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Don't laugh
Ok this is my real first time, building a deck on a budget (other attempts at budget resulted in decks that costs 100-200 at minimum or real jank aggro only decks that doesn't accomplish anything).
So here's my current objectives:
To build a deck on about 20-50 bucks
While maintaining deck functionality for MP and SP.
Must be Legacy Legal.
Ideally, each card should not cost more than a dollar.
Must not be Pure Aggro (which is common of many random decks, aggro as a wincon is ok).
Rewarding playskill is great.
Ideally, not comboish, synergy is fine (I'm a combo player, but I wish to show I can play other archtypes than combo-tempo and pure combo)
A couple of things before we begin:
Do not compare this to Survival (survival of the fittest engine), as it is without doubt better, but in no way budget.
My meta is are full of random decks (this playgroup is a new one, less competitive than the one I frequent (Dark Hex, Jund, Landstill, etc) and more fun)
Another reason why I'm posting here is because, you folks have tried tons of cards (vs me screening card set lists) and might also think of tech that I missed out
Of course, I'll write a short primer on how this deck works.
Introduction
This grave-based control deck (a much fresh take on MBC) was derived from The Nightmare Effect by Poppeleseed + Pauper TE Control. This deck aims to generate card advantage via Krovikan Horror + Tortured Existence in conjunction with the many synergies present.
Unlike it's prior incantations (this list doesn't resemble any of the older lists anymore), this deck is built with the logic of having each card better on it's own (Thanks Pinguster), similar to Bant Survival decks.
Grave Existence is a fun deck to pilot. It does take some thinking to work, as it relies heavily on graveyard order and can be abit of mindboggling to run at times, but it'll pay off. If you’re looking for something that requires play skill, is easy to learn but a pain to master, this is the deck for you.
Card Choices
Tortured Existence
The core card of the deck. In conjunction with Krovikan Horror, the card advantage generated plus the many plays from TE itself from this 1 cmc enchantment becomes ridiculous.
Krovikan Horror
I’d hate to say that this is the card that makes the CA engine work, but it’s true. His activated ability is also a vital part of the deck, as it is another enabler for TE. Because no other creature has an ability similar enough to this, Krovikan Horror is very difficult to replace. Because Krovikan Horror relies so heavily on graveyard order, Tortured Existence makes it significantly better. NOTE: Krovikan Horror’s triggered ability checks at the end of *each* turn. This allows for tricks i.e. with Faerie Macabre.
Ghost Quarter
Initially Wasteland, but casual meta have a full range of lands with Basics and Nonbasics, good to hit both but they go get back another land with deck thinning.
Golgari Brownscale
This card allows you to survive much longer against burn and fast aggro. Having access to two allows each black mana to turn into 2 life.
Shriekmaw
The card that pushed the deck up a notch. For 2, we’ve got a terror. Alone, that’s not spectacular, however, because of how evoke works, we’re allowed to respond to the sacrifice trigger once it enters the battlefield. This isn’t necessary to get the full effect from ‘Maw, but certainly helps. While he’s got a small butt, the fact that he’s got fear is also incredibly useful.
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Does amazingly well against anything with pro-black or shroud. A good beatstick too.
Viscera Seer
While building the deck, I realized that Krovikan Horror alone wouldn’t make for the consistency needed to use TE effectively. Viscera Seer fits several characteristics:
Tombstalker
Something I wanna replace for a more cheaper win con. But in a deck so reliant on graveyard order, the delve mechanic is amazing; you now have the ability to remove pesky sorceries and instants that are dividing your Krovikan Horrors and remove the weaker creatures to make the most of your Corpse Dance. Plus the fact that it’s a 5/5 with evasion isn’t too shabby.
Vampire Nighthawk
A singleton free slot and I thought he might help with clump blocking with life gain and deathtouch. Is also a beater with flying too.
Necroplasm
He blows up creatures (especially weenie decks), especially when you wrench mind + duress his hand away, dredges to come back. He clump blocks too.
Duress
One of the best 1cmc disruption you can get, nothing much to say here.
Wrench Mind
Originally Hymn to Tourach (which exceeded the budget). More disruption, there to help accentuate TE Control’s control qualities.
Buried Alive
Buried Alive allows for more consistency in the deck. Being able to grab 3 creatures from your deck can be useful (toolbox like too), but alongside with Tortured Existence, you can generate massive card advantage.
Loxodon Warhammer
Initially Umezawa's Jitte, but well, everyone knows that jitte costs a bomb. But with budget comes a price, I can't pump the creature during combat phase nor ping away creatures. But I get trample as a form of evasion and a small pump of +3 to the front.
I really appreciate the effort of making such posts.
- Discard: Hymn to Tourach should actualy be cheap enough for your budget. Wrench Mind isn't great and with your recurrsion engine I'd think about having atleast some discard be creature based. Augur of Skulls would be the 2cmc option and more of a control card, while Liliana's Specter is more agressive and better in multiplayer.
- Edict creatures: You don't have to take out all Gatekeepers for Marauder, I'd suggest a 3:1 split or 2:2 if you play more multiplayer.
- Grim Harvest: Try one over the third Hammer.
- Wincons: Nezumi Graverobber getting back creatures from any grave repeated is really strong and wins games; or Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, straight forward bamf.
edit: one can see where a picture is hosted, your reminder text isn't needed...
- Discard: Hymn to Tourach should actualy be cheap enough for your budget. Wrench Mind isn't great and with your recurrsion engine I'd think about having atleast some discard be creature based. Augur of Skulls would be the 2cmc option and more of a control card, while Liliana's Specter is more agressive and better in multiplayer.
- Edict creatures: You don't have to take out all Gatekeepers for Marauder, I'd suggest a 3:1 split or 2:2 if you play more multiplayer.
- Grim Harvest: Try one over the third Hammer.
- Wincons: Nezumi Graverobber getting back creatures from any grave repeated is really strong and wins games; or Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, straight forward bamf.
Yea, Wrench Mind was initially hymn, but everyone here sells it for about 2 bucks, so I'll avoid it......for now. Augur of Skulls looks quite good over Wrench Mind as it can recur just that the upkeep activation might be a turn slow.
I'll try a 3:1 split for edict effects. Fleshbag symmetry isn't as good unless I need a sac outlet.
Grim Harvest could be a temporary solution recurring method for TE.
As for wincon, I'm thinking of Extractor Demon (synergy with TE plus tutorable with buried alive), Nihilith (with TE online, he comes in quick) or Epochrasite (hard to remove creatures that is a beatstick late game) actually. So these might be choices that might be worth consideration.
But it's hard to find a card to replace Tombstalker as it's a beater + Delve. I'll try nezumi, but it looks rather mana intensive.
Maybe something big with Unearth like Extractor Demon (edit: OP beat me to it XD)? You can discard him or he can get Dredged into the GY, then he swings for 5 for :2mana::symb:, and can put more stuff in your GY. Zombify or Call to the Grave partnered with some bombs might be nice whereas your dumping critters into your GY. Blutsau was onto something when he suggested Nezumi Graverobber, it's pretty sweet.
Maybe something big with Unearth like Extractor Demon (edit: OP beat me to it XD)? You can discard him or he can get Dredged into the GY, then he swings for 5 for :2mana::symb:, and can put more stuff in your GY. Zombify or Call to the Grave partnered with some bombs might be nice whereas your dumping critters into your GY. Blutsau was onto something when he suggested Nezumi Graverobber, it's pretty sweet.
Great minds think alike =D
I used corpse dance + sac outlet initially (the original TE) but it took too much space.
5cmc is a little too heavy for a control card, and I have quite a bit of removal.
Nezumi looks great just that in late game when you discard your opponents' hand + blowing up/saccing his creatures, flipping it is gonna be hard.
Viscera Seer seems really really crappy. With the Feeder you get a good threat out of the deal instead of a really wimpy Scry 1. Plagued Ruskala could be some more removal.
Nighthawk is too random and not a toolbox creature for a one of.
Budget option for Tombstalker could be Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Less than a buck, flies, snipes off creatures to get bigger. Takes some mana though which you might not have.
Keeping this multiplayer friendly I wouldn't run targeted discard and use Lili's Specter or just don't run any discard at all since no one likes that in multiplayer games.
TE is one of my favorite cards and probably my favorite common in the MTG card pool so I wish you luck with this deck. I had a BG Madness variant for awhile and also tried some of Poppele's builds. Having the green as a second color is nice because it gives you Krosan Tusker (really nice card advantage when used over and over) and Briarhorn. Both cost just one G and are splashable in there by adding some Terramorphic Expanse and some Tainted Wood (cheap dual land). Briarhorn was surprisingly useful in my experience as a recurrable combat trick kind of like how you use Shriekmaw for recurrable removal. You can make an instant speed 6/6 during your opponents turn or evoke it for a giant growth or evoke it twice for a Might of Oaks type effect.
Viscera Seer seems really really crappy. With the Feeder you get a good threat out of the deal instead of a really wimpy Scry 1. Plagued Rusalka could be some more removal.
Oh I ran viscera because at least she can block (against fast aggro) feeder works better vs control/combo. But in casual, feeder is probably better.
Budget option for Tombstalker could be Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Less than a buck, flies, snipes off creatures to get bigger. Takes some mana though which you might not have.
Yea, I don't have that much mana (from testing). Thus, I was thinking Extractor Demon (synergy with TE plus tutorable with buried alive) or Nihilith (with TE online, he comes in quick).
Keeping this multiplayer friendly I wouldn't run targeted discard and use Lili's Specter or just don't run any discard at all since no one likes that in multiplayer games.
To clarify, this deck is designed to run 1v1 but able to function sufficiently enough in MP, thus targeted discard for SP (I'm not running Hymn because it can lead to real bad scenarios from experience) and fleshbag for MP.
TE is one of my favorite cards and probably my favorite common in the MTG card pool so I wish you luck with this deck. I had a BG Madness variant for awhile and also tried some of Poppele's builds. Having the green as a second color is nice because it gives you Krosan Tusker (really nice card advantage when used over and over) and Briarhorn. Both cost just one G and are splashable in there by adding some Terramorphic Expanse and some Tainted Wood (cheap dual land). Briarhorn was surprisingly useful in my experience as a recurrable combat trick kind of like how you use Shriekmaw for recurrable removal. You can make an instant speed 6/6 during your opponents turn or evoke it for a giant growth or evoke it twice for a Might of Oaks type effect.
Oh regarding the green splash, I so far only used it (from experience) for tusker, krosan grip and goyf. But in the end, Jitte made it, but here, Hammer. (And I don't want to tempt myself to put in verdant catacombs + bayou :P)
My shift from the usual TE (poppele's) to a deck more similar to survival deck (meaning the deck runs fine without TE), as such sac outlets are less necessary, something like a MBC with the TE engine, meaning cards are ran with the idea of being good on their own (I had issues by running TE as a main card there are times you don't live long enough to get a tutor or wait to draw TE, mulli into oblivion just for TE is not a good idea).
Check out the Nightmare Effect for a deck like this in Legacy developing competetive. It runs the Krovakian Horror TE engine.
Yes this deck is derived from the idea there. However, Poppele's concept runs heavily on TE itself, people such as Pinguster as taken another approach towards this deck. Which is what I am doing too.
Oh I ran viscera because at least she can block (against fast aggro) feeder works better vs control/combo. But in casual, feeder is probably better.
Yea, I don't have that much mana (from testing). Thus, I was thinking Extractor Demon (synergy with TE plus tutorable with buried alive) or Nihilith (with TE online, he comes in quick).
Oh regarding the green splash, I so far only used it (from experience) for tusker, krosan grip and goyf. But in the end, Jitte made it, but here, Hammer. (And I don't want to tempt myself to put in verdant catacombs + bayou :P)
Well running a 1/1 so it can chump just sounds loose to me. You're better off running a removal spell in that slot then.
Nihilith's thing triggers only when a card goes into the opponent's graveyard.
TE is mana hungry, by running Tusker I could keep hitting land drops and get some extra cards as well. If not that then maybe you can get some mana from Crypt of Agadeem? Wouldn't be consistent but could get very good.
What do you think of Ashen Ghoul in a deck like this?
Well running a 1/1 so it can chump just sounds loose to me. You're better off running a removal spell in that slot then.
Well, that slot has to be a sac outlet for the TE engine, anyway, I realised that feeder is probably better as if I have to block with seer, I'm in a pretty bad state.
TE is mana hungry, by running Tusker I could keep hitting land drops and get some extra cards as well. If not that then maybe you can get some mana from Crypt of Agadeem? Wouldn't be consistent but could get very good.
What do you think of Ashen Ghoul in a deck like this?
Regarding Crypt, I might have to compare with Cabal Coffers where cabal coffers can be activated the turn it comes in but can't be tapped for mana vs crypt can be tapped for mana but can't use activated the turn it comes in.
Ashen Ghoul might need testing to see how aggro he is. But having 3 cards above him might complicate matters (it's already a headache with horror), further testing will tell.
The deck stalls the game in late game to throw out Tombstalker (which might become Extractor Demon) and/or just equipping a creature with Jitte (which in this case is Hammer) and beat face. I'm also thinking of Genju of the Fens, but he eats tons of mana.
EDIT:
Updated Decklist
Ok, Grim Harvest is kinda not working, he recurs stuff back, but after that sticks in the gy waiting to be removed himself or recur if I have the mana (which quite a few times I don't). Besides if I tutor, I'll look for TE anyway.
And, Necroplasm is bad in casual (I don't find sligh, empty the warrens tokens and efficient weenie, I find high cmc creatures, shucks)
Lastly, I just realised that having feeder to sac for evoke trigger and without corpse dance or anything, starts to become meh. So I'll drop him too.
EDIT2:
Added:
Stinkweed Imp over Necroplasm
Put Vampire Nighthawk back plus 2 more over feeder
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (since I have one)
1 Leechridden Swamp (for MP pingers, since I have one too)
EDIT3:
Updated Thread title, as this deck isn't TE Control (with or without Rec)
Well one big difference between Crypt and Coffers is Crypt costs less than a buck and Coffers is ~$5. EtB tapped might mess up your timing a bit but in the late game it could be really nice. But Coffers wasn't online until you had three swamps out in addition to it.
Why the Imp? Just to Dredge more dudes into your yard? I guess that makes sense but you have a lot of non-creature business you could lose. Although if you're dredging Imp you could be at a point where top deck discard isn't too great.
Nighthawk + Hammer makes a lot of sense since I think you gain double life plus it's evasive.
You've probably considered Dark Ritual. It might help you get started a turn faster with your graveyard shenanigans at the cost of a card. It might actually not be awful since Ritualing into Buried Alive gets you two free cards (like it cantrips), you could also force out Nighthawk on turn one.
Well one big difference between Crypt and Coffers is Crypt costs less than a buck and Coffers is ~$5. EtB tapped might mess up your timing a bit but in the late game it could be really nice. But Coffers wasn't online until you had three swamps out in addition to it.
Coffers is still 5?! That's like during Type 2 Odyssey.
Why the Imp? Just to Dredge more dudes into your yard? I guess that makes sense but you have a lot of non-creature business you could lose. Although if you're dredging Imp you could be at a point where top deck discard isn't too great.
Imp is there under testing actually, when you're looking down at Leatherback Baloth, Terravore and Skyshroud War Beast and an occasional tarmogoyf. In the worse case scenario, he's a 1/2 flying recurring blocker that eats PtE/StP, at best he's a brilliant, recurring, tutorable wall which you have access to without needing TE.
You've probably considered Dark Ritual. It might help you get started a turn faster with your graveyard shenanigans at the cost of a card. It might actually not be awful since Ritualing into Buried Alive gets you two free cards (like it cantrips), you could also force out Nighthawk on turn one.
Also let me know how testing goes.
Regarding that, a couple of stuff I have said above in parts.
This deck is moving away from the Nightmare Effect and TE Pauper control.
Also, during initial testing of a deck relying heavily on TE, I had a couple of issues.
Needs TE to work, which means some form of tutoring to get it out consistently which legacy haven't got a solution in black/green yet.
Eats tons of mana to use the nightmare effect which is TE + Nightmare (i.e. Faceless Butcher)
The reanimation rocks (from my sig you know I'm a reanimator player, meaning I love cheating big stuff in XD) but consumes a huge portion of the deck space.
And because of any combination of factors above, the deck is VERY slow, even with Chrome Mox, which leads me to my death before anything is established.
Not too sure if you're familiar with Bant Survival from Legacy. It's an aggro control deck with the survival of the fittest engine. However, unlike the other survival builds, it is NOT dependent on Survival.
Same applies here. The deck unlike prior incantations, doesn't build around TE so heavily at the same time trying to fix the issues above.
Other reasons (which are might not be relevant) also include that this was initially designed as Legacy Competitive, which means I see like tons of GY hate and Wastes/Nonbasic Land hate (my casual playgroup loves Land D (Stone Rains) including Dust Bowl, Blood Moon and Back to Basics, cheap efficient creatures and midrange decks).
As for Rituals, I find them to be dead later, I rather have Twisted Abomination (swamp cycling) over Rit (I am unable to perform a hard lock) and do not rely so much on TE to spam an early BA. If I had to use it, it would be Duress > Wrench Mind to get more information of my opp deck.
BTW, any suggested name for the deck?
EDIT: I stumbled on to High Market, might be worth as a singleton. But activating once per turn seems bad.
Budget aside, looks well thought out and good for casual.
TE is a underrated casual gem, methinks.
Nothing to suggest from my camp, though I will think on it.
Well done.
Well that's because TE is always compared to survival of the fittest (now even we have a creature version of survival) and gy hate is much more common.
Thanks =)
Hope to hear more comments about it too.
(maybe even if it gets stickied as a new concept for casual players to try out =D)
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade might be good to pump out those Swamps. Pitch to get swamps, use TE, pitch to get more swamps, etc, etc. He costs about $5 (depending on where you get/order them). Then you could Corrupt for the big finish. Or Rite of Consumption Korlash one or two times.
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade might be good to pump out those Swamps. Pitch to get swamps, use TE, pitch to get more swamps, etc, etc. He costs about $5 (depending on where you get/order them). Then you could Corrupt for the big finish. Or Rite of Consumption Korlash one or two times.
It should work though probably need a 4 of to get the grandeur ability out (since I have no draw effects).
But the other part about grandeur is about screwing up the gy order though, since now I do not have tombstalker to clean my gy.
EDIT:
For the record, although I was kinda hoping to get something like peasant format like deck but
the deck now consists of:
6 Rares
24 Uncommons
14 Commons (excluding 16 Basic Lands)
(no SB included)
As compared to my current decks (including SB): DDFT
41 Rares
12 Uncommons
21 Commons (excluding 1 Basic Land)
I have seen a Tortured Existence madness deck that works very well, it is a pauper deck and I believe it is black and green. I have just played it once or twice so don't remember that much about it but I am sure if your interested you could find something in the Variant Formats section of the site.
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311 "Who's Got the Herb"
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I have seen a Tortured Existence madness deck that works very well, it is a pauper deck and I believe it is black and green. I have just played it once or twice so don't remember that much about it but I am sure if your interested you could find something in the Variant Formats section of the site.
Yea, I saw it, actually I know how to make a fully competitive one too, just that because of that, Survival comes into play, which makes TE looks like garbage.
It is worth discussion (maybe depending on responses, maybe I'll rewrite the whole primer with my Variant (aggro control/midrange) and others such as Nightmare (control @ http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=231984), Madness (aggro) and the Dredge variant (aggro).
I don't really like warhammer, and oversold cemetery seems incredible for this deck, so I'd cut the 3 warhammers for 2 cemeteries (existence is already quite good, and you might not always need this) and 1 more golgari brownscale to stay alive longer.
EDIT: just read the earlier post suggesting hymn and seeing it's to pricey... well, I'd still suggest the cemetery...
To the mods: The images posted are hosted on magiccards.info. This does not violate the image leeching rules for the forums.
Thank you.
Don't laugh
Ok this is my real first time, building a deck on a budget (other attempts at budget resulted in decks that costs 100-200 at minimum or real jank aggro only decks that doesn't accomplish anything).
So here's my current objectives:
A couple of things before we begin:
Of course, I'll write a short primer on how this deck works.
Introduction
This grave-based control deck (a much fresh take on MBC) was derived from The Nightmare Effect by Poppeleseed + Pauper TE Control. This deck aims to generate card advantage via Krovikan Horror + Tortured Existence in conjunction with the many synergies present.
Unlike it's prior incantations (this list doesn't resemble any of the older lists anymore), this deck is built with the logic of having each card better on it's own (Thanks Pinguster), similar to Bant Survival decks.
Grave Existence is a fun deck to pilot. It does take some thinking to work, as it relies heavily on graveyard order and can be abit of mindboggling to run at times, but it'll pay off. If you’re looking for something that requires play skill, is easy to learn but a pain to master, this is the deck for you.
Card Choices
Tortured Existence
The core card of the deck. In conjunction with Krovikan Horror, the card advantage generated plus the many plays from TE itself from this 1 cmc enchantment becomes ridiculous.
Krovikan Horror
I’d hate to say that this is the card that makes the CA engine work, but it’s true. His activated ability is also a vital part of the deck, as it is another enabler for TE. Because no other creature has an ability similar enough to this, Krovikan Horror is very difficult to replace. Because Krovikan Horror relies so heavily on graveyard order, Tortured Existence makes it significantly better. NOTE: Krovikan Horror’s triggered ability checks at the end of *each* turn. This allows for tricks i.e. with Faerie Macabre.
Dread Statuary
Initially Mishra's Factory and this was the best budget alternative I can think of.
Ghost Quarter
Initially Wasteland, but casual meta have a full range of lands with Basics and Nonbasics, good to hit both but they go get back another land with deck thinning.
Golgari Brownscale
This card allows you to survive much longer against burn and fast aggro. Having access to two allows each black mana to turn into 2 life.
Shriekmaw
The card that pushed the deck up a notch. For 2, we’ve got a terror. Alone, that’s not spectacular, however, because of how evoke works, we’re allowed to respond to the sacrifice trigger once it enters the battlefield. This isn’t necessary to get the full effect from ‘Maw, but certainly helps. While he’s got a small butt, the fact that he’s got fear is also incredibly useful.
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Does amazingly well against anything with pro-black or shroud. A good beatstick too.
Viscera Seer
While building the deck, I realized that Krovikan Horror alone wouldn’t make for the consistency needed to use TE effectively. Viscera Seer fits several characteristics:
Tombstalker
Something I wanna replace for a more cheaper win con. But in a deck so reliant on graveyard order, the delve mechanic is amazing; you now have the ability to remove pesky sorceries and instants that are dividing your Krovikan Horrors and remove the weaker creatures to make the most of your Corpse Dance. Plus the fact that it’s a 5/5 with evasion isn’t too shabby.
Vampire Nighthawk
A singleton free slot and I thought he might help with clump blocking with life gain and deathtouch. Is also a beater with flying too.
Necroplasm
He blows up creatures (especially weenie decks), especially when you wrench mind + duress his hand away, dredges to come back. He clump blocks too.
Beseech the Queen
A silver bullet type tutor.
Duress
One of the best 1cmc disruption you can get, nothing much to say here.
Wrench Mind
Originally Hymn to Tourach (which exceeded the budget). More disruption, there to help accentuate TE Control’s control qualities.
Buried Alive
Buried Alive allows for more consistency in the deck. Being able to grab 3 creatures from your deck can be useful (toolbox like too), but alongside with Tortured Existence, you can generate massive card advantage.
Loxodon Warhammer
Initially Umezawa's Jitte, but well, everyone knows that jitte costs a bomb. But with budget comes a price, I can't pump the creature during combat phase nor ping away creatures. But I get trample as a form of evasion and a small pump of +3 to the front.
Final Not-So-Budget Decklist (61 Cards) [1 V 1]:
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Volrath's Stronghold
16 Swamp
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Creatures
3 Krovikan Horror
2 Golgari Brownscale
4 Shriekmaw
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Stinkweed Imp
2 Beseech the Queen
4 Wrench Mind
4 Tortured Existence
3 Duress
3 Buried Alive
3 Loxodon Warhammer
EDIT:
I made a SB to transition from Single Player to Multiplayer
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Innocent Blood
2 Crystal ball
3 Pithing Needle
So for Multiplayer I would go:
- 4 Wrench Mind
- 3 Duress
- 2 Beseech the Queen
- 1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
+ 4 Innocent Blood
+ 3 Oblivion Stone
+ 2 Crystal Ball
+ 1 Fleshbag Marauder
Budget Decklist:
2 Dread Statuary
2 Ghost Quarter
16 Swamp
1 Leechridden Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Creatures
3 Krovikan Horror
2 Golgari Brownscale
4 Shriekmaw
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Extractor Demon
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Stinkweed Imp
2 Beseech the Queen
4 Wrench Mind
4 Tortured Existence
3 Duress
3 Buried Alive
3 Loxodon Warhammer
Original List
2 Dread Statuary
2 Ghost Quarter
18 Swamp
// Creatures
3 Krovikan Horror
2 Golgari Brownscale
4 Shriekmaw
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Viscera Seer
2 Tombstalker
1 Vampire nighthawk
1 Necroplasm
2 Beseech the Queen
4 Wrench Mind
4 Tortured Existence
3 Duress
3 Buried Alive
3 Loxodon Warhammer
Other Options considering:
This list needs tuning, hope to get some of you guys input on this =D
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
- Discard: Hymn to Tourach should actualy be cheap enough for your budget. Wrench Mind isn't great and with your recurrsion engine I'd think about having atleast some discard be creature based. Augur of Skulls would be the 2cmc option and more of a control card, while Liliana's Specter is more agressive and better in multiplayer.
- Edict creatures: You don't have to take out all Gatekeepers for Marauder, I'd suggest a 3:1 split or 2:2 if you play more multiplayer.
- Grim Harvest: Try one over the third Hammer.
- Wincons: Nezumi Graverobber getting back creatures from any grave repeated is really strong and wins games; or Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, straight forward bamf.
edit: one can see where a picture is hosted, your reminder text isn't needed...
Thought of that actually, just that I don't want to splash green, black madness spells aren't too great either.
Thank you.
Yea, Wrench Mind was initially hymn, but everyone here sells it for about 2 bucks, so I'll avoid it......for now. Augur of Skulls looks quite good over Wrench Mind as it can recur just that the upkeep activation might be a turn slow.
I'll try a 3:1 split for edict effects. Fleshbag symmetry isn't as good unless I need a sac outlet.
Grim Harvest could be a temporary solution recurring method for TE.
As for wincon, I'm thinking of Extractor Demon (synergy with TE plus tutorable with buried alive), Nihilith (with TE online, he comes in quick) or Epochrasite (hard to remove creatures that is a beatstick late game) actually. So these might be choices that might be worth consideration.
But it's hard to find a card to replace Tombstalker as it's a beater + Delve. I'll try nezumi, but it looks rather mana intensive.
I have demonic tutor at home, but it's not legacy legal so yea. As for tutoring I have included Beseech the Queen for that purpose =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Great minds think alike =D
I used corpse dance + sac outlet initially (the original TE) but it took too much space.
5cmc is a little too heavy for a control card, and I have quite a bit of removal.
Nezumi looks great just that in late game when you discard your opponents' hand + blowing up/saccing his creatures, flipping it is gonna be hard.
I'm also considering of adding leechridden swamp as a pinger.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Nighthawk is too random and not a toolbox creature for a one of.
Budget option for Tombstalker could be Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Less than a buck, flies, snipes off creatures to get bigger. Takes some mana though which you might not have.
Would recommend Big Game Hunter or Nightshade Assassin for recurrable removal plus madness is really great with TE.
Keeping this multiplayer friendly I wouldn't run targeted discard and use Lili's Specter or just don't run any discard at all since no one likes that in multiplayer games.
TE is one of my favorite cards and probably my favorite common in the MTG card pool so I wish you luck with this deck. I had a BG Madness variant for awhile and also tried some of Poppele's builds. Having the green as a second color is nice because it gives you Krosan Tusker (really nice card advantage when used over and over) and Briarhorn. Both cost just one G and are splashable in there by adding some Terramorphic Expanse and some Tainted Wood (cheap dual land). Briarhorn was surprisingly useful in my experience as a recurrable combat trick kind of like how you use Shriekmaw for recurrable removal. You can make an instant speed 6/6 during your opponents turn or evoke it for a giant growth or evoke it twice for a Might of Oaks type effect.
Signature by Theismisacrime and Avatar by Fio both of-
Damnation Studios.
Oh I ran viscera because at least she can block (against fast aggro) feeder works better vs control/combo. But in casual, feeder is probably better.
Nighthawk is to stall (and block goyf before this deck became casual), though Grim Harvest might be a fit in here as a pseudo TE.
Yea, I don't have that much mana (from testing). Thus, I was thinking Extractor Demon (synergy with TE plus tutorable with buried alive) or Nihilith (with TE online, he comes in quick).
The issue I have with madness is that they aren't good on their own and relies on TE.
To clarify, this deck is designed to run 1v1 but able to function sufficiently enough in MP, thus targeted discard for SP (I'm not running Hymn because it can lead to real bad scenarios from experience) and fleshbag for MP.
Oh regarding the green splash, I so far only used it (from experience) for tusker, krosan grip and goyf. But in the end, Jitte made it, but here, Hammer. (And I don't want to tempt myself to put in verdant catacombs + bayou :P)
My shift from the usual TE (poppele's) to a deck more similar to survival deck (meaning the deck runs fine without TE), as such sac outlets are less necessary, something like a MBC with the TE engine, meaning cards are ran with the idea of being good on their own (I had issues by running TE as a main card there are times you don't live long enough to get a tutor or wait to draw TE, mulli into oblivion just for TE is not a good idea).
Yes this deck is derived from the idea there. However, Poppele's concept runs heavily on TE itself, people such as Pinguster as taken another approach towards this deck. Which is what I am doing too.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Well running a 1/1 so it can chump just sounds loose to me. You're better off running a removal spell in that slot then.
Nihilith's thing triggers only when a card goes into the opponent's graveyard.
TE is mana hungry, by running Tusker I could keep hitting land drops and get some extra cards as well. If not that then maybe you can get some mana from Crypt of Agadeem? Wouldn't be consistent but could get very good.
What do you think of Ashen Ghoul in a deck like this?
Well, that slot has to be a sac outlet for the TE engine, anyway, I realised that feeder is probably better as if I have to block with seer, I'm in a pretty bad state.
Oh thanks, I must have missed it. Though with tons of removal + discard, I think it might work fine.
Regarding Crypt, I might have to compare with Cabal Coffers where cabal coffers can be activated the turn it comes in but can't be tapped for mana vs crypt can be tapped for mana but can't use activated the turn it comes in.
Ashen Ghoul might need testing to see how aggro he is. But having 3 cards above him might complicate matters (it's already a headache with horror), further testing will tell.
The deck stalls the game in late game to throw out Tombstalker (which might become Extractor Demon) and/or just equipping a creature with Jitte (which in this case is Hammer) and beat face. I'm also thinking of Genju of the Fens, but he eats tons of mana.
EDIT:
Updated Decklist
Ok, Grim Harvest is kinda not working, he recurs stuff back, but after that sticks in the gy waiting to be removed himself or recur if I have the mana (which quite a few times I don't). Besides if I tutor, I'll look for TE anyway.
And, Necroplasm is bad in casual (I don't find sligh, empty the warrens tokens and efficient weenie, I find high cmc creatures, shucks)
Lastly, I just realised that having feeder to sac for evoke trigger and without corpse dance or anything, starts to become meh. So I'll drop him too.
EDIT2:
Added:
Stinkweed Imp over Necroplasm
Put Vampire Nighthawk back plus 2 more over feeder
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (since I have one)
1 Leechridden Swamp (for MP pingers, since I have one too)
EDIT3:
Updated Thread title, as this deck isn't TE Control (with or without Rec)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Why the Imp? Just to Dredge more dudes into your yard? I guess that makes sense but you have a lot of non-creature business you could lose. Although if you're dredging Imp you could be at a point where top deck discard isn't too great.
Nighthawk + Hammer makes a lot of sense since I think you gain double life plus it's evasive.
You've probably considered Dark Ritual. It might help you get started a turn faster with your graveyard shenanigans at the cost of a card. It might actually not be awful since Ritualing into Buried Alive gets you two free cards (like it cantrips), you could also force out Nighthawk on turn one.
Also let me know how testing goes.
Coffers is still 5?! That's like during Type 2 Odyssey.
Imp is there under testing actually, when you're looking down at Leatherback Baloth, Terravore and Skyshroud War Beast and an occasional tarmogoyf. In the worse case scenario, he's a 1/2 flying recurring blocker that eats PtE/StP, at best he's a brilliant, recurring, tutorable wall which you have access to without needing TE.
Well, Jitte works wonders here but remember the new Trample + Deathtouch combat rules
Regarding that, a couple of stuff I have said above in parts.
This deck is moving away from the Nightmare Effect and TE Pauper control.
Also, during initial testing of a deck relying heavily on TE, I had a couple of issues.
Not too sure if you're familiar with Bant Survival from Legacy. It's an aggro control deck with the survival of the fittest engine. However, unlike the other survival builds, it is NOT dependent on Survival.
Same applies here. The deck unlike prior incantations, doesn't build around TE so heavily at the same time trying to fix the issues above.
Other reasons (which are might not be relevant) also include that this was initially designed as Legacy Competitive, which means I see like tons of GY hate and Wastes/Nonbasic Land hate (my casual playgroup loves Land D (Stone Rains) including Dust Bowl, Blood Moon and Back to Basics, cheap efficient creatures and midrange decks).
As for Rituals, I find them to be dead later, I rather have Twisted Abomination (swamp cycling) over Rit (I am unable to perform a hard lock) and do not rely so much on TE to spam an early BA. If I had to use it, it would be Duress > Wrench Mind to get more information of my opp deck.
BTW, any suggested name for the deck?
EDIT: I stumbled on to High Market, might be worth as a singleton. But activating once per turn seems bad.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
--------------------------------------
"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
--------------------------------------
I only saw those online =(
The stores and traders here sell them at like 2.5ea, that's why =(
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
--------------------------------------
"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
--------------------------------------
I know =(
But if I buy online (I don't live in the States), the international shipping will make the cheap hymn into something as pricey or even more pricey =(
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
TE is a underrated casual gem, methinks.
Nothing to suggest from my camp, though I will think on it.
Well done.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4557651&postcount=1
TheWarden's Creative Commons Music Pick Project (Retired):
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=336498
Well that's because TE is always compared to survival of the fittest (now even we have a creature version of survival) and gy hate is much more common.
Thanks =)
Hope to hear more comments about it too.
(maybe even if it gets stickied as a new concept for casual players to try out =D)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
It should work though probably need a 4 of to get the grandeur ability out (since I have no draw effects).
But the other part about grandeur is about screwing up the gy order though, since now I do not have tombstalker to clean my gy.
EDIT:
For the record, although I was kinda hoping to get something like peasant format like deck but
the deck now consists of:
6 Rares
24 Uncommons
14 Commons (excluding 16 Basic Lands)
(no SB included)
As compared to my current decks (including SB):
DDFT
41 Rares
12 Uncommons
21 Commons (excluding 1 Basic Land)
Merfolk
15 Rares
34 Uncommons
14 Commons (excluding 12 Basic Lands)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
--------------------------------------
"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
--------------------------------------
Yea, I saw it, actually I know how to make a fully competitive one too, just that because of that, Survival comes into play, which makes TE looks like garbage.
There's a BG non madness, dredge one too.
The list is here:
6 Forest
3 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Island
9 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
// 33 Creatures
2 Abyssal Gatekeeper
4 Augur of Skulls
4 Crypt Rats
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Golgari Brownscale
2 Krosan Tusker
4 Mulldrifter
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Shambling Shell
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tortured Existence
2 Abyssal Gatekeeper
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
3 Sewerdreg
3 Wickerbough Elder
Madness one (outdated) more looks something like this:
7 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
11 Swamp
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
4 Throat Slitter
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Tortured Existence
It is worth discussion (maybe depending on responses, maybe I'll rewrite the whole primer with my Variant (aggro control/midrange) and others such as Nightmare (control @ http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=231984), Madness (aggro) and the Dredge variant (aggro).
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I don't really like warhammer, and oversold cemetery seems incredible for this deck, so I'd cut the 3 warhammers for 2 cemeteries (existence is already quite good, and you might not always need this) and 1 more golgari brownscale to stay alive longer.
EDIT: just read the earlier post suggesting hymn and seeing it's to pricey... well, I'd still suggest the cemetery...