I use Land Grant for pure style points. It feels so old school and awesome. I don't recommend running it for that reason, though.
Using your pump spells correctly will mitigate a lot of the problems from of having 1-toughness guys. The way most people use their removal spells is right before the damage step (to wait as long as possible in order to have the most information). This is a convenient time to play a pump spell. In any case, damage-based removal hasn't been a big issue for me personally. Trading 1-1 is not that bad.
Well, Mandrills are bad when compared to Become Immense is probably what I meant to say. The apes were just another creature (bigger and with trample, but still just a fragile creature). Become Immense is a game-ending spell that helps you through tough combat situations. +6/+6 is actually MASSIVE. The cost of both cards makes Become Immense much more appropriate for the deck as well, as you generally want to cast it in the last couple turns of the game. For Hooting Mandrills, you want to play it early on, but its cost is not conducive to that. In general, timing a good Become Immense is easier than landing a good ape that will matter. I'd sooner run Battalion again than use Hooting Mandrills, as it's just easier to cast.
I use Land Grant for pure style points. It feels so old school and awesome. I don't recommend running it for that reason, though.
Yeah, me too. I don't play the deck too seriously. That said, I might as well turn a pure liability (Land Grant) into something that can provide extra value. I missed Delve cards among the possible benefits.
Did you ultimately veto Battalion due to its prerequisite? I was hoping that 8 free spells would be enough to run 2 Battalions. I could always add some Probes (and maybe up the Delve spells to 2).
Using your pump spells correctly will mitigate a lot of the problems from of having 1-toughness guys. The way most people use their removal spells is right before the damage step (to wait as long as possible in order to have the most information). This is a convenient time to play a pump spell. In any case, damage-based removal hasn't been a big issue for me personally. Trading 1-1 is not that bad.
I'll have to try being a little more cautious with my pump, but I'm concerned with effects like Forked Bolt, Golgari Charm, Jitte, and other multiple or recurring removal threats. I don't want to get "machine-gunned" down too easily. With regards to */1s, we have quite a bit of pump that only adds 2 toughness in the worst case, and that doesn't save an */1 creature from a Bolt, which is pretty common all the way from the kitchen table to competitive decks. Trading 1-1 is not bad, but trading 1-2 is more and more likely with smaller pump and smaller guys.
I don't think most people would Bolt a 2/1, honestly. Seems like a waste of a 3-damage spell. It's things like Forked Bolt and Jitte that are a problem. Do they actually come up often, or is it just a phobia of yours?
Talara's Battalion needs you to play a Green spell specifically, so Probe actually doesn't help in that respect.
I like Battalion a lot. It has won me games. It has also been stuck in my hand more often than I would like. However, at the time I was playing it, I was also running Bounty of the Hunt instead of Mutagenic Growth, which made it really awkward when those were the two last cards in my hand. Maybe with Growth it will actually be a lot easier to cast.
Yeah, I'm saying that they'll Bolt in response to pump, leading to a 2-for-1 in their favor. Or they could Swords, Terror, etc. The idea is that using pretty much any pump can open you up to a 2-for-1 ... unless you know from Probe that they can't.
Good point on Battalion needing a green spell though. Probe indeed does not work. I wonder if there are Convoke spells worth maindecking. I'm guessing no or else we'd run them already heh.
If you only use your pump spells reactively or to end the game, this scenario will rarely happen. If the opponent is capable of 2-1 me in combat or to prevent him/herself from losing, they probably deserve to win that altercation!
Gather Courage was mentioned as a "free" spell. I personally don't like it at all, but I could see it being good when you have a creature with summoning sickness that can be used. Other than that, it seems pretty mediocre. As for other playable Convoke spells, Sundering Vitae might be ok... Nothing spectacular.
Convoke spells actually work pretty well with Quirion Ranger... Tap the Ranger to pay convoke, tap a land for mana, return a land to hand, untap Ranger, tap Ranger for convoke, play land, tap land for mana. That's 4 mana right there... Interesting! That opens up opportunities for things like a turn 2 Living Totem or Turn 3 Scatter the Seeds.
With a bunch of weenies, it's been my experience that we often have to pump to win in combat, i.e. we can't always pump in response to something else. If they had two 3/3s, would you not attack your four mixed 2/1s and 2/2s into that?
Gather Courage is nice but is yet more +2/+2 pump. Perhaps it's worth it with Sylvan Library: our cards don't need that much impact if we simply have more of them. I'd note that Nettle Sentinel and Quirion Ranger can both provide untapped creatures for Convoking, so there's that. Probably still not playable though. If Battalion is a liability with 4 Land Grants and 4 Mutagenic Growths, I'll simply drop the Battalions. I hope I don't have to though, as I like Trample with Might of Old Krosa.
I'm quite certain that you can't cast Living Totem on turn 2 the way you outlined though, for two reasons. You can't use non-mana activated abilities and play land while paying for a spell, and relatedly you can't tap a single creature twice for a single Convoked spell to reduce the mana costs by two.
Update: I'm still convinced that this deck is inferior to Infect in Legacy, but my recent changes have turned it into a serious casual competitor, and the price/performance ratio is great.
How often does Become Immense work, with four Dryad Militants eating Instants and Sorceries? You're unlikely to lose Forests, and in my limited testing tonight you don't get that many critters in the yard. Even ESG exiles itself. I should keep track of my yard size to see how well it would work if I ran them.
I was so wrong about doubting Mutagenic Growth. It's freaking awesome. I had 7 damage on board, my opponent said "take," and three Mutagenics and a Groundswell for 4 later, that was 17 for lethal. You don't draw 3 Mutagenic Growths every game, but it's pretty nuts when you do. Hello Green Fireblast.
Groundswell is also great. With 4 Quirion Rangers I'm always bouncing land. I'll pretty much be laying a land every turn of every game, so an untapped land is always threatening +4 power on an attack, and +3 on defense (Giant Growth).
I have enough land in late games that I'm also considering adding a single Rogue Elephant back in. It's not the sort of thing I want to draw before turn 3 though.
Pendelhaven is great. It allows me to play 1/1 Pit-Skulks without worry when having an extra body is worth more than maximizing value.
Re: Drawing, I only have one Warriors' Lesson so far but on roughly half of my attacks a Lesson would net two cards. Yes Library is better, but like I've said I'm trying to keep a budget build and I think I'd rather run 2-3 Lessons than more generic beaters and pump. I'm willing to try it and be proven wrong again though.
Don't expect to use Become Immense in the first few turns of the game. You'll be very disappointed. In my own version, I can usually gather 1-2 spells in the graveyard before Militant enters (Land Grant on turn 1, etc.). I do try to play other beaters before Militant, unless I'm facing a deck that uses the graveyard. From there, it's very common to lose 1-2 creatures in trades. At that point, Become Immense costs something like 2 mana. If it's turn 4-6, this is a very reasonable cost for a finisher. If I didn't play any Militants, it can go as low as G for +6/+6. I don't think I've ever played it before turn 4 (and I don't think I would want to, either). I don't think I've paid more than 2G for a Become Immense yet.
I'm really liking the deck. Possible improvements:
1) I'm not convinced by MoOK, now that Landfallen-Groundswell has been firing so consistently. Considering turning them a Giant Growth and either Groundswell or Become Immense.
2) I'll see if I can convince myself to bling out this deck with Sylvan Libraries. If so, I'll be more tempted to run Vault Skirges to help offset life loss, which would in turn put them in three of my Pauper decks. Maybe -3 Lesson, -1 Ranger, -1 Jungle Lion, -1 Pump, +2 Library, +4 Skirge. It pains me to remove the mono-green purity of the current list, but Pendelhaven-Skirge is a rather tasty combo.
3) Worb conflicts with Dryad Arbor, so I might drop Arbor. Using Land Grant to find creatures and endlessly blocking Goyfs by Ranger-bouncing are such neat tricks though. If I remove a Ranger for Sylvan Library, I'll likely have to remove Arbor.
The only 2-mana critter in my list is a 4-power trampler, so I'm really unconvinced. While power-based unblockability is great, I'm not sure I'm willing to double the cost to get it. The fact that it's yet another 2/1 is quite relevant in a deck with a bunch of */1s. Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Electrickery are all cards that see actual play, and dropping Bounty of the Hunt further increases our susceptibility to such cards. Let us know if it ends up pulling its weight, and give us your list if you please. I wonder how many 2-drops you have.
Speaking of borderline playable cards, I actually briefly considered Bonded Construct, but its drawback makes it unplayable in most decks. I wonder if it's a Pauper Stompy option.
List update: starting from my last post above, I'm now running -3 Warrior's Lesson, +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Groundswell. I got some Warrior's Lessons and am interested in trying it out some more, but Library is hard to beat when it comes to refilling.
The only 2-mana critter in my list is a 4-power trampler, so I'm really unconvinced. While power-based unblockability is great, I'm not sure I'm willing to double the cost to get it.
I definitely hear you. He's never 'just' 1G though.. At minimum, he is always1GG. And, ask anyone playing BFZ Limited, there will be times when he is completely dead. Yikes. Not saying Battlion isn't pound-for-pound better, he probably is. Just sayin...he's not quite that good. He has issues like same as most.
(List below) My only two-drop, currently, is Silhana Ledgewalker. I still run this guy principally because of his evasion over his Hexproof although that is not bad either. I have been looking for a better 2-drop, if I have to run one. This guy is one, and (unlike Battalion) is every time.
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List update: starting from my last post above, I'm now running -3 Warrior's Lesson, +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Groundswell. I got some Warrior's Lessons and am interested in trying it out some more, but Library is hard to beat when it comes to refilling.
Sylvan Libary >(>>>>>) All, imo. I will *never* take them out.
I built this thing several years ago and I've just recently made a few changes (most notably the "Phybrid"cards) Sentinel/Elite split just b/c I need to pick up 2 Sentinels but Elites aren't exactly 'terrible' either.
I don't ever really get the chance to test it much. Looking at it now, honestly, it looks like a bit of a pile. Help would be very welcome indeed--this thing has been a mess for a while now, honestly.
Yes, I am actually running a Black Lotus in 10-Land Stompy. .....In casual games.
He's never 'just' 1G though.. At minimum, he is always1GG.
I used to run Manamorphose and Land Grant to support Battalion. Now it's Mutagenic Growth and Land Grant. 8 cards to support 2, and ensure that I can cast it with two lands (or Land+Ranger). By the time I'm likely to draw a Battalion and want to cast it, even if I don't have one of those 8 (or I had to use them already), it's generally not too hard to find 3 land (or again, 2+Ranger). I totally agree that it's a potential liability, but it honestly hasn't been a problem so far in my build. I look forward to testing it out further though.
P.S. What are your lands? I like being techy so I'm running Arbor and Pendlehaven. I expect you wouldn't, since you aren't running Quirion Ranger. Also, isn't Ranger great with Winter Orb? I'm a little surprised you aren't running any at all with 2 maindeck Worbs.
P.S. I love that you're keeping the dream alive with the 2 Bounties. I love that card so much, and even run the full sets of ESG and Land Grant to support it, but I'm afraid of the card disadvantage and am in less need of free pumps due to my Quirion Ranger shenanigans.
That is some slippery ***** w/Battalion.. Haha. I doff my hat, sir.
Dammit. I *knew* I wanted Ranger back in there. She has always been my nearly-favorite/MVP in the deck but somewhere along the line I became convinced (I think it was probably in this thread, honestly) that she was just not worth it anymore.. She does feel very 'techie' and that was a bit of a problem with this deck (not just her either--Land Grants and Vine Dryads too.. It was all becoming very full of two-card dependencies that consistency was becoming a VERY real problem---so I decided to streamline things a bit.)
I do recall now that taking out Groundswell was another big whack against her--I used that trick A LOT with her.
I will try and find a way to sneak her back in. So SO many good tricks with her in this deck, agreed.
Our lists are quite divergent, but you could try starting from something like my non-powered list. It has surprise mana from not only Elvish Spirit Guide but also Quirion Ranger-Dryad Arbor. Infiniblocking from Ranger-Arbor bouncing. Pendelhaven to help with the relatively high number of 1/1s. Land Grant-Arbor for extra late-game attackers.
I like decks with a lot of card interactions, so I built it this way to allow that breadth of capability. I agree that strict dependencies are generally bad, but enabling the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts is wonderful.
Anyway, others have also been dropping Ranger in the recent past (Upkeep perhaps?). Four is likely too many for some builds but 2-3 could be worth testing. I'm all in on Pendelhaven/Arbor/Groundswell/Nettle Sentinel/etc. so I'm ok running 4.
EDIT: Some more notes about dependencies and vulnerability: I wouldn't play Land Grant seriously in an environment that also contains Force of Will; it's mostly there for old school flavor. Vine Dryad and Bounty of the Hunt are a little too greedy for my tastes, but without them there was little reason to run Land Grants. Mutagenic Growth allows for Battalion, which allows for Land Grant, which allows for Dryad Arbor, which allows for Pendelhaven ... Is it too cute? I don't care; I love it.
I think you're running way too few creatures. I'd bump up to 4 Elite and Sentinels. You should have enough mana sources (I'm assuming your last 9 cards are forests) to use Talara's Battalion or another 2-drop creature. I'd think about cutting the Seal of Strengths for more creatures, as well as bounty of the hunt.
The more I look at it, the more this looks like an Infect-Stompy hybrid. When thinking of Infect, the "fewer creatures, more pump" design comes through, as does the free pump like Bounty to stack onto a guy before Berserk.
IMO that's a fine way to build the deck for flavor and best-case explosiveness, but it straddles the line uncomfortably between Infect and Stompy. You have fewer creatures than Stompy, but you don't have the Vines of Vastwood, countermagic, and Gitaxian Probes to plan around and defend against your opponent's disruption. Removal on your creatures is not only more significant due to a lighter threat density, but more likely to be a blowout because the deck naturally wants to stack pump spells, opening the door for an x-for-1 play from the opponent. At the same time, you require your deck to deal twice as much damage as an Infect deck would need to do.
I don't want to be too negative here, because this deck obviously can pull off awesome wins and you've spent a lot of effort pimping it out. That said, I'd suggest making two decks: put your power into an Infect deck to optimize the explosiveness while adding some resiliency, and making an unpowered Stompy deck like mine that has all the interactions that you also seem to enjoy.
Right on, guys. You're not being negative and I'm not gonna get my feelings hurt. This feedback is totally sweet and I really appreciate it.
I've got a monoblack Infect deck that has killed on T3 so I'm decidedly interested in not seeking Infect approach here. My goal is classic 10-Land Stompy, I just took it slightly further w/power.
Like I said, I built this thing years ago with (at the time) state-of-the-art tech and I've made incremental changes in technology over the years. But with most super-tight-interaction decks like this, once you make a single change, it has unintended consequences elsewhere. Over time, it's drifted from its original focus and that's why it feels like it's pulling in diff directions. It would be a very useful exercise to re-ground it. I'm not particularly wed to any card in the list either. Tech comes and goes--I'd be happy to catch up with best practices.
May I please see your list? I'm quite happy to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' as they say..
I got a couple but haven't put any in yet. I would replace my fourth Groundswell with a single Immense, as I absolutely never want to see two in a game. As I posted before I'm a little concerned about Dryad Militant chewing up our pump spells and Land Grants. With the consistency in land drops granted by Quirion Ranger, it's just hard to say no to Groundswell. I'm not sure this post is useful. Let us know how it performs if you try it!
I want to suggest and then try to talk myself out of Blisterpod. Two creatures, two toughness, and two power for a single green. In most ways, having a single 2/2 would be better. However, we could taunt the opponent into bad blocks even more effectively with 1/1s. Also, I run Pendelhaven. Also, we want to go wide anyway, right? (Compare to Infect's "taller" version of guys+pump, where they usually only have 1-3 guys.)
Re: my sig, maybe Quirion Ranger #4 and Jungle Lion #4 for two of these. If they turn out awesome, maybe even more Lions could become pods.
Blisterpod I'm not sure on, but it's worth a look at least. My 10 land stompy is commons only and I thought of this card too. It's hard to recommend it over a 2/1+ or a 1/1 with evasion type items we already have, simply because we rush so early, that 1 extra damage always helps. Plus the scion's 1 mana isn't very useful in most builds.
I think it's worth a partial test though. Thanks for looking at it.
Using your pump spells correctly will mitigate a lot of the problems from of having 1-toughness guys. The way most people use their removal spells is right before the damage step (to wait as long as possible in order to have the most information). This is a convenient time to play a pump spell. In any case, damage-based removal hasn't been a big issue for me personally. Trading 1-1 is not that bad.
Well, Mandrills are bad when compared to Become Immense is probably what I meant to say. The apes were just another creature (bigger and with trample, but still just a fragile creature). Become Immense is a game-ending spell that helps you through tough combat situations. +6/+6 is actually MASSIVE. The cost of both cards makes Become Immense much more appropriate for the deck as well, as you generally want to cast it in the last couple turns of the game. For Hooting Mandrills, you want to play it early on, but its cost is not conducive to that. In general, timing a good Become Immense is easier than landing a good ape that will matter. I'd sooner run Battalion again than use Hooting Mandrills, as it's just easier to cast.
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Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Yeah, me too. I don't play the deck too seriously. That said, I might as well turn a pure liability (Land Grant) into something that can provide extra value. I missed Delve cards among the possible benefits.
Did you ultimately veto Battalion due to its prerequisite? I was hoping that 8 free spells would be enough to run 2 Battalions. I could always add some Probes (and maybe up the Delve spells to 2).
I'll have to try being a little more cautious with my pump, but I'm concerned with effects like Forked Bolt, Golgari Charm, Jitte, and other multiple or recurring removal threats. I don't want to get "machine-gunned" down too easily. With regards to */1s, we have quite a bit of pump that only adds 2 toughness in the worst case, and that doesn't save an */1 creature from a Bolt, which is pretty common all the way from the kitchen table to competitive decks. Trading 1-1 is not bad, but trading 1-2 is more and more likely with smaller pump and smaller guys.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Talara's Battalion needs you to play a Green spell specifically, so Probe actually doesn't help in that respect.
I like Battalion a lot. It has won me games. It has also been stuck in my hand more often than I would like. However, at the time I was playing it, I was also running Bounty of the Hunt instead of Mutagenic Growth, which made it really awkward when those were the two last cards in my hand. Maybe with Growth it will actually be a lot easier to cast.
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Good point on Battalion needing a green spell though. Probe indeed does not work. I wonder if there are Convoke spells worth maindecking. I'm guessing no or else we'd run them already heh.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Gather Courage was mentioned as a "free" spell. I personally don't like it at all, but I could see it being good when you have a creature with summoning sickness that can be used. Other than that, it seems pretty mediocre. As for other playable Convoke spells, Sundering Vitae might be ok... Nothing spectacular.
Convoke spells actually work pretty well with Quirion Ranger... Tap the Ranger to pay convoke, tap a land for mana, return a land to hand, untap Ranger, tap Ranger for convoke, play land, tap land for mana. That's 4 mana right there... Interesting! That opens up opportunities for things like a turn 2 Living Totem or Turn 3 Scatter the Seeds.
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UB Ramses OverdarkUB
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Gather Courage is nice but is yet more +2/+2 pump. Perhaps it's worth it with Sylvan Library: our cards don't need that much impact if we simply have more of them. I'd note that Nettle Sentinel and Quirion Ranger can both provide untapped creatures for Convoking, so there's that. Probably still not playable though. If Battalion is a liability with 4 Land Grants and 4 Mutagenic Growths, I'll simply drop the Battalions. I hope I don't have to though, as I like Trample with Might of Old Krosa.
I'm quite certain that you can't cast Living Totem on turn 2 the way you outlined though, for two reasons. You can't use non-mana activated abilities and play land while paying for a spell, and relatedly you can't tap a single creature twice for a single Convoked spell to reduce the mana costs by two.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
How often does Become Immense work, with four Dryad Militants eating Instants and Sorceries? You're unlikely to lose Forests, and in my limited testing tonight you don't get that many critters in the yard. Even ESG exiles itself. I should keep track of my yard size to see how well it would work if I ran them.
I was so wrong about doubting Mutagenic Growth. It's freaking awesome. I had 7 damage on board, my opponent said "take," and three Mutagenics and a Groundswell for 4 later, that was 17 for lethal. You don't draw 3 Mutagenic Growths every game, but it's pretty nuts when you do. Hello Green Fireblast.
Groundswell is also great. With 4 Quirion Rangers I'm always bouncing land. I'll pretty much be laying a land every turn of every game, so an untapped land is always threatening +4 power on an attack, and +3 on defense (Giant Growth).
I have enough land in late games that I'm also considering adding a single Rogue Elephant back in. It's not the sort of thing I want to draw before turn 3 though.
Pendelhaven is great. It allows me to play 1/1 Pit-Skulks without worry when having an extra body is worth more than maximizing value.
Re: Drawing, I only have one Warriors' Lesson so far but on roughly half of my attacks a Lesson would net two cards. Yes Library is better, but like I've said I'm trying to keep a budget build and I think I'd rather run 2-3 Lessons than more generic beaters and pump. I'm willing to try it and be proven wrong again though.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I love it when cutting cards becomes difficult, because it means everything is pulling its weight. My current list:
8 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
// "Land"
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Land Grant
4 Dryad Militant
4 Jungle Lion
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Talara's Battalion
// Pump and Utility
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
3 Groundswell
3 Warriors' Lesson
2 Giant Growth
2 Might of Old Krosa
2 Winter Orb
I'm really liking the deck. Possible improvements:
1) I'm not convinced by MoOK, now that Landfallen-Groundswell has been firing so consistently. Considering turning them a Giant Growth and either Groundswell or Become Immense.
2) I'll see if I can convince myself to bling out this deck with Sylvan Libraries. If so, I'll be more tempted to run Vault Skirges to help offset life loss, which would in turn put them in three of my Pauper decks. Maybe -3 Lesson, -1 Ranger, -1 Jungle Lion, -1 Pump, +2 Library, +4 Skirge. It pains me to remove the mono-green purity of the current list, but Pendelhaven-Skirge is a rather tasty combo.
3) Worb conflicts with Dryad Arbor, so I might drop Arbor. Using Land Grant to find creatures and endlessly blocking Goyfs by Ranger-bouncing are such neat tricks though. If I remove a Ranger for Sylvan Library, I'll likely have to remove Arbor.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
So today I noticed Den Protector. Reminds me of Skarrgan Pit-Skulk if I tilt my head and squint a bit..
I plan to literally never use the Megamorph but in some super grindy matches....maybe?
I've played this deck for over a decade, so believe me, I really do understand how G vs 1G is a very big bar to cross.
Still, Pit-Skulk is one of THE best beaters in this deck in my experience. I'd love to have "Pit-Skulk #5=8" a lot of games..
Just caught my eye. Anybody ever tried him out here? I think I'm gonna..
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Speaking of borderline playable cards, I actually briefly considered Bonded Construct, but its drawback makes it unplayable in most decks. I wonder if it's a Pauper Stompy option.
List update: starting from my last post above, I'm now running -3 Warrior's Lesson, +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Groundswell. I got some Warrior's Lessons and am interested in trying it out some more, but Library is hard to beat when it comes to refilling.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I definitely hear you. He's never 'just' 1G though.. At minimum, he is always 1GG. And, ask anyone playing BFZ Limited, there will be times when he is completely dead. Yikes. Not saying Battlion isn't pound-for-pound better, he probably is. Just sayin...he's not quite that good. He has issues like same as most.
(List below) My only two-drop, currently, is Silhana Ledgewalker. I still run this guy principally because of his evasion over his Hexproof although that is not bad either. I have been looking for a better 2-drop, if I have to run one. This guy is one, and (unlike Battalion) is every time.
Sylvan Libary >(>>>>>) All, imo. I will *never* take them out.
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Nettle Sentinel
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
4 Invigorate
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Bounty of the Hunt
2 Winter Orb
2 Sylvan Library
4 Dismember
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
I built this thing several years ago and I've just recently made a few changes (most notably the "Phybrid" cards) Sentinel/Elite split just b/c I need to pick up 2 Sentinels but Elites aren't exactly 'terrible' either.
I don't ever really get the chance to test it much. Looking at it now, honestly, it looks like a bit of a pile. Help would be very welcome indeed--this thing has been a mess for a while now, honestly.
Yes, I am actually running a Black Lotus in 10-Land Stompy. .....In casual games.
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I used to run Manamorphose and Land Grant to support Battalion. Now it's Mutagenic Growth and Land Grant. 8 cards to support 2, and ensure that I can cast it with two lands (or Land+Ranger). By the time I'm likely to draw a Battalion and want to cast it, even if I don't have one of those 8 (or I had to use them already), it's generally not too hard to find 3 land (or again, 2+Ranger). I totally agree that it's a potential liability, but it honestly hasn't been a problem so far in my build. I look forward to testing it out further though.
P.S. What are your lands? I like being techy so I'm running Arbor and Pendlehaven. I expect you wouldn't, since you aren't running Quirion Ranger. Also, isn't Ranger great with Winter Orb? I'm a little surprised you aren't running any at all with 2 maindeck Worbs.
P.S. I love that you're keeping the dream alive with the 2 Bounties. I love that card so much, and even run the full sets of ESG and Land Grant to support it, but I'm afraid of the card disadvantage and am in less need of free pumps due to my Quirion Ranger shenanigans.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Dammit. I *knew* I wanted Ranger back in there. She has always been my nearly-favorite/MVP in the deck but somewhere along the line I became convinced (I think it was probably in this thread, honestly) that she was just not worth it anymore.. She does feel very 'techie' and that was a bit of a problem with this deck (not just her either--Land Grants and Vine Dryads too.. It was all becoming very full of two-card dependencies that consistency was becoming a VERY real problem---so I decided to streamline things a bit.)
I do recall now that taking out Groundswell was another big whack against her--I used that trick A LOT with her.
I will try and find a way to sneak her back in. So SO many good tricks with her in this deck, agreed.
I just don't know what I'd cut at this point..
I need help, man!
Lands are just 9(!!) Forest. haha...
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I like decks with a lot of card interactions, so I built it this way to allow that breadth of capability. I agree that strict dependencies are generally bad, but enabling the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts is wonderful.
Anyway, others have also been dropping Ranger in the recent past (Upkeep perhaps?). Four is likely too many for some builds but 2-3 could be worth testing. I'm all in on Pendelhaven/Arbor/Groundswell/Nettle Sentinel/etc. so I'm ok running 4.
EDIT: Some more notes about dependencies and vulnerability: I wouldn't play Land Grant seriously in an environment that also contains Force of Will; it's mostly there for old school flavor. Vine Dryad and Bounty of the Hunt are a little too greedy for my tastes, but without them there was little reason to run Land Grants. Mutagenic Growth allows for Battalion, which allows for Land Grant, which allows for Dryad Arbor, which allows for Pendelhaven ... Is it too cute? I don't care; I love it.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I think you're running way too few creatures. I'd bump up to 4 Elite and Sentinels. You should have enough mana sources (I'm assuming your last 9 cards are forests) to use Talara's Battalion or another 2-drop creature. I'd think about cutting the Seal of Strengths for more creatures, as well as bounty of the hunt.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
IMO that's a fine way to build the deck for flavor and best-case explosiveness, but it straddles the line uncomfortably between Infect and Stompy. You have fewer creatures than Stompy, but you don't have the Vines of Vastwood, countermagic, and Gitaxian Probes to plan around and defend against your opponent's disruption. Removal on your creatures is not only more significant due to a lighter threat density, but more likely to be a blowout because the deck naturally wants to stack pump spells, opening the door for an x-for-1 play from the opponent. At the same time, you require your deck to deal twice as much damage as an Infect deck would need to do.
I don't want to be too negative here, because this deck obviously can pull off awesome wins and you've spent a lot of effort pimping it out. That said, I'd suggest making two decks: put your power into an Infect deck to optimize the explosiveness while adding some resiliency, and making an unpowered Stompy deck like mine that has all the interactions that you also seem to enjoy.
2c
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I've got a monoblack Infect deck that has killed on T3 so I'm decidedly interested in not seeking Infect approach here. My goal is classic 10-Land Stompy, I just took it slightly further w/power.
Like I said, I built this thing years ago with (at the time) state-of-the-art tech and I've made incremental changes in technology over the years. But with most super-tight-interaction decks like this, once you make a single change, it has unintended consequences elsewhere. Over time, it's drifted from its original focus and that's why it feels like it's pulling in diff directions. It would be a very useful exercise to re-ground it. I'm not particularly wed to any card in the list either. Tech comes and goes--I'd be happy to catch up with best practices.
May I please see your list? I'm quite happy to 'stand on the shoulders of giants' as they say..
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Upkeep posted a list in post #634.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
What's the general consensus on Become Immense. Really really intrigued by this card...perhaps at 1x/2x. Hmmm...maybe replace those Bountys.
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2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I want to suggest and then try to talk myself out of Blisterpod. Two creatures, two toughness, and two power for a single green. In most ways, having a single 2/2 would be better. However, we could taunt the opponent into bad blocks even more effectively with 1/1s. Also, I run Pendelhaven. Also, we want to go wide anyway, right? (Compare to Infect's "taller" version of guys+pump, where they usually only have 1-3 guys.)
Re: my sig, maybe Quirion Ranger #4 and Jungle Lion #4 for two of these. If they turn out awesome, maybe even more Lions could become pods.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Blisterpod I'm not sure on, but it's worth a look at least. My 10 land stompy is commons only and I thought of this card too. It's hard to recommend it over a 2/1+ or a 1/1 with evasion type items we already have, simply because we rush so early, that 1 extra damage always helps. Plus the scion's 1 mana isn't very useful in most builds.
I think it's worth a partial test though. Thanks for looking at it.
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2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
It seems like something to test, but it feels like it could be inconsistent.