted the Blue ones were some of my favorites and I genuinely enjoyed playing them over most of the others. I agree that they could use a bit of optimization, I was mostly just testing shells, but I'm surprised to hear that didn't think that they were serviceable. What aspects of them did you find too weak/vulnerable/marginal? Is the deck missing the consistency of Preordain, the power of Hangarback Walker, the absurdity of Treasure Cruise?
Let me put another way. I want to play the following shell:
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Living Death
Because I'm convinced that it's powerful enough to justify build around. How would you go about fleshing the rest of the deck out, or what do you think would make the list more competitive?
Also, I would kill for a Human version of Bloodthrone Vampire/Nantuko Husk. Vampires have one, Zombies have 2 (Carrion Feeder), why don't Humans get any love ?
P.S. I've been updating my decks as I've been trying new things.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I face above-average heat but that's because of social politics. My games tend to be very large and include people who don't always know each other very well. Given the choice of attacking your brother, your best friend, your colleague, etc. or some guy who barely know and/or his girlfriend most people will default to attacking the person that they have the closest relationship with. I've also been playing for 15 years whereas some have been playing for < 1 so I've developped various "rivalries" if you will and once players find themselves in unwinnable positions they'll usually default to focusing their last-ditch efforts on me. After all, it's way more fun to see "the new guy" win than Prid3. Otherwise, nah, I don't feel especially hated-out.
With respect to my win rate, it's nothing special. People don't have to gang-up on me because everyone plays powerful decks and it's virtually impossible to hold a respectable win-rate when you're playing Battlecruiser Magic. When I say that these decks are broken, I don't mean that they win every game. I've said it before and I'll say it again but there has to be a baseline level of competition before multiplayer strategy becomes legitimately interesting to discuss. If you think that I win every game, think again, because far more often than not I lose to the same random bull***** I support in these threads. People who know me know me as "the multiplayer MTG guy" and since I've spent 15 years building budget decks it's extremely easy for me to help people flesh out their lists. If someone wants to buy-in for ~$40.00 I can accommodate that and build them a deck that can crush players like me with ease. It's not expensive/hard to build something with 4x Sudden Demise 4x Outpost Siege 4x Mob Rule and just smash Prid3/his stuff for jillions like any other player. Insofar as people are playing powerful decks themselves it's just not feasible to oppress the table so my win rate isn't a problem for our meta.
So yeah, when I say that these decks are good, I don't mean "80% win rate" good. They can beat any number of players, they cost less than ~$50.00 (most of them), they field a lot of blockers, they have lifegain, they have resilience against removal, etc. I don't like these shells because I'm winning every game, I just feel as though I'm always in it to win it. Even in the games that I lose I usually feel like I'm 1-2 big spells away from sealing the thing for myself. That, to me, is more than enough to keep playing them. My losses don't feel hopeless and my wins often feel very convincing.
Actually I was testing versions with Brainstorm and Bring to Light. What do you think about that? B.Storm can hide any LEs that I draw and BtL becomes Living Death 5-8. B.Storm is also obviously a very powerful Magic card. I'm clearly not just playing it to hide LEs.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Another question, how did you like that card? I was testing it myself but I kept running into the problem of it not doing anything when I cast Living Death other than provide me with a few ETB + death triggers. I eventually cut it for that reason. Still, in hindsight I probably cut it a bit too early. I think that I'm going to keep trying it. It's probably still good enough.
Also, how did the 0 sac outlet strategy work? Did you ever miss being able to sac your dudes in response to removal and such in order to go for big combo kills? Sac your team, Living Death, sac team again, etc?
EDIT: Just to be clear for the newer players; if you cast a Living Death style card that recur multiple creatures at once your Clones can't target creatures that its puts into play. If you Patriarch's Bidding and have a Kalastria Healer already in play then you can copy that for example (or any other creature already in play) but NOT a creature that you're reviving alongside it. What this means is that when you Living Death a "Clone" into play it's always going to enter as a 0/0 and die immediately. You'll still get to trigger ETB/dies triggers but that's it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
8x Swamp
4x Plains
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
4x Orzhov Basilica
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Blood Artist
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Ajani's Pridemate
2x Vizkopa Guildmage
1x Serene Steward
4x Return to the Ranks
4x Immortal Servitude
But there's so many cards that I want to play! Drana's Emissary is sweet but it's 3 CMC and I like that this entire deck stops at 2 for Immortal Servitude. Ondu Cleric costs 2 and gains a lot of life but I'm not quite sure what to cut for it. Do I bother with Squadron Hawk? Do I play Rally the Ancestors? Do I add Mirror Entity who is in fact an Ally?
So many choices >.<!
I guess an Ally deck would look something like:
8x Plains
4x Swamp
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
4x Orzhov Basilica
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Ondu Cleric
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Ajani's Pridemate
3x Serene Steward
2x Kazandu Blademaster
2x Drana's Emissary
2x Mirror Entity
4x Immortal Servitude
2x Well of Lost Dreams
4x March from the Tomb
But this would be more of a value deck than "combo the table out" deck. No sac outlets means no crazy turns where you sac everything and deal a million damage.
Then there's also Suture Priest which is powerful alongside Blood Artist in Living Death decks. Maybe something like:
6x Swamp
6x Plains
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
4x Orzhov Basilica
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Suture Priest
4x Blood Artist
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Kalastria Healer
4x Serene Steward
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Immortal Servitude
4x Living Death
I guess I should test one combo version of the deck that only plays for combo kills. I'm thinking:
6x Swamp
6x Plains
4x Scoured Barrens
4x Orzhov Guildgate
4x Orzhov Basilica
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Viscera Seer
4x Sultai Emissary
4x Blood Artist
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
2x Kalastria Healer
2x Vizkopa Guildmage
2x Carrier Thrall
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Rally the Ancestors
2x Return to the Ranks
4x Living Death
There's so many freaking ways to build the decks -_-. I haven't even gotten to things like Spirit Bonds yet!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm currently testing it vs Baleful Strix. It's close as far as I can tell.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So, in other words, a Golgari build that is essentially "Zulaport Cutthroat vs. Awakening Zone / From Beyond", without the need to even cast a fatty. Yeah, I think I could get behind trying a variant of that build out...
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
I am aiming to build such a deck for multiplayer games (king variant where I always have 4 opponents), based on sacking the eldrazi tokens for some good damage.... I will work on a shell which includes the above cards as well as Dark Prophecy and advise later, but in the meantime, does anyone have such a deck already built? Looking for ideas/suggestions.
Thanks!
After some thinking, I won't go with an eldrazi token route (as mentioned in my previous post) for the moment. Unless someone has tried this with some success (if so, please share your decklist)?
Here is the current decklist I am working with, strongly inspired by Prid3's deck. I think this version can hold its own, but does it seem strong enough for a multiplayer game (casual but still good players)? My main hesitation is with Kalastria Healer as there are not that many allies in the deck. However I see him appearing in several decks out there which revolve around Zulaport Cutthroat. Am I missing something here?
I want to avoid expensive cards if possible. Thanks for your input!
3 Blistergrub
2 Carrier Thrall
4 Grim Haruspex
4 Kalastria Healer
4 Pawn of Ulamog
2 Smothering Abomination
4 Viscera Seer
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Shadows of the Past
3 Wake the Dead
3 Immortal Servitude