So far, the deck plays pretty smooth. Aside from a few minor tweaks (haven't tested Riptide Laboratory or the second Forbid) I think this is pretty much what I'm gonna stick to. I can't really think of anything that fits the deck better.
Quick Note: Vendilion Clique is so good for this deck. If you haven't tried them yet, you're only doing yourself a disservice.
I agree vendilion clique is extremely good. It's such a huge tempo booster especailly when your playing clique at the end of your opponent's turn. As for forbid, it sems pretty solid. I've actually tried out a 26 land MUC deck with treasure hunts and forbids in it. I think treasure hunts break forbids even further and it can be strong when you have extra lands to pitch for forbid's buyback.
I agree vendilion clique is extremely good. It's such a huge tempo booster especailly when your playing clique at the end of your opponent's turn. As for forbid, it sems pretty solid. I've actually tried out a 26 land MUC deck with treasure hunts and forbids in it. I think treasure hunts break forbids even further and it can be strong when you have extra lands to pitch for forbid's buyback.
After some playtesting (which wasn't much, because surprise surprise, nobody wants to rematch this deck lol) I've made the following changes:
I'm liking this a lot more. I find that I run enough countermagic (especially after squeezing in another Spell Snare and Forbid) that 3 Shoals will cover my tapped out counter needs. My early game is pretty strong with 4 Force Spike, 4 Spell Snare, and 3 Disrupting Shoal.
Having the extra Forbid is quite noticeable. More often than not I draw them at a stage of the game when I'm starting to take over or firming my grip, and Forbid really is a kick in the sack at that point. Plus, you could always pitch one to the other.
Using Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 most of the time, I really only have to make my first 4 land drops; since I'll draw into more with Ancestral Vision. Plus, I should be playing Fact or Fiction by this time, especially if I get low on land. This allows me to drop a Stalking Stones, since it's only really useful turn 6 earliest, usually turn 8-9; so 2 will suffice. I'm still playing Stones over Riptide Laboratory since the Stones do put a fair amount of pressure on the opponent. Although, I like how Riptide Lab essentially makes my deck creature removal immune. (Minus Guile, but you shouldn't play him without countermagic backup) I'll test Riptide Lab more, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up using it over Stalking Stones.
I don't know how you built your deck. But if it has some Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top or other manipulation effects with your Treasure Hunt and 26 lands, you could really put the squeeze on your opponent with Forbid. You'll consistently be able to have 1UU: Counter target spell available, and your opponent will know that; possibly making him play poorly. It's possible to go: t1 Brainstorm, t2 Treasure Hunt, t3 Forbid engine going. Keep dropping lands, hit a board sweeper (Nevinyrral's Disk maybe), keep drawing cards (Fact or Fiction really shines here as you can opt of quality cards for more Forbid fuel if you'd like, making the opponent's job that much more difficult) and finish the game as you choose.
Going a bit off track. I'd like to see your decklist if you dont mind posting it Cecilia, the concept seems interesting, effective, and slightly sadistic.
ok, quick list of stuff that I have to bash on:
play more lands-23 is the minimum, 24 is decent, 25 or 26 is where I like to be (and please try to understand that fetchlands are not a full land)
force spike is weak-yes, it is ok early game when your opponents won't have extra mana, but playing cards that are effectively forbid fodder mid to late game isn't worth it REPLACE WITH spell snare, since everybody has 2 drops, and spell snare continues to function late game
daze is awful in this deck-never never never bounce your own lands...a 1 drop is not worth time walking yourself (daze) REPLACE WITH anything (yes daze is that bad here)
deprive is miserable-sure you can bounce halimar depths and replay it to arrange the top 3 cards...so you can dig yourself out of the tempo hole you created by playing a CIPT land twice and missing a land drop REPLACE WITH any legitimate 2 mana counterspell (counterspell, mana leak, rune snag, etc)
remand-while it does cantrip, it does put the spell back into your opponents hand, so I would consider it to be closer to bounce than a real counterspell REPLACE WITH see deprive
stalking stones just doesn't cut it anymore, with all the lightning bolts and improved creatures running around REPLACE WITH gargoyle castle (+1 toughness, flying) or urza's factory (repeatable effect)
guile is a weak finisher unless you're playing force of will (in that case its fine)-we all like to remember that one game when guile let us steal a pile of cards, but there are usually many more games when guile comes down and looks like a plain old 6/6 for 6 that doesn't actually defend you REPLACE WITH oona, queen of the fae-oona flies and is black, so she can block most things that need blocking and creates a fleet of faerie tokens that can hold the line while she swings 4 times to win the game. she also mills the opponent out in case they are keeping her from attacking
anyway, I'm done for tonight, I'll finish up later
I chose to run Dismiss as a counter/draw combo so I could cut down on numbers in the deck, and Think Twice since it is recurrable. My Board Control is heavily creature based, but I like Gomozoa since it's recurrable and my meta is heavily creature/agro/swarm based.
really don't understand the isochron scepters in your deck, there are only 6 cards (I think) that can be imprinted on it
don't play pact of negation, as the drawback taps you too low
as some posters earlier mentioned, disrupting shoal is a viable budget alternative to force of will
3 draw spells isn't nearly enough, try brainstorm + fetchlands, ponder, or fact or fictions
if you can afford cryptic commands, they are a strict upgrade to dismiss
the dissipates need to be a 2 mana counterspell, possibly rune snag or mana leak (based on personal preference)
oblivion stone is not as good as nevinrryals disk (8 mana vs 5 mana)
sphinx of jwar isles is not as good as oona, queen of the fae against swarm style decks
so overall:
-3 isochron scepter
-2 pact of negation
-2 forbid
-4 dissipate
-3 oblivion stone
-2 sphinx of jwar isle
-2 halimar depths
+4 brainstorm
+2 disrupting shoal
+4 rune snag
+3 nevinrryal's disk
+1 oona, queen of the fae
+4 blue fetches
it looks like a lot of changes, but mostly its upgrading weak cards and making everything cost less mana in general while adding lands to the deck
Jace Beleren is pretty sick with Forbid..............
as is anything that draws a bunch of cards?
I honestly don't understand the point of forbid. Early game, its a cancel, which we all agree to be a terrible card. Lategame, it sucks up all the card advantage we worked to gain. Even if we have a source of card draw (Jace v1 or v2), it still costs us cards (the down payment on the planeswalker). If we really want to lock the opponent out, isn't Spell Burst infinitely better? Its CA and lets us build up a hand rather than consume it. Yes, it is terrible early game (even worse than cancel) but as a 1-of tutor target, it is vastly superior to forbid
can anybody who uses forbid explain to me why they are not using spell burst?
I use forbid because it is amazing. Early game its a cancel, a fairly bad counterspell, but not the worst. Spell burst is really limited and eats up your mana even more. It's actually almost always worse. To counter a card with CMC 5, BSA, it costs 6. 9 if you want to buyback it. For forbid? 3. If you want to buyback? 3 and discard an island and something else (guile, who i use as my finisher, cause hes fun, and that just gets shuffled back.) We work hard at card advantage, yes, but forbid is almost always still card advantage if you discard useless cards.
Also your sig has forbid but not spell burst. Just saying.
Spell burst is really limited and eats up your mana even more. It's actually almost always worse. To counter a card with CMC 5, BSA, it costs 6. 9 if you want to buyback it. For forbid? 3.
and for mana leak? 2. Nobody needs help countering 5 mana cards, as fully 1/4 (or more, for some of us) of our deck is designed to be insane against them
Its cheap lategame cards that are the problem. you can't mana leak a topdecked tarmogoyf most of the time, so this is where spell burst saves your bacon for a bargain of 6 mana rather than 3 mana and 2 cards
For forbid? 3 and discard an island and something else (guile, who i use as my finisher, cause hes fun, and that just gets shuffled back.) We work hard at card advantage, yes, but forbid is almost always still card advantage if you discard useless cards.
there are no useless cards in your deck, unless you put them there yourself. Even islands continue to be useful lategame, allowing you to play, say, cryptic command and fact or fiction in the same turn as well as pay the buyback on spell burst. They can also be brainstorm fodder when you have about 10 out already and don't benefit from having more. Brainstorms are pretty weak when you have almost no cards in your hand.
Also your sig has forbid but not spell burst. Just saying.
that is because forbid is a classic, even though it is not a good card. Decree of Silence is there too, and do you see me recommending decree of silence to anyone?
I disagree about forbid: I've been playing and working on competitive MUC extensively (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=161244) and I play forbid as a 1-of and would even like to up it to 2. It is the perfect late game counter and converts your dead extra cards (mostly islands late game) into money. Late game the 2cc vs 3cc is fairly irrelevant and it is a hard counter unlike mana leak. Remember, good MUC plays a lot of card draw, which will mean extra redundant cards. It is definitely playable and I would even suggest it.
I don't have enough playing experience with spell burst to say either way about it, although it is quite likely in a mana-heavy draw heavy build to play both.
Anyway, here is my super tweaked competitive list:
V clique is especially nice in competitive magic, but isn't as necessary in casual either. Sphinx of Jwar Isle and Teferi, mage of zhalfir could both be upped to 2. Meloku is still playable as well and sphinx of magosi might be good enough.
Remand is not stellar but is playable as it helps you to get your mana set up, which is very important. Daze and deprive however are both not playable in MUC. MUC is all about trading counters for threats 1-1, refilling hand with super efficient card draw, and then locking the opponent out of the game with your superior card advantage. This requires you to hit your land drops up to T5, which both daze and deprive stop. Both cards tempo you way too much and should be avoided.
Here are a few other cool cards I'd love to see in casual MUC:
Anyway, hope this helps. I've been playing MUC off and on for 10 years and it has been my favorite deck since then. There are a lot of great cards for it and it can be played several different ways.
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Late game the 2cc vs 3cc is fairly irrelevant and it is a hard counter unlike mana leak.
*sigh* completely missed the point. If your opponent casts a 5 mana card (in the question it was BSA, which is pretty weak against MUC, but anyway...) which card would you rather have most of the time? mana leak or forbid?
Simple: mana leak-it costs less mana and it lets you get rid of it for value (whereas if you pitch mana leak + something to forbid, you get no value from the mana leak)
converts your dead extra cards (mostly islands late game) into money
that's brainstorm's job description, and you can't turn your islands into useful stuff if you've already discarded the said islands to forbid
forbid converts 2 islands into 1 counterspell, whereas brainstorm converts 2 islands into the top 3 cards of your deck, and 3>1, so I'd rather brainstorm my islands away
the other thing you can do with your islands is play them (GASP) and use them to power up spell burst, which almost always wins the game when you have 7 or 8 lands out. anything that costs 3-4 will get spell bursted, and anything that costs more can be countered with the mana leaks or rune snags that you HAVEN'T been pitching to forbid
the best part about this is that you can start chaining fact or fictions the moment your opponent stops playing stuff. options are good
*sigh* completely missed the point. If your opponent casts a 5 mana card (in the question it was BSA, which is pretty weak against MUC, but anyway...) which card would you rather have most of the time? mana leak or forbid?
Simple: mana leak-it costs less mana and it lets you get rid of it for value (whereas if you pitch mana leak + something to forbid, you get no value from the mana leak)
Obviously, one doesn't discard an equivalent spell to Forbid, but pitching f.e. Daze can be legit. In decks with more situational counters and a lower end of the curve, or a faster end game in general, pitching superfluous Islands is also nothing bad.
that's brainstorm's job description, and you can't turn your islands into useful stuff if you've already discarded the said islands to forbid
forbid converts 2 islands into 1 counterspell, whereas brainstorm converts 2 islands into the top 3 cards of your deck, and 3>1, so I'd rather brainstorm my islands away
Brainstorm: Unlike you shuffle afterwards, you'll have draw these Islands before the next possible spell - and as this is MUC, you will draw these cards, because you most likely won't end the game before that. Brainstorm is -1+3-2 = 0, and no extra spell. Forbid however turns two drawn Islands into a spell what is -2+1-1+1 = -1, but an extra spell.
Not that I think it's a good comparision, but your '3>1' is simply wrong.
the other thing you can do with your islands is play them (GASP) and use them to power up spell burst, which almost always wins the game when you have 7 or 8 lands out. anything that costs 3-4 will get spell bursted, and anything that costs more can be countered with the mana leaks or rune snags that you HAVEN'T been pitching to forbid
the best part about this is that you can start chaining fact or fictions the moment your opponent stops playing stuff. options are good
It's obvious you like Spell Burst. When others says it's to expensive, then you should come to the conclusion that they don't come into a game state where thay have enough mana to cast it for a relevant x. That's not necessarily because they lose before that, but because they their decks are built different, as I said above.
I personally wouldn't play Burst without Tron & Forbid when I had more solid options for the other counters and maybe some recurrsion, but that's me.
@ Kenneth: If your list (that I had to find first) is still the same I doubt you'll need the Tower.
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Forbid is absolutely amazing, make no mistake about it.
MUC is more than just card advantage and counterspells. It's more than fending off the attack and neutralizing the board. You have to keep it that way, and then exert the proper amount of pressure (which isn't much). This is where Forbid is unmatched in power. I wouldn't even consider playing another card in it's place -except maybe Spell Burst in some sort of tron or big mana blue.
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play, Forbid in hand with a few cards and 7 Islands. Your opponent must cast through Forbid twice, risking being countered twice and still getting a threat stolen. If he doesn't, you play a Fact or Fiction, where every 2 non-Counterspell cards is another Forbid. You essentially never have to search for another counterspell for the rest of the game, you already have it. You just fuel it with cards you don't need to win.
Remember, you only need to do 20 to your opponent before he does it to you. You don't need to have him locked under Spell Burst, you can use that extra mana to activate a Stalking Stones or flash a Vendilion Clique into play to finish the game faster. Forbid is insurance: If you have one and have a decent position (cards in hand, mana, field) which is your goal in MUC, you'll always have an answer that you can decide to play and retain.
As a quick aside, my list from last page, still unchanged, is just ripping through every deck I play my friends with. It's gotten so bad that I play a fun Phage/Endless Whispers control deck to keep them from crying. Their decks are pretty good, but they don't even stand a ghost of a chance...
For casual, Forbid is a bomb. Its a hard counter, and its buyback can potentially lock a player out of the game. With all the card advantage engines like Jace (either version), you have plenty of fuel for Forbid. Heck, you could even use the ubiquitous Ophidian, that was used in the days of yesteryore as the card drawing engine. I think thats the point, you need an actual continual card drawing effect to abuse Forbid, hence why Jace and or Ophidian make honorable mention.
I don't understand why people play Brainstorm without Fetches, that seems atrocious. I'd rather play Impulse for library manipulation. Dig plus shuffle and can move the unwanted jank to the bottom, and reshuffle to boot if you want. Plus its an instant unlike Ponder. Seems like a win.
the only arguments so far for forbid have been pretty weak because they...
1: count on the MUC pilot being a bad deckbuilder/player
2: give situations in which the MUC pilot has no chance of losing, making forbid just a "win more" card
for example, daze-this is probably the most named spell that you would pitch to forbid. However, if you play daze in your MUC deck, you are a bad deckbuilder, because daze is one of the worst counterspells possible in the deck. I think the reason why people still try to play it is that they see daze in legacy decks like merfolk and reanimator and put it in their decks without really thinking about it
stalking stones-why would you play a finisher that is outclassed by many 1 and 2 drops, which have a nasty habit of getting onto the field before most counterspells can be used?
using bad deckbuilding to justify using forbid makes no sense
ok now for the win more scenario:
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play
its turn 7, so your opponent has 7 lands and 7 spells (max)
he has no creatures
you have vedalken shackles
how would you lose this?
and how much would your opponent have to suck (or be unlucky, as they have as many lands as non-lands) for them to get into a position like this?
and for future reference, I play neither forbid nor spell burst because both of them are awful in games that are remotely close. I'm just explaining that spell burst sucks less to those that feel the need to lock their opponents out, as you don't need a huge CA lead to keep the lock going
I usually have won the game by turn 7-8 anyway because I use the thopter/sword combo, which is really hard to beat through light (11) counterspells
I don't have a lot of time, so I'll be quick and concise.
the only arguments so far for forbid have been pretty weak because they...
1: count on the MUC pilot being a bad deckbuilder/player
2: give situations in which the MUC pilot has no chance of losing, making forbid just a "win more" card
for example, daze-this is probably the most named spell that you would pitch to forbid. However, if you play daze in your MUC deck, you are a bad deckbuilder, because daze is one of the worst counterspells possible in the deck. I think the reason why people still try to play it is that they see daze in legacy decks like merfolk and reanimator and put it in their decks without really thinking about it
That seems like a very harsh thing to say. Essentially calling anyone who plays Forbid a noob is kind of underhanded, true or not.
What you say about Daze I agree with. It's a good card in its own right and is very useful to combat certain things, but it has next to no place in MUC; it's too counterproductive to the overall strategy IMO.
Also, you don't put cards in a deck to pitch to Forbid, you build your deck counting on it. I don't care if it's bad deckbuilding practice, it works in this situation. The cards you pitch to Forbid are 100% usable without it, and in fact, become more usable with it. Force Spike, Spell Snare, Ancestral Vision, extra lands, extra Oblivion Stones: all powerful when you need them (I need to write an article on how powerful Force Spike is, I swear), and once they lose their value, you can pitch them to Forbid without thinking twice. Even better is cracking a Fact or Fiction and picking the 3-pile with Force Spike, Ancestral Vision, Island and scooping them up just to fuel the Forbid in your hand. Powerful stuff.
No argument here. Brainstorm is awesome with shuffle effects.
stalking stones-why would you play a finisher that is outclassed by many 1 and 2 drops, which have a nasty habit of getting onto the field before most counterspells can be used?
The only reason I play Stalking Stones is because I'm too cheap to buy Mishra's Workshop/Mutavault. However, even those powerhouses cannot do what the Stones do, which is become a permanent threat at instant speed. It makes mana for you until you need it, and after you need it, and only needs a one time commitment at a point in the game where you would be looking for a card such as itself. Paying for things at the end if the opponent's turn is an irreplaceable effect. Again, I'm not saying its a hidden gem, I'm just saying that it's a great replacement if budget is tight, and fits a different niche.
ok now for the win more scenario:
Quote:
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play
its turn 7, so your opponent has 7 lands and 7 spells (max)
he has no creatures
you have vedalken shackles
how would you lose this?
and how much would your opponent have to suck (or be unlucky, as they have as many lands as non-lands) for them to get into a position like this?
First off, that's a far from doomed game for the opponent. Depending on the deck, he could still force through key spells against your 2 counterspells in hand, perhaps. This is where Forbid is golden. It's not a lock, it's insurance. You counter a couple of those spells that could give you trouble, and ride home to victory slowly and surely. Spell Burst could also work in this situation, again, not as a lock, but as insurance. The only difference is that you need to have a hard counter for expensive spells and keep mana to Spell Burst the little ones. It works just fine, but I find that I have extra cards to pitch rather than having a specific counterspell and worrying about mana.
and for future reference, I play neither forbid nor spell burst because both of them are awful in games that are remotely close. I'm just explaining that spell burst sucks less to those that feel the need to lock their opponents out, as you don't need a huge CA lead to keep the lock going
I usually have won the game by turn 7-8 anyway because I use the thopter/sword combo, which is really hard to beat through light (11) counterspells
I'm just quickly going to restate that Forbid-LOCK should have a deck built around it. Forbid "insurance" (ie. just paying the buyback to keep a counterspell for when you need it) is a very powerful effect that is easy to keep up with sufficient card draw (I run just 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Fact or Fiction and its plenty). To be honest, I usually win the game by turn 12-16, slowly winning with a clique/stones/one of their critters, only when I feel it's safe commit to some offense.
Besides, this is casual after all. Force of Will is better than Disrupting Shoal, but is more expensive and less fun.
Funny you should mention thopter-sword, I played against an awesome thopter equipment deck that was just jaw-droppingly cool and efficient. The guy played thopters, frogmites i believe, and maybe some other cheap/free critters, and basically had a curve of cheap/efficient equipment, including swords. He gave a lot of people headaches, and has inspired me to try a new deck-building technique once the new, sure to be equipment heavy block comes out.
The last one'a these I did, was trying to make a $10 green ramp deck for a buddy, new to the game. The idea, a fully functional, decent, casual deck for less than the cost of a 12pack of "carbonated beverage"...$10 deck challenge. He liked it...now he wants blue control...can it be done for $10???
Yikes, a newbie and MUC, and $10!?! Say it ain't soooooo [/weezer]
Okay, so he saw me play my MUC, then a buddy played his...voila, another blue convert. Note that our playgroup is very oldschool, and is casual pretty casual...we each have some strong decks (and we're vintage, so some are vintage-strong, including a guy with a mox) but most of ours are casual strength. So without further ado, lets give $10 MUC a shot.
Counters: The base, we need a control suite of about 20 cards...most of which should be counters. Counterspell ($1 per) as many as we have money left after the rest of the deck. Really wants to be 4-of...would it neuter the rest of the deck for 40% of it's cost to be 4 cards? Cancel ($.25 for 4): Sub-par unconditional counter, but ole'counterspell is like $1...(how in the hell did counterspell get up to $1 value? ) Exclude ($.60 for 4): Cantrip counter for 3...good. Negate ($.40 for 4): Force Spike ($1 for 4): Great psychological tool, sometimes its a "free timewalk" ;). 1/10 of the cost of the deck though :-\ Man-O'-War ($.80): Bounce-and-beat in one...good tempo. Into the Roil ($.50 for 4): Bounce and can cantrip. Mind Control: ($.25 for 3) Could be in the "winners" column
Draw: Cuz' we're blue. Ponder: Cheap, digs 3. Not instant, but not $1 per card. Augury Owl: Deck Fixes, digs. Can "attack" Thieving Magpie ($.50): Draw Engine. Opportunity ($.50): Instant Speed draw. Cheap $-wise.
Win Condition
Mahamoti Djinn (are there any other budget options)?
Spire Golum
These challenges always remind me of how expensive even a budget deck can be. *sigh*
Questions on the budget:
- What source should we use for prices?
- Can you acquire any cards through trades (this would help greatly) or should the whole thing not cost more than 10$ including trades?
to be edited when my inet works again at normal speed (soon I hope)
ok, I use T'n'T for prices, given that a common costs a quarter per, a budget of 10$ is really thight.
It's 9.86$ if you don't buy Islands, if you get commons for under 0.25/card it'll be even less. First thing I'd do if more money is avaible, is to upgrade trap to Wash Out, then the counters.
These challenges always remind me of how expensive even a budget deck can be. *sigh*
Questions on the budget:
- What source should we use for prices?
- Can you acquire any cards through trades (this would help greatly) or should the whole thing not cost more than 10$ including trades?
to be edited when my inet works again at normal speed (soon I hope)
I hear ya' re: "budget". This game has gotten awfully expensive since I stopped playing the first time. The duals, holy *bleep*...I bought my playset of underground sea for $20 on ebay, in '99ish...I was pretty angry that they were "that much" at the time.
magiccards.info prices are fine, any pricing that's "low" but either a well-known vendor (ie channelfirebal / troll&toad), or many many vendors are around that price. I know that's kinda' vague, but basically, what's a practical low price from magiccards.info. You could look at starcity too, I guess.
Originally I was thinking of not including trades, b/c this guy doesn't have a "collection", just the deck we made for him, which he paid us (okay, me) for. For the purpose of the challenge, assume no trades I guess. We may end up just giving him a playset of counterspell, as we've all got mult playsets in our collections from back then...it used to be a "penny common".
@ Warden...Goliath Sphinx :eek:. Wow, why is that card not worth more? Mahamoti Djinn used to be the card for these decks and Goliath Sphinx is waay better for 1 more. Flying isn't good enough, it needs shroud now, I assume (power creep)? That's probably going to be the winner...dirt cheap, and huge.
- Argent Sphinx: People say it's the new Rainbow Efreet. For now, I tend to ask myself what three artifacts make it possible to play this. Possibly an option in artifact focused decks, as Casual can use artifact lands.
- Chimeric Mass: I am a sucker for Trinket Mage and this is a Wrath resilant, scalable beatstick that can be recurred and tutored up easily.
- Soliton: Budget Morphling. Ain't it lovely?
- Ratchet Bomb: Should be added where Powder Keg is mentioned, for completeness sake.
- Stoic Rebuttal: Atleast Cancel, at best Counterspell. Same as Sphinx.
- Darksteel Myr: Another 3cmc speedbump.
- Etched Champion: Same question as Sphinx, but in the role of a blocker. Bonus, this only needs two other things.
- Neurok Replica: yet another speedbump, brings some utility at the cost of durability.
- Plated Seastrider: Yet another speedbump.
As you can see I'm quite pleased with the options SoM gives MUC. Strider, Replica & Soliton just make me all warm and fuzzy inside. ^^ Not the most spikiest cards, but cute.
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Why bother with the new stuff? It's rather janky for MUC to be honest. Whats wrong with good 'ole Rainbow Efreet? Treachery? Propaganda? Fact or Fiction? I mean, I know its new and all, but it seems like dirty old salami and socks compared to the classics available...........no offense.
Because:
- uniformity isn't what primers are intended for. Just because this isn't 'omg-Timmy' Dragons, doesn't mean that every one wants an 'optimal' classic list.
- to improve one needs to test new options.
- new cards might be easier to get / cheaper.
- new cards might be what is played. Just because a group uses only new frames, doesn't mean there aren't options for them to build MUC.
I'm not seriously gonna put Soliton or Replica in a Spike-ish list, but just for fun, why not?
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I agree vendilion clique is extremely good. It's such a huge tempo booster especailly when your playing clique at the end of your opponent's turn. As for forbid, it sems pretty solid. I've actually tried out a 26 land MUC deck with treasure hunts and forbids in it. I think treasure hunts break forbids even further and it can be strong when you have extra lands to pitch for forbid's buyback.
After some playtesting (which wasn't much, because surprise surprise, nobody wants to rematch this deck lol) I've made the following changes:
-1 Stalking Stones
-1 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Forbid
Which brings me to this:
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Cryptic Command
2 Forbid
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Oblivion Stone
1 Guile
21 Island
2 Stalking Stones
I'm liking this a lot more. I find that I run enough countermagic (especially after squeezing in another Spell Snare and Forbid) that 3 Shoals will cover my tapped out counter needs. My early game is pretty strong with 4 Force Spike, 4 Spell Snare, and 3 Disrupting Shoal.
Having the extra Forbid is quite noticeable. More often than not I draw them at a stage of the game when I'm starting to take over or firming my grip, and Forbid really is a kick in the sack at that point. Plus, you could always pitch one to the other.
Using Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 most of the time, I really only have to make my first 4 land drops; since I'll draw into more with Ancestral Vision. Plus, I should be playing Fact or Fiction by this time, especially if I get low on land. This allows me to drop a Stalking Stones, since it's only really useful turn 6 earliest, usually turn 8-9; so 2 will suffice. I'm still playing Stones over Riptide Laboratory since the Stones do put a fair amount of pressure on the opponent. Although, I like how Riptide Lab essentially makes my deck creature removal immune. (Minus Guile, but you shouldn't play him without countermagic backup) I'll test Riptide Lab more, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up using it over Stalking Stones.
I don't know how you built your deck. But if it has some Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top or other manipulation effects with your Treasure Hunt and 26 lands, you could really put the squeeze on your opponent with Forbid. You'll consistently be able to have 1UU: Counter target spell available, and your opponent will know that; possibly making him play poorly. It's possible to go: t1 Brainstorm, t2 Treasure Hunt, t3 Forbid engine going. Keep dropping lands, hit a board sweeper (Nevinyrral's Disk maybe), keep drawing cards (Fact or Fiction really shines here as you can opt of quality cards for more Forbid fuel if you'd like, making the opponent's job that much more difficult) and finish the game as you choose.
Going a bit off track. I'd like to see your decklist if you dont mind posting it Cecilia, the concept seems interesting, effective, and slightly sadistic.
ok, quick list of stuff that I have to bash on:
play more lands-23 is the minimum, 24 is decent, 25 or 26 is where I like to be (and please try to understand that fetchlands are not a full land)
force spike is weak-yes, it is ok early game when your opponents won't have extra mana, but playing cards that are effectively forbid fodder mid to late game isn't worth it REPLACE WITH spell snare, since everybody has 2 drops, and spell snare continues to function late game
daze is awful in this deck-never never never bounce your own lands...a 1 drop is not worth time walking yourself (daze) REPLACE WITH anything (yes daze is that bad here)
deprive is miserable-sure you can bounce halimar depths and replay it to arrange the top 3 cards...so you can dig yourself out of the tempo hole you created by playing a CIPT land twice and missing a land drop REPLACE WITH any legitimate 2 mana counterspell (counterspell, mana leak, rune snag, etc)
remand-while it does cantrip, it does put the spell back into your opponents hand, so I would consider it to be closer to bounce than a real counterspell REPLACE WITH see deprive
stalking stones just doesn't cut it anymore, with all the lightning bolts and improved creatures running around REPLACE WITH gargoyle castle (+1 toughness, flying) or urza's factory (repeatable effect)
guile is a weak finisher unless you're playing force of will (in that case its fine)-we all like to remember that one game when guile let us steal a pile of cards, but there are usually many more games when guile comes down and looks like a plain old 6/6 for 6 that doesn't actually defend you REPLACE WITH oona, queen of the fae-oona flies and is black, so she can block most things that need blocking and creates a fleet of faerie tokens that can hold the line while she swings 4 times to win the game. she also mills the opponent out in case they are keeping her from attacking
anyway, I'm done for tonight, I'll finish up later
The answer is still NO
4x Counterspell
4x Dismiss
3x Forbid
2x Pact of Negation
4x Dissapate
3x Oblivion Stone
4x Gomozoa
3x Wall of Tears
Draw
1x Ancestral Vision
2x Think Twice
3x Isochron Sceptor
1x Sensei's Diving Top
Wincon Creatures
1x Guile
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Lands
22x Island
2x Halimar Depths
I chose to run Dismiss as a counter/draw combo so I could cut down on numbers in the deck, and Think Twice since it is recurrable. My Board Control is heavily creature based, but I like Gomozoa since it's recurrable and my meta is heavily creature/agro/swarm based.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
don't play pact of negation, as the drawback taps you too low
as some posters earlier mentioned, disrupting shoal is a viable budget alternative to force of will
3 draw spells isn't nearly enough, try brainstorm + fetchlands, ponder, or fact or fictions
if you can afford cryptic commands, they are a strict upgrade to dismiss
the dissipates need to be a 2 mana counterspell, possibly rune snag or mana leak (based on personal preference)
oblivion stone is not as good as nevinrryals disk (8 mana vs 5 mana)
sphinx of jwar isles is not as good as oona, queen of the fae against swarm style decks
so overall:
-3 isochron scepter
-2 pact of negation
-2 forbid
-4 dissipate
-3 oblivion stone
-2 sphinx of jwar isle
-2 halimar depths
+4 brainstorm
+2 disrupting shoal
+4 rune snag
+3 nevinrryal's disk
+1 oona, queen of the fae
+4 blue fetches
it looks like a lot of changes, but mostly its upgrading weak cards and making everything cost less mana in general while adding lands to the deck
The answer is still NO
as is anything that draws a bunch of cards?
I honestly don't understand the point of forbid. Early game, its a cancel, which we all agree to be a terrible card. Lategame, it sucks up all the card advantage we worked to gain. Even if we have a source of card draw (Jace v1 or v2), it still costs us cards (the down payment on the planeswalker). If we really want to lock the opponent out, isn't Spell Burst infinitely better? Its CA and lets us build up a hand rather than consume it. Yes, it is terrible early game (even worse than cancel) but as a 1-of tutor target, it is vastly superior to forbid
can anybody who uses forbid explain to me why they are not using spell burst?
The answer is still NO
Also your sig has forbid but not spell burst. Just saying.
MTG Rules adviser.
and for mana leak? 2. Nobody needs help countering 5 mana cards, as fully 1/4 (or more, for some of us) of our deck is designed to be insane against them
Its cheap lategame cards that are the problem. you can't mana leak a topdecked tarmogoyf most of the time, so this is where spell burst saves your bacon for a bargain of 6 mana rather than 3 mana and 2 cards
there are no useless cards in your deck, unless you put them there yourself. Even islands continue to be useful lategame, allowing you to play, say, cryptic command and fact or fiction in the same turn as well as pay the buyback on spell burst. They can also be brainstorm fodder when you have about 10 out already and don't benefit from having more. Brainstorms are pretty weak when you have almost no cards in your hand.
that is because forbid is a classic, even though it is not a good card. Decree of Silence is there too, and do you see me recommending decree of silence to anyone?
The answer is still NO
I don't have enough playing experience with spell burst to say either way about it, although it is quite likely in a mana-heavy draw heavy build to play both.
Anyway, here is my super tweaked competitive list:
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Cryptic Command
3x Spell Snare
1x Forbid
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x Back to Basics
3x Powder Keg
3x Ancestral Visions
2x Brainstorm + fetches, or ponder, or impulse
2x Vendillion Clique
1x Teferi, mage of zhalfir
1x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3x Energy Field
3x Spell Pierce
2x Propaganda
2x Pithing Needle
1x Powder Keg
1x Vedalkan Shackles
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Misdirection
Now for casual obviously a few things have to go. Force of will is too pricey and back to basics is much weaker. Vedalken shackles are extremely effective but can be substituted with the somewhat weaker treachery or maybe control magic if money is an issue.
V clique is especially nice in competitive magic, but isn't as necessary in casual either. Sphinx of Jwar Isle and Teferi, mage of zhalfir could both be upped to 2. Meloku is still playable as well and sphinx of magosi might be good enough.
Powder keg is quite helpful...not sure if it can be replaced. Maybe oblivion stone.
Remand is not stellar but is playable as it helps you to get your mana set up, which is very important. Daze and deprive however are both not playable in MUC. MUC is all about trading counters for threats 1-1, refilling hand with super efficient card draw, and then locking the opponent out of the game with your superior card advantage. This requires you to hit your land drops up to T5, which both daze and deprive stop. Both cards tempo you way too much and should be avoided.
Here are a few other cool cards I'd love to see in casual MUC:
-Ivory tower
-Capsize
-Wash out
-Spelljack
-Draining Whelk
-Into the roil/wipe away
-Mishra's factory
-Rune snag
-Nev disk
-Jace's ingenuity might be good enough after 4x fact or fiction if you don't want to play visions.
-Rewind and dismiss are probably playable if cryptic is not available.
-Mulldrifter is interesting, plumeveil is interesting
Anyway, hope this helps. I've been playing MUC off and on for 10 years and it has been my favorite deck since then. There are a lot of great cards for it and it can be played several different ways.
Standard
Blows
Modern
BWUTeachingsBWU
GUGU TempoGU
WLifeW
RWValakut ControlRW
UBModern MillUB
Legacy
UMUCU
BPoxB
BWRTokensBWR
Pauper
UBGRW Domain UBGRW
Vintage
RVise-Burn!R
"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight was ever made" - Immanuel Kant
Simple: mana leak-it costs less mana and it lets you get rid of it for value (whereas if you pitch mana leak + something to forbid, you get no value from the mana leak)
that's brainstorm's job description, and you can't turn your islands into useful stuff if you've already discarded the said islands to forbid
forbid converts 2 islands into 1 counterspell, whereas brainstorm converts 2 islands into the top 3 cards of your deck, and 3>1, so I'd rather brainstorm my islands away
the other thing you can do with your islands is play them (GASP) and use them to power up spell burst, which almost always wins the game when you have 7 or 8 lands out. anything that costs 3-4 will get spell bursted, and anything that costs more can be countered with the mana leaks or rune snags that you HAVEN'T been pitching to forbid
the best part about this is that you can start chaining fact or fictions the moment your opponent stops playing stuff. options are good
The answer is still NO
I was thinking along the lines of:
1 Urza's factory
1 Quicksand
1 reliquary tower
1 Faerie conclave
20 island
Any suggestions?
Thanks to Darth Monkey and SGT_Chubbz at Damnation Studios for the sig and banner.
Obviously, one doesn't discard an equivalent spell to Forbid, but pitching f.e. Daze can be legit. In decks with more situational counters and a lower end of the curve, or a faster end game in general, pitching superfluous Islands is also nothing bad.
Brainstorm: Unlike you shuffle afterwards, you'll have draw these Islands before the next possible spell - and as this is MUC, you will draw these cards, because you most likely won't end the game before that. Brainstorm is -1+3-2 = 0, and no extra spell. Forbid however turns two drawn Islands into a spell what is -2+1-1+1 = -1, but an extra spell.
Not that I think it's a good comparision, but your '3>1' is simply wrong.
It's obvious you like Spell Burst. When others says it's to expensive, then you should come to the conclusion that they don't come into a game state where thay have enough mana to cast it for a relevant x. That's not necessarily because they lose before that, but because they their decks are built different, as I said above.
I personally wouldn't play Burst without Tron & Forbid when I had more solid options for the other counters and maybe some recurrsion, but that's me.
@ Kenneth: If your list (that I had to find first) is still the same I doubt you'll need the Tower.
MUC is more than just card advantage and counterspells. It's more than fending off the attack and neutralizing the board. You have to keep it that way, and then exert the proper amount of pressure (which isn't much). This is where Forbid is unmatched in power. I wouldn't even consider playing another card in it's place -except maybe Spell Burst in some sort of tron or big mana blue.
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play, Forbid in hand with a few cards and 7 Islands. Your opponent must cast through Forbid twice, risking being countered twice and still getting a threat stolen. If he doesn't, you play a Fact or Fiction, where every 2 non-Counterspell cards is another Forbid. You essentially never have to search for another counterspell for the rest of the game, you already have it. You just fuel it with cards you don't need to win.
Remember, you only need to do 20 to your opponent before he does it to you. You don't need to have him locked under Spell Burst, you can use that extra mana to activate a Stalking Stones or flash a Vendilion Clique into play to finish the game faster. Forbid is insurance: If you have one and have a decent position (cards in hand, mana, field) which is your goal in MUC, you'll always have an answer that you can decide to play and retain.
As a quick aside, my list from last page, still unchanged, is just ripping through every deck I play my friends with. It's gotten so bad that I play a fun Phage/Endless Whispers control deck to keep them from crying. Their decks are pretty good, but they don't even stand a ghost of a chance...
Was reading thru the thread and just thought of something.
Why isn't the stasis archetype spoken here?
This is the MUC list I run currently.
4 Forsaken City
19 Island
// Other Spells
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Daze
4 Ensnare
4 Force of Will
3 Gigadrowse
4 Impulse
1 Spell Pierce
3 Thwart
1 Frozen Aether
4 Stasis
4 Howling Mine
1 Jace Beleren
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I don't understand why people play Brainstorm without Fetches, that seems atrocious. I'd rather play Impulse for library manipulation. Dig plus shuffle and can move the unwanted jank to the bottom, and reshuffle to boot if you want. Plus its an instant unlike Ponder. Seems like a win.
1: count on the MUC pilot being a bad deckbuilder/player
2: give situations in which the MUC pilot has no chance of losing, making forbid just a "win more" card
for example, daze-this is probably the most named spell that you would pitch to forbid. However, if you play daze in your MUC deck, you are a bad deckbuilder, because daze is one of the worst counterspells possible in the deck. I think the reason why people still try to play it is that they see daze in legacy decks like merfolk and reanimator and put it in their decks without really thinking about it
the brainstorm argument-of course I'll crack a fetchland after playing brainstorm...why wouldn't I? for reference on how it is meant to be played, http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html
stalking stones-why would you play a finisher that is outclassed by many 1 and 2 drops, which have a nasty habit of getting onto the field before most counterspells can be used?
using bad deckbuilding to justify using forbid makes no sense
ok now for the win more scenario:
its turn 7, so your opponent has 7 lands and 7 spells (max)
he has no creatures
you have vedalken shackles
how would you lose this?
and how much would your opponent have to suck (or be unlucky, as they have as many lands as non-lands) for them to get into a position like this?
and for future reference, I play neither forbid nor spell burst because both of them are awful in games that are remotely close. I'm just explaining that spell burst sucks less to those that feel the need to lock their opponents out, as you don't need a huge CA lead to keep the lock going
I usually have won the game by turn 7-8 anyway because I use the thopter/sword combo, which is really hard to beat through light (11) counterspells
The answer is still NO
That seems like a very harsh thing to say. Essentially calling anyone who plays Forbid a noob is kind of underhanded, true or not.
What you say about Daze I agree with. It's a good card in its own right and is very useful to combat certain things, but it has next to no place in MUC; it's too counterproductive to the overall strategy IMO.
Also, you don't put cards in a deck to pitch to Forbid, you build your deck counting on it. I don't care if it's bad deckbuilding practice, it works in this situation. The cards you pitch to Forbid are 100% usable without it, and in fact, become more usable with it. Force Spike, Spell Snare, Ancestral Vision, extra lands, extra Oblivion Stones: all powerful when you need them (I need to write an article on how powerful Force Spike is, I swear), and once they lose their value, you can pitch them to Forbid without thinking twice. Even better is cracking a Fact or Fiction and picking the 3-pile with Force Spike, Ancestral Vision, Island and scooping them up just to fuel the Forbid in your hand. Powerful stuff.
No argument here. Brainstorm is awesome with shuffle effects.
The only reason I play Stalking Stones is because I'm too cheap to buy Mishra's Workshop/Mutavault. However, even those powerhouses cannot do what the Stones do, which is become a permanent threat at instant speed. It makes mana for you until you need it, and after you need it, and only needs a one time commitment at a point in the game where you would be looking for a card such as itself. Paying for things at the end if the opponent's turn is an irreplaceable effect. Again, I'm not saying its a hidden gem, I'm just saying that it's a great replacement if budget is tight, and fits a different niche.
First off, that's a far from doomed game for the opponent. Depending on the deck, he could still force through key spells against your 2 counterspells in hand, perhaps. This is where Forbid is golden. It's not a lock, it's insurance. You counter a couple of those spells that could give you trouble, and ride home to victory slowly and surely. Spell Burst could also work in this situation, again, not as a lock, but as insurance. The only difference is that you need to have a hard counter for expensive spells and keep mana to Spell Burst the little ones. It works just fine, but I find that I have extra cards to pitch rather than having a specific counterspell and worrying about mana.
I'm just quickly going to restate that Forbid-LOCK should have a deck built around it. Forbid "insurance" (ie. just paying the buyback to keep a counterspell for when you need it) is a very powerful effect that is easy to keep up with sufficient card draw (I run just 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Fact or Fiction and its plenty). To be honest, I usually win the game by turn 12-16, slowly winning with a clique/stones/one of their critters, only when I feel it's safe commit to some offense.
Besides, this is casual after all. Force of Will is better than Disrupting Shoal, but is more expensive and less fun.
Funny you should mention thopter-sword, I played against an awesome thopter equipment deck that was just jaw-droppingly cool and efficient. The guy played thopters, frogmites i believe, and maybe some other cheap/free critters, and basically had a curve of cheap/efficient equipment, including swords. He gave a lot of people headaches, and has inspired me to try a new deck-building technique once the new, sure to be equipment heavy block comes out.
Yikes, a newbie and MUC, and $10!?! Say it ain't soooooo [/weezer]
Okay, so he saw me play my MUC, then a buddy played his...voila, another blue convert. Note that our playgroup is very oldschool, and is casual pretty casual...we each have some strong decks (and we're vintage, so some are vintage-strong, including a guy with a mox) but most of ours are casual strength. So without further ado, lets give $10 MUC a shot.
Here's the start I'm thinking...Counters, other control, draw, winners, mana....The typical: 16 counters, 8 "other control", 4'ish Win Conditions, 10 draw, 22-24 Islands.
Counters: The base, we need a control suite of about 20 cards...most of which should be counters.
Counterspell ($1 per) as many as we have money left after the rest of the deck. Really wants to be 4-of...would it neuter the rest of the deck for 40% of it's cost to be 4 cards?
Cancel ($.25 for 4): Sub-par unconditional counter, but ole'counterspell is like $1...(how in the hell did counterspell get up to $1 value? )
Exclude ($.60 for 4): Cantrip counter for 3...good.
Negate ($.40 for 4):
Force Spike ($1 for 4): Great psychological tool, sometimes its a "free timewalk" ;). 1/10 of the cost of the deck though :-\
Man-O'-War ($.80): Bounce-and-beat in one...good tempo.
Into the Roil ($.50 for 4): Bounce and can cantrip.
Mind Control: ($.25 for 3) Could be in the "winners" column
Draw: Cuz' we're blue.
Ponder: Cheap, digs 3. Not instant, but not $1 per card.
Augury Owl: Deck Fixes, digs. Can "attack"
Thieving Magpie ($.50): Draw Engine.
Opportunity ($.50): Instant Speed draw. Cheap $-wise.
Win Condition
Mahamoti Djinn (are there any other budget options)?
Spire Golum
Mana
Would it be anything but 22-24 Islands?
Thoughts? Can $10 MUC be done?
DRum
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
Questions on the budget:
- What source should we use for prices?
- Can you acquire any cards through trades (this would help greatly) or should the whole thing not cost more than 10$ including trades?
to be edited when my inet works again at normal speed (soon I hope)
ok, I use T'n'T for prices, given that a common costs a quarter per, a budget of 10$ is really thight.
2x Negate (0.5$)
4x Faerie Trickery (1$)
4x Think Twice (1$)
4x Boomerang (1$)
4x Whiplash Trap (1$)
2x Sharding Sphinx (1.18$)
2x Serra Sphinx (1.18$)
It's 9.86$ if you don't buy Islands, if you get commons for under 0.25/card it'll be even less. First thing I'd do if more money is avaible, is to upgrade trap to Wash Out, then the counters.
Goliath Sphinx - Extreme budget, but a little expensive
Sphinx of Jwar Isle - Comes in at about $1 online, but looks to be a nice finisher
Serra Sphinx - Is it big enough?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4557651&postcount=1
TheWarden's Creative Commons Music Pick Project (Retired):
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=336498
I hear ya' re: "budget". This game has gotten awfully expensive since I stopped playing the first time. The duals, holy *bleep*...I bought my playset of underground sea for $20 on ebay, in '99ish...I was pretty angry that they were "that much" at the time.
magiccards.info prices are fine, any pricing that's "low" but either a well-known vendor (ie channelfirebal / troll&toad), or many many vendors are around that price. I know that's kinda' vague, but basically, what's a practical low price from magiccards.info. You could look at starcity too, I guess.
Originally I was thinking of not including trades, b/c this guy doesn't have a "collection", just the deck we made for him, which he paid us (okay, me) for. For the purpose of the challenge, assume no trades I guess. We may end up just giving him a playset of counterspell, as we've all got mult playsets in our collections from back then...it used to be a "penny common".
@ Warden...Goliath Sphinx :eek:. Wow, why is that card not worth more? Mahamoti Djinn used to be the card for these decks and Goliath Sphinx is waay better for 1 more. Flying isn't good enough, it needs shroud now, I assume (power creep)? That's probably going to be the winner...dirt cheap, and huge.
DRum
DRum
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
On the watch / currently testing:
- Argent Sphinx: People say it's the new Rainbow Efreet. For now, I tend to ask myself what three artifacts make it possible to play this. Possibly an option in artifact focused decks, as Casual can use artifact lands.
- Chimeric Mass: I am a sucker for Trinket Mage and this is a Wrath resilant, scalable beatstick that can be recurred and tutored up easily.
- Soliton: Budget Morphling. Ain't it lovely?
- Ratchet Bomb: Should be added where Powder Keg is mentioned, for completeness sake.
- Stoic Rebuttal: Atleast Cancel, at best Counterspell. Same as Sphinx.
- Darksteel Myr: Another 3cmc speedbump.
- Etched Champion: Same question as Sphinx, but in the role of a blocker. Bonus, this only needs two other things.
- Neurok Replica: yet another speedbump, brings some utility at the cost of durability.
- Plated Seastrider: Yet another speedbump.
As you can see I'm quite pleased with the options SoM gives MUC. Strider, Replica & Soliton just make me all warm and fuzzy inside. ^^ Not the most spikiest cards, but cute.
- uniformity isn't what primers are intended for. Just because this isn't 'omg-Timmy' Dragons, doesn't mean that every one wants an 'optimal' classic list.
- to improve one needs to test new options.
- new cards might be easier to get / cheaper.
- new cards might be what is played. Just because a group uses only new frames, doesn't mean there aren't options for them to build MUC.
I'm not seriously gonna put Soliton or Replica in a Spike-ish list, but just for fun, why not?