Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has also been a staple for years now. I'd say it's probably the best creature in the deck.
I personally don't find Silhana Ledgewalker is worth the 2 mana in this deck. Something more aggressive would be my preference.
I would definitely go for at least 1 extra Rancor. 3-4 are both good numbers.
Other lists definitely have more pump, but your list is by no means bad or unorthodox. I like the Dismember, and it's probably hogging pump spells from you, but that's okay.
I'm a fan of having 2 Winter Orb rather than 3. It's not useful in multiples nor in all matchups, so it's okay to not draw it every game, in my opinion.
I'm still not sure how I should balance my creatures and pump spells. I think I might have too much pump right now.
Mutagenic Growth I'm sure should be 4-of, but I'm not so sure about Groundswell. I think it's reliable enough with my Quirion Ranger. Should I run Might of Old Krosa over Giant Growth, or would I need evasion for that?
Is Dismember worth it?
Is Land Grant necessary anymore? I don't have any "Discard a green card" spells anymore, so should I just run 4x more Forest?
You can't keep a 1-Land Grant hand against blue, as a FoW on Land Grant is pretty much a game loss. If you're serious about competitive play, play Infect or at least ditch Land Grants. Either way, you'll need Berserk to be competitive.
As for more casual play: I wouldn't consider Probe to be card draw. It's a cantrip. A major problem with the deck is that it runs out of gas, and cantrips won't solve that problem. You need many-for-one drawing spells like Library to solve that problem. I've considered Keen Sense before, but you DO need evasion to use that card effectively.
Do you really like Mutagenic Growth? I've always found it a bit small. Ledgewalker, Rancor, and Pit-Skulk gives you 12 instances of "evasion," which make Might of Old Krosa easier to run.
I'm still not sure how I should balance my creatures and pump spells. I think I might have too much pump right now.
Mutagenic Growth I'm sure should be 4-of, but I'm not so sure about Groundswell. I think it's reliable enough with my Quirion Ranger. Should I run Might of Old Krosa over Giant Growth, or would I need evasion for that?
Is Dismember worth it?
Is Land Grant necessary anymore? I don't have any "Discard a green card" spells anymore, so should I just run 4x more Forest?
Is this deck completely outclassed by Infect now?
Evasion: Not necessarily. If you're pushing through in sheer numbers and using your pump spells to deal damage or save a creature accordingly, evasion is not necessary. Pit Skulk really is the #1 creature, though.
Again, considering the deck runs so few lands, your chances of drawing business is much higher than any other decks. While draw spells are nice, the deck is fast and draws well enough that it's not necessary until the very late game (hopefully you never get there). Sylvan Library can be very interesting. As you noted, the cards that caused card disadvantaged aren't really as good as the options we have now.
You do seem to have a bit more pump than most do. At 14, I considered myself to be on the high end. If we look at Dismember and think takes the spot of a pump spell, you have plenty. It might be good to have a few more creatures.
Groundswell is fine. If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can always split it with another pump spell, like Might of Old Krosa. I still like Giant Growth, as +3 is still a great bargain, no strings attached. maybe you can go for a 3:3:2 split between the three cards and see which you like best?
Land Grant is only really useful if you have spells that it can be paired with. Barring those, it's a counterable forest. It's up to you to decide whether it really matters that much. If you are thinking of being a bit more competitive, than you can expect more countermagic, and Berserk is definitely a must.
Infect gets a Turn 2 kill. This deck can get there on turn 3... but it is extremely unlikely (it's happened to me only once in the years I've been playing). It's a good 1 1/2 turns slower than infect. Advantages? Better creatures. You're not putting all your eggs in same basket, which makes it feel more aggro than combo.
I'm not convinced our creatures are better if you consider their power is effectively cut by 50-60% compared to Infect, taking into consideration the various ways that people can and do gain life (Batterskull/Swords to Plowshares/Deathrite Shaman/etc.). Infect does indeed put all its wood behind much fewer arrows, but it can run extra support (e.g. countermagic, library manipulation) to ensure that the arrow hits home. Results aren't everything, but Infect can point to high finishes in recent large events, not something that Stompy has accomplished (feel free to point to results showing otherwise). This deck's as fun as ever and evolving gradually with newer printings, but the competitive scene is evolving far faster.
Infect also has better pump, e.g. +4 power for free.
If you're interested in the "pile of beaters" style of play in Competitive Legacy, I believe you would see more success with Merfolk, or Elf combo (as it can transition quite naturally to Elf aggro).
If I'm going to try to run aggressive 2-drop creatures, I just want to make sure that Talara's Battalion is better than Garruk's Companion or Wren's Run Vanquisher (or other options). You all seem to like Mutagenic Growth, and that along with Land Grant might be enough for me to try her. I like more impactful pump but the surprise factor along with Battalion synergy makes me want to try it.
Is a single Dryad Arbor as a tenth land too cute? I'm thinking it could be useful to turn mid-game Land Grants into additional attackers, or to play blocking tricks with Quirion Ranger. I'm treating it as a creature slot and not something I'd want to see in my opening hand, but those restrictions lead to inconsistencies.
Sylvan Library gets more exciting if we can fit more shuffle effects to refresh the topdeck. Right now we have 4 Land Grant, and that's likely the most we'll be able to run. Fetchlands are an option, but a bit too greedy to support a 1-of or 2-of Library at most.
If you're going to us Talara, you should definitely consider Land Grant, as it's a great enabler.
Mutagenic Growth has really built a comfortable spot in my deck. I can hardly imagine playing without it, now.
It's not uncommon to see a singleton Dryad Arbor in some deck lists. Being a fetchable creature is definitely relevant, and it holds a Rancor very well.
You could try making a version with fetches and Land Grants and include the gimmicks you mentioned. I'm sure it would make for an interesting deck (although a bit slower). You might want to consider going up to 12 lands, if you want to include Talara and Library and the Dryad.
I was considering a host of weaker creatures like Tattermunge Maniac, Mtenda Lion, etc. (Sorry Upkeep, I know you're a fan, but running so many beaters with 1 toughness scares me!). Again, Lesson replaces such creatures.
General thoughts:
I'm running Pendelhaven because (1) I don't expect much nonbasic hate, and (2) Arbor + 4 Rangers + 4 Pit Skulks make for ~6 1/1s in the deck.
I'm trying to reduce the number of */1s where possible. I'm still running full sets of Militants and Jungle Lions, but I'd like to reduce the effectiveness of Forked Bolt, Nausea, Electrickery, etc.
I'm only running 9 land (not counting the summoning-sick Arbor) because I only have four 2-drops in Battalion and Orb. This seems reasonable based on previous designs (i.e. those that ran 4 Rogue Elephants, which I consider 2-mana cards), and the fact that Arbor can be considered half a land for the purposes of mana creation.
Why isn't everyone running Warriors' Lesson? So much better than Bequeathal and Keen Sense, and a great budget pick over Sylvan Library (not to mention costing less and getting immediate returns). The instant speed is huge.
Questions, possible changes
I might turn Become Immense into a Hooting Mandrills or the fourth Groundswell. I'm not sure how much I trust the deck to Delve, but some goldfishing should make that clear.
I'd love to fit a third Warriors' Lesson. I imagine I could take out more pump, perhaps Immense, Might, or Groundswell.
Can my list (9 land, 8 free spells) support a third Battalion? I know goldfishing will help, but I'd love to get some early feedback from others. Are there any rules of thumb? I think blue players say every 3-4 cantrips allow them to drop a land from their list. Similarly, how many 2-drops require an extra land, and how many free spells will support a Battalion?
Vault Skirge and Porcelain Legionnaire are pauper/casual staples that could find a good home here. Skirge could even benefit from Pendelhaven, and could help with paying for Mutagenic Growth. I'd lose the mono-green flavor, which would be a bit of a shame, and they're a little bit smaller than we'd like to see for their casting costs. Perhaps thankfully, there simply might not be room for them.
I'm still a bit of a fan of Bounty of the Hunt, perhaps as a 1x-2x. Pitching a Spirit Guide to it is no worse than pitching one to Giant Growth, and it's another great combat trick. Again, not much room but a single copy could find a spot in place of another situational pump spell like Might or Groundswell.
The low toughness tends to matter less when pump spells are mixed in. I like them because they're fast and aggressive at little to no disadvantage. I understand wanting more beef. You have to pay for it, though.
I used Pendelhaven for a while, but it never really did all that much for me, honestly. My nice foil copy from Time Spiral just sits in a binder, unfortunately.
Generally, if you're starting to run many 2-drops, you should consider going up to 12-14 lands. We talked about the numbers before, I think it was around 8 2-drops to require a larger mana base. I'll have to look into it.
Warriors' Lesson will draw you a maximum of 2 cards. I say maximum, because getting 2 creatures unblocked isn't always possible. It might just turn into a cantrip, or do nothing at all. I'd much prefer Sylvan Library, and I'd probably use Keen Sense over it. It doesn't look like anything special to me.
Have you liked Become Immense? I certainly like it as a 1-of in the deck. It definitely pulls its weight and acts as a powerful finisher.
Vault Skirge could be interesting, but I don't like the Legionnaire. Life gain and flying could definitely be useful. The interaction with Pendelhaven is decent, and obviously pump spells are fantastic. I could see a few copies of it somewhere.
I used to like Bounty, but Mutagenic Growth is just better simply for the card disadvantage. Requiring a green card in your hand to play it is very awkward when you want to play your cards as well. I'd much rather pay some life and get less pump than have to pitch a card. It pays off more often than not, in my opinion.
Ok, my current build only has 4 2-drops, so hopefully adding more land isn't necessary yet, even if I go to Libraries.
I get that Warrior's Lesson is situational, but if your guys are being constantly chumped or stopped by walls/Eldrazi all day you aren't going to win anyway. If nothing gets through, we just don't cast Lesson yet. 6 instances of Trample and 4 "unblockable" Pit-Skulks should help, as should the Instant speed of Lesson. I love Keen Sense but they could see it coming a mile away and block appropriately to prevent you drawing. I should probably test both Lesson and Library to see which is more effective. Library certainly promises more cards, but I'm still hopeful that Lesson can become 2 cards more often than 1 or 0.
I'm looking at Bounty pretty much only in a "pitch ESG" situation, comparing it to other 1-drop pump like Groundswell/Might of Old Krosa. Once we start looking at cards like Might and Groundswell we're in the realm of situational pump anyway. Perhaps it's still not good enough even as a 1- or 2-of.
Lesson is just a lot of work for so few cards. Library will do so much more for you. I kind of wish I hadn't traded mine away!
Groundswell and MoOK will at least pump you +2/+2 in the worst scenarios. Bounty is uncastable in the worst scenario, and pumps less in the best (although being able to distribute where each +1/+1 goes is really useful sometimes). I've cast Might of Old Krosa very often for the +2/+2 side, but when going for pure damage, it doesn't get better than this. If you want to stay with a more "traditional" build, Bounty is still fairly playable. I think modern-day cards have since surpassed it, though.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, no open Forests and a Quirion Ranger in hand is +0/+0 with Might or Groundswell, but +3/+3 with Bounty. I get that in general though, it is indeed more limited and also more limiting due to it always effectively needing another card.
If only we could run double-strikers, Warrior's Lesson could be much better! As I said, I'll give both a shot to see what happens. Thanks for the feedback!
I ran Warrior's Lesson in a stompy~ish GW standard deck that had heroic creatures because Warrior's Lesson was awesome to trigger heroic and get card draw. But when I broke that deck into mono-G and mono-W flavors, I didn't even find space for Warrior's Lesson in the monogreen version (using only green creatures brought in Aspect of Hydra as a usually-big giant growth and Gather Courage as an effectively zero-cost booster because I could always tap a summoningsick creature to pay its cost).
I believe I was the first to mention Warrior's Lesson in this thread, and even I've abandoned it since then.
I'd much rather use Mutagenic than Gather Courage, and don't think the deck needs more than 4 such effects. I'm sensitive to the overall power level of the deck so I want to limit "small" pump: running fewer lands to increase threat density is great, but that effect is reduced if our threats are inferior.
Aspect is interesting, but a bit too situational for my tastes. I'll have to test it to see what its average size is.
Thanks for the thoughts! It looks like I may have to run Libraries after all. So much for keeping it a budget build!
the point is to get a creature down and pump it to the max. that why so many hexproof or evasion. dont like land grant i never play anything that gives an oponent any sort of an advantage, fetch lands do the job thinning out the deck. i guess quarion ranger is the only thing im missing and maybe a dryad arbor?
You generally have to pay in other ways to add evasion. If you're taking that tack, definitely use bigger pump like Groundswell and Might. Please add deck tags esp. when suggesting less common cards.
I'm running Land Grant mostly to use with Talara's Battalion and to be able to brag about only running 10 lands. I definitely agree Land Grant as played in XLS makes the deck more vulnerable to countermagic.
I like the Horizon Canopy to smooth out late game mana flood (since neither of us run Rogue Elephant), but am wondering about targets for Quirion Ranger. Also I have this silly desire to keep the cost of the deck low.
i dont know how to use deck tags.why does all stompy decks run quirion ranger? i understand all the tricks but dont we want to drop threats? turn 1 im dropping a threat or 2 then on turn 2 im dropping pump and maybe more threats. so when do we play ranger? i like scaryb ranger alot better flies,flash pro blue and my mana curve supports her.
Deck tags don't help without proper spelling, so don't worry about it!
Many people do go for more of a "hexproof" style of deck. What this does is give your creatures less power to begin with. This makes your creatures depend on pump spells to do decent damage, and being very mediocre on their own. If you use a lot of 2/1s and 2/2s for 1 mana, those creatures will be able to do a ton of damage by themselves, and you can use your pump spells to either win in creature combat or deal a finishing blow to an opponent.
I don't really think Slippery Bogle or Gladecover Scout really belong in this deck, in that regard. However, I've seen many lists running Silhana Ledgewalker as their 2-drop, which I totally agree with. Evasion + Hexproof for only 2 mana is a good deal.
I also doubted the power of the Quirion Ranger once. Now I know better. This card is very good at giving your creatures vigilance (scaring your opponent), as well as giving you extra mana and land drops (when it matters). I use 3 in my own deck, but most run the full set.
So Gitaxian Probe was recommended as a card draw option a page or two back and I dismissed it because it doesn't add net cards (-1, +1).
However, it can fill a similar role here as it does in Infect: we don't want to over-extend into removal or sweepers, despite the purpose of the deck pretty much requiring overextension for success. It also allows us to drop suboptimal cards and only run the best of the best in creatures, pump, etc. Any thoughts?
On its own, I wouldn't do it. If I were running a Delve spell or two (Become Immense? Hooting Mandrills?), I'd start to give it thought.
Are you thinking of adding blue to the manabase to be able to cast GP on blue mana and not life, or planning to always cast it on life?
If you're thinking of running GU stompy, I'd give a good consider to Delver of Secrets... but that mostly requires that your pumps all be instant or sorcery (no Rancor). And Delver doesn't play nice with Experiment One, though it looks like few of these decks are running those nowadays anyway.
Well I'm mostly talking about dodging removal in response to pump by peeking in their hand. I haven't ruled out Delve spells though, and likely wouldn't go blue on mana (Red seems like the better splash with Kird Apes and such).
You don't really need to look at their hand to leave up pump spells. You just need to have them ready. If you run things like Mutagenic Growth, it's even easier.
I basically only use my Pump spells to either kill the opponent right away, protect my creatures from removal or to have them win in combat. While it's nice to see the opponents' hand, I think I would rather have more relevant cards.
Ok, good point about pump philosophy. I think my use and love of Might of Old Krosa might be leading me down the overextension path. Would you mind posting the current version of your list? I saw one from two years ago in this thread but I imagine it's been massaged a bit. In that list you used Might of Old Krosa. If you still run it, do you just play it as a +2/+2 instead of trying to maximize value at Sorcery speed?
My list really hasn't changed all that much, to be honest. Winter Orb was pissing my friends off too much, so I eventually got rid of it. I'd highly recommend playing it, though, if you don't care about making friends.
3 Quirion Rangers has felt right for a while. I cut down on Rogue Elephant as it was a bit risky to play sometimes.
Vault Skirge is essentially a flex slot that I've been using to test out many different things. This year, it's been Become Immense and Hooting Mandrills. Mandrills were actually pretty bad. I could see myself playing Become Immense again, as that card has won me some impossible games. Vault Skirge has been an excellent card for racing. Putting a Rancor on him is just awesome.
We were playing a 3-player free-for-all game. One player is heavily guarded, so I attack another player with my 3/3 Rogue Elephant when he has all his mana open and only a Putrid Imp. I have Might of Old Krosa, but I keep it in my hand. The opponent happily Madnesses in a Reckless Wurm, feeling very confidant. I play Might. You should have seen the look on his face. I had read him like a book, and he was just shocked. No one ever expects you to play Might at instant speed. Had it been any other pump spell, I only would have got a pat on the back. But playing Might makes you look like a genius.
Yeah I'm looking to remove all the Elephants from my deck, as a 2-for-1 into a Boltable creature is sketchy. I'm slightly shocked to see you at 0 Battalions. I'm hoping to play them partially as an excuse to continue to run Land Grants (that and Dryad Arbor are the only two reasons to run them in my deck now that I'm dropping Bounty of the Hunt). I'm happy you're trying Vault Skirge: I remember bringing it up in the thread before so at least you're trying similar ideas if I didn't inspire you.
As I posted before I'm not too convinced by so many 2/1s. There are plenty of -1/-1 effects, Forked Bolts, Jittes, and other things running around and I want to make them work a bit harder to remove my guys. Jungle Lions, Dryad Militants, Quirion Rangers, and Dryad Arbor already gives them over a dozen targets.
I know that you've been talking about dropping a Ranger for awhile now. I'll have to see how tight my mana is with six 2-drops (Orb, Library, Battalion) and see if it makes sense to replace it with something more impactful in combat.
Lastly, why are you bearish on Hooting Mandrills? Is it because you tend to slow play your pump spells, leading to too few cards in the yard to Delve?
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has also been a staple for years now. I'd say it's probably the best creature in the deck.
I personally don't find Silhana Ledgewalker is worth the 2 mana in this deck. Something more aggressive would be my preference.
I would definitely go for at least 1 extra Rancor. 3-4 are both good numbers.
Other lists definitely have more pump, but your list is by no means bad or unorthodox. I like the Dismember, and it's probably hogging pump spells from you, but that's okay.
I'm a fan of having 2 Winter Orb rather than 3. It's not useful in multiples nor in all matchups, so it's okay to not draw it every game, in my opinion.
UGTurboFogGU
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EDH
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GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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9 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Creatures (22)
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Dryad Militant
4 Jungle Lion
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Rogue Elephant
4 Giant Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
Spells (5)
3 Winter Orb
2 Dismember
I have a few questions, though:
As for more casual play: I wouldn't consider Probe to be card draw. It's a cantrip. A major problem with the deck is that it runs out of gas, and cantrips won't solve that problem. You need many-for-one drawing spells like Library to solve that problem. I've considered Keen Sense before, but you DO need evasion to use that card effectively.
Do you really like Mutagenic Growth? I've always found it a bit small. Ledgewalker, Rancor, and Pit-Skulk gives you 12 instances of "evasion," which make Might of Old Krosa easier to run.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Evasion: Not necessarily. If you're pushing through in sheer numbers and using your pump spells to deal damage or save a creature accordingly, evasion is not necessary. Pit Skulk really is the #1 creature, though.
Again, considering the deck runs so few lands, your chances of drawing business is much higher than any other decks. While draw spells are nice, the deck is fast and draws well enough that it's not necessary until the very late game (hopefully you never get there). Sylvan Library can be very interesting. As you noted, the cards that caused card disadvantaged aren't really as good as the options we have now.
You do seem to have a bit more pump than most do. At 14, I considered myself to be on the high end. If we look at Dismember and think takes the spot of a pump spell, you have plenty. It might be good to have a few more creatures.
Groundswell is fine. If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can always split it with another pump spell, like Might of Old Krosa. I still like Giant Growth, as +3 is still a great bargain, no strings attached. maybe you can go for a 3:3:2 split between the three cards and see which you like best?
Land Grant is only really useful if you have spells that it can be paired with. Barring those, it's a counterable forest. It's up to you to decide whether it really matters that much. If you are thinking of being a bit more competitive, than you can expect more countermagic, and Berserk is definitely a must.
Infect gets a Turn 2 kill. This deck can get there on turn 3... but it is extremely unlikely (it's happened to me only once in the years I've been playing). It's a good 1 1/2 turns slower than infect. Advantages? Better creatures. You're not putting all your eggs in same basket, which makes it feel more aggro than combo.
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Infect also has better pump, e.g. +4 power for free.
If you're interested in the "pile of beaters" style of play in Competitive Legacy, I believe you would see more success with Merfolk, or Elf combo (as it can transition quite naturally to Elf aggro).
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Is a single Dryad Arbor as a tenth land too cute? I'm thinking it could be useful to turn mid-game Land Grants into additional attackers, or to play blocking tricks with Quirion Ranger. I'm treating it as a creature slot and not something I'd want to see in my opening hand, but those restrictions lead to inconsistencies.
Sylvan Library gets more exciting if we can fit more shuffle effects to refresh the topdeck. Right now we have 4 Land Grant, and that's likely the most we'll be able to run. Fetchlands are an option, but a bit too greedy to support a 1-of or 2-of Library at most.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Mutagenic Growth has really built a comfortable spot in my deck. I can hardly imagine playing without it, now.
It's not uncommon to see a singleton Dryad Arbor in some deck lists. Being a fetchable creature is definitely relevant, and it holds a Rancor very well.
You could try making a version with fetches and Land Grants and include the gimmicks you mentioned. I'm sure it would make for an interesting deck (although a bit slower). You might want to consider going up to 12 lands, if you want to include Talara and Library and the Dryad.
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
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GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
8 Forest
4 Land Grant
1 Pendelhaven
// Mana Creatures (9)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
// Beef (18)
4 Dryad Militant
4 Jungle Lion
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Talara's Battalion
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
3 Groundswell
2 Giant Growth
2 Might of Old Krosa
1 Become Immense
// Tricks (4)
2 Warriors' Lesson
2 Winter Orb
1 Rogue Elephant
1 Dismember
1 Gut Shot
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Manamorphose
1 Vines of Vastwood
No longer viable/necessary:
General thoughts:
Questions, possible changes
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I used Pendelhaven for a while, but it never really did all that much for me, honestly. My nice foil copy from Time Spiral just sits in a binder, unfortunately.
Generally, if you're starting to run many 2-drops, you should consider going up to 12-14 lands. We talked about the numbers before, I think it was around 8 2-drops to require a larger mana base. I'll have to look into it.
Warriors' Lesson will draw you a maximum of 2 cards. I say maximum, because getting 2 creatures unblocked isn't always possible. It might just turn into a cantrip, or do nothing at all. I'd much prefer Sylvan Library, and I'd probably use Keen Sense over it. It doesn't look like anything special to me.
Have you liked Become Immense? I certainly like it as a 1-of in the deck. It definitely pulls its weight and acts as a powerful finisher.
Vault Skirge could be interesting, but I don't like the Legionnaire. Life gain and flying could definitely be useful. The interaction with Pendelhaven is decent, and obviously pump spells are fantastic. I could see a few copies of it somewhere.
I used to like Bounty, but Mutagenic Growth is just better simply for the card disadvantage. Requiring a green card in your hand to play it is very awkward when you want to play your cards as well. I'd much rather pay some life and get less pump than have to pitch a card. It pays off more often than not, in my opinion.
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I get that Warrior's Lesson is situational, but if your guys are being constantly chumped or stopped by walls/Eldrazi all day you aren't going to win anyway. If nothing gets through, we just don't cast Lesson yet. 6 instances of Trample and 4 "unblockable" Pit-Skulks should help, as should the Instant speed of Lesson. I love Keen Sense but they could see it coming a mile away and block appropriately to prevent you drawing. I should probably test both Lesson and Library to see which is more effective. Library certainly promises more cards, but I'm still hopeful that Lesson can become 2 cards more often than 1 or 0.
I'm looking at Bounty pretty much only in a "pitch ESG" situation, comparing it to other 1-drop pump like Groundswell/Might of Old Krosa. Once we start looking at cards like Might and Groundswell we're in the realm of situational pump anyway. Perhaps it's still not good enough even as a 1- or 2-of.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Groundswell and MoOK will at least pump you +2/+2 in the worst scenarios. Bounty is uncastable in the worst scenario, and pumps less in the best (although being able to distribute where each +1/+1 goes is really useful sometimes). I've cast Might of Old Krosa very often for the +2/+2 side, but when going for pure damage, it doesn't get better than this. If you want to stay with a more "traditional" build, Bounty is still fairly playable. I think modern-day cards have since surpassed it, though.
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UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
If only we could run double-strikers, Warrior's Lesson could be much better! As I said, I'll give both a shot to see what happens. Thanks for the feedback!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I believe I was the first to mention Warrior's Lesson in this thread, and even I've abandoned it since then.
Aspect is interesting, but a bit too situational for my tastes. I'll have to test it to see what its average size is.
Thanks for the thoughts! It looks like I may have to run Libraries after all. So much for keeping it a budget build!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
3x noble heirach
4x pit skulk
2x slippery bogle
3x nettle sentinel
4x gladecover scout
3x strangleroot geist
2x scaryb ranger
2x talaras batillion
2x dryad militant
1x berserk (if i had more i would use them obviously)
4x rancor
2x giant growth
4x vines of vastwood
2x might of old krosa
4x mutenegic growth
4x elvish spirit guide
1x lotus petal
1x horzion canopy
2x verdant catacombs
10x forest
I'm running Land Grant mostly to use with Talara's Battalion and to be able to brag about only running 10 lands. I definitely agree Land Grant as played in XLS makes the deck more vulnerable to countermagic.
I like the Horizon Canopy to smooth out late game mana flood (since neither of us run Rogue Elephant), but am wondering about targets for Quirion Ranger. Also I have this silly desire to keep the cost of the deck low.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Many people do go for more of a "hexproof" style of deck. What this does is give your creatures less power to begin with. This makes your creatures depend on pump spells to do decent damage, and being very mediocre on their own. If you use a lot of 2/1s and 2/2s for 1 mana, those creatures will be able to do a ton of damage by themselves, and you can use your pump spells to either win in creature combat or deal a finishing blow to an opponent.
I don't really think Slippery Bogle or Gladecover Scout really belong in this deck, in that regard. However, I've seen many lists running Silhana Ledgewalker as their 2-drop, which I totally agree with. Evasion + Hexproof for only 2 mana is a good deal.
Dropping the Bogle and Scout, I would add the 4th Nettle Sentinel, 2 more Dryad Militants, possibly a 14th land, and maybe switching out the Scryb Ranger and the last two cards for Quirion Ranger.
I also doubted the power of the Quirion Ranger once. Now I know better. This card is very good at giving your creatures vigilance (scaring your opponent), as well as giving you extra mana and land drops (when it matters). I use 3 in my own deck, but most run the full set.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
However, it can fill a similar role here as it does in Infect: we don't want to over-extend into removal or sweepers, despite the purpose of the deck pretty much requiring overextension for success. It also allows us to drop suboptimal cards and only run the best of the best in creatures, pump, etc. Any thoughts?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Are you thinking of adding blue to the manabase to be able to cast GP on blue mana and not life, or planning to always cast it on life?
If you're thinking of running GU stompy, I'd give a good consider to Delver of Secrets... but that mostly requires that your pumps all be instant or sorcery (no Rancor). And Delver doesn't play nice with Experiment One, though it looks like few of these decks are running those nowadays anyway.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I basically only use my Pump spells to either kill the opponent right away, protect my creatures from removal or to have them win in combat. While it's nice to see the opponents' hand, I think I would rather have more relevant cards.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Dryad Militant
4 Mtenda Lion
4 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Rogue Elephant
2 Vault Skirge
4 Rancor
4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Giant Growth
3 Might of Old Krosa
Mana sources (21)
10 Forest
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
2 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Reverent Silence
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Quirion Rangers has felt right for a while. I cut down on Rogue Elephant as it was a bit risky to play sometimes.
Vault Skirge is essentially a flex slot that I've been using to test out many different things. This year, it's been Become Immense and Hooting Mandrills. Mandrills were actually pretty bad. I could see myself playing Become Immense again, as that card has won me some impossible games. Vault Skirge has been an excellent card for racing. Putting a Rancor on him is just awesome.
I actually have a pretty great story about using Might of Old Krosa:
We were playing a 3-player free-for-all game. One player is heavily guarded, so I attack another player with my 3/3 Rogue Elephant when he has all his mana open and only a Putrid Imp. I have Might of Old Krosa, but I keep it in my hand. The opponent happily Madnesses in a Reckless Wurm, feeling very confidant. I play Might. You should have seen the look on his face. I had read him like a book, and he was just shocked. No one ever expects you to play Might at instant speed. Had it been any other pump spell, I only would have got a pat on the back. But playing Might makes you look like a genius.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
As I posted before I'm not too convinced by so many 2/1s. There are plenty of -1/-1 effects, Forked Bolts, Jittes, and other things running around and I want to make them work a bit harder to remove my guys. Jungle Lions, Dryad Militants, Quirion Rangers, and Dryad Arbor already gives them over a dozen targets.
I know that you've been talking about dropping a Ranger for awhile now. I'll have to see how tight my mana is with six 2-drops (Orb, Library, Battalion) and see if it makes sense to replace it with something more impactful in combat.
Lastly, why are you bearish on Hooting Mandrills? Is it because you tend to slow play your pump spells, leading to too few cards in the yard to Delve?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.