So, since I've tried numerous times to construct some Duel Decklists meant to preview potential upcoming themes only to lose steam each time, I've decided to try reaching out to my fellow MTGPs for help. I've got at least three themes in mind for upcoming block themes based on what Maro has said is on the short list - Pirates vs. Navy (Pirate), Vikings vs. Giants (Norse), and Tombs vs. Raiders (Egypt). If anyone would like to help, which one would you be interested in tackling first? Or are there better options for these themes than what I've come up with? I've included a poll to help decide with a vote. I'll give it three days before updating this topic to focus on whichever theme we decide on.
Once we've settled on the theme we want to tackle, we have to start figuring out some details like each deck's mechanical direction as well as the colors it will play. As a general rule, duel decks try to play just two colors with exceptions for things like monocolor Planeswalkers or tricolor factions. If the theme isn't based on a Planeswalker or 3+ color faction, it's probably a good idea to stick with two colors.
Both decks generally contain one mythic rare card, the face card of the deck. It doesn't always have to be a card that was mythic before; see Knight of the Reliquary (Knights vs. Dragons). Both decks also contain five rare cards. Once I would have said to avoid reprinting rares from previous Duel Decks, but now that Zendikar vs. Eldrazi has seen Butcher of Malakir printed for the second time (the first being in Sorin vs. Tibalt), that door is wide open. Still, it's a good idea to try for "new" reprints when possible. Commons and uncommons tend to be a mishmash, but the rest of the decks are always a roughly even mixture of both.
While not a hard fast rule, generally each deck will contain no more than five nonland cards with more than one copy, never rares and most often commons. There are exceptions, such as the Kiora deck having a full set of Accumulated Knowledge, but such exceptions should be few and far between.
As for the mana base, unless the deck has very specific needs (like Kiora's deck featuring Evolving Wilds for landfall and Temple of the False God for flavor), generally you want some manner of land that fixes for the appropriate colors; Guildgates and KTK lifelands are currently the most popular for this. Many, though not all, Duel Decks also try to work in some cycling lands, most often the Onslaught cycle, especially in monocolor decks. Rare lands are almost never included in the decklists; to my knowledge, only two exceptions exist so far, Rustic Clachan (Elspeth vs. Tezzeret) and Stirring Wildwood (Zendikar vs. Eldrazi). This is most likely to avoid justifying rare dual reprints in every deck, both to avoid driving up the prices (or crashing the prices of the duals in question) and because as useful as they are, lands are not generally very exciting cards to include over other card types.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I like the idea of what you're doing, but is there really a large enough card pool for some of these themes? I really like the idea of raiders vs tombs but I don't know if there's enough cards out there to support these themes to make a (playable) constructed deck. Same could go for vikings. For Navy I'm assuming we could use ships and soldiers? that could possibly work.
My votes on Navy for now, but I may change my mind if I see there's enough to play around with the egyptian theme.
I have thought of at least a few cards for each theme, as well as a general inkling of what I would shoot for mechanically:
Tombs: Something more control oriented with a lot of lifegain, artifacts, and reanimation, possibly with Cleric and/or Zombie tribal as well as possibly some Birds, Cats, and/or Hounds to hint at upcoming races based on Horus, Bast, and Anubis. Most likely WB. Cards considered include Vengeful Pharaoh (possible face card), Curse of Death's Hold, Austere Command, Golden Urn, and Buried Ruin.
Raiders: Something focused on evasive aggro with artifact stealing as well as perhaps some Rogue and/or Wizard tribal. Most likely UB or UR. Cards considered include Daring Thief, Master Thief, and Rogue's Passage.
Pirates: Aggressive with a few Pirates and other "plunder" themed creatures like Warriors and Rogues. Either UB or BR, though leaning UB thanks to all the blue Pirates. Cards to consider include Coastal Piracy, Pirate Ship.
Navy: Soldier tribal. Either WU or RW, blue for the seafaring theme and red for the warfare theme. Cards considered include Captain of the Watch, Captain's Call, and Launch the Fleet.
Vikings: Aggressive with a possible theme of raiding (sensing a pattern here), using lots of Warriors and Berserkers, as well as some Dwarves and Elves. Most likely RG. Cards considered include Deathrender, Obsidian Battle-Axe, Stormblood Berserker.
Giants: Larger creatures themed around ice and fire. Thinking BR for a focused fire giants deck or UR for a mixture of ice and fire giants. Cards considered include Frost Titan (face card if UR).
EDIT 1: The poll will be finalized at 6:30 PM this evening. Still time to get your votes in, folks!
EDIT 2: I didn't know you can set a specific end date and time for polls and I want to display the results, so the poll ends 6:30 PM tomorrow instead. One more day to get your votes in, folks!
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Whelp, looks like Tombs vs. Raiders is the winner! So for the rest of this topic, we design the Tombs vs. Raiders duel deck!
So, let's start by establishing our theme. Tombs vs. Raiders captures the kind of flavor we see in Indiana Jones films, Tomb Raider games (guess what inspired the name?), and those classic "Curse of the Mummy/Pharaoh" stories. So let's list a few concepts that come into play in these kinds of stories:
Mummies - The unbiquitous residents of the tomb. Not always evil, but almost always dangerous. Treasure - The valuables that are buried with the mummies. The raiders are usually looking to steal or recover them from the tomb, whether to display them in a museum, use them for nefarious deeds, save the world, or simply pawn them off for moolah. Curses - In addition to servants both living and undead, pharaohs often employ nasty curses to punish any who dare disturb their sanctity and slumber. Traps - In addition to guardians and curses, tombs are often riddled with traps meant to repel and/or eliminate intruders. Walls - Tombs can be labryinthine, and few obstacles stop a thief better than a wall. Death - It's not a very exciting story if somebody doesn't die during the treasure hunt, right? Besides, those mummies didn't just walk into the tomb and fall asleep in a sarcophagus (well, not most of them anyway).
Treasure Hunters - A good portion of raiders are thieves, archaeologists, and aspiring overlords seeking to procure the treasure from the tombs, whether by hook or by crook. Researchers - Some tomb intruders are simply researchers looking to study ancient writings, though a good number of researchers are also treasure hunters. After all, studying an ancient stone tablet is much easier in the comfort of your warm and well-lit home. Tools - Any treasure hunter worth their salt knows to bring some handy tools with them. Theft - The tomb's residents aren't going to simply give the treasure to the raiders. Getting that loot will require cunning!
So far, I'm thinking the Tombs deck wants to be something defensive that wears the opponent down slowly. It should have the ability to attack but an additional means of grinding the opponent down will help. Reanimation is a must.
The Raiders deck meanwhile wants to emphasize evasion and theft effects. It's not traditional aggro where you're going tall or wide, but each successful connection helps. The Raiders deck also needs answers to the Tombs deck's formidable defenses. Graveyard exile serves both as an answer to the Tombs deck's reanimation and as a flavorful way to represent graverobbing.
Artifacts clearly want to be a big part of both decks; Tombs are usually full of treasure, and that's the whole reason the Raiders are trying to plunder the Tombs in the first place! The Tombs deck wants mana rocks, lifegain, and artifact creatures. The Raiders deck wants Equipment that can help the Raiders sneak in and steal stuff.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
tombs should definitely have a trap subtheme. trapmaker's snare is awesome. not sure what colors it will end up, but most of the traps are fairly appropriate
Sweet theme deck ideas! I wouldn't fret too much about balancing the number of mythics/rares until you have a somewhat concrete list in mind. It might be simpler to start off with the flavor and imagery behind each theme deck, and work out playability afterwards.
ok, i put some more thought in.
i feel this should be an aggro vs control matchup, with the raiders playing the aggro role.
for tombs, i think blue/black seems the most obvious choice (though theres some pretty juicy traps in white) labyrinth minotaur seems pretty great thematically. not a lot of other good minotaurs for control, but that one seems good.
for raiders, red/white comes to mind. trash for treasure is good and flavorful, but may not play well with the deck.
maybe an equipment subtheme?
Pyramids is unfortunately on the reserved list, meaning if this was a professional product (and I'd like to approach it as if it were) they couldn't include Pyramids in the decklist.
Thada Adel, Acquisitor was one of the first cards I'd thought of when trying to tackle this theme alone. The flavor's defeinitely good, though the islandwalk feels a little strange, like White Knight in Knights vs. Dragons. We can put her on the list.
Treasure Trove is a good suggestion. Greed works well too, though I'm not sure into which deck it should fit.
If I may, I'd like to list some cards that I feel would fit well into each respective theme. I'll list them in the form of an incomplete decklist:
I'm pretty certain the Raiders deck wants to be part blue, but which second color should it use? I can see a case for every color except green. Perhaps it would be a good iea to list some cards each respective color could bring to the table:
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
One of the hardest parts of balancing the decks is to make sure both that the Tombs deck's defenses aren't too impassable and that the Raiders' decks creatures aren't too hard to stop. The easiest solution of course is to give each deck answers to the other, but we also want to encourage interacton rather than discourage it, and any answers to the other deck's strengths still need to feel in-flavor. Throwing Dimir Charm into the Raiders deck just cause does a disservice to the decks. That said, Artful Dodge crossed my mind, but we must take care not to give the Raiders deck so many strong evasion options that the Tombs deck's defenses cease to matter.
If Mystifying Maze had been an artifact, I'd be much more willing to consider it for the Tombs deck, but I'm wary of including rare lands in the decklists. If the land really, really works, then maybe.
There's also the question of "preview" cards. Had this duel decks been designed with a specific set in mind, we could easily choose a mythic, a rare, and a couple commons and uncommons, making sure to choose a couple major mechanics from the upcoming set to showcase among them, and insert them into the decklists. But since we don't have an Egyptian set ready to go, we'd have to design the preview cards from scratch, which would be risky as at this point there'd be no guarantee that said preview cards would actually make it into the Egypt set proper. (See why they plan this stuff ahead?) But that's entering Custom Card Creation territory. So at the very least we should set aside three slots in each deck for previews, one getting a preview face card, the other getting a rare, and each getting a common and uncommon.
Grim Discovery should be able to fit in here somewhere, but which deck? Flavorwise it feels a little more Raiders, but that requires Raiders to be part black, which has not yet been decided.
Leonin Bladetrap would be both a nice trap for the Tombs deck and a hint at Leonin appearing in the Egypt setting.
Would Vengeful Pharaoh work as the face card of the Tombs deck, or should the Tombs deck face card be the preview mythic, one of the ghostcouncils, or another card?
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Geth, Lord of the Vault seems like a flavor victory for the tomb face; he's a zombie who fiddles with artifacts, and he's in charge of a vault.
I sat down and scrolled through everything in Gatherer with curiosity-style 'when this connects with a face' effects just to see what else could click into the raider deck right away.
Sort of on-theme in green: Hunter's Insight (i don't think this is a green deck guys)
I would probably opt for red instead of black; overlap's happened in duel decks before, but red seems like it has more tempo tools that would distinguish it from what appears to be the control archtype shaping up in the tomb cards. Plus, then you get to run effects like Hostile Realm and Seismic Stomp/Magmatic Chasm because oh no, the tomb is collapsing!!Subterranean Scout plugs into that flavor/mechanical theme nicely, as well.
e: The abzan-marked cards have some good sand-and-desert themes among them that play into the defender theme. Dazzling Ramparts, Brave the Sands and Disowned Ancestor. Duneblast seems appropriate if a splash is on the table.
e2: I am having a hell of a time trying to get those last two card tags to stop bugging out.
For tombs, how much do we want the old theme of "creatures guarding the tombs"? Because there's lots of assorted zombies, spirits, and so on (Abyssal Specter?)
I think I'd be against Geth in the tombs deck. He's spot on flavor-wise, but I feel like the gameplay of stealing your opponent's stuff would feel too much like Rogues.
And @IncredibleFrown: I think your card tag on Disowned Ancestor might not work because of the period inside the tag.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Hecatomb + Urborg have great synergy and gives the Tombs deck a reasonable way to fight evasive Raiders or create a win condition despite all the defensive spells and walls. It's also hard enough to assemble that it wouldn't make the Tombs deck overpowered.
Booby Trap just seems ridiculously flavorful even if not that consistent. Always funny when it goes off.
Trap Runner isn't exactly a Trap, but it does give you another tool to manage unblockable Raiders. Rathi Trapper also would, especially if you only use sorcery-speed effects to give Raiders unblockable.
Tombstalker seems like a very flavorful win condition. Obzedat would be a sweet face for the deck.
Since so many of the Thieves/Raiders have draw or discard effects, I wonder if it's worth running a Madness subtheme. Maybe a few spells like Circular Logic and Fiery Temper, or creatures like Anger or Squee, Goblin Nabob. They would synergize with the deck, although maybe lack flavour. Another option is to run Delve as a subtheme. Something like Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise sounds very flavorful for an Indiana Jones-type deck and is supported by all the draw-discard effects.
And @IncredibleFrown: I think your card tag on Disowned Ancestor might not work because of the period inside the tag.
It wasn't like that when I first typed it, though, and it's not like that in the text when I try to fix it. I swapped it with the one before it and it sticks around, I take out the punctuation and it just extends to the next word it sees, and Duneblast there is inside card tags too but it's not even trying to link. It's a mess.
I think Sphinxes would complement the Tomb/Raider theme quite well. Sphinxes are an iconic part of ancient Egypt after all, with myths of them granting travelers passage to temples/tombs upon solving a riddle. Although Sphinxes are mostly U and would be off-color with the current decklists, I think they could be an interesting inclusion to accentuate the story. For example, sphinxes like:
Geth, Lord of the Vault seems like a flavor victory for the tomb face; he's a zombie who fiddles with artifacts, and he's in charge of a vault.
I sat down and scrolled through everything in Gatherer with curiosity-style 'when this connects with a face' effects just to see what else could click into the raider deck right away.
Sort of on-theme in green: Hunter's Insight (i don't think this is a green deck guys)
I would probably opt for red instead of black; overlap's happened in duel decks before, but red seems like it has more tempo tools that would distinguish it from what appears to be the control archtype shaping up in the tomb cards. Plus, then you get to run effects like Hostile Realm and Seismic Stomp/Magmatic Chasm because oh no, the tomb is collapsing!!Subterranean Scout plugs into that flavor/mechanical theme nicely, as well.
e: The abzan-marked cards have some good sand-and-desert themes among them that play into the defender theme. Dazzling Ramparts, Brave the Sands and Disowned Ancestor. Duneblast seems appropriate if a splash is on the table.
I once considered making the decks WBG vs. UBR, to allow all five colors a chance to contribute. But they don't usually make a Duel Deck 3+ colors unless multicolor's going to actually matter in the upcoming set (Speed vs Cunning), or unless it's related to a multicolor set (Ajani vs. Nicol Bolas). Granted, one way to distinguish "Egypt Block" Gods from Theros Gods is to make the former tricolor (making them artifacts helps too), but tricolor gods do not a tricolor set make.
If Raiders ends up UR, I like the idea of portraying torches on some of the cards, like Subterranean Scout as well as perhaps Torch Slinger and Blazing Torch (which probably will end up in the deck anyway). The idea of putting Goblins in the Raiders deck makes me think of Tuktuk the Explorer, which has a certain awesome flavor to it. Tuktuk dies to traps or guardians of the tomb, then comes back as a hulking Goblin Golem to help you smash your way in? Okay, a bit weird, but the explorer feel still feels good.
For tombs, how much do we want the old theme of "creatures guarding the tombs"? Because there's lots of assorted zombies, spirits, and so on (Abyssal Specter?)
I think I'd be against Geth in the tombs deck. He's spot on flavor-wise, but I feel like the gameplay of stealing your opponent's stuff would feel too much like Rogues.
Zombies should definitely appear, even if most of them aren't necessarily covered in bandages. Spirits I'm more dubious about; how often do ghosts actually appear in Egyptian tomb raider stories versus mummified corpses? Then again, what I write below about flavor does make me reconsider the option of including cards like Shade of Trokair and Lingering Souls. After all, these duel decks are Tombs vs. Raiders, not Egyptian Tombs vs. Raiders.
Hecatomb + Urborg have great synergy and gives the Tombs deck a reasonable way to fight evasive Raiders or create a win condition despite all the defensive spells and walls. It's also hard enough to assemble that it wouldn't make the Tombs deck overpowered.
Booby Trap just seems ridiculously flavorful even if not that consistent. Always funny when it goes off.
Trap Runner isn't exactly a Trap, but it does give you another tool to manage unblockable Raiders. Rathi Trapper also would, especially if you only use sorcery-speed effects to give Raiders unblockable.
Tombstalker seems like a very flavorful win condition. Obzedat would be a sweet face for the deck.
Hmm...just as Heroes vs. Monsters wasn't exclusively Greek in flavor, neither would Tombs vs. Raiders have to be exclusively Egyptian, which means some of what you suggested might be worth considering. Angel's Tomb certainly fits, and compliments Glint Hawk Idol nicely to boot. I see where you're going with Trap Runner and Rathi Trapper, but I would try to keep the number of regular human creatures in the Tombs deck low. While a tomb might have some living guards, one of the best ways to establish a contrast between Tombs and Raiders would be to show the Tombs deck's creatures mostly being undead or artificial versus the regular, mortal Raiders. That is to say, the Tombs deck's creatures should feel like they "belong" to the tomb, whether by being post-mortem residents or by being created for the purpose of protecting the residents and treasures within.
Since so many of the Thieves/Raiders have draw or discard effects, I wonder if it's worth running a Madness subtheme. Maybe a few spells like Circular Logic and Fiery Temper, or creatures like Anger or Squee, Goblin Nabob. They would synergize with the deck, although maybe lack flavour. Another option is to run Delve as a subtheme. Something like Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise sounds very flavorful for an Indiana Jones-type deck and is supported by all the draw-discard effects.
I like Steal Artifact, it's a good compliment to Master Thief. Delve would certainly fit a UB Raiders deck but the actual Delve cards available feel more suited for Tombs. I would support Flashback over Madness as Flashback is a mechanic I would consider bringing back in an Egypt set. I like the feel of casting magic from the grave, almost as if you were recovering the knowledge from the tomb itself. And Flashback combos wonderfully with Secrets of the Dead, heck SotD was designed for Flashback.
I think Sphinxes would complement the Tomb/Raider theme quite well. Sphinxes are an iconic part of ancient Egypt after all, with myths of them granting travelers passage to temples/tombs upon solving a riddle. Although Sphinxes are mostly U and would be off-color with the current decklists, I think they could be an interesting inclusion to accentuate the story. For example, sphinxes like:
On a more comical note, Haunted Plate Mail could be a sweet throwback to Scooby-Doo.
Actually, I'd consider including a colorless artifact Sphinx in the Tombs deck, though if it was a rare then the Raiders deck would get the Mythic preview. Artifact sphinxes would fit in an Egypt set not only for the likely artifact theme (artifacts could be to the Egypt set what enchantments were to Theros) but also because the Sphinx of Giza would technically be a large artifact. I would imagine the Egypt set would feature some regular organic Sphinxes as well, of course.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Actually I would like to support the idea of Geth as a face card of the deck. I think flavour-wise his ability is a perfect end game for the deck.
I can see how the game play of stealing your opponents stuff is similar to the rogue's deck but a) it's at a different phase of the game (late vs mid), b) as the raiders deck stands currently its doing more looting than actually thievery and c) the flavour of "As you die all your stuff is added to the tomb's treasure trove" is awesome. In fact I think Hedonist's Trove could be listed in the Tomb deck along with Geth for the same reasons.
After that I think you need to decide whether it's important to you to not have overlapping colours between the two decks. I think white or black are the best second colours for the raiders and white or blue are the best second colours for the tombs.
Alternatively to a raiders theme you could go full Zendikar flavour and make it an Allies deck instead. That's mostly an idea for another day though.
While I did consider Hedonist's Trove for Tombs, the fact that it involves exiling from the graveyard and effectively stealing from your opponent puts it into Raiders territory. If the Tombs deck were to do any stealing it should probably be in the form of cards like Endless Whispers or Grave Betrayal where the opponent's creatures join your side upon dying, thereby becoming new residents of the tomb.
That said, Geth, Lord of the Vault is a little more in the middle since necromancy is part of the Tombs deck's suite of weapons. He'd feel more appropriate if he could retrieve from your own graveyard. Right now, I'm liking one of the Ghostcouncils the most as mythic preview cards, them or Vengeful Pharaoh.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
While I did consider Hedonist's Trove for Tombs, the fact that it involves exiling from the graveyard and effectively stealing from your opponent puts it into Raiders territory. If the Tombs deck were to do any stealing it should probably be in the form of cards like Endless Whispers or Grave Betrayal where the opponent's creatures join your side upon dying, thereby becoming new residents of the tomb.
That said, Geth, Lord of the Vault is a little more in the middle since necromancy is part of the Tombs deck's suite of weapons. He'd feel more appropriate if he could retrieve from your own graveyard. Right now, I'm liking one of the Ghostcouncils the most as Tombs' mythic face card, them or Vengeful Pharaoh.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
So far I like the UR combination for Raiders the best. You get a strong Looting/flashback theme and some good tools to give your Raiders evasion.
Disturbed Burial is a utility card that also evokes the feel of Mummies and other undead creatures coming to life. Chimeric Idol or Phyrexian Totem are also iconic stone defenders that come to life. And having lots of artifacts also interacts well with the Raider's artifact-stealing theme and the general flavor of mysterious artifacts buried in the tomb.
Dry Spell is a mediocre card, but kind of reflects one of the hazards of Raiders venturing into the Egyptian desert, and happens to kill many of the weenies in the Raiders deck while not touching the many "hidden" artifact creatures in the deck. Pestilence could also work, both for flavor and ability.
I still think Tombstalker is like the definition of the scary monster you'd expect to unexpectedly run into while searching a tomb, although maybe you can't spare any more rare slots.
EDIT: Re: Sphinxes, there is a white sphinx - Petra Sphinx. Not very powerful but it does have flavour. Otherwise, if the Tombs deck had a few mana sources that could also produce blue mana, it would not be unreasonable to splash a BUW sphinx like Sharuum, the Hegemon (great with the artifact theme), Enigma Sphinx or Magister Sphinx. Although maybe that would be too difficult to do.
UR Raiders has looting//flashback theme, evasion, and stealing (anyone think this is too much, by the way? Seems like a lot for small decks.)
Tombs... well, tons of flavor, not a lot of cohesive mechanical identity. Personally, I'd think that playing in the following spaces would be best, but that's just me:
-Graveyard interactions: Vengeful Pharaoh seems amazing and perfectly in flavor to me. Tombstalker, again, is perfect. We've got Immortal Servitude and Unburial Rites. Why not make it a whole theme? Now, I can see it being difficult to put in all the smaller support cards that would enable some sort of graveyard strategy, especially since I don't think self-mill is really the flavor we're going for (although maybe it is -- anyone test Darkblast and Nightmare Void? Also, Entomb). Still, I personally think that this would be a great way of making the gameplay match up with the flavor.
-Artifacts: Lots of stuff here already, including all the Chimeric Idol lookalikes. I might take out some of the cards in the Raiders deck that reference artifacts, to make it feel more like the Tomb's thing -- maybe all of the artifact stealers except Thad Adel, because she's perfect for the deck and possibly the face card. (Also, as I said, goodness knows we've gotta lotta themes in the Raiders deck. Cutting these might help.) One thing I would add, though, is more things that care about artifacts, as a reward for playing all of them. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of random cards, that happen all to be flavorful and artifacts.
-Curses and Traps: It fits thematically perfectly, but Leonin Bladetrap is seriously so unhelpful at the moment against the Raiders deck. Fits well, though -- all in all, I think this theme should be more minor than the others, so right about where it is.
Endless Whispers seems so incredibly perfect for the Tombs deck. Also, it's kinda weird that the Tombs deck -- which I had the impression of being more "hide behind the traps, walls, and guardian creatures without many actual attackers -- seems to have more creatures than Raiders does, and that's without even counting Chimeric Idol and co.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
They probably also want Goblin Tunneler and maybe a similar card.
Any red creature with Dash would naturally seem like a "raider". Goblin Heelcutter in particular would synergize with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
Goblin Kaboomist thematically would represent someone laying mines to get bust into the tomb and mechanically interacts well with stolen artifacts. Maybe too cute.
Pillage is a good utility card, perfectly on theme, and interacts well against a deck with many artifacts.
Soldevi Excavations has a mechanic that is thematically like raiding/looting (scrying top cards) and has a name that thematically fits as well.
Excavator is a janky old card that has a flavorful name and actually works really well with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
So far I like the UR combination for Raiders the best. You get a strong Looting/flashback theme and some good tools to give your Raiders evasion.
Disturbed Burial is a utility card that also evokes the feel of Mummies and other undead creatures coming to life. Chimeric Idol or Phyrexian Totem are also iconic stone defenders that come to life. And having lots of artifacts also interacts well with the Raider's artifact-stealing theme and the general flavor of mysterious artifacts buried in the tomb.
Dry Spell is a mediocre card, but kind of reflects one of the hazards of Raiders venturing into the Egyptian desert, and happens to kill many of the weenies in the Raiders deck while not touching the many "hidden" artifact creatures in the deck. Pestilence could also work, both for flavor and ability.
I still think Tombstalker is like the definition of the scary monster you'd expect to unexpectedly run into while searching a tomb, although maybe you can't spare any more rare slots.
EDIT: Re: Sphinxes, there is a white sphinx - Petra Sphinx. Not very powerful but it does have flavour. Otherwise, if the Tombs deck had a few mana sources that could also produce blue mana, it would not be unreasonable to splash a BUW sphinx like Sharuum, the Hegemon (great with the artifact theme), Enigma Sphinx or Magister Sphinx. Although maybe that would be too difficult to do.
Currently the Tombs decklist has three de facto rares: Austere Command, Curse of Death's Hold, and Immortal Servitude. Vengeful Pharaoh may or may not be one of the five, depending on whether or not it's the face card of the deck. I'm also looking at Necromancer's Covenant, which feels so perfect for Tombs aside from the fact it exiles cards from graveyards, which is supposed to be more the Raiders' thing if Raiders ends up UB.
I would love to include more Sphinxes in the Tombs decklist, but Magic Sphinxes don't typically have the flavor of protectors so much as mind masters, though I could see Egypt world getting exceptions. Heck, we've see an Angels set (Avacyn Restored) and a Dragons set (Dragons of Tarkir), what better place for a Sphinxes set? At any rate, I feel like WB really works as the Tombs deck colors. Perhaps we can find room for Sphinxes in the Raiders deck? Raiders will need something that can end the game, after all.
UR Raiders has looting//flashback theme, evasion, and stealing (anyone think this is too much, by the way? Seems like a lot for small decks.)
Tombs... well, tons of flavor, not a lot of cohesive mechanical identity. Personally, I'd think that playing in the following spaces would be best, but that's just me:
-Graveyard interactions: Vengeful Pharaoh seems amazing and perfectly in flavor to me. Tombstalker, again, is perfect. We've got Immortal Servitude and Unburial Rites. Why not make it a whole theme? Now, I can see it being difficult to put in all the smaller support cards that would enable some sort of graveyard strategy, especially since I don't think self-mill is really the flavor we're going for (although maybe it is -- anyone test Darkblast and Nightmare Void? Also, Entomb). Still, I personally think that this would be a great way of making the gameplay match up with the flavor.
Indeed, reanimation is one of the Tombs deck's primary themes, the others being artifacts and life manipulation. That said, cards like Ritual of Restoration and Remember the Fallen might fit in here.
I can't believe I neglected Entomb this time. It's perfect for a deck with reanimation and/or retrieval. I love the idea of Entombing your Vengeful Pharaoh. Turn 1 and suddenly you have a major aggro deterrent.
-Artifacts: Lots of stuff here already, including all the Chimeric Idol lookalikes. I might take out some of the cards in the Raiders deck that reference artifacts, to make it feel more like the Tomb's thing -- maybe all of the artifact stealers except Thad Adel, because she's perfect for the deck and possibly the face card. (Also, as I said, goodness knows we've gotta lotta themes in the Raiders deck. Cutting these might help.) One thing I would add, though, is more things that care about artifacts, as a reward for playing all of them. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of random cards, that happen all to be flavorful and artifacts.
Artifact stealing is one of the points of the Raiders deck; the main focus is hitting the opponent and stealing their stuff. Equipment serve as the tools to help your thieves, treasure hunters, and archaeologists get at the Tombs' treasure. Both decks can care about artifacts, just in different ways. Tombs gets most of the creatures and utility while Raiders gets Equipment and a few utility artifacts like Avarice Totem.
-Curses and Traps: It fits thematically perfectly, but Leonin Bladetrap is seriously so unhelpful at the moment against the Raiders deck. Fits well, though -- all in all, I think this theme should be more minor than the others, so right about where it is.
Actually, the Bladetrap can hit a good portion of the Raiders. There just aren't that many Traps or Curses that fit well into the decklist; I would consider Curse of Shallow Graves and possibly Curse of the Forsaken, but those have been supplement only and I'm not sure supplement-only cards are allowed in Duel Decks.
Endless Whispers seems so incredibly perfect for the Tombs deck. Also, it's kinda weird that the Tombs deck -- which I had the impression of being more "hide behind the traps, walls, and guardian creatures without many actual attackers -- seems to have more creatures than Raiders does, and that's without even counting Chimeric Idol and co.
They probably also want Goblin Tunneler and maybe a similar card.
Any red creature with Dash would naturally seem like a "raider". Goblin Heelcutter in particular would synergize with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
Goblin Kaboomist thematically would represent someone laying mines to get bust into the tomb and mechanically interacts well with stolen artifacts. Maybe too cute.
Pillage is a good utility card, perfectly on theme, and interacts well against a deck with many artifacts.
Soldevi Excavations has a mechanic that is thematically like raiding/looting (scrying top cards) and has a name that thematically fits as well.
Excavator is a janky old card that has a flavorful name and actually works really well with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
While the aggro would undoubtedly help, KI wonder if the flavor feels right. I guess the Goblin cuts the heels of the zombified guardians? Which reminds me, Putrid Warrior should be in the Tombs list.
Pillage is an interesting choice, though the anti-regenerate clause feels a bit weird.
I'm afraid Soldevi Excavations is on the Reserve List.
Juast because a card is flavorful doesn't mean it's right for the deck; see Hunted Dragon, which was purposefully left out of Knights vs. Dragons because it had bad gameplay.
I've added Entomb. I wonder if they would seriously consider putting such a pricy card in a precon product, though?
I've removed Cyclopean Mummy. As much as I'd love to have an actual mummy in the deck, it just doesn't play well with the reanimator theme. At least we still have Mournful Zombie.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Thada Adel needs a better target to look for. Even if there's only one, in these lists usually she just settles for a dorky Golden Urn, or taking a Bladed Sentinel just to get it out of the way.
The only thing Daring Thief is good for in this pool is disarming Benevolent Ancestor. I'm not a fan. Speaking of...
Benevolent Ancestor is hilariously effective for the home team. If they both reach the board, the raiders have to do a lot of work to get past them. Between Teetering Peaks, Jhessian Thief/Incursion Specialist, and Stomp/Teleportal, it's not undoable though.
I do not like Souls of the Faultless in this deck. It's rare for the raiders to attack unsafely. Same goes for Wall of Souls. I sorta figured this would be the case, but I was short cards, so they got to stay anyway. Those would be the first I'd replace with something else.
The uncommon:common ratio in the tomb deck is too high.
Most of the games I played seemed pretty close, with both decks getting a chance to do stuff before it swung one way or another for the last time. The tomb deck is all about long grindy games, though, and if we're pointing these decks at hypothetical rookies it could maybe stand to have another big bomb to prevent going to turn 30 on a regular basis.
Once we've settled on the theme we want to tackle, we have to start figuring out some details like each deck's mechanical direction as well as the colors it will play. As a general rule, duel decks try to play just two colors with exceptions for things like monocolor Planeswalkers or tricolor factions. If the theme isn't based on a Planeswalker or 3+ color faction, it's probably a good idea to stick with two colors.
Both decks generally contain one mythic rare card, the face card of the deck. It doesn't always have to be a card that was mythic before; see Knight of the Reliquary (Knights vs. Dragons). Both decks also contain five rare cards. Once I would have said to avoid reprinting rares from previous Duel Decks, but now that Zendikar vs. Eldrazi has seen Butcher of Malakir printed for the second time (the first being in Sorin vs. Tibalt), that door is wide open. Still, it's a good idea to try for "new" reprints when possible. Commons and uncommons tend to be a mishmash, but the rest of the decks are always a roughly even mixture of both.
While not a hard fast rule, generally each deck will contain no more than five nonland cards with more than one copy, never rares and most often commons. There are exceptions, such as the Kiora deck having a full set of Accumulated Knowledge, but such exceptions should be few and far between.
As for the mana base, unless the deck has very specific needs (like Kiora's deck featuring Evolving Wilds for landfall and Temple of the False God for flavor), generally you want some manner of land that fixes for the appropriate colors; Guildgates and KTK lifelands are currently the most popular for this. Many, though not all, Duel Decks also try to work in some cycling lands, most often the Onslaught cycle, especially in monocolor decks. Rare lands are almost never included in the decklists; to my knowledge, only two exceptions exist so far, Rustic Clachan (Elspeth vs. Tezzeret) and Stirring Wildwood (Zendikar vs. Eldrazi). This is most likely to avoid justifying rare dual reprints in every deck, both to avoid driving up the prices (or crashing the prices of the duals in question) and because as useful as they are, lands are not generally very exciting cards to include over other card types.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
My votes on Navy for now, but I may change my mind if I see there's enough to play around with the egyptian theme.
Tombs: Something more control oriented with a lot of lifegain, artifacts, and reanimation, possibly with Cleric and/or Zombie tribal as well as possibly some Birds, Cats, and/or Hounds to hint at upcoming races based on Horus, Bast, and Anubis. Most likely WB. Cards considered include Vengeful Pharaoh (possible face card), Curse of Death's Hold, Austere Command, Golden Urn, and Buried Ruin.
Raiders: Something focused on evasive aggro with artifact stealing as well as perhaps some Rogue and/or Wizard tribal. Most likely UB or UR. Cards considered include Daring Thief, Master Thief, and Rogue's Passage.
Pirates: Aggressive with a few Pirates and other "plunder" themed creatures like Warriors and Rogues. Either UB or BR, though leaning UB thanks to all the blue Pirates. Cards to consider include Coastal Piracy, Pirate Ship.
Navy: Soldier tribal. Either WU or RW, blue for the seafaring theme and red for the warfare theme. Cards considered include Captain of the Watch, Captain's Call, and Launch the Fleet.
Vikings: Aggressive with a possible theme of raiding (sensing a pattern here), using lots of Warriors and Berserkers, as well as some Dwarves and Elves. Most likely RG. Cards considered include Deathrender, Obsidian Battle-Axe, Stormblood Berserker.
Giants: Larger creatures themed around ice and fire. Thinking BR for a focused fire giants deck or UR for a mixture of ice and fire giants. Cards considered include Frost Titan (face card if UR).
EDIT 1: The poll will be finalized at 6:30 PM this evening. Still time to get your votes in, folks!
EDIT 2: I didn't know you can set a specific end date and time for polls and I want to display the results, so the poll ends 6:30 PM tomorrow instead. One more day to get your votes in, folks!
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
So, let's start by establishing our theme. Tombs vs. Raiders captures the kind of flavor we see in Indiana Jones films, Tomb Raider games (guess what inspired the name?), and those classic "Curse of the Mummy/Pharaoh" stories. So let's list a few concepts that come into play in these kinds of stories:
Mummies - The unbiquitous residents of the tomb. Not always evil, but almost always dangerous.
Treasure - The valuables that are buried with the mummies. The raiders are usually looking to steal or recover them from the tomb, whether to display them in a museum, use them for nefarious deeds, save the world, or simply pawn them off for moolah.
Curses - In addition to servants both living and undead, pharaohs often employ nasty curses to punish any who dare disturb their sanctity and slumber.
Traps - In addition to guardians and curses, tombs are often riddled with traps meant to repel and/or eliminate intruders.
Walls - Tombs can be labryinthine, and few obstacles stop a thief better than a wall.
Death - It's not a very exciting story if somebody doesn't die during the treasure hunt, right? Besides, those mummies didn't just walk into the tomb and fall asleep in a sarcophagus (well, not most of them anyway).
Treasure Hunters - A good portion of raiders are thieves, archaeologists, and aspiring overlords seeking to procure the treasure from the tombs, whether by hook or by crook.
Researchers - Some tomb intruders are simply researchers looking to study ancient writings, though a good number of researchers are also treasure hunters. After all, studying an ancient stone tablet is much easier in the comfort of your warm and well-lit home.
Tools - Any treasure hunter worth their salt knows to bring some handy tools with them.
Theft - The tomb's residents aren't going to simply give the treasure to the raiders. Getting that loot will require cunning!
So far, I'm thinking the Tombs deck wants to be something defensive that wears the opponent down slowly. It should have the ability to attack but an additional means of grinding the opponent down will help. Reanimation is a must.
The Raiders deck meanwhile wants to emphasize evasion and theft effects. It's not traditional aggro where you're going tall or wide, but each successful connection helps. The Raiders deck also needs answers to the Tombs deck's formidable defenses. Graveyard exile serves both as an answer to the Tombs deck's reanimation and as a flavorful way to represent graverobbing.
Artifacts clearly want to be a big part of both decks; Tombs are usually full of treasure, and that's the whole reason the Raiders are trying to plunder the Tombs in the first place! The Tombs deck wants mana rocks, lifegain, and artifact creatures. The Raiders deck wants Equipment that can help the Raiders sneak in and steal stuff.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
trapmaker's snare is awesome. not sure what colors it will end up, but most of the traps are fairly appropriate
Here's some ideas:
i feel this should be an aggro vs control matchup, with the raiders playing the aggro role.
for tombs, i think blue/black seems the most obvious choice (though theres some pretty juicy traps in white)
labyrinth minotaur seems pretty great thematically. not a lot of other good minotaurs for control, but that one seems good.
for raiders, red/white comes to mind.
trash for treasure is good and flavorful, but may not play well with the deck.
maybe an equipment subtheme?
Thada Adel, Acquisitor was one of the first cards I'd thought of when trying to tackle this theme alone. The flavor's defeinitely good, though the islandwalk feels a little strange, like White Knight in Knights vs. Dragons. We can put her on the list.
Treasure Trove is a good suggestion. Greed works well too, though I'm not sure into which deck it should fit.
If I may, I'd like to list some cards that I feel would fit well into each respective theme. I'll list them in the form of an incomplete decklist:
1 Cyclopean Mummy
1 Custodian of the Trove
1 Mournful Zombie
1 Bladed Sentinel
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Gold-Forged Sentinel
1 Guardian Idol
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Silkwrap
1 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Curse of Thirst
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Austere Command
1 Immortal Servitude
I was thinking the Tombs deck could be WB, based on the flavor of a sacred burial site.
1 Reckless Scholar
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Master Thief
1 Treasure Trove
I'm pretty certain the Raiders deck wants to be part blue, but which second color should it use? I can see a case for every color except green. Perhaps it would be a good iea to list some cards each respective color could bring to the table:
White: Quest for the Holy Relic, Relic Seeker, Salvage Scout
Black: Cremate, Hedonist's Trove
Red: Goblin Tunneler, Metallic Mastery, Trash for Treasure
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
If Mystifying Maze had been an artifact, I'd be much more willing to consider it for the Tombs deck, but I'm wary of including rare lands in the decklists. If the land really, really works, then maybe.
There's also the question of "preview" cards. Had this duel decks been designed with a specific set in mind, we could easily choose a mythic, a rare, and a couple commons and uncommons, making sure to choose a couple major mechanics from the upcoming set to showcase among them, and insert them into the decklists. But since we don't have an Egyptian set ready to go, we'd have to design the preview cards from scratch, which would be risky as at this point there'd be no guarantee that said preview cards would actually make it into the Egypt set proper. (See why they plan this stuff ahead?) But that's entering Custom Card Creation territory. So at the very least we should set aside three slots in each deck for previews, one getting a preview face card, the other getting a rare, and each getting a common and uncommon.
Grim Discovery should be able to fit in here somewhere, but which deck? Flavorwise it feels a little more Raiders, but that requires Raiders to be part black, which has not yet been decided.
Leonin Bladetrap would be both a nice trap for the Tombs deck and a hint at Leonin appearing in the Egypt setting.
Would Vengeful Pharaoh work as the face card of the Tombs deck, or should the Tombs deck face card be the preview mythic, one of the ghost councils, or another card?
Creatures
1 Wall of Omens
1 Cyclopean Mummy
1 Custodian of the Trove
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Mournful Zombie
1 Bladed Sentinel
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Gold-Forged Sentinel
1 Golden Urn
1 Glint Hawk Idol
1 Guardian Idol
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Pit Trap
1 Leonin Bladetrap
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Silkwrap
1 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Curse of Thirst
1 Curse of Death's Hold
Instants
1 Mortify
Sorceries
1 Unburial Rites
1 Austere Command
1 Immortal Servitude
2 Scoured Barrens
Creatures
1 Daring Thief
1 Jhessian Thief
1 Reckless Scholar
1 Stealer of Secrets
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Master Thief
1 Avarice Totem
1 Trusty Machete
1 Rogue's Gloves
Enchantments
1 Quest for Ancient Secrets
1 Tricks of the Trade
1 Treasure Trove
2 Artful Dodge
1 Treasure Hunt
Land
1 Rogue's Passage
NOTE: These decklists do not represent finalized selections, they're simply a means of compiling together some cards for consideration.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I sat down and scrolled through everything in Gatherer with curiosity-style 'when this connects with a face' effects just to see what else could click into the raider deck right away.
On-theme in red: Academy Raider, Akki Underminer, Goblin Glory Chaser
Flavor stretch but potentially useful in red: Dragon Mage, Izzet Keyrune
On-theme in white: Consul's Lieutenant, Relic Seeker
On-theme in black: Larceny, Raiders' Spoils (Name's funny, you have to put up with Wayne Reynolds art though), Shadowmage Infiltrator, Mask of Riddles
Useful stretch in black: Graveblade Marauder, Oona's Blackguard, Skullsnatcher
Sort of on-theme in green: Hunter's Insight (i don't think this is a green deck guys)
I would probably opt for red instead of black; overlap's happened in duel decks before, but red seems like it has more tempo tools that would distinguish it from what appears to be the control archtype shaping up in the tomb cards. Plus, then you get to run effects like Hostile Realm and Seismic Stomp/Magmatic Chasm because oh no, the tomb is collapsing!! Subterranean Scout plugs into that flavor/mechanical theme nicely, as well.
e: The abzan-marked cards have some good sand-and-desert themes among them that play into the defender theme. Dazzling Ramparts, Brave the Sands and Disowned Ancestor. Duneblast seems appropriate if a splash is on the table.
e2: I am having a hell of a time trying to get those last two card tags to stop bugging out.
I think I'd be against Geth in the tombs deck. He's spot on flavor-wise, but I feel like the gameplay of stealing your opponent's stuff would feel too much like Rogues.
Dancing Scimitar? Oblivion Ring?
Also, Armageddon Clock and Booby Trap. And maybe for Rogues Breaking // Entering, although it's outside their colors.
And @IncredibleFrown: I think your card tag on Disowned Ancestor might not work because of the period inside the tag.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Hecatomb + Urborg have great synergy and gives the Tombs deck a reasonable way to fight evasive Raiders or create a win condition despite all the defensive spells and walls. It's also hard enough to assemble that it wouldn't make the Tombs deck overpowered.
Booby Trap just seems ridiculously flavorful even if not that consistent. Always funny when it goes off.
Trap Runner isn't exactly a Trap, but it does give you another tool to manage unblockable Raiders. Rathi Trapper also would, especially if you only use sorcery-speed effects to give Raiders unblockable.
Tombstalker seems like a very flavorful win condition. Obzedat would be a sweet face for the deck.
EDIT: For the Raiders...
Since so many of the Thieves/Raiders have draw or discard effects, I wonder if it's worth running a Madness subtheme. Maybe a few spells like Circular Logic and Fiery Temper, or creatures like Anger or Squee, Goblin Nabob. They would synergize with the deck, although maybe lack flavour. Another option is to run Delve as a subtheme. Something like Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise sounds very flavorful for an Indiana Jones-type deck and is supported by all the draw-discard effects.
It wasn't like that when I first typed it, though, and it's not like that in the text when I try to fix it. I swapped it with the one before it and it sticks around, I take out the punctuation and it just extends to the next word it sees, and Duneblast there is inside card tags too but it's not even trying to link. It's a mess.
On a more comical note, Haunted Plate Mail could be a sweet throwback to Scooby-Doo.
I once considered making the decks WBG vs. UBR, to allow all five colors a chance to contribute. But they don't usually make a Duel Deck 3+ colors unless multicolor's going to actually matter in the upcoming set (Speed vs Cunning), or unless it's related to a multicolor set (Ajani vs. Nicol Bolas). Granted, one way to distinguish "Egypt Block" Gods from Theros Gods is to make the former tricolor (making them artifacts helps too), but tricolor gods do not a tricolor set make.
If Raiders ends up UR, I like the idea of portraying torches on some of the cards, like Subterranean Scout as well as perhaps Torch Slinger and Blazing Torch (which probably will end up in the deck anyway). The idea of putting Goblins in the Raiders deck makes me think of Tuktuk the Explorer, which has a certain awesome flavor to it. Tuktuk dies to traps or guardians of the tomb, then comes back as a hulking Goblin Golem to help you smash your way in? Okay, a bit weird, but the explorer feel still feels good.
Zombies should definitely appear, even if most of them aren't necessarily covered in bandages. Spirits I'm more dubious about; how often do ghosts actually appear in Egyptian tomb raider stories versus mummified corpses? Then again, what I write below about flavor does make me reconsider the option of including cards like Shade of Trokair and Lingering Souls. After all, these duel decks are Tombs vs. Raiders, not Egyptian Tombs vs. Raiders.
Hmm...just as Heroes vs. Monsters wasn't exclusively Greek in flavor, neither would Tombs vs. Raiders have to be exclusively Egyptian, which means some of what you suggested might be worth considering. Angel's Tomb certainly fits, and compliments Glint Hawk Idol nicely to boot. I see where you're going with Trap Runner and Rathi Trapper, but I would try to keep the number of regular human creatures in the Tombs deck low. While a tomb might have some living guards, one of the best ways to establish a contrast between Tombs and Raiders would be to show the Tombs deck's creatures mostly being undead or artificial versus the regular, mortal Raiders. That is to say, the Tombs deck's creatures should feel like they "belong" to the tomb, whether by being post-mortem residents or by being created for the purpose of protecting the residents and treasures within.
I like Steal Artifact, it's a good compliment to Master Thief. Delve would certainly fit a UB Raiders deck but the actual Delve cards available feel more suited for Tombs. I would support Flashback over Madness as Flashback is a mechanic I would consider bringing back in an Egypt set. I like the feel of casting magic from the grave, almost as if you were recovering the knowledge from the tomb itself. And Flashback combos wonderfully with Secrets of the Dead, heck SotD was designed for Flashback.
Actually, I'd consider including a colorless artifact Sphinx in the Tombs deck, though if it was a rare then the Raiders deck would get the Mythic preview. Artifact sphinxes would fit in an Egypt set not only for the likely artifact theme (artifacts could be to the Egypt set what enchantments were to Theros) but also because the Sphinx of Giza would technically be a large artifact. I would imagine the Egypt set would feature some regular organic Sphinxes as well, of course.
Creatures
1 Leonin Elder
1 Wall of Omens
1 Cyclopean Mummy
1 Custodian of the Trove
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Mournful Zombie
1 Bladed Sentinel
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Gold-Forged Sentinel
1 Golden Urn
1 Glint Hawk Idol
1 Guardian Idol
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Pit Trap
1 Angel's Tomb
1 Leonin Bladetrap
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
Enchantments
1 Brave the Sands
1 Silkwrap
1 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Brink of Disaster
1 Curse of Thirst
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Mortify
Sorceries
1 Unburial Rites
1 Austere Command
1 Immortal Servitude
Land
2 Scoured Barrens
Creatures
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Riddlesmith
1 Daring Thief
1 Jhessian Thief
1 Reckless Scholar
1 Stealer of Secrets
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Archaeomancer
1 Master Thief
1 Avarice Totem
1 Trusty Machete
1 Rogue's Gloves
Enchantments
1 Quest for Ancient Secrets
1 Tricks of the Trade
1 Steal Artifact
1 Treasure Trove
1 Learn from the Past
1 Thieves' Fortune
Sorceries
2 Artful Dodge
1 Treasure Hunt
Land
1 Rogue's Passage
Updating the considerations for each prospective Raiders color pair:
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I can see how the game play of stealing your opponents stuff is similar to the rogue's deck but a) it's at a different phase of the game (late vs mid), b) as the raiders deck stands currently its doing more looting than actually thievery and c) the flavour of "As you die all your stuff is added to the tomb's treasure trove" is awesome. In fact I think Hedonist's Trove could be listed in the Tomb deck along with Geth for the same reasons.
After that I think you need to decide whether it's important to you to not have overlapping colours between the two decks. I think white or black are the best second colours for the raiders and white or blue are the best second colours for the tombs.
Alternatively to a raiders theme you could go full Zendikar flavour and make it an Allies deck instead. That's mostly an idea for another day though.
That said, Geth, Lord of the Vault is a little more in the middle since necromancy is part of the Tombs deck's suite of weapons. He'd feel more appropriate if he could retrieve from your own graveyard. Right now, I'm liking one of the Ghost councils the most as mythic preview cards, them or Vengeful Pharaoh.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
That said, Geth, Lord of the Vault is a little more in the middle since necromancy is part of the Tombs deck's suite of weapons. He'd feel more appropriate if he could retrieve from your own graveyard. Right now, I'm liking one of the Ghost councils the most as Tombs' mythic face card, them or Vengeful Pharaoh.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Disturbed Burial is a utility card that also evokes the feel of Mummies and other undead creatures coming to life. Chimeric Idol or Phyrexian Totem are also iconic stone defenders that come to life. And having lots of artifacts also interacts well with the Raider's artifact-stealing theme and the general flavor of mysterious artifacts buried in the tomb.
Dry Spell is a mediocre card, but kind of reflects one of the hazards of Raiders venturing into the Egyptian desert, and happens to kill many of the weenies in the Raiders deck while not touching the many "hidden" artifact creatures in the deck. Pestilence could also work, both for flavor and ability.
I still think Tombstalker is like the definition of the scary monster you'd expect to unexpectedly run into while searching a tomb, although maybe you can't spare any more rare slots.
EDIT: Re: Sphinxes, there is a white sphinx - Petra Sphinx. Not very powerful but it does have flavour. Otherwise, if the Tombs deck had a few mana sources that could also produce blue mana, it would not be unreasonable to splash a BUW sphinx like Sharuum, the Hegemon (great with the artifact theme), Enigma Sphinx or Magister Sphinx. Although maybe that would be too difficult to do.
Too bad you can't run Library of Alexandria. But you could run Desert.
UR Raiders has looting//flashback theme, evasion, and stealing (anyone think this is too much, by the way? Seems like a lot for small decks.)
Tombs... well, tons of flavor, not a lot of cohesive mechanical identity. Personally, I'd think that playing in the following spaces would be best, but that's just me:
-Graveyard interactions: Vengeful Pharaoh seems amazing and perfectly in flavor to me. Tombstalker, again, is perfect. We've got Immortal Servitude and Unburial Rites. Why not make it a whole theme? Now, I can see it being difficult to put in all the smaller support cards that would enable some sort of graveyard strategy, especially since I don't think self-mill is really the flavor we're going for (although maybe it is -- anyone test Darkblast and Nightmare Void? Also, Entomb). Still, I personally think that this would be a great way of making the gameplay match up with the flavor.
-Artifacts: Lots of stuff here already, including all the Chimeric Idol lookalikes. I might take out some of the cards in the Raiders deck that reference artifacts, to make it feel more like the Tomb's thing -- maybe all of the artifact stealers except Thad Adel, because she's perfect for the deck and possibly the face card. (Also, as I said, goodness knows we've gotta lotta themes in the Raiders deck. Cutting these might help.) One thing I would add, though, is more things that care about artifacts, as a reward for playing all of them. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of random cards, that happen all to be flavorful and artifacts.
-Curses and Traps: It fits thematically perfectly, but Leonin Bladetrap is seriously so unhelpful at the moment against the Raiders deck. Fits well, though -- all in all, I think this theme should be more minor than the others, so right about where it is.
Endless Whispers seems so incredibly perfect for the Tombs deck. Also, it's kinda weird that the Tombs deck -- which I had the impression of being more "hide behind the traps, walls, and guardian creatures without many actual attackers -- seems to have more creatures than Raiders does, and that's without even counting Chimeric Idol and co.
EDIT: GUYS! WE FORGOT PLATINUM ANGEL!
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
They probably also want Goblin Tunneler and maybe a similar card.
Any red creature with Dash would naturally seem like a "raider". Goblin Heelcutter in particular would synergize with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
Goblin Kaboomist thematically would represent someone laying mines to get bust into the tomb and mechanically interacts well with stolen artifacts. Maybe too cute.
Pillage is a good utility card, perfectly on theme, and interacts well against a deck with many artifacts.
Soldevi Excavations has a mechanic that is thematically like raiding/looting (scrying top cards) and has a name that thematically fits as well.
Excavator is a janky old card that has a flavorful name and actually works really well with the Scroll Thief-type creatures.
Currently the Tombs decklist has three de facto rares: Austere Command, Curse of Death's Hold, and Immortal Servitude. Vengeful Pharaoh may or may not be one of the five, depending on whether or not it's the face card of the deck. I'm also looking at Necromancer's Covenant, which feels so perfect for Tombs aside from the fact it exiles cards from graveyards, which is supposed to be more the Raiders' thing if Raiders ends up UB.
I would love to include more Sphinxes in the Tombs decklist, but Magic Sphinxes don't typically have the flavor of protectors so much as mind masters, though I could see Egypt world getting exceptions. Heck, we've see an Angels set (Avacyn Restored) and a Dragons set (Dragons of Tarkir), what better place for a Sphinxes set? At any rate, I feel like WB really works as the Tombs deck colors. Perhaps we can find room for Sphinxes in the Raiders deck? Raiders will need something that can end the game, after all.
Indeed, reanimation is one of the Tombs deck's primary themes, the others being artifacts and life manipulation. That said, cards like Ritual of Restoration and Remember the Fallen might fit in here.
I can't believe I neglected Entomb this time. It's perfect for a deck with reanimation and/or retrieval. I love the idea of Entombing your Vengeful Pharaoh. Turn 1 and suddenly you have a major aggro deterrent.
Artifact stealing is one of the points of the Raiders deck; the main focus is hitting the opponent and stealing their stuff. Equipment serve as the tools to help your thieves, treasure hunters, and archaeologists get at the Tombs' treasure. Both decks can care about artifacts, just in different ways. Tombs gets most of the creatures and utility while Raiders gets Equipment and a few utility artifacts like Avarice Totem.
Actually, the Bladetrap can hit a good portion of the Raiders. There just aren't that many Traps or Curses that fit well into the decklist; I would consider Curse of Shallow Graves and possibly Curse of the Forsaken, but those have been supplement only and I'm not sure supplement-only cards are allowed in Duel Decks.
The one problem with Endless Whispers is that if your creatures die, the opponent gets them, which creates weird flavor.
While the aggro would undoubtedly help, KI wonder if the flavor feels right. I guess the Goblin cuts the heels of the zombified guardians? Which reminds me, Putrid Warrior should be in the Tombs list.
Pillage is an interesting choice, though the anti-regenerate clause feels a bit weird.
I'm afraid Soldevi Excavations is on the Reserve List.
Juast because a card is flavorful doesn't mean it's right for the deck; see Hunted Dragon, which was purposefully left out of Knights vs. Dragons because it had bad gameplay.
I've added Entomb. I wonder if they would seriously consider putting such a pricy card in a precon product, though?
I've removed Cyclopean Mummy. As much as I'd love to have an actual mummy in the deck, it just doesn't play well with the reanimator theme. At least we still have Mournful Zombie.
1 Wall of Omens
2 Putrid Warrior
1 Custodian of the Trove
1 Mournful Zombie
1 Souls of the Faultless
1 Bladed Sentinel
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Vengeful Pharaoh (Face Card, Alternate Art)
1 Gold-Forged Sentinel
Artifacts
1 Golden Urn
1 Glint Hawk Idol
1 Guardian Idol
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Pit Trap
1 Angel's Tomb
1 Leonin Bladetrap
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Artificer's Hex
1 Silkwrap
1 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Brink of Disaster
1 Curse of Thirst
1 Curse of Death's Hold (Rare)
Instants
1 Entomb (Rare)
1 Mortify
Sorceries
1 Reanimate
1 Ritual of Restoration
1 Unburial Rites
1 Austere Command (Rare)
1 Immortal Servitude (Rare)
2 Scoured Barrens
10 Plains
10 Swamp
3 Preview Cards
Popular opinion seems to be leaning towards Raiders being UR. If possible, perhaps we should have another poll about it?
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Riddlesmith
1 Daring Thief (Rare)
1 Jhessian Thief
1 Reckless Scholar
1 Stealer of Secrets
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor (Rare)
1 Archaeomancer
1 Master Thief
1 Avarice Totem
1 Trusty Machete
1 Rogue's Gloves
Enchantments
1 Quest for Ancient Secrets
1 Tricks of the Trade
1 Steal Artifact
1 Treasure Trove
1 Learn from the Past
1 Thieves' Fortune
Sorceries
2 Artful Dodge
1 Treasure Hunt
Land
1 Rogue's Passage
10 Island
3 Preview Cards
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
2 Benevolent Ancestor
2 Bladed Sentinel
1 Custodian of the Trove
1 Dazzling Ramparts
1 Disowned Ancestor
1 Mournful Zombie
1 Souls of the Faultless
1 Tombstalker
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Wall of Distortion
1 Wall of Omens
1 Wall of Souls
1 Glint Hawk Idol
2 Golden Urn
1 Guardian Idol
1 Leonin Bladetrap
1 Orzhov Keyrune
1 Pit Trap
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Brave the Sands
1 Brink of Disaster
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Pitfall Trap
1 Austere Command
1 Disturbed Burial
2 Ritual of Restoration
1 Kabira Crossroads
2 Scoured Barrens
1 Spawning Pool
1 Leechridden Swamp
8 Plains
11 Swamp
1 Akki Underminer
2 Archaeomancer
1 Borderland Marauder
1 Daring Thief
1 Goblin Shortcutter
1 Goblin Tunneler
1 Incursion Specialist
2 Jhessian Thief
1 Master Thief
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Reckless Scholar
1 Rummaging Goblin
1 Scroll Thief
2 Sigiled Skink
2 Stealer of Secrets
2 Subterranean Scout
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Torch Slinger
1 Rogue's Gloves
1 Hearth Charm
1 Thieves' Fortune
1 Artful Dodge
2 Distortion Strike
1 Reckless Abandon
1 Seismic Stomp
1 Teleportal
1 Treasure Hunt
1 Smoldering Spires
2 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Teetering Peaks
12 Island
8 Mountain
Couple of thoughts: