Yes accept the fact that Capsize is reusable over and over again, and MUC is a late game deck. I mean the cantrip from Roil is hot, but Capsize isn't card disadvantage either since it can be reused. Late game, Capsizing permanents every turn can be brutal. And, thats where MUC wants to be, in the late game, and Capsize dominates late game, so its perfect.
Contra Capsize:
- It only takes care of one permanent at a time.
- It needs constant investment of sources.
- Leaving open 6 mana per turn is huge, even lategame, when you plan on playing other things.
- There are cards you simply do not want to bounce each turn.
-> If you want late game solution bombs, go for solid answers, not a sofe one like Capsize. Solid answers being any recursion engine + removal that fits the engine.
What leads me to Into the Roil: It serves a completly other purpose than Capsize, one-shot bounce at 2cmc is intended to interact with your counters (namely giving them a second chance) and stealing tempo from the game by doing so.
ItR is in that sense comparable to Boomerang and the superior Echoing Truth (superior because MUC has no interest in bouncing lands and ET can hit multiple cards or annihilate tokens).
Now, if I would replace ItR with something then ET, but that depends on wether you have a problem with permanent redundance (agro) & tokens or prefer random cantripping (midrange, control).
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Ok, well if your using bounce to survive till the midgame, maybe. In that case, Echoing Truth is superior. But, you have to have midgame control bombs like Vedalken Shackles, otherwise why bother with bounce for the early game. Capsize makes use of the extra mana, is reusable, so no card disadvantage, and can bounce any pesky permanent. If your arguing that by the point one can cast and buyback Capsize, one should have control of the game, ok, thats fine. Roil costs too juch though with kicker, and MUC can care less about tempo, since its a late game deck. MUC can't take advantage of the tempo Roil offers. Thats why Capsize is better, because MUC is a late game deck, and although Roil offers immediate tempo advantage, MUC isnt a deck that can capitalize on that tempo boost.
ET is not superior to ItR per se, like it is to Boomerang. Let's assume there was a 1U spell with just the text "Return target non-land permanent to its owner's hand." I would play this for two reasons - that are the exact same ones that justify ET, ItR and Boomerang - if there were not better options:
1. It gives me a second chance at countering something that I could not counter earlier.
2. It steals tempo from the game.
A short definition of tempo:
A move that speeds up one's win by a non-definite hard disruption to an answers or threat. (Remand a *** to swing for lethal next turn; Man-o'-War bouncing a bomb) or
Immidiate answer demanding CA that involves the battlefield, leading to a defensive use of sources. (BBE cascade into Leech)
Stealing tempo then means denying the op. to get in a position where he could generate tempo and 'steal the game'.
I admit proclaming MUC does not care about tempo was sub-par. Better would have been: MUC has no interest in its own tempo, but interest in denying it to everyone else.
Bommerang, ItR and ET share all the theoretical card's basis, what is different is their bonus over this basis:
Bommerang can bounce a land. Generating Tempo, CdA. MUc has no interest in that bonus.
ET can bounce redundant cards. Stealing (possibly a lot) tempo, CdA. Against token decks or agro as epitome of four-offs this can matter.
ItR can replace itself. Stealing tempo, possibly no CdA. Against decks that don't demand 100% mana per turn, this will be the better choice.
-> Most of the time ET and ItR will have the same effect anyways, namely that of the card I made up.
In slower matchups the option to draw a card is huge, don't underestimate that. You stress CA yourself as argument pro-Capsize (cut out the blue part):
Quote from razefire »
Capsize makes use of the extra mana, is reusable, so no card disadvantage
And again double standarts:
Roil costs too much with kicker
(slightly corrected quote) And now compare this to what I made blue in the upper quote. Ups. Right? ItR does not force you to kick it and is just fine without it.
Last but not least:
If your arguing that by the point one can cast and buyback Capsize, one should have control of the game, ok, thats fine.
That totaly is not my point, I have no clue where I come close to stating such a thing; my point is that Capsize is inefficient at what it does and not to be compared to 2cmc bounce.
Edit: What do Shackles (and friends) have to do with running bounce?
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One offs are not a problem when used correctly, as in a toolbox, but yes here I agree, this looks like an unfocused mess of sub-par choices ^^ (that has nothing to do with budget - MUC is rather cheap to build)
I'd cut these for sure,
putting your spell count to 35, then maybe add one or two better options, getting you to 23/4 lands and replace spells not listed here with stuff from my list in the first post (those are not expensive by default).
given more info about your style, options and meta we could give you better advice.
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You misunderstand me. The point I am making about bounce in MUC is that:
Bounce should offer a way to survive long enough to establish control, and if possible, help maintain control without creating card disadvantage if possible.
Now, ET/Roil both help survivve the early game (to me, MUC's weakest point). And, both cards have the ability to create tempo gain by potentially bouncing multiple permanents. Not, ET has the potential of creating virtual card advantage by possibly bouncing multiple copies of a permanent, which may or may not happen. Roil, on the other hand, can bounce a single permanent for a 2 casting cost, a one for one trade, or you can pay 4 mana and bounce 2 permanents, AND draw a card to replace itself. Which, isn't bad by any means. But.........
Capsize costs more than both, at 3 for a one for one, or 6 with the buyback cost. Capsize doesn't net you a cantrip or for 4 , bounce 2 permanents either, I conceed that point. However, Capsizes resuability is how it creates virtual card advantage. Since it has buyback (if you choose to pay it), you can reuse it again and again. And, Capsize will help maintain long term control (where MUC wants to be). Capsize also allows you to save counters for threats that bounce can't target.
In conclusion, they all have their merits/flaws. I prefer Capsize for its reusable potential.
Maybe you read Into the Roil - it only bounces 1 permanent, if kicked or not.
You sweep under the carpet my whole argumentation about why 2cmc bounce and Capsize have different roles and playing one over the other is thus a bad idea.
However, Capsizes resuability is how it creates virtual card advantage. Since it has buyback (if you choose to pay it), you can reuse it again and again. And, Capsize will help maintain long term control (where MUC wants to be). Capsize also allows you to save counters for threats that bounce can't target.
I never disagreed to any of those points. Virtual card advantage is not the right terminus, as you basically keep up a 0:0 trade (neither card leaves the hand permanently); but I get your point, as little it has to do with 2cmc bounce.
I say that 6 mana is to much for the effect, if you need to pay it each turn and it can put you in a disadvantageous situation by binding a lot resources (namely 6 mana).
btw can you name any threats that you can't (don't want to) counter but Capsize each turn?
I have to say that Capsize and Disk is good option (activate Disk and in response to the ability bounce Disk), but that doesn't make me run Capsize outside of EDH, where 6 mana is a lot less.
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I apologize about the misread about ITRoil. Anyway, a 5 mana investment each turn into EOT Capsizes is alot of mana, true. And, sometimes I let things resolve that Capsize or VShackles can deal with, saving counters for spells they cannot deal with like creatures with shroud, armageddon effects, the list goes on. My primary support for Capsize is the reusability, that's all. In a game, I wait and see what I let resolve, depending on the resources in my hand, and what kind of board presence I have (VShackles, Propagandas, a creature, etc), and react accordingly. Personally, I never want to use countersfor things that my board control elements can handle in a timley fashion. I understand, occasionally it's necessary to counter a creature so you dont get overwhelmed, or a high power creature that can't be posessed in time by VShackles, or slowed fast enough by Propaganda, and, in that case, counter the creature.
In regards to Capsize, I guess it depends on what your using bounce for. I like to use bounce for anything that slips through counters/permanent based board control. I hate havig to use bounce, only to have to counter it again, thats a 2 for 1. Roil solves the problem of the 2 for 1 with a cantrip. But, I want some insurance late game, and Capsize offers that. Capsize is my late game catchall answer. Since its reusable, albeit at 6 mana, it can cause a painful guessing game for the opponent since they know I am holding it.
I read the first few pages of this thread and wanted to chime in and ask some questions.
I was looking to build either a MUC, UW, or a UB control deck. Since this is a MUC thread I'll start there. Instead of looking for specific cards I was interested in asking what the numbers should look like. I have been told that MUC decks should look for 26 mana sources when including mana artifacts, 16 to 20-ish counters, around 4 win-con cards, and utility cards like CA and removal should make up the last 10 to 14 slots.
*I prefer to never use proxies myself, however, I respect the fact that others are okay with them. Not to get off topic, but I can understand people wantign to proxy to see if they want to buy a card, but to proxy FoW or Mana Drain just make me shake my head. These are cards you should just buy anyway. They are great and the only reason not to buy them is that they cost a lot. Anyway, back on topic.
So just to make a deck off of the top of my head while typing this, here is what I will come up with:
Rune Snag - I always loved this card. Force Spike, Mana Leak and other cards all have their use. I don't think any one of those cards is better or worse than Rune Snag, I jsut liek Rune Snag. Oh, and I have 4 foil ones
Remand - Just like Run Snag, I started playing right before Ravnica came out and "grew up" on these two counter spells in standard so they have a special place in my heart. Remand is darn good too. It has a second use to this day people are unaware of. In a counter war, a remand can target your original spell you are fighting for to your hand and draw you a card to recast it next turn. Watch your opponant face when they realize what just happened.
Dismal Failure - I know people like Dismiss. Dismiss is a great card because it draws you a card and when you play multiplayer Dismiss is a far better card. Also, when you play agaisnt agro, who is dumping their hand, they may not even have cards to discard to Dismal Failure. Despite all of this, and being player who prefers mono black above all other decks, I really like the discard effect and this is casual.
Spell Burst - Simply put, when you stablize, you win with this card. Nothing is getting through. Early on you can often use it as a desperate counter, but late game is where it really shines.
Boomerang - Self explanitory. A short term answer to things that slip by.
Accumulated Knowledge - Same mechanic as Rune Snag and a fun card to play. Not the best card to put on the stick because that means one less card in your GY, but not terrible. Also a good home for my 4 AKs that haven't seen play in a few years.
Isochron Scepter - With Counterspell, boomerang, and the less than optimal choice Accumulated Knowledge, you should be able to abuse the stick.
Win Cons - I wanted to go with 4 different win-con creatures to keep the games from feeling stale. Oh, and I don't own a Guile. Oh, and having a Boomerang on a stick with Draining Whelk is fun.
P.S. I would love to see a Primer Decks: UBW Control thread. Talking about all sorts of fun budget and non budget builds would be nice. I remember playing UBW Evoke control with Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, Momentary Blink, Makeshift Manniquin, and other fun stuff; a deck about O-Ring and Vedalkin Mastermind and other interactions; a version of Dralnu Control that used Vodistone Gargoyal and some multi colored cards with white in the cost; etc. I may even make one jsut to get the ball rolling if no one else will.
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@Drain Life:
When you use Isochron Scepter on a blue deck, you should use 3 Cunning Wish.
Accumulated Knowledge is quite good on the stick because if you have 1 AK in your graveyard, that's a 2 cards every turn for 2 mana.
I like Fire/Ice and Orim's Chant on the stick as well, and even though you don't have red or white in your deck, you should consider these cards as one of in your sideboard, to be tutored by Cunning Wish.
It might not be very efficient, but try using Memory Lapse on the Stick to lock your opponent into Deja vu.
hahaha i loved to do that when 7th edition was extended.
Kenneth: Cut 4x Unsummon, 4x Whirlpool Whelm, 1x Font of Mythos and Denizen of the Deep.
Bounce is just no answer to threats you can rely on, Font gives them gas and speeding up the game is one of the last things MUC wants to do, DotD is just to expensive to ever be cast. Add 4x Courier's Capsule (or some equivalent cheap draw), 4x Plumeveil, 4x other speedbump that can attack (see post #1) Replace Boomerang with either Echoing Truth or Into the Roil (reasons post #95), Scaterring Stroke with more Rewind.
Drain Life: Dismail Failure's discard is outside a discard deck a very bad advantage (you got their worst irelevant card, impressing) and not worth the extra 2 compared to Counterspell. Remand in a MUC list is like *** in agro, the tricks you can pull are nice, but why would you not prefer hard counter over it? (If you say for the card -> run more good draw) Spellburst is a one card lock, given the mana to play it. If you are that great a fan, you should opt for either an 8Post or Tron landbase (21/22) with 4 2cmc mana artifacts that produce U. Boomerang - read also post #95
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@aglanmg
I disagree with cunning wish because this is casual. No sideboard or anything like that. I used to play Extended stick so I know what you are talking about. I may not post here a lot but I have had my share of success in competitive magic over the years and am more of a Vintage player in the long run, though over the last two years I have played EDH almost exclusively. I prefer nuts broken cards, but casual is nice to tone things down a bit and play with newer players and other casuals. I actually originally wrote rewind, then erased it and put dismiss, and then finally put the dismal failure. I have not made this deck yet or anything, just a mental build.
@Blutsau
I hear you man. I was trying to come up with a list on the spot and work from there. I agree with you about Dismal Failure in Mono Blue. I remember many people playing it as a one or two of in Dralnu and other TSB standard and block and how good it was in the control match up. Also, I play with it in EDH and it is really good. I don't know if you have ever played with it or against it, so I cannot speak for you, but one thing that drives me nuts about this forum as a whole is how often people will dismiss a card based solely on "logic" only to find out "it" [what ever "it" is] is actually good. In the end though I only own one dismiss and that is in EDH, so I am thinking when i build this deck I will end up using rewind.
Also Blutsau, I have to totally disagree with you about remand. Short answer, did you even play back in Ravnica/CS/TSP days? Remand has proven it's worth time and time again. It is that good. It is not like *** in Agro. Why would I play it over a hard counter? Because Mana Drain is too expensive, I don't use proxies, and the only "hard counter" that can hit any spell for two mana is Counterspell which is in the deck. Mana leak, Rune Snag, Memory Lapse and other are all not hard counters. Mana leak is not as good as Remand, Rune Snag is already on the list, and I am thinking about using Memory lapse on the stick. I am open to that idea. Your argument that i should run better card draw than remand shows why you don't get why it is so good. Remand on turn two or three is a virtual time walk. It has so much versatility. Simply put your argument against the card is the same one people made when Ravnica came out and it was a 50cent card that stores couldn't sell. Then some pros started playing it and suddenly it became a $5+ card that no one could find. Did it suddenly get better? Has it gotten worse? No. People in Vintage even use it from time to time at events. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you a lot in these threads, but I had to say my peace about Remand at the least.
Finally, on the issue of Spell Burst, I never really listed a mana base. In casual you can play a Sol Ring, Tolarian Academy, and other fun cards as singletons. If I am going mono blue it is likely going to have an Academy, Seats, a Sol Ring and mind stones or something. There should be plenty of mana, or you are doing something wrong.
EDIT: So I read you bit about Capsize and ItR and Boomerang and all that and also just have to skae my head and disagree with you. Keep in mind I come from the perspective of an avid EDH player so my view is a little different than yours may be, but going first and using boomerange their land during their upkeep, and the next turn a remand, etc give you such a tempo advantage and a chance to set up your late game you should have already won. The point of MUC is to get to the late game and destroying someones early game will certainly do just that. I agree with you that ET is a great card and can hit tokens. It is a great debate between the two cards. In casual you are likely to face a token swarm and that is good cause to use ET. Depending on the meta I may even move over to ET, but on a first build, Boomerang is a house. I do agree that ItR is a great card and I am willing to try it out. an ItR on the stick witch kicker would be a lot of fun. To say though that not every turn you would want something to bounce with capsize or a boomerang on a stick is silly talk. If all they have are lands to bounce, then you are winning so hard right now. That, and again, with mana accelerators, you could and should be able to bounce several things with a single capsize. You talk about 8-Post or Tron, that is a lot of mana to abuse a multi shot capsize. Also, as an EDH palyer, Capsize wins games. I'm not saying you should play with mana crypt in casual, but a game of island sol ring go followed by land mana crypt go, upkeep capsize w/ buyback is GG. No MUC needed. An early game boomstick does the same thing.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
@Kennethwong:
Mono Blue Control decks play mostly in the opponent's turn. Sorceries are not good options for this kind of deck. The Aeon Chroniclers are alright just because they can serve as finishers, but the Mind spring really should not be in there. You need more card drawing. Also, you have too many bouncers. If you feel the need to use bouncers late game, try Capsize instead. If you need bouncers early game, try walls instead. You really should not use more than 4 bouncers.
Another thing, you have too many Stalking stones. It takes 6 mana to make it a crature and it does not help a turn 2 Counterspell. 4 Stalking stones is too much. You should decrease to 2 or 3.
About Denizen of the deep, it is not a good option because it is very vulnarable. You don't want to spend your counter spells to protect your creature. The counter spells in your deck are supposed to counter threats, not to protect your creature, but if you have fun with the 11/11, you can keep it. I mean, I have a friend who uses Vizzerdrix as a finisher just to humiliate the opponent and he has lots of fun with it, who am I to tell him to take Vizzerdrix out of his deck?
@Drain Life:
I understand that there's no need for Cunning wish in a casual deck, it was just a suggestion. You might want to try Muddle the Mixture then, since it tutors for both the stick and the 2cmc spells, and is itself a counter spell.
@aglanmg
Its true about the denizen being vulnerable, but it just wipes people away that its a 11/11, and they freak about it.
but i dont get why only 8 bounce spells. for example, my friend relies on an early beatdown with nip gwillon and edge of divinity. i can easily piss him off i mean kill his two enchantments, and waste his spent mana with a single unsummon. and i play heavy multiplayer, not going to be able to counter everything.
@blutsau
yes, bounce may not be an answer to threats, but i can still stall by bouncing his land in the first several turns with boomerang
@Kennethwong:
Now there's information we didn't have before. A deck for multiplayer games must have different strategies than a deck for 1 on 1.
In this kind of game, boomerang is still not an excelent card. Rushing River, Repulse and Evacuation work better, even though you can't have them on the stick.
You have to be very careful when choosing what cards to counter or else you won't have enough counters for the important things. Rewind plays a big role in multiplayer games, allowing for the casting og more than one counter.
You should consider a more consistent draw engine such as Rhystic Study. It is a multiplayer powerhouse.
I played during Rav and don't remember a single MUC list back then running Remand. Sure it was played a lot for good reasons, but not in the archetype we talk about. So what is your point?
Again I made a sub-par choice of words. Mana Leak, Rune Snag etc are all able to send a spell to the grave in the first few turns, what Remand (and Memory Lapse) can't.
Uhm, some aspects of Remand are similar to Timewalk. Timewalk in MUC makes you essentialy pay 1U to play a land and draw a card early game. Not impressive. I value the land drop very little, because the counters you play can't count on that extra land.
With Remand the op. however still drew a card and got a combat step. A lot less impressive to me.
I've to catch my bus now, I'll comment more tonight.
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@blutsau
I think I have sai all I need to. Remand has proven it's value despite it's critics no mater if it is in MUC all the way up to 5cc. Each 2cc counter is different in it's own way. The only strictly better 2cc counter is Mana Drain followed by Counterspell. Negate is different than Remove Soul which is all different than Mana leak which is different than Rune Snag which are all different than Memory Lapse and Remand. They all serve different purposes. If I were asked to pick a 2cc counter early game to be sitting on with two mana and I can't choose Mana drain or Counterspell I would chose Remand. I have already said why. We disagree obviously and I respect that. I would like to see what other MUC players think about the use of Remand in a casual deck like this as well.
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@Drain Life: There's a third 2cc hard counter you haven't said a word about: Arcane Denial.
Together with Rhystic Study, it shines
Honestly I forgot about it. I didn't do a Gatherer search for 2cc counters and I didn't play back then. I like Arcane Denial but when I play it I get that "why am I letting them draw cards?!?" creepy feeling.
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MTG Rules adviser.
- It only takes care of one permanent at a time.
- It needs constant investment of sources.
- Leaving open 6 mana per turn is huge, even lategame, when you plan on playing other things.
- There are cards you simply do not want to bounce each turn.
-> If you want late game solution bombs, go for solid answers, not a sofe one like Capsize. Solid answers being any recursion engine + removal that fits the engine.
What leads me to Into the Roil: It serves a completly other purpose than Capsize, one-shot bounce at 2cmc is intended to interact with your counters (namely giving them a second chance) and stealing tempo from the game by doing so.
ItR is in that sense comparable to Boomerang and the superior Echoing Truth (superior because MUC has no interest in bouncing lands and ET can hit multiple cards or annihilate tokens).
Now, if I would replace ItR with something then ET, but that depends on wether you have a problem with permanent redundance (agro) & tokens or prefer random cantripping (midrange, control).
1. It gives me a second chance at countering something that I could not counter earlier.
2. It steals tempo from the game.
A short definition of tempo:
A move that speeds up one's win by a non-definite hard disruption to an answers or threat. (Remand a *** to swing for lethal next turn; Man-o'-War bouncing a bomb)
or
Immidiate answer demanding CA that involves the battlefield, leading to a defensive use of sources. (BBE cascade into Leech)
Stealing tempo then means denying the op. to get in a position where he could generate tempo and 'steal the game'.
I admit proclaming MUC does not care about tempo was sub-par. Better would have been: MUC has no interest in its own tempo, but interest in denying it to everyone else.
Bommerang, ItR and ET share all the theoretical card's basis, what is different is their bonus over this basis:
Bommerang can bounce a land. Generating Tempo, CdA. MUc has no interest in that bonus.
ET can bounce redundant cards. Stealing (possibly a lot) tempo, CdA. Against token decks or agro as epitome of four-offs this can matter.
ItR can replace itself. Stealing tempo, possibly no CdA. Against decks that don't demand 100% mana per turn, this will be the better choice.
-> Most of the time ET and ItR will have the same effect anyways, namely that of the card I made up.
In slower matchups the option to draw a card is huge, don't underestimate that. You stress CA yourself as argument pro-Capsize (cut out the blue part):
And again double standarts: (slightly corrected quote) And now compare this to what I made blue in the upper quote. Ups. Right? ItR does not force you to kick it and is just fine without it.
Last but not least:
That totaly is not my point, I have no clue where I come close to stating such a thing; my point is that Capsize is inefficient at what it does and not to be compared to 2cmc bounce.
Edit: What do Shackles (and friends) have to do with running bounce?
1x Rewind
1x Overwhelming Intellect
1x Font of Mythos
1x Wall of frost
1x Clone
1x Aeon Chronicler
1x Forsee
1x Mind Spring
1x Scattering stroke
1x Hindering touch
1x Spellbook
1x Dream Cache
1x Oppresive will
1x Fade away
1x Vex
1x Guile
1x Denizen of the deep
1x Ovinize
1x Mind Control
2x Abduction
2x sleep
2x Telepathy
2x Whirlpool Whelm
2x Cryptic annelid
2x Negate
2x Divination
3x Unsummon
4x Spell Blast
4x Boomerang
4x Essence Scatter
4x Cancel
4x Vision Skeins
This is my deck. It sucks, but im poor, and traded or pre-own all of these, so... also, my friend mixed up my maindeck and side. Pisses me off.
Thanks to Darth Monkey and SGT_Chubbz at Damnation Studios for the sig and banner.
try getting less 1 ofs
Thank you for Kennethwong, for inspiring me to do this sig pic when I was bored.
GENERATION 15: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
I'd cut these for sure,
1x Overwhelming Intellect
1x Font of Mythos
1x Scattering stroke
1x Hindering touch
1x Spellbook
1x Dream Cache
1x Oppresive will
1x Vex
1x Ovinize
2x sleep
2x Telepathy
3x Unsummon
4x Spell Blast
putting your spell count to 35, then maybe add one or two better options, getting you to 23/4 lands and replace spells not listed here with stuff from my list in the first post (those are not expensive by default).
given more info about your style, options and meta we could give you better advice.
Bounce should offer a way to survive long enough to establish control, and if possible, help maintain control without creating card disadvantage if possible.
Now, ET/Roil both help survivve the early game (to me, MUC's weakest point). And, both cards have the ability to create tempo gain by potentially bouncing multiple permanents. Not, ET has the potential of creating virtual card advantage by possibly bouncing multiple copies of a permanent, which may or may not happen. Roil, on the other hand, can bounce a single permanent for a 2 casting cost, a one for one trade, or you can pay 4 mana and bounce 2 permanents, AND draw a card to replace itself. Which, isn't bad by any means. But.........
Capsize costs more than both, at 3 for a one for one, or 6 with the buyback cost. Capsize doesn't net you a cantrip or for 4 , bounce 2 permanents either, I conceed that point. However, Capsizes resuability is how it creates virtual card advantage. Since it has buyback (if you choose to pay it), you can reuse it again and again. And, Capsize will help maintain long term control (where MUC wants to be). Capsize also allows you to save counters for threats that bounce can't target.
In conclusion, they all have their merits/flaws. I prefer Capsize for its reusable potential.
You sweep under the carpet my whole argumentation about why 2cmc bounce and Capsize have different roles and playing one over the other is thus a bad idea.
I never disagreed to any of those points. Virtual card advantage is not the right terminus, as you basically keep up a 0:0 trade (neither card leaves the hand permanently); but I get your point, as little it has to do with 2cmc bounce.
I say that 6 mana is to much for the effect, if you need to pay it each turn and it can put you in a disadvantageous situation by binding a lot resources (namely 6 mana).
btw can you name any threats that you can't (don't want to) counter but Capsize each turn?
Any of those a problem to your MUC?
I must add that after the / threat-solution is only a matter of having the proper counterspell at hand or some hate in a toolbox.
I have to say that Capsize and Disk is good option (activate Disk and in response to the ability bounce Disk), but that doesn't make me run Capsize outside of EDH, where 6 mana is a lot less.
In regards to Capsize, I guess it depends on what your using bounce for. I like to use bounce for anything that slips through counters/permanent based board control. I hate havig to use bounce, only to have to counter it again, thats a 2 for 1. Roil solves the problem of the 2 for 1 with a cantrip. But, I want some insurance late game, and Capsize offers that. Capsize is my late game catchall answer. Since its reusable, albeit at 6 mana, it can cause a painful guessing game for the opponent since they know I am holding it.
Also, Capsize is not going to be played as a 4 of (I wouldn't play more than 2 copies). You get some extra slots.
4 Counterspell
1 Rewind
3 Scattering Stroke
4 Mana leak
4 Force Spike
4 Unsummon
4 Whirlpool Whelm
1 Mind spring
1 Font of mythos
1 Aeon Chronicler
1 Denizen of the deep
Lands: 24
16 Islands
4 Mutavaults
Im missing some spaces, that should go in both creatures/wincons and draw (3 spaces).
and meta, we mostly run tribal and draft piles.
i usually play slower than most of my friends, never really having any one-drops, but my decks eventually cap at about 3-4.
Thanks to Darth Monkey and SGT_Chubbz at Damnation Studios for the sig and banner.
I was looking to build either a MUC, UW, or a UB control deck. Since this is a MUC thread I'll start there. Instead of looking for specific cards I was interested in asking what the numbers should look like. I have been told that MUC decks should look for 26 mana sources when including mana artifacts, 16 to 20-ish counters, around 4 win-con cards, and utility cards like CA and removal should make up the last 10 to 14 slots.
*I prefer to never use proxies myself, however, I respect the fact that others are okay with them. Not to get off topic, but I can understand people wantign to proxy to see if they want to buy a card, but to proxy FoW or Mana Drain just make me shake my head. These are cards you should just buy anyway. They are great and the only reason not to buy them is that they cost a lot. Anyway, back on topic.
So just to make a deck off of the top of my head while typing this, here is what I will come up with:
4 Rune Snag
4 Remand
4 Dismal Failure
2 Spell Burst
1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
1 Keiga, The Tide Star
1 Draining Whelk
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Accumulated Knowledge
26 Mana Sources
Card Choices:
Counterspell - Self Explanitory
Rune Snag - I always loved this card. Force Spike, Mana Leak and other cards all have their use. I don't think any one of those cards is better or worse than Rune Snag, I jsut liek Rune Snag. Oh, and I have 4 foil ones
Remand - Just like Run Snag, I started playing right before Ravnica came out and "grew up" on these two counter spells in standard so they have a special place in my heart. Remand is darn good too. It has a second use to this day people are unaware of. In a counter war, a remand can target your original spell you are fighting for to your hand and draw you a card to recast it next turn. Watch your opponant face when they realize what just happened.
Dismal Failure - I know people like Dismiss. Dismiss is a great card because it draws you a card and when you play multiplayer Dismiss is a far better card. Also, when you play agaisnt agro, who is dumping their hand, they may not even have cards to discard to Dismal Failure. Despite all of this, and being player who prefers mono black above all other decks, I really like the discard effect and this is casual.
Spell Burst - Simply put, when you stablize, you win with this card. Nothing is getting through. Early on you can often use it as a desperate counter, but late game is where it really shines.
Boomerang - Self explanitory. A short term answer to things that slip by.
Accumulated Knowledge - Same mechanic as Rune Snag and a fun card to play. Not the best card to put on the stick because that means one less card in your GY, but not terrible. Also a good home for my 4 AKs that haven't seen play in a few years.
Isochron Scepter - With Counterspell, boomerang, and the less than optimal choice Accumulated Knowledge, you should be able to abuse the stick.
Win Cons - I wanted to go with 4 different win-con creatures to keep the games from feeling stale. Oh, and I don't own a Guile. Oh, and having a Boomerang on a stick with Draining Whelk is fun.
P.S. I would love to see a Primer Decks: UBW Control thread. Talking about all sorts of fun budget and non budget builds would be nice. I remember playing UBW Evoke control with Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, Momentary Blink, Makeshift Manniquin, and other fun stuff; a deck about O-Ring and Vedalkin Mastermind and other interactions; a version of Dralnu Control that used Vodistone Gargoyal and some multi colored cards with white in the cost; etc. I may even make one jsut to get the ball rolling if no one else will.
When you use Isochron Scepter on a blue deck, you should use 3 Cunning Wish.
Accumulated Knowledge is quite good on the stick because if you have 1 AK in your graveyard, that's a 2 cards every turn for 2 mana.
I like Fire/Ice and Orim's Chant on the stick as well, and even though you don't have red or white in your deck, you should consider these cards as one of in your sideboard, to be tutored by Cunning Wish.
I like Cryptic Command and Rewind better than Dismal Failure. Also, Echoing Truth is better than Boomerang.
It might not be very efficient, but try using Memory Lapse on the Stick to lock your opponent into Deja vu.
hahaha i loved to do that when 7th edition was extended.
Cut 4x Unsummon, 4x Whirlpool Whelm, 1x Font of Mythos and Denizen of the Deep.
Bounce is just no answer to threats you can rely on, Font gives them gas and speeding up the game is one of the last things MUC wants to do, DotD is just to expensive to ever be cast.
Add 4x Courier's Capsule (or some equivalent cheap draw), 4x Plumeveil, 4x other speedbump that can attack (see post #1)
Replace Boomerang with either Echoing Truth or Into the Roil (reasons post #95), Scaterring Stroke with more Rewind.
Drain Life: Dismail Failure's discard is outside a discard deck a very bad advantage (you got their worst irelevant card, impressing) and not worth the extra 2 compared to Counterspell.
Remand in a MUC list is like *** in agro, the tricks you can pull are nice, but why would you not prefer hard counter over it? (If you say for the card -> run more good draw)
Spellburst is a one card lock, given the mana to play it. If you are that great a fan, you should opt for either an 8Post or Tron landbase (21/22) with 4 2cmc mana artifacts that produce U.
Boomerang - read also post #95
4 Counterspell
4 Rewind
4 Mana leak
4 Force Spike
3 Echoing truth
2 Abduction
1 Mind Control
4 Aeon Chronicler
4 Guile
1 Denizen of the deep
4 fairy conclave
58 cards
I am keeping denizen because its an 8cc 11/11, and basically one of my only win-cons.
EDIT:
-4 mutavault, -4 stalking stones +4 fairy conclave, +4 island (its too many rares in my deck, stalking stones did nothing)
-1 boomerang, -1 echoing truth (too much bounce, apparently)
+2 Abduction, +1 mind control (i have them handy, its useful)
Thanks to Darth Monkey and SGT_Chubbz at Damnation Studios for the sig and banner.
I disagree with cunning wish because this is casual. No sideboard or anything like that. I used to play Extended stick so I know what you are talking about. I may not post here a lot but I have had my share of success in competitive magic over the years and am more of a Vintage player in the long run, though over the last two years I have played EDH almost exclusively. I prefer nuts broken cards, but casual is nice to tone things down a bit and play with newer players and other casuals. I actually originally wrote rewind, then erased it and put dismiss, and then finally put the dismal failure. I have not made this deck yet or anything, just a mental build.
@Blutsau
I hear you man. I was trying to come up with a list on the spot and work from there. I agree with you about Dismal Failure in Mono Blue. I remember many people playing it as a one or two of in Dralnu and other TSB standard and block and how good it was in the control match up. Also, I play with it in EDH and it is really good. I don't know if you have ever played with it or against it, so I cannot speak for you, but one thing that drives me nuts about this forum as a whole is how often people will dismiss a card based solely on "logic" only to find out "it" [what ever "it" is] is actually good. In the end though I only own one dismiss and that is in EDH, so I am thinking when i build this deck I will end up using rewind.
Also Blutsau, I have to totally disagree with you about remand. Short answer, did you even play back in Ravnica/CS/TSP days? Remand has proven it's worth time and time again. It is that good. It is not like *** in Agro. Why would I play it over a hard counter? Because Mana Drain is too expensive, I don't use proxies, and the only "hard counter" that can hit any spell for two mana is Counterspell which is in the deck. Mana leak, Rune Snag, Memory Lapse and other are all not hard counters. Mana leak is not as good as Remand, Rune Snag is already on the list, and I am thinking about using Memory lapse on the stick. I am open to that idea. Your argument that i should run better card draw than remand shows why you don't get why it is so good. Remand on turn two or three is a virtual time walk. It has so much versatility. Simply put your argument against the card is the same one people made when Ravnica came out and it was a 50cent card that stores couldn't sell. Then some pros started playing it and suddenly it became a $5+ card that no one could find. Did it suddenly get better? Has it gotten worse? No. People in Vintage even use it from time to time at events. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you a lot in these threads, but I had to say my peace about Remand at the least.
Finally, on the issue of Spell Burst, I never really listed a mana base. In casual you can play a Sol Ring, Tolarian Academy, and other fun cards as singletons. If I am going mono blue it is likely going to have an Academy, Seats, a Sol Ring and mind stones or something. There should be plenty of mana, or you are doing something wrong.
EDIT: So I read you bit about Capsize and ItR and Boomerang and all that and also just have to skae my head and disagree with you. Keep in mind I come from the perspective of an avid EDH player so my view is a little different than yours may be, but going first and using boomerange their land during their upkeep, and the next turn a remand, etc give you such a tempo advantage and a chance to set up your late game you should have already won. The point of MUC is to get to the late game and destroying someones early game will certainly do just that. I agree with you that ET is a great card and can hit tokens. It is a great debate between the two cards. In casual you are likely to face a token swarm and that is good cause to use ET. Depending on the meta I may even move over to ET, but on a first build, Boomerang is a house. I do agree that ItR is a great card and I am willing to try it out. an ItR on the stick witch kicker would be a lot of fun. To say though that not every turn you would want something to bounce with capsize or a boomerang on a stick is silly talk. If all they have are lands to bounce, then you are winning so hard right now. That, and again, with mana accelerators, you could and should be able to bounce several things with a single capsize. You talk about 8-Post or Tron, that is a lot of mana to abuse a multi shot capsize. Also, as an EDH palyer, Capsize wins games. I'm not saying you should play with mana crypt in casual, but a game of island sol ring go followed by land mana crypt go, upkeep capsize w/ buyback is GG. No MUC needed. An early game boomstick does the same thing.
Mono Blue Control decks play mostly in the opponent's turn. Sorceries are not good options for this kind of deck. The Aeon Chroniclers are alright just because they can serve as finishers, but the Mind spring really should not be in there. You need more card drawing. Also, you have too many bouncers. If you feel the need to use bouncers late game, try Capsize instead. If you need bouncers early game, try walls instead. You really should not use more than 4 bouncers.
Another thing, you have too many Stalking stones. It takes 6 mana to make it a crature and it does not help a turn 2 Counterspell. 4 Stalking stones is too much. You should decrease to 2 or 3.
About Denizen of the deep, it is not a good option because it is very vulnarable. You don't want to spend your counter spells to protect your creature. The counter spells in your deck are supposed to counter threats, not to protect your creature, but if you have fun with the 11/11, you can keep it. I mean, I have a friend who uses Vizzerdrix as a finisher just to humiliate the opponent and he has lots of fun with it, who am I to tell him to take Vizzerdrix out of his deck?
@Drain Life:
I understand that there's no need for Cunning wish in a casual deck, it was just a suggestion. You might want to try Muddle the Mixture then, since it tutors for both the stick and the 2cmc spells, and is itself a counter spell.
Its true about the denizen being vulnerable, but it just wipes people away that its a 11/11, and they freak about it.
but i dont get why only 8 bounce spells. for example, my friend relies on an early beatdown with nip gwillon and edge of divinity. i can easily
piss him offi mean kill his two enchantments, and waste his spent mana with a single unsummon. and i play heavy multiplayer, not going to be able to counter everything.@blutsau
yes, bounce may not be an answer to threats, but i can still stall by bouncing his land in the first several turns with boomerang
Thanks to Darth Monkey and SGT_Chubbz at Damnation Studios for the sig and banner.
Now there's information we didn't have before. A deck for multiplayer games must have different strategies than a deck for 1 on 1.
In this kind of game, boomerang is still not an excelent card. Rushing River, Repulse and Evacuation work better, even though you can't have them on the stick.
You have to be very careful when choosing what cards to counter or else you won't have enough counters for the important things. Rewind plays a big role in multiplayer games, allowing for the casting og more than one counter.
You should consider a more consistent draw engine such as Rhystic Study. It is a multiplayer powerhouse.
Again I made a sub-par choice of words. Mana Leak, Rune Snag etc are all able to send a spell to the grave in the first few turns, what Remand (and Memory Lapse) can't.
Uhm, some aspects of Remand are similar to Timewalk. Timewalk in MUC makes you essentialy pay 1U to play a land and draw a card early game. Not impressive. I value the land drop very little, because the counters you play can't count on that extra land.
With Remand the op. however still drew a card and got a combat step. A lot less impressive to me.
I've to catch my bus now, I'll comment more tonight.
I think I have sai all I need to. Remand has proven it's value despite it's critics no mater if it is in MUC all the way up to 5cc. Each 2cc counter is different in it's own way. The only strictly better 2cc counter is Mana Drain followed by Counterspell. Negate is different than Remove Soul which is all different than Mana leak which is different than Rune Snag which are all different than Memory Lapse and Remand. They all serve different purposes. If I were asked to pick a 2cc counter early game to be sitting on with two mana and I can't choose Mana drain or Counterspell I would chose Remand. I have already said why. We disagree obviously and I respect that. I would like to see what other MUC players think about the use of Remand in a casual deck like this as well.
Together with Rhystic Study, it shines
Honestly I forgot about it. I didn't do a Gatherer search for 2cc counters and I didn't play back then. I like Arcane Denial but when I play it I get that "why am I letting them draw cards?!?" creepy feeling.