Put the deck together last night. I could only find 1 Animate Dead at my store so it's there for now. I'll replace the Stitch Together with Animate Dead as I find them.
Cabal Therapy is acting as Putrid Imp 3-5. I'll replace them with actual Putrid Imps as I find them. Makeshift Mannequin is a bit better with 2 Shroud creatures to animate with. I think I'll split it with Zombify or just cut it's numbers since it basically determines which creatures I fetch with Buried Alive.
In summary, here are the planned changes:
-3 Cabal Therapy
-3 Stitch Together
-2 Makeshift Mannequin
+2 Putrid Imp
+3 Animate Dead
Ichor Explosion has to go bud. I don't care about anything other than its cost. 7 CMC in a deck with 68 cards and 22 lands. Yeah, not going to work man. Sorry :P. Anyways, I'm just going to post the list that I would run rather than make a bunch of awkward suggestions.
My deck would look something roughly like this. I'm not going to comment on the creatures because I don't really give a ****. It doesn't matter what stupidly overcosted creatures that you use, just pick good ones. Still, things like Blazing Archon and Magmatic Force seem better than some of the **** that you had, so I threw those in there. Anyways, the real focus of your deck needs to be consistency. You want to hit 4 mana by turn 4 in this deck, so 24 lands is a priority. Secondly, Stitch Together is just so much worse than Animate Dead that it has to be swapped in my mind. Makeshift Mannequin is no good. It's fine if you're reviving an Emrakul at instant speed with the shuffle trigger on the stack, but otherwise the card has no place in a standard reanimator deck. Diabolic Servitude is really, really good. It makes creature removal so much less effective against you, and makes Buried Alive that much better. I highly recommend it. I bumped Putrid Imp up to 4, since he's pretty baller, and added some Beseech the Queens to hopefully increase the deck's overall consistency. Again, this is sorta what I would run if I were in your situation. If nothing else I want to implore that you consider my deck's overall ratios. 24 lands (only if you have 4 CMC reanimate spells such as Diabolic Sevitude though), 12 reanimation spells, 15-16 creatures. That is like the gold standard in my mind. Try to remember that Legacy decks get away with 18 lands because they can Brainstorm and Careful Study their way into lands all day long if needed, and they typically only need 1-2 mana to survive since they have access to Entomb + Reanimate. We don't have that luxury. Don't feel like you can cut a ton of lands, you really can't afford to when your plan sometimes involves Buried Alive on turn 3 and Diabolic Servitude on turn 4. 4 lands by turn 4 is important.
In case you don't find Animate Dead, Death is Reanimate on a budget. Stitch Together is horrible - you need seven cards in your garveyard, and unless you cast BA, you're limited to cards you've drawn. If you're dead set on playing it, add some fetches (even budget ones).
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In case you don't find Animate Dead, Death is Reanimate on a budget. Stitch Together is horrible - you need seven cards in your garveyard, and unless you cast BA, you're limited to cards you've drawn. If you're dead set on playing it, add some fetches (even budget ones).
I'll try to find those Animate Dead, I've run Stitch Together in other decks and you're right, it's most often a dead card in hand.
Sickening Dreams fills the role I had Ichor Explosion playing. I know I have a couple of them as well. It's better with more draw though, since I can do real damage rather than just enable the reanimate engine.
Another card that you may want to consider is Insidious Dreams. It's a little slow, which obviously isn't ideal, but it's actually pretty powerful at times. When I play reanimator decks, I play a midrange style of deck kinda like the one that I suggested. Exhume on turn 2 is fine and all, but when you get Swords to Plowshares'd then you kinda feel like you're very behind. What I like about Insidious Dreams is that it's a discard outlet that can stack my deck with draws like Buried Alive + Diabolic Servitude that will give me gas for many turns to come. Now, it's not a card that you want 4 of, but the ability to turn extra lands/drawn creatures into useful upcoming spells has always played decently well for me.
I guess my issue with removal is that it shouldn't ever be needed. The point of playing a reanimator deck is that you should always have the best creature(s) out the fastest. Rather than play real removal, I would consider creatures that do the same thing. Maybe Sheoldred, Whispering One or Massacre Wurm. I'm simply not a fan of playing "Wrath of God" (you know what I mean) in a deck that figures to have the best creatures out.
The first rule of reanimator decks...
... if you're playing creatures that are all colours of the rainbow, make sure you have some way of hardcasting them in case of emergency. This is multiplayer, so you're not going to be Turn 2 Exhuming for the win - you need to keep this deck going for the long haul. I cannot count the number of times I've been in a pickle late-game, and drawn another gorilla instead of the reanimation spell I was searching - in these situations, you need to be able to drop the critter on the board anyway.
So, you're running 22 swamps. I can see absolutely no reason as to why these can't be non-basics - you're not running something reliant on swamp count (like Korlash, Corrupt, Mutilate etc.), so unless your playgroup likes to throw the Price of Progresses or Ruinations around, we should be going for it. You've got some truly hideous triple-colour CCs in here, so I'd be looking at running as many lands as possible that can give you all colours of the rainbow, but always supplying you black mana.
This unfortunately discounts Exotic Orchard and Ancient Ziggurat, which probably would've been my main two recommendations. Definitely need Vivid Marsh. Possibly Rupture Spire. No idea how far your budget and/or cardbase extend, so I'm simply going to say "awesome things like Reflecting Pool if you have them".
Really, if you can get away with running 22 non-basics, you should be.
Tich, interested in your opinion here... is running 22 CITP non-basics worth the sacrifice of not being able to Buried Alive on Turn 1? It probably comes down to the ferocity of the meta you're playing in, but what do you think as an overall principle? This probably governs which non-basics to suggest.
The first rule of reanimator decks...
... if you're playing creatures that are all colours of the rainbow, make sure you have some way of hardcasting them in case of emergency.
I basically couldn't disagree more. This is one of the biggest mistakes that people make (in my opinion). I'm not the kind of guy who likes to plan for the "worst-case scenario." It's just not worth it in multiplayer. You will never win the game where you're playing in a big 8 player game and all 8 of them have dedicated spot removal for your revival targets. You're just going to lose. Being able to cast some of the spells later on doesn't actually solve that. Again, we're talking about a deck with 22 lands (or whatever) trying to cast 7+ mana spells. That, in-of-itself, is absurd. Add in the fact that every land ETBT and you're never going to realistically stabilize by hardcasting your dudes. It's not happening. I would personally never play an ETBT land in a fast reanimator deck (or combo deck in general) simply because it takes away from the deck's core strength (it's speed and power) without significantly improving its chances to win should things go awry. Let's be clear about something, reanimator decks are very risky "all-in" decks. I don't like fielding them in multiplayer, and when I do it's more of a midrange style of deck that uses cards such as Diabolic Servitude since they're not weak to spot/mass removal. If he really wanted this deck to win he'd go with Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and pray to God that he survives a full circuit. As is, he's probably going to always to lose to heavy removal. That's just how these decks work.
Again, the key here is that speed is essential to reanimator decks. I don't think you realize just how much slower decks become if every land in it ETBT. This deck "works" because it gets out the biggest creatures the fastest. When you take away that speed, you take away the very essence of the deck. I'm not going to lie, a turn 5 fatty isn't very impressive considering that Green players can easily have a Primeval Titan or Multani, Maro-Sorcerer out on turn 4. You do not want to be 2-for-1ing yourself to get out a creature that isn't even that special all things considered. And like, a turn 5 fatty isn't unreasonable if he's basically relying on Buried Alive a good chunk of the time. Yeah, he will get the Putrid Imp on turn 2 sometimes (into Exhume on turn 3 or whatever), but it's not an unfair claim to say that he'd realistically be looking at a turn 5 revival a good chunk of the time if every land in his deck ETBT.
Still, what I will say is that it's clear that we have different philosophies and different playstyles, so I'm not surprised that we'd each have completely opposite takes on the situation. Your playgroup is clearly less intense than mine, and so you could realistically play a slower deck and still be in there with a good chance to win. Hell, he might have a better chance since the fast wins wouldn't be likely but the late wins would. It's completely reasonable that he might survive long enough to play his creatures in some metas, even if he is trying to hardcast them for 7+ mana in a land-light deck with nothing but ETBT lands. That seems utterly insane to me, but it could very well be reasonable for the average player.
This. With a reanimator deck, every game is a race, and speed is key to victory. If you have diversified your mana base to where you can hardcast every target, you've moved so far away from the reanimation strategy that you might as well be playing a different deck. Reanimator really only has two variations.
The first is the U/B version, which also happens to be a top tier legacy deck at the moment. It's a little slower than mono black, but the addition of counterspells make it more reliable, and better able to play against opposition. Still, it's goal is to reanimate a creature within the first three turns, and despite being "slow" for reanimator standards, the thought of hardcasting creatures is virtually unthought of. at that point you've already lost.
The second version is the mono black - it only has hand disruption and is very susceptible to hate (both removal and counters), but it trades that reliability to make truly explosive starts - turn three kills are not uncommon with the right build, and i've even managed a few turn two kills, which are obviously not as common, but truly incredible when they happen. With this mono black version, speed is everything. you need to kill/lock down your opponent before they are able to find an answer. The longer the game goes on, the slimmer your chance of victory becomes.
I might suggest checking out the reanimator primer for advice on the mono black version, they have a lot of knowledge and experience there. But if you take one thing away from this thread - speed kills. reanimator is a deck made for ending games quickly.
Okay, let me reword that... first rule of a multiplayer reanimator deck. Sorry, my bad.
Agreed that playing reanimator is a race - it always is.
But at the end of the day, in multiplayer your deck always has the possibility to run into scenarios where you've been slow to start, there's a lot of control on the board, someone top-decked Leyline of the Void and you haven't got an answer for it... etc. etc.
Of course speed is essential, but in multiplayer, you may not always be afforded that speed.
As it stands, both decklists above are packing up and going home if someone resolves Leyline of the Void (and its ilk). In my meta, if I drop a gorilla like any of the suggested reanimation targets here on Turn 2 via Exhume, I quite frankly do not expect it to scalp more than one player - it's simply not going to be allowed to stay on the table that long. And so, our glorious speedy reanimator deck is forced to play the long game.
And that's where my suggestion comes in. If we are forced to play the long game with reanimator in a multiplayer setting, I see absolutely no reason why the mana base shouldn't be a rainbow non-basic one.
Tich, the difference in my meta is not that it's slower - it's that it is full of threat removal. We're power players who are used to having to deal with Turn 2 facesmashers. Basically, if you want to run this deck in a meta full of power players, at the end of the day, you're trying to win with a creature-based strategy, no matter how fast it is. So in multiplayer, you need to be prepared to have a couple of aces up your sleeve to win this way.
TL;DR: Reanimator may be fast, but fast don't cut it in my meta. You need to last out the long game.
Wow, that triggered a more awesome discussion than I thought it would! Continue on, folks! (All for the debate - I have been known to be talked around from blatant stupidity on occasion)
Removal heavy multiplayer games that are prone to dragging on... Sounds like a worst case scenario for reanimator, lol.
Frankly, reanimator just can't do long games - look at it similarly to burn. It's a deck that trades every available resource as fast as possible to get that creature on the board. Can reanimator win long games? yes. Is it ever an optimal circumstance? no. Again, very similar to burn in that respect.
In a meta like yours, the only way i could possibly see reanimator being competitive is to go the U/B route, attempt to reanimate good 'ol Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur as soon as possible, and make sure your deck has 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, and 4 Mental Misstep to keep him on the board until your next turn. Jin can be an absolute house in multiplayer, but the trick is making him stick around... and the mono black version simply wouldn't be capable of doing that in a multiplayer setting.
Likewise, if the game went extremely long, you'd be capable of hardcasting (can't believe i'm suggesting this :tongue:) a good portion of your targets - things like Jin, Inkwell Leviathan, ect.
If i had to use mono black reanimator in that sort of setting, and honestly, i feel that you'd probably have a better shot playing even a preconstructed deck in those circumstances, i would try to take advantage of things that reset the game/board so that you can make the most of your speed, or at least reset things when you run out of steam. Lich's Mirror seems like a possibility here, and may even be suitable for a slower, not heavily developed meta... But again, we're talking about choices that are so far from the optimal setting for reanimator, even the most die-hard reanimator players would likely switch to a different deck.
Edit: In regards to leyline of the void, therein lies the main weakness of mono black reanimator. It's a glass cannon, and there are certain circumstances in which in simply cannot succeed. It's a blindingly fast deck, but that's the unfortunate side of the tradeoff it makes for that speed.
But at the end of the day, in multiplayer your deck always has the possibility to run into scenarios where you've been slow to start, there's a lot of control on the board, someone top-decked Leyline of the Void and you haven't got an answer for it... etc. etc.
Of course speed is essential, but in multiplayer, you may not always be afforded that speed.
Then you lose the game. It's an all-in strategy, if it doesn't work then you're not going to win and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. You won't win every multiplayer game that you play. Chasing games that you can't feasibly win while horribly gimping your deck doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, you may win the odd "long" game, but at the cost of a ton of "short" games that you might have otherwise taken down. It's not even close to a fair exchange.
As it stands, both decklists above are packing up and going home if someone resolves Leyline of the Void (and its ilk).
And how many decks outright lose to Boil? Of course dedicated hate is going to make people lose. That's what it does. I don't see how that's any different from any hate card.
In my meta, if I drop a gorilla like any of the suggested reanimation targets here on Turn 2 via Exhume, I quite frankly do not expect it to scalp more than one player - it's simply not going to be allowed to stay on the table that long. And so, our glorious speedy reanimator deck is forced to play the long game.
Then the real question is why are you playing it at all? If a reanimator deck can't possibly win, why even play it to begin with? I mean, wouldn't a deck with lands and creatures just plain be strictly better?
And that's where my suggestion comes in. If we are forced to play the long game with reanimator in a multiplayer setting, I see absolutely no reason why the mana base shouldn't be a rainbow non-basic one.
What's the point of reanimation spells period? You just want to 2-for-1 yourself or something?
Tich, the difference in my meta is not that it's slower - it's that it is full of threat removal. We're power players who are used to having to deal with Turn 2 facesmashers. Basically, if you want to run this deck in a meta full of power players, at the end of the day, you're trying to win with a creature-based strategy, no matter how fast it is. So in multiplayer, you need to be prepared to have a couple of aces up your sleeve to win this way.
Hardcasting fatties in land-light decks filled with ETBT lands aren't "aces." That's a 7-2 off suit right there. It's like legitimately the worst possible way to try and win the game as far as I'm concerned.
Got you, Tich - balls and all, no guts and no glory, go hard or go home, right?
Though I think you're being a little hard on calling Leyline of the Void a hate card in the league of Boil... aren't you building around this yourself next to Helm of Obedience?
The Johnny part of me likes to be able to see a game out no matter the circumstances (i.e. I may have a 0.00001% of winning, but at least it's a chance) - that's where my line comes from. Still, if we're going to win with creatures, by all means let's flop them on the table on Turn 2 and let people cope with them. Don't get me wrong, I love doing this too - I just don't expect it to win me the game immediately. Probably a by-product of one too many well-aimed Path to Exiles in my meta.
Psionicist, don't laugh at hardcasting Inky - I've actually had to do it before. In a deck with reanimation capabilities. Tells you a bit about my meta, doesn't it?
If Leyline of the Void just so happens to be an important part of your deck, so be it. You're going to lose that game no matter what. The moral of the story is that shouldn't play reanimator if someone is playing a dedicated LotV deck. Again, you're just plain better off playing lands and creatures at that point. Pack up your cards and wait for the next game. Still, I don't think it's unfair at all to put LoTV in the same boat as Boil. Hate is hate, no matter how you look at it. You're not playing Back to Nature or Leyline of the Void because it helps your deck. You're playing those cards to screw over other players. If people are dedicating slots in their deck to hate you out, then there's no reason why you shouldn't return the favor. I remember when my friend started playing with Karma to hate on me. 4x Stench of Evil + enough tutors to consistently find it later and we both silently agreed to never play the cards again. Playing the hate game typically degenerates into M.A.D (mutually assured destruction) so you can usually weed it out over time.
As far as cards like like Path go, if that's the removal of choice then people should really be focusing on the Inkwell Leviathans and Multani, Maro-Sorcerers and whatnot. It's very easy to have 0 targetable perms, which would make the deck much more resilient in removal-heavy metas.
But yeah, I'm basically an "all or nothing" player. It should come as no surprise that if I'm not playing Pox in Legacy, I'm playing Fearless Dredge. Yeah, I auto scoop to Leyline of the Void, and that's a risk I'm willing to take. It's like when someone asked me how one of my deck plays around counters + Surgical Extraction + Back to Nature the other day. My answer, as always, is that "it doesn't." If you wanted to play around everything that people could do to **** you over, you'd wind up with a pathetically weak deck that has tons of conditional cards that may or may not help you play around hate. For me, it all comes down to maximizing my overall win percentage. I will gladly play the deck that wins 55% of the time but is drawing stone dead to Leyline of the Void over the deck that wins 40% of the time but can play around hate. I have no problems scooping up my cards and waiting for the next game if the situation calls for it. I get that some people don't like that "helpless" feeling, but I still wouldn't play my decks any other way. Besides, "Fearless Reanimator" sounds way cooler than "Play Around Removal and Graveyard Hate Reanimator." That has to count for SOMETHING right?
Speaking of which, why aren't some of those sweepers in the OP's decklist? I see no creature removal here whatsoever which is bad. Also, an easy fix is to up your stinkweed imps to 4. I can't stress how wonderful these little guys are in multiplayer.
Because trying to go 1-for-1 against 8 opponents is good use of a deckslot?
I didn't say spot removal, I said sweepers. No matter how good your creatures are or how fast you drop them in play, there will always be times when you need to clean the table. Oh, and I don't think 8 player games happen that much, 6 is the max in my experience.
Speaking of which, why aren't some of those sweepers in the OP's decklist? I see no creature removal here whatsoever which is bad. Also, an easy fix is to up your stinkweed imps to 4. I can't stress how wonderful these little guys are in multiplayer.
I'm running Putrid Imp not Stinkweed Imp. The reasoning on why they're are currently only 2 of them is in the OP.
Why would I run sweepers in a creature-based deck? I'd rather have my opponents kill my creatures than do it myself.
I could see running Steel Hellkite though, since he's a great creature and not overly expensive. The only problem is if my opponents drop a Leyline in the opening hand. Ratchet Bomb might be better there.
2x Putrid Imp
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Blazing Archon
1x Chancellor of the Spires
1x Phyrexian Ingester
1x Moldgraf Monstrosity
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Blood Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Teneb, the Harvester
1x Prince of Thralls
1x Penumbra Wurm
4x Exhume
3x Stitch Together
4x Buried Alive
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Zombify
Instants: 4
4x Makeshift Mannequin
Enchantments: 1
1x Animate Dead
2x Lightning Greaves
Land: 24
24x Swamp
Put the deck together last night. I could only find 1 Animate Dead at my store so it's there for now. I'll replace the Stitch Together with Animate Dead as I find them.
Cabal Therapy is acting as Putrid Imp 3-5. I'll replace them with actual Putrid Imps as I find them. Makeshift Mannequin is a bit better with 2 Shroud creatures to animate with. I think I'll split it with Zombify or just cut it's numbers since it basically determines which creatures I fetch with Buried Alive.
In summary, here are the planned changes:
-3 Cabal Therapy
-3 Stitch Together
-2 Makeshift Mannequin
+2 Putrid Imp
+3 Animate Dead
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
24x Swamp
Creatures (16)
4x Putrid Imp
1x Magmatic Force
1x Chancellor of the Spires
1x Phyrexian Ingester
1x Blazing Archon
1x Moldgraf Monstrosity
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Blood Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Teneb, the Harvester
1x Prince of Thralls
1x Penumbra Wurm
1x Protean Hulk
4x Exhume
4x Animate Dead
4x Buried Alive
2x Beseech the Queen
4x Diabolic Servitude
2x Lightning Greaves
My deck would look something roughly like this. I'm not going to comment on the creatures because I don't really give a ****. It doesn't matter what stupidly overcosted creatures that you use, just pick good ones. Still, things like Blazing Archon and Magmatic Force seem better than some of the **** that you had, so I threw those in there. Anyways, the real focus of your deck needs to be consistency. You want to hit 4 mana by turn 4 in this deck, so 24 lands is a priority. Secondly, Stitch Together is just so much worse than Animate Dead that it has to be swapped in my mind. Makeshift Mannequin is no good. It's fine if you're reviving an Emrakul at instant speed with the shuffle trigger on the stack, but otherwise the card has no place in a standard reanimator deck. Diabolic Servitude is really, really good. It makes creature removal so much less effective against you, and makes Buried Alive that much better. I highly recommend it. I bumped Putrid Imp up to 4, since he's pretty baller, and added some Beseech the Queens to hopefully increase the deck's overall consistency. Again, this is sorta what I would run if I were in your situation. If nothing else I want to implore that you consider my deck's overall ratios. 24 lands (only if you have 4 CMC reanimate spells such as Diabolic Sevitude though), 12 reanimation spells, 15-16 creatures. That is like the gold standard in my mind. Try to remember that Legacy decks get away with 18 lands because they can Brainstorm and Careful Study their way into lands all day long if needed, and they typically only need 1-2 mana to survive since they have access to Entomb + Reanimate. We don't have that luxury. Don't feel like you can cut a ton of lands, you really can't afford to when your plan sometimes involves Buried Alive on turn 3 and Diabolic Servitude on turn 4. 4 lands by turn 4 is important.
EDIT: Just want to point out that Makeshift Mannequin is especially horrible in a deck with Lightning Greaves. The card (MM) is abysmal if you're not reviving something like Inkwell Leviathan or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that can't easily be targeted (if at all).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'll change the numbers tonight.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
I'll try to find those Animate Dead, I've run Stitch Together in other decks and you're right, it's most often a dead card in hand.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
Last Rites. It's a fun way to get rid of their hate while knowing what to play around.
Sickening Dreams. Nice boardwipe
A buddy of mine has a casual Reanimator deck, and with those cards it works pretty well.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
I guess my issue with removal is that it shouldn't ever be needed. The point of playing a reanimator deck is that you should always have the best creature(s) out the fastest. Rather than play real removal, I would consider creatures that do the same thing. Maybe Sheoldred, Whispering One or Massacre Wurm. I'm simply not a fan of playing "Wrath of God" (you know what I mean) in a deck that figures to have the best creatures out.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
... if you're playing creatures that are all colours of the rainbow, make sure you have some way of hardcasting them in case of emergency. This is multiplayer, so you're not going to be Turn 2 Exhuming for the win - you need to keep this deck going for the long haul. I cannot count the number of times I've been in a pickle late-game, and drawn another gorilla instead of the reanimation spell I was searching - in these situations, you need to be able to drop the critter on the board anyway.
So, you're running 22 swamps. I can see absolutely no reason as to why these can't be non-basics - you're not running something reliant on swamp count (like Korlash, Corrupt, Mutilate etc.), so unless your playgroup likes to throw the Price of Progresses or Ruinations around, we should be going for it. You've got some truly hideous triple-colour CCs in here, so I'd be looking at running as many lands as possible that can give you all colours of the rainbow, but always supplying you black mana.
This unfortunately discounts Exotic Orchard and Ancient Ziggurat, which probably would've been my main two recommendations. Definitely need Vivid Marsh. Possibly Rupture Spire. No idea how far your budget and/or cardbase extend, so I'm simply going to say "awesome things like Reflecting Pool if you have them".
Really, if you can get away with running 22 non-basics, you should be.
Tich, interested in your opinion here... is running 22 CITP non-basics worth the sacrifice of not being able to Buried Alive on Turn 1? It probably comes down to the ferocity of the meta you're playing in, but what do you think as an overall principle? This probably governs which non-basics to suggest.
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I basically couldn't disagree more. This is one of the biggest mistakes that people make (in my opinion). I'm not the kind of guy who likes to plan for the "worst-case scenario." It's just not worth it in multiplayer. You will never win the game where you're playing in a big 8 player game and all 8 of them have dedicated spot removal for your revival targets. You're just going to lose. Being able to cast some of the spells later on doesn't actually solve that. Again, we're talking about a deck with 22 lands (or whatever) trying to cast 7+ mana spells. That, in-of-itself, is absurd. Add in the fact that every land ETBT and you're never going to realistically stabilize by hardcasting your dudes. It's not happening. I would personally never play an ETBT land in a fast reanimator deck (or combo deck in general) simply because it takes away from the deck's core strength (it's speed and power) without significantly improving its chances to win should things go awry. Let's be clear about something, reanimator decks are very risky "all-in" decks. I don't like fielding them in multiplayer, and when I do it's more of a midrange style of deck that uses cards such as Diabolic Servitude since they're not weak to spot/mass removal. If he really wanted this deck to win he'd go with Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and pray to God that he survives a full circuit. As is, he's probably going to always to lose to heavy removal. That's just how these decks work.
Again, the key here is that speed is essential to reanimator decks. I don't think you realize just how much slower decks become if every land in it ETBT. This deck "works" because it gets out the biggest creatures the fastest. When you take away that speed, you take away the very essence of the deck. I'm not going to lie, a turn 5 fatty isn't very impressive considering that Green players can easily have a Primeval Titan or Multani, Maro-Sorcerer out on turn 4. You do not want to be 2-for-1ing yourself to get out a creature that isn't even that special all things considered. And like, a turn 5 fatty isn't unreasonable if he's basically relying on Buried Alive a good chunk of the time. Yeah, he will get the Putrid Imp on turn 2 sometimes (into Exhume on turn 3 or whatever), but it's not an unfair claim to say that he'd realistically be looking at a turn 5 revival a good chunk of the time if every land in his deck ETBT.
Still, what I will say is that it's clear that we have different philosophies and different playstyles, so I'm not surprised that we'd each have completely opposite takes on the situation. Your playgroup is clearly less intense than mine, and so you could realistically play a slower deck and still be in there with a good chance to win. Hell, he might have a better chance since the fast wins wouldn't be likely but the late wins would. It's completely reasonable that he might survive long enough to play his creatures in some metas, even if he is trying to hardcast them for 7+ mana in a land-light deck with nothing but ETBT lands. That seems utterly insane to me, but it could very well be reasonable for the average player.
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This. With a reanimator deck, every game is a race, and speed is key to victory. If you have diversified your mana base to where you can hardcast every target, you've moved so far away from the reanimation strategy that you might as well be playing a different deck. Reanimator really only has two variations.
The first is the U/B version, which also happens to be a top tier legacy deck at the moment. It's a little slower than mono black, but the addition of counterspells make it more reliable, and better able to play against opposition. Still, it's goal is to reanimate a creature within the first three turns, and despite being "slow" for reanimator standards, the thought of hardcasting creatures is virtually unthought of. at that point you've already lost.
The second version is the mono black - it only has hand disruption and is very susceptible to hate (both removal and counters), but it trades that reliability to make truly explosive starts - turn three kills are not uncommon with the right build, and i've even managed a few turn two kills, which are obviously not as common, but truly incredible when they happen. With this mono black version, speed is everything. you need to kill/lock down your opponent before they are able to find an answer. The longer the game goes on, the slimmer your chance of victory becomes.
I might suggest checking out the reanimator primer for advice on the mono black version, they have a lot of knowledge and experience there. But if you take one thing away from this thread - speed kills. reanimator is a deck made for ending games quickly.
Agreed that playing reanimator is a race - it always is.
But at the end of the day, in multiplayer your deck always has the possibility to run into scenarios where you've been slow to start, there's a lot of control on the board, someone top-decked Leyline of the Void and you haven't got an answer for it... etc. etc.
Of course speed is essential, but in multiplayer, you may not always be afforded that speed.
As it stands, both decklists above are packing up and going home if someone resolves Leyline of the Void (and its ilk). In my meta, if I drop a gorilla like any of the suggested reanimation targets here on Turn 2 via Exhume, I quite frankly do not expect it to scalp more than one player - it's simply not going to be allowed to stay on the table that long. And so, our glorious speedy reanimator deck is forced to play the long game.
And that's where my suggestion comes in. If we are forced to play the long game with reanimator in a multiplayer setting, I see absolutely no reason why the mana base shouldn't be a rainbow non-basic one.
Tich, the difference in my meta is not that it's slower - it's that it is full of threat removal. We're power players who are used to having to deal with Turn 2 facesmashers. Basically, if you want to run this deck in a meta full of power players, at the end of the day, you're trying to win with a creature-based strategy, no matter how fast it is. So in multiplayer, you need to be prepared to have a couple of aces up your sleeve to win this way.
TL;DR: Reanimator may be fast, but fast don't cut it in my meta. You need to last out the long game.
Wow, that triggered a more awesome discussion than I thought it would! Continue on, folks! (All for the debate - I have been known to be talked around from blatant stupidity on occasion)
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Frankly, reanimator just can't do long games - look at it similarly to burn. It's a deck that trades every available resource as fast as possible to get that creature on the board. Can reanimator win long games? yes. Is it ever an optimal circumstance? no. Again, very similar to burn in that respect.
In a meta like yours, the only way i could possibly see reanimator being competitive is to go the U/B route, attempt to reanimate good 'ol Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur as soon as possible, and make sure your deck has 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, and 4 Mental Misstep to keep him on the board until your next turn. Jin can be an absolute house in multiplayer, but the trick is making him stick around... and the mono black version simply wouldn't be capable of doing that in a multiplayer setting.
Likewise, if the game went extremely long, you'd be capable of hardcasting (can't believe i'm suggesting this :tongue:) a good portion of your targets - things like Jin, Inkwell Leviathan, ect.
If i had to use mono black reanimator in that sort of setting, and honestly, i feel that you'd probably have a better shot playing even a preconstructed deck in those circumstances, i would try to take advantage of things that reset the game/board so that you can make the most of your speed, or at least reset things when you run out of steam. Lich's Mirror seems like a possibility here, and may even be suitable for a slower, not heavily developed meta... But again, we're talking about choices that are so far from the optimal setting for reanimator, even the most die-hard reanimator players would likely switch to a different deck.
Edit: In regards to leyline of the void, therein lies the main weakness of mono black reanimator. It's a glass cannon, and there are certain circumstances in which in simply cannot succeed. It's a blindingly fast deck, but that's the unfortunate side of the tradeoff it makes for that speed.
Then you lose the game. It's an all-in strategy, if it doesn't work then you're not going to win and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. You won't win every multiplayer game that you play. Chasing games that you can't feasibly win while horribly gimping your deck doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, you may win the odd "long" game, but at the cost of a ton of "short" games that you might have otherwise taken down. It's not even close to a fair exchange.
And how many decks outright lose to Boil? Of course dedicated hate is going to make people lose. That's what it does. I don't see how that's any different from any hate card.
Then the real question is why are you playing it at all? If a reanimator deck can't possibly win, why even play it to begin with? I mean, wouldn't a deck with lands and creatures just plain be strictly better?
What's the point of reanimation spells period? You just want to 2-for-1 yourself or something?
Hardcasting fatties in land-light decks filled with ETBT lands aren't "aces." That's a 7-2 off suit right there. It's like legitimately the worst possible way to try and win the game as far as I'm concerned.
It doesn't.
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Though I think you're being a little hard on calling Leyline of the Void a hate card in the league of Boil... aren't you building around this yourself next to Helm of Obedience?
The Johnny part of me likes to be able to see a game out no matter the circumstances (i.e. I may have a 0.00001% of winning, but at least it's a chance) - that's where my line comes from. Still, if we're going to win with creatures, by all means let's flop them on the table on Turn 2 and let people cope with them. Don't get me wrong, I love doing this too - I just don't expect it to win me the game immediately. Probably a by-product of one too many well-aimed Path to Exiles in my meta.
Psionicist, don't laugh at hardcasting Inky - I've actually had to do it before. In a deck with reanimation capabilities. Tells you a bit about my meta, doesn't it?
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As far as cards like like Path go, if that's the removal of choice then people should really be focusing on the Inkwell Leviathans and Multani, Maro-Sorcerers and whatnot. It's very easy to have 0 targetable perms, which would make the deck much more resilient in removal-heavy metas.
But yeah, I'm basically an "all or nothing" player. It should come as no surprise that if I'm not playing Pox in Legacy, I'm playing Fearless Dredge. Yeah, I auto scoop to Leyline of the Void, and that's a risk I'm willing to take. It's like when someone asked me how one of my deck plays around counters + Surgical Extraction + Back to Nature the other day. My answer, as always, is that "it doesn't." If you wanted to play around everything that people could do to **** you over, you'd wind up with a pathetically weak deck that has tons of conditional cards that may or may not help you play around hate. For me, it all comes down to maximizing my overall win percentage. I will gladly play the deck that wins 55% of the time but is drawing stone dead to Leyline of the Void over the deck that wins 40% of the time but can play around hate. I have no problems scooping up my cards and waiting for the next game if the situation calls for it. I get that some people don't like that "helpless" feeling, but I still wouldn't play my decks any other way. Besides, "Fearless Reanimator" sounds way cooler than "Play Around Removal and Graveyard Hate Reanimator." That has to count for SOMETHING right?
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In case I do face Leyline of the Void, is there any real way to protect against it? Black doesn't really have a way to deal with enchantments.
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Well, you need some kind of removal in any deck, at least that is my rule of thumb for multiplayer decks.
Because trying to go 1-for-1 against 8 opponents is good use of a deckslot?
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I didn't say spot removal, I said sweepers. No matter how good your creatures are or how fast you drop them in play, there will always be times when you need to clean the table. Oh, and I don't think 8 player games happen that much, 6 is the max in my experience.
I'm running Putrid Imp not Stinkweed Imp. The reasoning on why they're are currently only 2 of them is in the OP.
Why would I run sweepers in a creature-based deck? I'd rather have my opponents kill my creatures than do it myself.
I could see running Steel Hellkite though, since he's a great creature and not overly expensive. The only problem is if my opponents drop a Leyline in the opening hand. Ratchet Bomb might be better there.
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Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts