Hi guys, I was very excited by the spoiler of Raff earlier today so I decided to try and come up with a Brawl list for him. It's important to note that I don't have any amazing deckbuilding skills whatsoever, hence why I'm here wanting to hear from more experienced players. First I swept through all blue and white cards in standard right now plus what we already know from Dominaria for what I thought could be playable cards in the colors and kinda piled them together just so I could see what I had and start narrowing down, I ended up with close to 100 cards and then started removing one at a time until I was left with this list:
At first I had a lot more legendary and/or artifact cards, some sagas too because that's the point of Raff, but when making the concessions I ended up removing them and leaving more counter magic, etc but I don't think it was enough to "kill the purpose". I'll list the cards I considered too so you guys can have the picture as a whole like I did at the beginning.
That's it. Looking forward to your insights. I can give my reasoning on why I left out (or in) a given card, so if there's something you guys feel like "what the hell were you thinking by not putting card X or Y on the final list?" please let me know.
I am surprised to see Cataclysmic Gearhulk on the bench, and would probably cut something for it. Karn, Scion of Urza is also real good. Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship are incredible even with only Raff to crew, and cards I'd think about. I also suspect 24 lands is too few for a deck with multiple 5 and 6 drops that wants to leave up countermagic.
I am surprised to see Cataclysmic Gearhulk on the bench, and would probably cut something for it. Karn, Scion of Urza is also real good. Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship are incredible even with only Raff to crew, and cards I'd think about. I also suspect 24 lands is too few for a deck with multiple 5 and 6 drops that wants to leave up countermagic.
I really wanted to play Cataclysmic Gearhulk if anything just because it is such a cool card, but I ended cutting it because I thought maybe people would simply keep their most valuable stuff, and given that I imagine Brawl will be a format were people will constantly be dropping stupid bombs, that made me a little concerned, the fact that it can potentially be flashed in this deck is very tempting though so I guess I'll reconsider him.
I was not sold on Karn for this deck because of a few reasons: without multiples to keep getting the good cards your opponent has exiled when you used your previous ones I feel like he's first ability would be fatesealing myself sometimes? Plus the deck it's not full blown dedicated to artifacts, not that it always has to be to justify Karn. I guess it's the first problem that bugs me the most, I thought that he probably wouldn't be as good as he will be as 4 of's?
About Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, funnily enough were cut precisely because I got a little unconfortable with the thought of having few creatures in the deck to crew it hahah. Plus, like I said, cuts felt very hard to make. Then again there's kind of a butterfly effect that goes on with adding/removing certain cards, for example, now that card X is back on the list then it gets more attractive to also put back cards Y or Z. Like, putting back the Gearhulk could mean it's now safer to remove Hour of Revelation, etc?
Kefnet the Mindful feels so good as a one of when I play him in UW Approach, the reasons that led me to believe he would be a good inclusion were the following: hard to remove, can provide constant card advantage, can ultimately be a win con if need be? What would be your problem with him? Is it that he hardly impacts the board when he etb? Even if he's cheap/possible to be flashed in, or is it something else?
Blink of an Eye and Opt. Blink I thought could be a panic button at earlier stages of the game, maybe bouncing something that they casted when you didn't have counters? Also it could save one of my creatures/planeswalkers in emergencies? Plus the kicker later in the game could make it not a dead draw? Opt I thought was just good filtering, do you think it's less relevant if you can't guarantee that you'll pretty much always have it in the early game (when it is more important) the way you can when you play 4?
Hour of Revelation was kind of a shock I admit hahah, I thought that a card that is basically a big dumb reset button would be a no brainer in this format, could you please explain your thought proccess on this one, not just this one, all the others too, but this got me scratching my head more than others I guess? hahah
Primal Amulet, this one I guess it's more easy for me to understand why it wouldn't be as impactful, the only things worth casting a copy of would be counters (and yet only in control mirrors) and Karn's Temporal Sundering. I guess I just thought "flash this in at eot and you have yourself a nice reduction on most of your spells". Not enough of an impact? I guess when it can't be flashed in it is pretty bad to lose a turn playing it...I know I should try to play cards that are good even when you cast them normally and not only when you have Raff out, is that the case here? Not good enough without Raff out?
As Foretold awww hahahaha AF is suuuch a dumb card, if it stays there it just keeps giving you ludicrous mana efficiency. Casting a Cast Out for free and still having mana up for Glimmer of Genius and stuff like that feels almost like cheating, why do you think it is not as good in the deck as I perceive it? Kind of a dead draw late in the game I'm guessing?
Azor, the Lawbringer Man, it must feel soooo good to flash him in at eot hahah. Plus he looks like such a ridiculous bomb. Why would you consider him for the cut? Maybe flashing him in is good in the way flashing in any 6/6 flyer would but Sphinx's Revelation in your own turn as opposed to your opponent's is not? But then again, it's (sorta) an uncounterable Sphinx's Revelation if you get to tap him.
Sorry for such a long reply and if you would be kind enough, please let me know what you think of my reasonings and where you think they're flawed, thank you very much in advance!
The important thing about Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship is that Raff can crew them by himself. Skysovereign is literally an artifact bolt at instant speed with Raff, then Raff can wake it up and swing with it on his turn for another bolt. That's pretty significant as far as spot removal or planeswalker removal. The Weatherlight can be dropped at opponent's end phase, then you can swing and fetch up another card on your turn to flash. Neither of those situations seems bad to me. Dovin Baan feels underwhelming at 4 mana. I actually would consider dropping him, Gideon of the Trials and Oath of Teferi, honestly. They feel like they are in there "just because". I feel like Manalith and Cultivator's Caravan should be in there for sure. Primal Amulet does seem kind of awkward in here. Are you avoiding these types of cards because of Urza's Ruinous Blast? I mean, I can certainly see why, but I feel deck restricting your entire deck because of one boardwipe is pretty awkward.
As Foretold - Not sure playing a sorcery speed card on turn 3 is where I wanna be and when drawn late it kinda takes awhile to actually become relevant, but at that point I'm probably in a good spot anyway if I managed to stay alive that much with a deck like this.
Opt - used my own reasoning for why it could not be worth it.
Urza's Ruinous Blast - Just figured I was hoping to go through too many hoops to get that big flashy play of casting it eot. I assume a lot of bombs that will be played in the format will be legends, plus people can always play their commanders which are things I wouldn't want to leave on the field after tapping for a wipe, plus it's just too unreliable to assume you'll have Raff out to enable it and if I have any other of my legends out I'm probably more interested in protecting them than tapping out to remove other stuff I guess?
Primal Amulet - was already inlcined and got 2 confirmations so it's gone.
Would you care to elaborate on the topic of removing the walkers and the Oath? I figured they were no-brainers, good bombs that can take advantage of Raff's ability or just be played normally late leaving mana up to protect them. Dovin being kinda slow at 4 mana doesn't bother me as much considering Brawl will probably be a slower format overall? They also are pretty good wincons, especially with Oath out, puts them on a pretty fast clock, Dovin's and Tefi's emblems are pretty much gg. Oath also serves as a protection spell that happens to leave a permanent with a stupid ability on the field. I mean, playing it to blink something else or Raff itself to save it from removal sounds good.
Approach of the Second Sun was one of the cards that were on the "bench". I play UW Approach so I know it can be very good, just don't know what I'd cut for it, plus tapping out for 7 mana looks more scary in Brawl than in Standard, usually other decks have pretty much run out of gas if you managed to stay alive to that point, but in Brawl I can see a lot of bombs and/or generals being dropped the following turn, add to that the fact that unlike in Standard I won't ever have the chance to have other Approach already in hand to cast the following turn and that you will have more players wanting your head than the usual single opponent and it gets me more worried about playing it. Anything I'm missing on this one?
So, stuff I'd still like to see discussed more in-depth to decide if they can be turned into slots for something else (more countermagic for instance or any others):
Kefnet, the Mindful, Hour of Revelation. I almost convinced myself about Kefnet but Hour is still a riddle for me as to why I wouldn't want it in the deck.
PS: just saw Gilded Lotus is in Dominaria, I'd probably want that, wouldn't I? And should I cut an Island for Memorial of Genius?
Would you care to elaborate on the topic of removing the walkers and the Oath? I figured they were no-brainers, good bombs that can take advantage of Raff's ability or just be played normally late leaving mana up to protect them. Dovin being kinda slow at 4 mana doesn't bother me as much considering Brawl will probably be a slower format overall? They also are pretty good wincons, especially with Oath out, puts them on a pretty fast clock, Dovin's and Tefi's emblems are pretty much gg. Oath also serves as a protection spell that happens to leave a permanent with a stupid ability on the field. I mean, playing it to blink something else or Raff itself to save it from removal sounds good.
Well, I'm looking at your curve, mostly. With your 4 and 5 slots, you need some high impact cards or at least things to help stabilize your control game. Teferi is fine, that is a solid wincon and his other abilities are pretty decent. Gideon just isn't going to be doing anything in here, you really need more answers or threats and Gideon just isn't either of those things (he tries to be with his plus, but it's just underwhelming at 3 mana in multiplayer). Dovan is just too slow and low impact. If you get his emblem off, great, otherwise you have a pretty lackluster 4 drop. When you cut those two, the oath gets a lot less appealing, even with flash.
With Approach, you have card draw and control, more wincons is good. This is a situation where Hour of Revelation might actually be useful as a setup for it. I mean, Ipnu Rivulet is a thing in blue, and a pretty solid answer to it in general, but I think it's still worth running in a control shell. I think my main issue with Hour is that it is definitely going to kill all of your mana rocks and Teferi, I think I would prefer a more creature-based wipe to keep that stuff intact for you. Slaughter the Strong will let you keep Raff out and will also kill big threats as well as clean out mass tokens and break stalls.
I would definitely run Gilded Lotus in here. I have some reservations on Memorials. On the one hand; lands that do things. On the other; more lands that enter tapped. Between the deserts and the dual color lands, it's starting to become kind of an issue I think. Drawing cards late game is pretty good though, so I don't know.
Thank you so much for your patience, it's always good to get another perspective from more experienced players. When deckbuilding it's easy to be seduced by certain cards and we have to try and keep our feet on the ground, your take on the PWs certainly helped a lot in that sense, thank you.
So I guess now we wait and see if more stuff is revealed in Dominaria that could be interesting for the deck and testing it out when the set is finally out. Super excited and looking forward to it. Thank you guys
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1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Arch of Orazca
1 Field of Ruin
1 Aether Hub
1 Meandering River
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Desert of the True
1 Desert of the Mindful
8 Island
6 Plains
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Azor, the Lawbringer
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Baird, Steward of Argive
1 As Foretold
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Oath of Teferi
1 Seal Away
1 Wizard's Retort
1 Spell Swindle
1 Supreme Will
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Admiral's Order
1 Disallow
1 Pull from Tomorrow
1 Glimmer of Genius
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Censor
1 Cast Out
1 Negate
1 Blink of an Eye
1 Essence Scatter
1 Opt
1 Fumigate
1 Hour of Revelation
1 Karn's Temporal Sundering
1 Urza's Ruinous Blast
1 Treasure Map
1 Primal Amulet
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Gideon of the Trials
1 Dovin Baan
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
At first I had a lot more legendary and/or artifact cards, some sagas too because that's the point of Raff, but when making the concessions I ended up removing them and leaving more counter magic, etc but I don't think it was enough to "kill the purpose". I'll list the cards I considered too so you guys can have the picture as a whole like I did at the beginning.
That's it. Looking forward to your insights. I can give my reasoning on why I left out (or in) a given card, so if there's something you guys feel like "what the hell were you thinking by not putting card X or Y on the final list?" please let me know.
I am surprised to see Cataclysmic Gearhulk on the bench, and would probably cut something for it. Karn, Scion of Urza is also real good. Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship are incredible even with only Raff to crew, and cards I'd think about. I also suspect 24 lands is too few for a deck with multiple 5 and 6 drops that wants to leave up countermagic.
Kefnet the Mindful, Blink of an Eye, Opt, Hour of Revelation, Primal Amulet, As Foretold, and Azor, the Lawbringer are probably the weakest cards in your deck (in roughly that order with most weak first), and the cards I'd consider cutting to find room for more stuff.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I really wanted to play Cataclysmic Gearhulk if anything just because it is such a cool card, but I ended cutting it because I thought maybe people would simply keep their most valuable stuff, and given that I imagine Brawl will be a format were people will constantly be dropping stupid bombs, that made me a little concerned, the fact that it can potentially be flashed in this deck is very tempting though so I guess I'll reconsider him.
I was not sold on Karn for this deck because of a few reasons: without multiples to keep getting the good cards your opponent has exiled when you used your previous ones I feel like he's first ability would be fatesealing myself sometimes? Plus the deck it's not full blown dedicated to artifacts, not that it always has to be to justify Karn. I guess it's the first problem that bugs me the most, I thought that he probably wouldn't be as good as he will be as 4 of's?
About Weatherlight and Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, funnily enough were cut precisely because I got a little unconfortable with the thought of having few creatures in the deck to crew it hahah. Plus, like I said, cuts felt very hard to make. Then again there's kind of a butterfly effect that goes on with adding/removing certain cards, for example, now that card X is back on the list then it gets more attractive to also put back cards Y or Z. Like, putting back the Gearhulk could mean it's now safer to remove Hour of Revelation, etc?
Kefnet the Mindful feels so good as a one of when I play him in UW Approach, the reasons that led me to believe he would be a good inclusion were the following: hard to remove, can provide constant card advantage, can ultimately be a win con if need be? What would be your problem with him? Is it that he hardly impacts the board when he etb? Even if he's cheap/possible to be flashed in, or is it something else?
Blink of an Eye and Opt. Blink I thought could be a panic button at earlier stages of the game, maybe bouncing something that they casted when you didn't have counters? Also it could save one of my creatures/planeswalkers in emergencies? Plus the kicker later in the game could make it not a dead draw? Opt I thought was just good filtering, do you think it's less relevant if you can't guarantee that you'll pretty much always have it in the early game (when it is more important) the way you can when you play 4?
Hour of Revelation was kind of a shock I admit hahah, I thought that a card that is basically a big dumb reset button would be a no brainer in this format, could you please explain your thought proccess on this one, not just this one, all the others too, but this got me scratching my head more than others I guess? hahah
Primal Amulet, this one I guess it's more easy for me to understand why it wouldn't be as impactful, the only things worth casting a copy of would be counters (and yet only in control mirrors) and Karn's Temporal Sundering. I guess I just thought "flash this in at eot and you have yourself a nice reduction on most of your spells". Not enough of an impact? I guess when it can't be flashed in it is pretty bad to lose a turn playing it...I know I should try to play cards that are good even when you cast them normally and not only when you have Raff out, is that the case here? Not good enough without Raff out?
As Foretold awww hahahaha AF is suuuch a dumb card, if it stays there it just keeps giving you ludicrous mana efficiency. Casting a Cast Out for free and still having mana up for Glimmer of Genius and stuff like that feels almost like cheating, why do you think it is not as good in the deck as I perceive it? Kind of a dead draw late in the game I'm guessing?
Azor, the Lawbringer Man, it must feel soooo good to flash him in at eot hahah. Plus he looks like such a ridiculous bomb. Why would you consider him for the cut? Maybe flashing him in is good in the way flashing in any 6/6 flyer would but Sphinx's Revelation in your own turn as opposed to your opponent's is not? But then again, it's (sorta) an uncounterable Sphinx's Revelation if you get to tap him.
Sorry for such a long reply and if you would be kind enough, please let me know what you think of my reasonings and where you think they're flawed, thank you very much in advance!
No Approach of the Second Sun or Mechanized Production? They are both wincons that seem pretty well-defended given your counter spells. Mechanized Production actually looks like it's solid with Powerstone Shard in particular, but it's even good just for cloning things like Torrential Gearhulk or even just other mana rocks.
As Foretold - Not sure playing a sorcery speed card on turn 3 is where I wanna be and when drawn late it kinda takes awhile to actually become relevant, but at that point I'm probably in a good spot anyway if I managed to stay alive that much with a deck like this.
Opt - used my own reasoning for why it could not be worth it.
Urza's Ruinous Blast - Just figured I was hoping to go through too many hoops to get that big flashy play of casting it eot. I assume a lot of bombs that will be played in the format will be legends, plus people can always play their commanders which are things I wouldn't want to leave on the field after tapping for a wipe, plus it's just too unreliable to assume you'll have Raff out to enable it and if I have any other of my legends out I'm probably more interested in protecting them than tapping out to remove other stuff I guess?
Primal Amulet - was already inlcined and got 2 confirmations so it's gone.
In: Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Skysovereign, Consul Flagship, Weatherlight, +1 Plains
Would you care to elaborate on the topic of removing the walkers and the Oath? I figured they were no-brainers, good bombs that can take advantage of Raff's ability or just be played normally late leaving mana up to protect them. Dovin being kinda slow at 4 mana doesn't bother me as much considering Brawl will probably be a slower format overall? They also are pretty good wincons, especially with Oath out, puts them on a pretty fast clock, Dovin's and Tefi's emblems are pretty much gg. Oath also serves as a protection spell that happens to leave a permanent with a stupid ability on the field. I mean, playing it to blink something else or Raff itself to save it from removal sounds good.
Approach of the Second Sun was one of the cards that were on the "bench". I play UW Approach so I know it can be very good, just don't know what I'd cut for it, plus tapping out for 7 mana looks more scary in Brawl than in Standard, usually other decks have pretty much run out of gas if you managed to stay alive to that point, but in Brawl I can see a lot of bombs and/or generals being dropped the following turn, add to that the fact that unlike in Standard I won't ever have the chance to have other Approach already in hand to cast the following turn and that you will have more players wanting your head than the usual single opponent and it gets me more worried about playing it. Anything I'm missing on this one?
Mechanized Production just feels too janky for me, even for Brawl.
So, stuff I'd still like to see discussed more in-depth to decide if they can be turned into slots for something else (more countermagic for instance or any others):
Kefnet, the Mindful, Hour of Revelation. I almost convinced myself about Kefnet but Hour is still a riddle for me as to why I wouldn't want it in the deck.
PS: just saw Gilded Lotus is in Dominaria, I'd probably want that, wouldn't I? And should I cut an Island for Memorial of Genius?
Well, I'm looking at your curve, mostly. With your 4 and 5 slots, you need some high impact cards or at least things to help stabilize your control game. Teferi is fine, that is a solid wincon and his other abilities are pretty decent. Gideon just isn't going to be doing anything in here, you really need more answers or threats and Gideon just isn't either of those things (he tries to be with his plus, but it's just underwhelming at 3 mana in multiplayer). Dovan is just too slow and low impact. If you get his emblem off, great, otherwise you have a pretty lackluster 4 drop. When you cut those two, the oath gets a lot less appealing, even with flash.
With Approach, you have card draw and control, more wincons is good. This is a situation where Hour of Revelation might actually be useful as a setup for it. I mean, Ipnu Rivulet is a thing in blue, and a pretty solid answer to it in general, but I think it's still worth running in a control shell. I think my main issue with Hour is that it is definitely going to kill all of your mana rocks and Teferi, I think I would prefer a more creature-based wipe to keep that stuff intact for you. Slaughter the Strong will let you keep Raff out and will also kill big threats as well as clean out mass tokens and break stalls.
I would definitely run Gilded Lotus in here. I have some reservations on Memorials. On the one hand; lands that do things. On the other; more lands that enter tapped. Between the deserts and the dual color lands, it's starting to become kind of an issue I think. Drawing cards late game is pretty good though, so I don't know.
Out: Gideon of the Trials, Dovin Baan, Oath of Teferi, Hour of Revelation
In: Cultivator's Caravan, Slaughter the Strong, Gilded Lotus, Approach of the Second Sun
Thank you so much for your patience, it's always good to get another perspective from more experienced players. When deckbuilding it's easy to be seduced by certain cards and we have to try and keep our feet on the ground, your take on the PWs certainly helped a lot in that sense, thank you.
So I guess now we wait and see if more stuff is revealed in Dominaria that could be interesting for the deck and testing it out when the set is finally out. Super excited and looking forward to it. Thank you guys