I have always loved Recurring Nightmare. This single card has been one of the single most powerful reanimation spell every printed and almost every casual/multiplayer reanimation themed deck here has been trying to abuse this card to their advantage.
The direction I would like to take with this card (relative to others) is rather simple. I want to find a way to abuse it in multiplayer to make it very competitive and yet fun to play. For that to happen, I would need your (the community's help). Here are a few things I would like:
1. The deck should focus around Recurring Nightmare for MP
2. Its ok to port over the Legacy Reanimator styled decks to MP
I would like to share with you my personal take and I would like your feedback and ideas:)
There are 2 parts to a reanimation deck. Getting Recurring Nightmare and getting creatures into the yard. This is how I intend to resolve these 2 issues using a very common dig and dump spell:
Consistency: Careful Study: A direct port from Legacy themed decks. This little baby dumps creatures into the yard and digs to Recurring Nightmare for 1 miserable Blue mana. Faithless Looting: Same card with flashback is obviously better (if we decide to run red) Frantic Search: Free cards are always good. Forbidden Alchemy: Not too shabby a card as well
Now that we have found a consistent way to get to Recurring Nightmares, we need a plan to generate insane CA through Recurring Nightmare.
The creatures: Bloodghast: This bad boy reanimates himself whenever you play a land. I think that sounds reasonable for me. Angel of Despair: Vindicate on a stick. She flies, she bombs a PERMANENT and she has a large body to boot. Woodfall Primus: Persist and Persist. I think it speaks for itself. Pelakka Wurm: Card Draw and Life Gain. Possibly a singleton or 2. Solemn Simulacrum: Card Draw and land search Sundering Titan: Insane Insane in multiplayer. Truely. Child of Alara: Board sweeper!
Others to consider: Eternal Witness: Brings back Recurring Nightmare Buried Alive: This is a tutor for creatures Bitterblossom: This generates tokens to sacrifice to RN in case you somehow cant find Bloodghast or because you need to chump block in a pinch. Alternatives include Goblin Assault (if we splash red) and Awakening Zone.
In terms of your creature choices, Bloodghast is utterly pointless here. Recurring Nightmare is at its best when you are reanimating creatures that have ETB effects. I get that Bloodghast is aiming to be your cheap sacrificial fodder here, but if your creature base is good enough, you simply don't need any. Let's see...
Turn 1: Careful Study dumping... say... Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair, assuming a good draw?
Turn 2: Bitterblossom.
Turn 3: Recurring Nightmare, sac the Faerie token, bring back Primus to piff the worst thing on the board.
Turn 4: Swing with the Primus at whoever's open. Replay Nightmare, sac the Primus to it for the Angel. Primus comes back thanks to Persist. Piff the two worst permanents on the board...
... see where this is going? Bloodghast is only going to slow you down.
In terms of your creature choices, Bloodghast is utterly pointless here. Recurring Nightmare is at its best when you are reanimating creatures that have ETB effects. I get that Bloodghast is aiming to be your cheap sacrificial fodder here, but if your creature base is good enough, you simply don't need any. Let's see...
Turn 1: Careful Study dumping... say... Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair, assuming a good draw?
Turn 2: Bitterblossom.
Turn 3: Recurring Nightmare, sac the Faerie token, bring back Primus to piff the worst thing on the board.
Turn 4: Swing with the Primus at whoever's open. Replay Nightmare, sac the Primus to it for the Angel. Primus comes back thanks to Persist. Piff the two worst permanents on the board...
... see where this is going? Bloodghast is only going to slow you down.
Sounds interesting bro. I have 2 questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you have a sample deck list of a "broken" Recurring Nightmare/Survival Deck?
2. Would you say that Survival of the fittest is best used in a Recurring Nightmare Shell or does it deserve to have another deck built around it that rivals Recurring Nightmare (ie Vengevine).
I asked this because Survival of the Fittest is the next card I was planning to request help on building with the community:)
Sounds interesting bro. I have 2 questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you have a sample deck list of a "broken" Recurring Nightmare/Survival Deck?
Can't say I do at the moment without hunting... one of the guys in my playgroup has been running this combo famously since Exodus came out (he's tinkered with the deck a bit, but the bones still make it work). I'm working off memory here, but I know his decklist carries:
Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Grave Titan as his finishers (mostly because they're the fattest things he owns that don't shuffle back when they hit the yard).
2. Would you say that Survival of the fittest is best used in a Recurring Nightmare Shell or does it deserve to have another deck built around it that rivals Recurring Nightmare (ie Vengevine).
I asked this because Survival of the Fittest is the next card I was planning to request help on building with the community:)
Ha! Nice!
TBH, Survival of the Fittest, like Recurring Nightmare, is damned good by itself. It's like having ice cream with chocolate fudge - they're both more than passable by themselves, but when you combine them...
I had a Naya Beast Tribal deck for a while that dug all its pieces out with Survival of the Fittest and recursed Squee, Goblin Nabob. When I drew Survival and Squee in my opening hand, I don't think I ever lost. It's that good.
Agreed. My friend is yet to discover this (and would run it in a heartbeat... I think he's got Necrotic Oozes too)... do NOT pass this on under ANY circumstances!
Agreed. My friend is yet to discover this (and would run it in a heartbeat... I think he's got Necrotic Oozes too)... do NOT pass this on under ANY circumstances!
Pure evil!! I love the combo but the restriction I place upon myself is to avoid those 1 shot combo deck kills. It spoils the game for everyone.
But the recurring nightmare + survival + kokusho = not too broken combo
but how do we inject a little consistency/protection in the deck.
I know the old survival decks of legacy (which got it banned) abused vengevine to no end
In terms of your creature choices, Bloodghast is utterly pointless here. Recurring Nightmare is at its best when you are reanimating creatures that have ETB effects. I get that Bloodghast is aiming to be your cheap sacrificial fodder here, but if your creature base is good enough, you simply don't need any. Let's see...
Turn 1: Careful Study dumping... say... Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair, assuming a good draw?
Turn 2: Bitterblossom.
Turn 3: Recurring Nightmare, sac the Faerie token, bring back Primus to piff the worst thing on the board.
Turn 4: Swing with the Primus at whoever's open. Replay Nightmare, sac the Primus to it for the Angel. Primus comes back thanks to Persist. Piff the two worst permanents on the board...
... see where this is going? Bloodghast is only going to slow you down.
I find your way of saying that Bloodghast is bad to be quite weird because all you did was showing that Bitterblossom is better because it costs 1B instead... it's also harder to get rid of it because it's an enchantment and it's more reliable because you will get a token whether you play a land or not... However, in your example, the Bitterblossom could have been replaced by a Bloodghast to achieve very similar results, this is making me think of it as a budget Bitterblossom... in the same way a Fauna Shaman would be a budget version of Survival of the Fittest
I find your way of saying that Bloodghast is bad to be quite weird because all you did was showing that Bitterblossom is better because it costs 1B instead... it's also harder to get rid of it because it's an enchantment and it's more reliable because you will get a token whether you play a land or not... However, in your example, the Bitterblossom could have been replaced by a Bloodghast to achieve very similar results, this is making me think of it as a budget Bitterblossom... in the same way a Fauna Shaman would be a budget version of Survival of the Fittest
True, but to me, it's more about playing a self-reanimating creature in a deck that packs Recurring Nightmare. It's like working in the Department of Redundancy Department.
There are no doubt different options we could use here... I'm just sure there's an option we could use that does something other than reanimate (and therefore be more useful, and not doubling up on functionality within the deck). We could argue that even Thallids come close to filling that slot.
Oh I see what you mean, but as far as I know, bloodghast would be the best budget replacement to Bitterblossom, much less reliable but it serves the same purpose, I see it more as a resource for Recurring Nightmare than simply a a creature that revives itself.. and just like Bitterblossom, it can help you strike later on as well.
I think Thallids are simply too slow to get the job done, even at turn 1.
I know the reanimator deck is usually backed up by blue control, that offers Careful Study at the same time... throwing in green for Survival of the fittest / Fauna Shaman means you're running 3 colors. If I want to think with a budget, I think it could be interesting to replace the control/draw from blue by Fauna Shaman and more board presence than just blue draw/control.
There's also the fact that blue counters are less effective in a multiplayer context, so green's board presence might be more effective, but it would lack some card advantage.. There's Fauna Shaman that fits very well since you probably want to discard one of your fatty anyway, or a Bloodghast... but all I can think of is running Skullclamp, which will also work with Bloodghast and I guess on Fauna Shaman once Recurring Nightmare is there and the fattiest are there (in the graveyard), I would just get rid of the Shaman, draw cards and get a fatty in play.
Aside from that, green has some land fetch, but I doubt that would be efficient in this deck...
Maybe Elvish Visionary, that would work with Skullclamp, you can get it back with Recurring Nightmare if you really need it, and you draw a card when you first cast it. Soul of the Harvest and Harvester of Souls could work well, but only once your Recurring stuff is already running.. that doesn't sound too useful.
This is getting somewhat off topic, but I'm just trying to think of other ways to play with Recurring Nightmare in the multiplayer context.
Not quite as off-the-charts as things suggested above but still quite potent and fun to play.
skullclamp sir belongs to a long list of cards wizards wished they never printed. I abused it to no end in my casual affinity deck with Sol ring and academy ruins to power out ridiculous T1 stuff
Its "unfair" in SP but its actually rather balanced in MP because such vanilla creatures like master of etherium can easily be pathed/swords-ed away. Even Etched Champ is not a huge threat if your group can remove Cranial Plating
Back to the topic, I really like the Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair Combo. I also like how Survival of the Fittest is pure nuts as a discard engine. I only have an issue that the game plan focuses so heavily on finding the Recurring Nightmare.
Oh I see what you mean, but as far as I know, bloodghast would be the best budget replacement to Bitterblossom, much less reliable but it serves the same purpose, I see it more as a resource for Recurring Nightmare than simply a a creature that revives itself.. and just like Bitterblossom, it can help you strike later on as well.
I think Thallids are simply too slow to get the job done, even at turn 1.
Agreed, Thallids were mentioned just as a comparison more than anything. They're two turns slower.
TBH, the Zombie Infestations that my buddy runs are probably an even more budget solution. Same CC as Bitterblossom, and a discard outlet to boot for RN.
Agreed, Thallids were mentioned just as a comparison more than anything. They're two turns slower.
TBH, the Zombie Infestations that my buddy runs are probably an even more budget solution. Same CC as Bitterblossom, and a discard outlet to boot for RN.
hey mate if you had to run an ideal decklist what would you run?
Agreed, Thallids were mentioned just as a comparison more than anything. They're two turns slower.
TBH, the Zombie Infestations that my buddy runs are probably an even more budget solution. Same CC as Bitterblossom, and a discard outlet to boot for RN.
hey mate if you had to run an ideal decklist what would you run?
hey mate if you had to run an ideal decklist what would you run?
Er... good question, that one...
The deck really has to be BG (you want heavy black to replay Recurring Nightmare a lot, and you want heavy green to activate Survival of the Fittest a lot), so, with a wild stab in the dark, absolutely no searching of decklists etc. etc. ...
This is a bit slower, and you're more reliant on having RN and SotF hanging around, but really, give it 4-5 turns and it's winning the game from there (and doing terrible, terrible things in the process). About the only thing that stops it dead is Bojuka Bog or heavy use of hard, exiling counters like Dissipate.
I really need to throw this into TappedOut.net's playtester and see how it rolls...
Anyway, explanation of some of the weirder card choices...
The singleton Squee is key here. He is your first target with SotF. He's very hard to get out of the game (I think I've successfully had him stripped out of my graveyard less times than I can count on one hand).
Argothian Enchantress will draw half your deck out when you're constantly replaying Recurring Nightmare. Azusa then lets you dump all your land while you're doing this, and accelerates you into even more RN replays.
Butcher of Malakir and Fleshbag Marauder should be all the crowd control you'll need. When you're constantly sacrificing things to RN, the Butcher will clear the board in record time. It That Betrays just piggybacks off this (and wrecks opposing boards).
Scavenging Ooze is there for opponent graveyard disruption (my mate runs Creakwood Ghoul here, but the Ooze is better)... mostly to stop opposing reanimator decks, which run rampant in my meta.
Pentavus is essentially a much slower Bitterblossom or Zombie Infestation here. Get it out, take all the counters off it, throw it overboard with RN, bring it back by saccing one of the Pentavite tokens... it gets exponential, and produces fliers to boot.
The rest should be fairly obvious. Landing multiple Kokushos in a hurry, and then recurring them over and over with RN is probably your key win-con. Triskelion is a slower one, as is the creature generation from Pentavus and Grave Titan. You could probably end up just beating with the Primuses, PrimeTime, Kokushos and so forth in case of emergency.
One thing of note that's pretty important to remember when running a Recurring Nightmare + Survival of the Fittest is that is very mana intensive. You won’t be doing multiple nightmares in the one turn.
At the moment you deck is very reliant on getting a Bitterblossom + Recurring Nightmare in hand and then getting a token into play. Without it you are just stuck with a heap of expensive critters. Your deck is as vulnerable to graveyard hate as a reanimator deck while been 3 times as slow.
Angel of Despair, Sundering Titan, Woodfall Primus and even Child of Alara are doing a similar job ie blowing up stuff when they come into play. I’d trim the numbers.
you are also playing the greatest creature tutor ever in Survival of the Fittest but not playing to its strength which is being able to play a wide range of silver bullets. Consider playing some cheaper bullets that you can cast from your hand as CadaverousBl00m has in his deck.
Personally i think you could cut
-4 Careful Study
-2 Frantic Search
-2 Angel of Despair
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Pelakka Wurm
-2 Woodfall Primus
That's a whopping 13 spell slots for you to put some versatility into your creature choices.
Besides the ones that CadaverousBl00m mentioned some other silver bullets to consider
- Genesis (plan B recursion)
- Shreikmaw
- Duplicant
- Wurmcoil engine
- Regal Force (you are going to need some cheap green accel to get some milage out of him)
- Symbiotic Wurm (great sac target)
I thought of this one and I still think Bloodghast is better... Basking Rootwalla is fast but it's a single use and it comes at a time where you might not need to be faster (turn 2 where you can't play Recurring Nightmare anyway) Of course I did not play that deck, but I'm trying to think of what happens when a few slots in your deck are Basking Rootwalla.
I thought of this one and I still think Bloodghast is better... Basking Rootwalla is fast but it's a single use and it comes at a time where you might not need to be faster (turn 2 where you can't play Recurring Nightmare anyway) Of course I did not play that deck, but I'm trying to think of what happens when a few slots in your deck are Basking Rootwalla.
Thaks guys. I understand that you can't "Do it all" in deck building. Please do correct my views here after consolidating what you have been saying thus far.
In the case of recurring nightmare, I always thought this guy was a CA machine. You sacrifice your early game tempo for late game control and board presence.
In the case of Survival, I always thought him more in the shell of a fast tempo deck. Maybe I was too enamoured with the pre Maverick Legacy survival decks of 2010 and certainly I think we can all tweakor adapt a Legacy survival for MP.
Pull these 2 guys together seems good at first glace but it really seems to set the deck back somewhat at least in theory. Allow me to explain.
The focus of any reanimation deck is to get creatures from the yard into play via recurring nightmare. Like the name, we plan to abuse him by doing it again again and again.
3 core issues come to mind to pull this off. Creatures in the yard and fodder for the activation and of course, getting our namesake card. In an ideal world, we will get Recurring Nightmare in every hand. Problem is, there are games where you dont draw the card and your really very very dead in the water.
So the primary issue is consistency. How do we get to Recurring Nightmare?
1. Tutors: Bloom's idea is demonic tutor which is a fantastic choice given that we are running black. It tutors for Recurring Nightmare and Survival as well as any late game silver bullets we need. It is right now also strangely cheap. We can dedicate 4 slots to demonic. Another option is Enlightened Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.
2. We can dig to him via the route I suggested in my 1st post using careful study and like.
The second question is discard:
1. Survival of the fittest is very very sexy. She is so good and god like, she singlehanded dominated Legacy for a while. I think she speaks for herself. She digs, she tutors for creatures and she dumps in the yard. With Squee, Goblin Nabob, she also can generate CA.
2. There is also the option of digging through your deck using careful study but you will not get your silver bullets.
The final question is sacrifical fodder.
1. You can have token generators Bitterblossom which can chump and attack. Its a defensive offensive strat. Very good viable in MP.
The debate is between Blossom and ghasts
Let me examine the possible hypothetical power openers using the various options mentioned above starting with Bitterblossom:
You need a good 8 of the 11 cards drawn to pull this off. We also need 4 lands to go off within T4 but seems tough given this deck is actually rather land light.
You can also go Bloodghasts:
T1: Land
T2: Land, SoTf
T3: Land, Discard, Ghasts searching for say Woodfall, discard Woodfall
T4: Land (recurring) ghasts, recurring nightmare
Bloom is extremely correct when he says Blossom is the better option purely because in my opinion, the 1/1 flying tokens do get to attack and block as a plan b while ghasts as 2/1s are rather useless in MP. In terms of perfect ideal starting hands, both are equally slow requiring 4 turns to even get a fatty into play.
Going the careful study option (without blossom/sotf) is different:
T1 Land, careful study dumping ghast and fatty
T2 Land recurring ghast, demonic tutor for recurring nigthmare/land
T3 Land, recurring nightmare
This potentially goes off a full turn earlier than the earlier 2 options but you sacrifice the silver bullet potential that you get by not going SoTf.
Between these 3 options, I somehow see a sweet spot in making a mid range insane deck. I just cant quite get there yet.
Of course Careful Study could get you a bloodghast and a big creature in your grave at turn one, and it also replaces the two cards you discarded. But that's it. In a 1v1 context, chances are this first reanimated beast can already **** up your opponent... but in multiplayer, it's guaranteed that you will need to put other stuff in your graveyard and reanimate more fatties. This is the reason why we are discussing a Recurring Nightmare deck and not a Revive / Exhume deck. It's in this sense that SotF fits the deck, also you don't rely to have the fatty that you want in your hand, meaning you can run 1-2 of each and still get the one you want.
In both cases, considering you discard cards that you want to throw in your grave and that you draw/fetch additional(s) card(s), I would consider both these cards as serious card advantage in this deck.
Now, of course a 1 mana spell that draws two and throws two in the graveyard is faster than SotF which would require 4 mana total if you wanted to do the same as Careful Study... but even then, you are fetching for the exact cards that you want and you will be able to repeat the effect later. In multiplayer, I'd rather be able to repeat the effect at will and be 1 turn slower than running out of possibilities because I can't throw any more fatties in my graveyard.
As for Bitterblossom vs Bloodghast, I think Bitterblossom is superior in every way aside of not being a legal target for SotF. Bitterblossom guarantees you a creature every turn and it costs 1B instead of BB. The Bloodghast comes back by itself but you need the land drop. Still, both cards play the same role and it's probably a matter of preference or budget.
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The direction I would like to take with this card (relative to others) is rather simple. I want to find a way to abuse it in multiplayer to make it very competitive and yet fun to play. For that to happen, I would need your (the community's help). Here are a few things I would like:
1. The deck should focus around Recurring Nightmare for MP
2. Its ok to port over the Legacy Reanimator styled decks to MP
I would like to share with you my personal take and I would like your feedback and ideas:)
There are 2 parts to a reanimation deck. Getting Recurring Nightmare and getting creatures into the yard. This is how I intend to resolve these 2 issues using a very common dig and dump spell:
Consistency:
Careful Study: A direct port from Legacy themed decks. This little baby dumps creatures into the yard and digs to Recurring Nightmare for 1 miserable Blue mana.
Faithless Looting: Same card with flashback is obviously better (if we decide to run red)
Frantic Search: Free cards are always good.
Forbidden Alchemy: Not too shabby a card as well
Now that we have found a consistent way to get to Recurring Nightmares, we need a plan to generate insane CA through Recurring Nightmare.
The creatures:
Bloodghast: This bad boy reanimates himself whenever you play a land. I think that sounds reasonable for me.
Angel of Despair: Vindicate on a stick. She flies, she bombs a PERMANENT and she has a large body to boot.
Woodfall Primus: Persist and Persist. I think it speaks for itself.
Pelakka Wurm: Card Draw and Life Gain. Possibly a singleton or 2.
Solemn Simulacrum: Card Draw and land search
Sundering Titan: Insane Insane in multiplayer. Truely.
Child of Alara: Board sweeper!
Others to consider:
Eternal Witness: Brings back Recurring Nightmare
Buried Alive: This is a tutor for creatures
Bitterblossom: This generates tokens to sacrifice to RN in case you somehow cant find Bloodghast or because you need to chump block in a pinch. Alternatives include Goblin Assault (if we splash red) and Awakening Zone.
Here is my take:
1 Acidic Slime
4 Angel of Despair
4 Bloodghast
2 Child of Alara
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pelakka Wurm
2 Sundering Titan
4 Woodfall Primus
4 Careful Study
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Frantic Search
Enchantments
2 Bitterblossom
4 Recurring Nightmare
+
Rucurring nightmare
+
Kokusho
The rest is filler and ramp
Survival of the Fittest is probably the #1 card to break Recurring Nightmare.
And you won't need any creature past Kokusho, the Evening Star in a deck like this. I didn't even go this route, it's so stupid...
.
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
Recurring Nightmare + Survival of the Fittest is the stone cold nuts (yes, that's right... even more so that FtV:Realms was supposed to be).
Heck, you could probably even have success replacing SotF with Fauna Shaman, thanks to the goodness that is Recurring Nightmare's brokenness (and perhaps even with Birthing Pod).
In terms of your creature choices, Bloodghast is utterly pointless here. Recurring Nightmare is at its best when you are reanimating creatures that have ETB effects. I get that Bloodghast is aiming to be your cheap sacrificial fodder here, but if your creature base is good enough, you simply don't need any. Let's see...
Turn 1: Careful Study dumping... say... Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair, assuming a good draw?
Turn 2: Bitterblossom.
Turn 3: Recurring Nightmare, sac the Faerie token, bring back Primus to piff the worst thing on the board.
Turn 4: Swing with the Primus at whoever's open. Replay Nightmare, sac the Primus to it for the Angel. Primus comes back thanks to Persist. Piff the two worst permanents on the board...
... see where this is going? Bloodghast is only going to slow you down.
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Sounds interesting bro. I have 2 questions if you don't mind.
1. Would you have a sample deck list of a "broken" Recurring Nightmare/Survival Deck?
2. Would you say that Survival of the fittest is best used in a Recurring Nightmare Shell or does it deserve to have another deck built around it that rivals Recurring Nightmare (ie Vengevine).
I asked this because Survival of the Fittest is the next card I was planning to request help on building with the community:)
Can't say I do at the moment without hunting... one of the guys in my playgroup has been running this combo famously since Exodus came out (he's tinkered with the deck a bit, but the bones still make it work). I'm working off memory here, but I know his decklist carries:
Ha! Nice!
TBH, Survival of the Fittest, like Recurring Nightmare, is damned good by itself. It's like having ice cream with chocolate fudge - they're both more than passable by themselves, but when you combine them...
I had a Naya Beast Tribal deck for a while that dug all its pieces out with Survival of the Fittest and recursed Squee, Goblin Nabob. When I drew Survival and Squee in my opening hand, I don't think I ever lost. It's that good.
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Agreed. My friend is yet to discover this (and would run it in a heartbeat... I think he's got Necrotic Oozes too)... do NOT pass this on under ANY circumstances!
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Pure evil!! I love the combo but the restriction I place upon myself is to avoid those 1 shot combo deck kills. It spoils the game for everyone.
But the recurring nightmare + survival + kokusho = not too broken combo
but how do we inject a little consistency/protection in the deck.
I know the old survival decks of legacy (which got it banned) abused vengevine to no end
I find your way of saying that Bloodghast is bad to be quite weird because all you did was showing that Bitterblossom is better because it costs 1B instead... it's also harder to get rid of it because it's an enchantment and it's more reliable because you will get a token whether you play a land or not... However, in your example, the Bitterblossom could have been replaced by a Bloodghast to achieve very similar results, this is making me think of it as a budget Bitterblossom... in the same way a Fauna Shaman would be a budget version of Survival of the Fittest
True, but to me, it's more about playing a self-reanimating creature in a deck that packs Recurring Nightmare. It's like working in the Department of Redundancy Department.
There are no doubt different options we could use here... I'm just sure there's an option we could use that does something other than reanimate (and therefore be more useful, and not doubling up on functionality within the deck). We could argue that even Thallids come close to filling that slot.
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I think Thallids are simply too slow to get the job done, even at turn 1.
I know the reanimator deck is usually backed up by blue control, that offers Careful Study at the same time... throwing in green for Survival of the fittest / Fauna Shaman means you're running 3 colors. If I want to think with a budget, I think it could be interesting to replace the control/draw from blue by Fauna Shaman and more board presence than just blue draw/control.
There's also the fact that blue counters are less effective in a multiplayer context, so green's board presence might be more effective, but it would lack some card advantage.. There's Fauna Shaman that fits very well since you probably want to discard one of your fatty anyway, or a Bloodghast... but all I can think of is running Skullclamp, which will also work with Bloodghast and I guess on Fauna Shaman once Recurring Nightmare is there and the fattiest are there (in the graveyard), I would just get rid of the Shaman, draw cards and get a fatty in play.
Aside from that, green has some land fetch, but I doubt that would be efficient in this deck...
Maybe Elvish Visionary, that would work with Skullclamp, you can get it back with Recurring Nightmare if you really need it, and you draw a card when you first cast it.
Soul of the Harvest and Harvester of Souls could work well, but only once your Recurring stuff is already running.. that doesn't sound too useful.
This is getting somewhat off topic, but I'm just trying to think of other ways to play with Recurring Nightmare in the multiplayer context.
Penumbra Wurm abuse. You can net a 6/6 Wurm token w/each activation.. Using stuff like Fleshbag Marauder, Abyssal Gatekeeper, Innocent Blood & Eternal Witness to maintain oppressive level board control at basically any point in the game. Stinkweed Imp helps w/more defense + helps set up your GY plans. I'm probably running Skullclamps to increase profitability. I win a fair # of games with it.
You could easily replace Penumbra w/Wurmcoil Engine or Thragtusk. I know I'm considering it.
Not quite as off-the-charts as things suggested above but still quite potent and fun to play.
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skullclamp sir belongs to a long list of cards wizards wished they never printed. I abused it to no end in my casual affinity deck with Sol ring and academy ruins to power out ridiculous T1 stuff
Its "unfair" in SP but its actually rather balanced in MP because such vanilla creatures like master of etherium can easily be pathed/swords-ed away. Even Etched Champ is not a huge threat if your group can remove Cranial Plating
Back to the topic, I really like the Woodfall Primus and Angel of Despair Combo. I also like how Survival of the Fittest is pure nuts as a discard engine. I only have an issue that the game plan focuses so heavily on finding the Recurring Nightmare.
4 Angel of Despair
1 Child of Alara
1 Eternal Witness
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Pelakka Wurm
2 Sundering Titan
4 Woodfall Primus
4 Careful Study
2 Frantic Search
Enchantments
4 Bitterblossom
4 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
Agreed, Thallids were mentioned just as a comparison more than anything. They're two turns slower.
TBH, the Zombie Infestations that my buddy runs are probably an even more budget solution. Same CC as Bitterblossom, and a discard outlet to boot for RN.
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hey mate if you had to run an ideal decklist what would you run?
hey mate if you had to run an ideal decklist what would you run?
Er... good question, that one...
The deck really has to be BG (you want heavy black to replay Recurring Nightmare a lot, and you want heavy green to activate Survival of the Fittest a lot), so, with a wild stab in the dark, absolutely no searching of decklists etc. etc. ...
4 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Demonic Tutor
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
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4 Woodfall Primus
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus
2 It That Betrays
2 Butcher of Malakir
1 Azusa, Lost But Seeking
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Acidic Slime
2 Argothian Enchantress
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 High Market
1 Grim Backwoods
This is a bit slower, and you're more reliant on having RN and SotF hanging around, but really, give it 4-5 turns and it's winning the game from there (and doing terrible, terrible things in the process). About the only thing that stops it dead is Bojuka Bog or heavy use of hard, exiling counters like Dissipate.
I really need to throw this into TappedOut.net's playtester and see how it rolls...
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I have a feeling I'd have to throw an It That Betrays or Butcher of Malakir overboard to get one in.
Anyway, explanation of some of the weirder card choices...
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At the moment you deck is very reliant on getting a Bitterblossom + Recurring Nightmare in hand and then getting a token into play. Without it you are just stuck with a heap of expensive critters. Your deck is as vulnerable to graveyard hate as a reanimator deck while been 3 times as slow.
Angel of Despair, Sundering Titan, Woodfall Primus and even Child of Alara are doing a similar job ie blowing up stuff when they come into play. I’d trim the numbers.
you are also playing the greatest creature tutor ever in Survival of the Fittest but not playing to its strength which is being able to play a wide range of silver bullets. Consider playing some cheaper bullets that you can cast from your hand as CadaverousBl00m has in his deck.
Personally i think you could cut
-4 Careful Study
-2 Frantic Search
-2 Angel of Despair
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Pelakka Wurm
-2 Woodfall Primus
That's a whopping 13 spell slots for you to put some versatility into your creature choices.
Besides the ones that CadaverousBl00m mentioned some other silver bullets to consider
- Genesis (plan B recursion)
- Shreikmaw
- Duplicant
- Wurmcoil engine
- Regal Force (you are going to need some cheap green accel to get some milage out of him)
- Symbiotic Wurm (great sac target)
For those who want to play along...
http://playtest.tappedout.net/real-ultimate-recurring-nightmare/
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Ooh, Wurmcoil - good call!
Can you tell hardly anyone in my playgroup has one? He'd be all over the place if we did.
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I thought of this one and I still think Bloodghast is better... Basking Rootwalla is fast but it's a single use and it comes at a time where you might not need to be faster (turn 2 where you can't play Recurring Nightmare anyway) Of course I did not play that deck, but I'm trying to think of what happens when a few slots in your deck are Basking Rootwalla.
Thaks guys. I understand that you can't "Do it all" in deck building. Please do correct my views here after consolidating what you have been saying thus far.
In the case of recurring nightmare, I always thought this guy was a CA machine. You sacrifice your early game tempo for late game control and board presence.
In the case of Survival, I always thought him more in the shell of a fast tempo deck. Maybe I was too enamoured with the pre Maverick Legacy survival decks of 2010 and certainly I think we can all tweakor adapt a Legacy survival for MP.
Pull these 2 guys together seems good at first glace but it really seems to set the deck back somewhat at least in theory. Allow me to explain.
The focus of any reanimation deck is to get creatures from the yard into play via recurring nightmare. Like the name, we plan to abuse him by doing it again again and again.
3 core issues come to mind to pull this off. Creatures in the yard and fodder for the activation and of course, getting our namesake card. In an ideal world, we will get Recurring Nightmare in every hand. Problem is, there are games where you dont draw the card and your really very very dead in the water.
So the primary issue is consistency. How do we get to Recurring Nightmare?
1. Tutors: Bloom's idea is demonic tutor which is a fantastic choice given that we are running black. It tutors for Recurring Nightmare and Survival as well as any late game silver bullets we need. It is right now also strangely cheap. We can dedicate 4 slots to demonic. Another option is Enlightened Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.
2. We can dig to him via the route I suggested in my 1st post using careful study and like.
The second question is discard:
1. Survival of the fittest is very very sexy. She is so good and god like, she singlehanded dominated Legacy for a while. I think she speaks for herself. She digs, she tutors for creatures and she dumps in the yard. With Squee, Goblin Nabob, she also can generate CA.
2. There is also the option of digging through your deck using careful study but you will not get your silver bullets.
The final question is sacrifical fodder.
1. You can have token generators Bitterblossom which can chump and attack. Its a defensive offensive strat. Very good viable in MP.
The debate is between Blossom and ghasts
Let me examine the possible hypothetical power openers using the various options mentioned above starting with Bitterblossom:
T1: Land
T2: Land, Bitterblossom
T3: Land, Survival
T4: Land, Discard creature card, Recurring Nightmare.
You need a good 8 of the 11 cards drawn to pull this off. We also need 4 lands to go off within T4 but seems tough given this deck is actually rather land light.
You can also go Bloodghasts:
T1: Land
T2: Land, SoTf
T3: Land, Discard, Ghasts searching for say Woodfall, discard Woodfall
T4: Land (recurring) ghasts, recurring nightmare
Bloom is extremely correct when he says Blossom is the better option purely because in my opinion, the 1/1 flying tokens do get to attack and block as a plan b while ghasts as 2/1s are rather useless in MP. In terms of perfect ideal starting hands, both are equally slow requiring 4 turns to even get a fatty into play.
Going the careful study option (without blossom/sotf) is different:
T1 Land, careful study dumping ghast and fatty
T2 Land recurring ghast, demonic tutor for recurring nigthmare/land
T3 Land, recurring nightmare
This potentially goes off a full turn earlier than the earlier 2 options but you sacrifice the silver bullet potential that you get by not going SoTf.
Between these 3 options, I somehow see a sweet spot in making a mid range insane deck. I just cant quite get there yet.
Of course Careful Study could get you a bloodghast and a big creature in your grave at turn one, and it also replaces the two cards you discarded. But that's it. In a 1v1 context, chances are this first reanimated beast can already **** up your opponent... but in multiplayer, it's guaranteed that you will need to put other stuff in your graveyard and reanimate more fatties. This is the reason why we are discussing a Recurring Nightmare deck and not a Revive / Exhume deck. It's in this sense that SotF fits the deck, also you don't rely to have the fatty that you want in your hand, meaning you can run 1-2 of each and still get the one you want.
In both cases, considering you discard cards that you want to throw in your grave and that you draw/fetch additional(s) card(s), I would consider both these cards as serious card advantage in this deck.
Now, of course a 1 mana spell that draws two and throws two in the graveyard is faster than SotF which would require 4 mana total if you wanted to do the same as Careful Study... but even then, you are fetching for the exact cards that you want and you will be able to repeat the effect later. In multiplayer, I'd rather be able to repeat the effect at will and be 1 turn slower than running out of possibilities because I can't throw any more fatties in my graveyard.
As for Bitterblossom vs Bloodghast, I think Bitterblossom is superior in every way aside of not being a legal target for SotF. Bitterblossom guarantees you a creature every turn and it costs 1B instead of BB. The Bloodghast comes back by itself but you need the land drop. Still, both cards play the same role and it's probably a matter of preference or budget.