I'm considering making an undying deck. Cards like Marchesa, the Black Rose and Ion Storm can be great, as can Triskelion, but I find it hard to believe an undying deck can actually be competitive or actually win.
What do you all think? Is it going to come down to Lightning Bolt-like cards and Blaze?
What format do you want to play in? And how do you actually want to win?
I can see two routes. One is aggro-control - having undying creatures makes many boardwipes potentially quite one-sided. The other is combo, the classic Triskelion/Walking Ballista+Mikaeus, the Unhallowed loop.
We play casual games. Any cards are a go, except those with silver borders. Sure, it's possible to make a deck here with an army of undying creatures that just keep coming back and chump block (I'll have Raise Dead for Marchesa to help with returning undying creatures), but can it compete with green agro trample, mass life gain decks, etc.?
can it compete with green agro trample, mass life gain decks, etc.?
If you do something like the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo, then their life total is utterly irrelevant because in Magic, arbitrarily high amounts of damage beat arbitrarily high amounts of life.
Depending on how well you can manage three colours, Ghave, Guru of Spores is hilariously good with the undying mechanic since he can just take the +1/+1 counter off then sacrifice the creature again as many times as you want. You could also get some decent mileage out of something like Meren of Clan Nel Toth because your creatures are going to be dying a lot anyway.
I would like to manage three colors - I'm eyeing blue, red and black (might put a Bolas planeswalker in there), however those are nasty combos. I'll mull it over for sure.
can it compete with green agro trample, mass life gain decks, etc.?
If you do something like the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo, then their life total is utterly irrelevant because in Magic, arbitrarily high amounts of damage beat arbitrarily high amounts of life.
Depending on how well you can manage three colours, Ghave, Guru of Spores is hilariously good with the undying mechanic since he can just take the +1/+1 counter off then sacrifice the creature again as many times as you want. You could also get some decent mileage out of something like Meren of Clan Nel Toth because your creatures are going to be dying a lot anyway.
If your manabase can handle it, Geralf's Messenger can replace Young Wolf and be its own win condition.
Regardless of what you're doing, evoke can be hilarious with undying. For instance, now you get Opportunityat half price! And get a complimentary Phantom Monster for your efforts. (You'll find Aminatou, the Fateshifter also has some potential with undying, but not real combo potential, just synergy.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
There's a couple of options. Flayer of the Hatebound has a number of combos and is seen in some decks that self mill. I'm sure it could be used in a normal capacity too even if it is slow. As mentioned before Mikeaus combos exist. triskelion is the one everyone knows, but there's also Workhorse with a sac outlet for infinite mana, Walking Ballista with a sac outlet or on death trigger, and I'm sure more exist. My best use of undying is in birthing pod decks. Podding young wolf into Strangleroot Geist into Geralf's Messenger feels pretty good.
Basically, Retribution of the Ancients allow you to remove the +1/+1 counter on any number of your creatures to repeat whatever combo you do with undying.
Martyr's Cause can protect yourself, your team mates, your creatures and your team mate's creatures. The oracle text of that card is even stronger than it's printed text...sacrificing one creature will prevent all damage dealt by a Blasphemous Act or Earthquake.
Greater Gargadon offers a sacrifice outlet that cannot be destroyed. It's nice to always have the possibility to sacrifice your creatures whenever you need. In response to a Swords to Plowshares for example.
Skullclamp and sacrifice makes you draw like hell and once you manage to sneak a Flayer of the Hatebound in play, it will start to get oppressive since it can deal a lot of damage.
Cauldron of Souls is another way to continue bringing back your creatures.
EDIT: Whoops! That's not even 60 cards. So in addition to thoughts on the deck itself, what should I add to hit 60?
Thoughts on this deck after reading all this advice? Winnable? I ended up putting green in there. The Dimir House Guard is for tutoring Marchesa, the Black Rose, and Raise Dead is to bring her back.
What do you all think? Is it going to come down to Lightning Bolt-like cards and Blaze?
I can see two routes. One is aggro-control - having undying creatures makes many boardwipes potentially quite one-sided. The other is combo, the classic Triskelion/Walking Ballista+Mikaeus, the Unhallowed loop.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is so pricey, but no denying it would be key for an undying deck.
If you do something like the Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo, then their life total is utterly irrelevant because in Magic, arbitrarily high amounts of damage beat arbitrarily high amounts of life.
Depending on how well you can manage three colours, Ghave, Guru of Spores is hilariously good with the undying mechanic since he can just take the +1/+1 counter off then sacrifice the creature again as many times as you want. You could also get some decent mileage out of something like Meren of Clan Nel Toth because your creatures are going to be dying a lot anyway.
My favorite is Young Wolf, Ashnod's Altar, and Ghave. Now you just need a win condition like Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, or Falkenrath Noble.
If your manabase can handle it, Geralf's Messenger can replace Young Wolf and be its own win condition.
Regardless of what you're doing, evoke can be hilarious with undying. For instance, now you get Opportunity at half price! And get a complimentary Phantom Monster for your efforts. (You'll find Aminatou, the Fateshifter also has some potential with undying, but not real combo potential, just synergy.)
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StaffKing of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
4 Butcher Ghoul
4 Hound of Griselbrand
3 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Greater Gargadon
Artifacts (8)
1 Sol Ring
4 Skullclamp
2 Helm of Possession
1 Cauldron of Souls
4 Retribution of the Ancients
2 Martyr's Cause
2 Dictate of Erebos
Spells (7)
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Crackling Doom
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Utter End
Lands (22)
4 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Orzhov Basilica
2 Boros Garrison
2 Rakdos Carnarium
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Nomad Outpost
Basically, Retribution of the Ancients allow you to remove the +1/+1 counter on any number of your creatures to repeat whatever combo you do with undying.
Martyr's Cause can protect yourself, your team mates, your creatures and your team mate's creatures. The oracle text of that card is even stronger than it's printed text...sacrificing one creature will prevent all damage dealt by a Blasphemous Act or Earthquake.
Greater Gargadon offers a sacrifice outlet that cannot be destroyed. It's nice to always have the possibility to sacrifice your creatures whenever you need. In response to a Swords to Plowshares for example.
Skullclamp and sacrifice makes you draw like hell and once you manage to sneak a Flayer of the Hatebound in play, it will start to get oppressive since it can deal a lot of damage.
Cauldron of Souls is another way to continue bringing back your creatures.
Thoughts on this deck after reading all this advice? Winnable? I ended up putting green in there. The Dimir House Guard is for tutoring Marchesa, the Black Rose, and Raise Dead is to bring her back.
1 Swarm of Bloodflies
4 Butcher Ghoul
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Young Wolf
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Hound of Griselbrand
1 Vorapede
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Marchesa, the Black Rose
1 Consulate Skygate
1 Aid from the Cowl
1 Ion Strom
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Unbridled Growth
Sorcery
1 Bone Splinters
2 Raise Dead
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Instant
1 Altar's Reap
1 Fog
1 Plummet
Artifacts
1 Soul Net
2 Skullclamp
5 Forest
4 Mountain
7 Swamps
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Desert of the Mindful
1 Salt Marsh
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Simic Guildgate