This thread is intended to discuss all aspects of “very small” cubes. For definition, this includes all cube sizes 270 and below. Based on PMs & other threads, we wanted a thread for “all things micro”, including:
Design considerations (theaters, archetypes)
Card selection for "flexibility & versatility"
Approach to card selection
Constraints based on cube size
Cube Management
Drafting approach/strategy (glimpse/Winston, how to accommodate 2/3/4 players)
Please, during discussion, note or link to your cube size & design constraints (rarity, theme, etc).
As a micro cube-thusiast, I can attest there isn’t a good place to discuss the design/drafting/management of micro cubes. The reasons for a micro cube seem to be many: smaller playgroup, travel/portability ambitions, teaching, interesting challenge (lol). Whatever the reason, this thread is for all things micro-cube. We’ve had a micro cube for a while, immediately upon building it seemed our there were unique aspects compared to our larger cube...others have shared the same.
Threads and discussions come up from time to time about smaller cubes, however they are somewhat infrequent. I suppose this is because there aren’t many micro cubes out there. That said, there’s been a bit more of micro discussion within the last year. And others have shared the difficulty in finding micro-cube info. Thus a thread seemed (to a few of us) a good method to discuss and capture.
As an aside, my group doesn't cube as often as most of you. Shoot, I myself am still trying to figure out better ways of micro-cubing, and wouldn't presume to be an expert. However, after IM's with other micro-thusiasts and other threads, I've started a thread for us to share our experiences, learnings, opinions and approaches.
I’ve had some interesting PMs with fellow MC’ers, and tossed together a list of some topics that could be discussed:
How to cut down from XXX “normal cube size” to “YYY micro cube size”
Recently discussed in another thread, was the topic of lands...can we kick the thread off with a land discussion?
First, our micro cube:
It's a 190-card cube, intended as a travel cube for 1 vs 1, occasionally drafted by 3/4. It was created by paring down our 400 powered old-schoolish cube. Our cube is powered, and designed with an old-school feel (we started early 90s). We cube with cards of any age, but certain cards and mechanics are excluded if they don't feel OG. And we're equal parts timmy/johnny/spike, so there's some ~10% unique card choices to support that. And it's called the boobie cube because boobie rhymes with two-bie (aka two-person), and boobies are cool, so there ya go. Oh, and every card is a pimped proxy, if it matters.
Onto lands...
What lands to play? How many lands should one play in a micro cube? I've heard from third power, and others say 10-15% of your cube should be land...some say even more. With every single card-slot at a premium in a micro-cube, we clearly have to be picky on what we run, but I encourage you not to be stingy on the lands. IMHO, lands are the last place to make hard cuts in a shrinking cube. We've found in a micro cube, especially 1vs1, it's tough to make 2 color deck work (since you could see fewer cards depending on the draft format)...an extra relevant land can make ALL the difference in going from a 3 color deck to a 2 color deck...and even moreso if you're trying to properly support a 3 color deck or splash.
At 190, we ended up at 26 lands, initially felt a tad high for a 190-card cube. I do feel that lands are sometimes underrated and undersupported in cubes. After drafing others' cubes in the "draft the above persons cube" thread, I'm happier to draft too many land, than not enough. I'm famous in my group for ALWAYS drafting a land (or P8) P1P1.
I'm also drafting a post on ranking of lands, and which to include, but I thought this could get us started
This is for sure a niche in a niche of the Magic community! The great thing about microcubes is how accessible they are for everyone.
Regarding lands/fixing, its something I struggle with. Including lands dedicated to specific guilds means including lands to support all the guilds, which instantly gobbles up a lot of cube real estate. That's why I've opted for artifact fixing, in-color fixing, and generic fetches (Evolving Wilds, et al). Then again, I'm in a 90-card environment, so 10 lands would eat up over 10% of my pile and I can't justify that.
My philosophy for designing my microcube has been "general over specific". So the more generally applicable a card is across all colors/strategies, the better it will be for your cube design. The more archetypes and effects you can consolidate into one card, the better it will be for filling different roles in your cube.
Another way to approach fixing is to be careful of mana costs. If you have limited fixing, be careful of including 2-drops with double mana requirements or multicolor cards that aren't hybrids. This is where microcube design gets fun (to me anyway). Example: Choosing Seeker of the Way over Knight of Meadowgrain. While in a vacuum, Knight of Meadowgrain is probably the better card, the fact that it has a WW mana cost makes it that much harder to cast in this cube, pushing Seeker of the Way over the top.
It still remains to be seen if a non-land fixing strategy is viable for micro-cubing, but if you think about it from a non-cube draft point of view, fixing is usually pretty limited anyway. Access to a single Evolving Wilds might be the only fixing you get in a draft. Because 360+ cubers get sort of spoiled with dual lands, fetches, etc, it becomes a compulsion to include them in cube lists--sort of "keeping to the style in which they have been accustomed".
@DrDrum: We come up with the Ten Commandments of Microcube Design? That sounds like an awesome exercise to me and would give us talking points.
Based on 6jerfz's recent cube list, I was inspired to put together a 90-card innistrad-themed microcube. Here were some of the topics my friends and I mulled over as we brainstormed its contents:
1. I'm sure this was intentional, but SOI's cross-color madness mechanic blends very, very well with old innistrad's flashback. The same ally-colored tribes are also present, meaning that there are a lot of axis to work off of when picking cards for each color and archetype. It was important to me that any given card would have some relevant tribal or mechanical key word, allowing it to occupy different roles in different decks.
1b. I think a micro-cube should strive to be more synergy and engine-based than a pure good stuff. Synergies and interactions will speed the process of color/archetype differentiation between the two players. It seems important to establish this early in the micro-draft.
2. My brainstorming partner and I wanted to represent all ten guilds in the cube. Innistrad facilitated this nicely with powerful and interesting off-color flashback and activated abilities. Even if one of these cards isn't in your primary or secondary color, chances are that you can get somebasic utility out of it, or a from-the-graveyard boost.
3. Balancing power across the colors and rarities has been a fun challenge so far. My group and I think that cards normally classified as "bombs" should be excluded from micro-cubes; they swing games too much, and are a frequent temptation to hate draft.
4. It was tempting at first to jam a ton of 1-drops into the cube's first design draft. It became evident pretty quick though that cheap 1-drop creatures would quickly get outclassed cards played later in the draft. The cube's overall CMC should probably skew more towards 2, 3, and 4 drops, with just a smattering of cards at 5+.
5. My group opted for a very small colorless section - 5 cards, 3 of which were evolving wilds. I orginally was planning to include a cycle of alara/tarkir tri lands, but it just seemed like too much space would be wasted.
6. I'm looking forward to eldrich moon, as a way to round off some of the cube's rough edges! Limiting myself to just innistrad cards has been a good way to keep a tight focus on theme and consistent power level.
7. I've got 3x khans and 3x theros draft sims collecting dust, and have been considering scrapping them for micro-cube fodder. Unfortunately, I don't think that either set has the same level of internal consistency and inter-related card mechanics as innistrad's madness and flashback. I'm curious if there are any other blocks out there that would work as well as a micro cube.
1 and 1b) I came to the same conclusions regarding synergy/engine vs. good stuff and cards that fill multiple roles. I would actually say that that is the single most important design consideration when making a micro cube. Very well said!
3) I had the same feeling with including "bombs", but rather than disincluding them, I made sure the omg-pick-this-right-now cards were balanced between colors. They give focus to your draft. That's my experience anyway. If I notice one is being drafted more than others and it is too polarizing, it gets the ax. So, it is a bit of a sticking point when designing your pile.
4) I had this issue and I've slowly been chipping away at it. I was frequently drafting decks with a curve centered around 2. Then again, I cost cards with evoke, cycling, etc at their ability cost, not at their CMC, so that could also contribute a bit to that.
5) Let us know how this works out. The colorless section, for me anyway, has been a great way to glue decks together. You have creatures, utility cards, fixing, etc that can literally be played in any deck. I have just as many colorless (or more) as I do in any individual color in my cube. You might want to test upping that amount.
I'm stoked that other people are getting down on the micro-cube! Keep the updates coming
Not sure if folks with small cubes have encountered this yet, but I'm developing doubts about the AI on cubetutor being able to accurately simulate player 2 in a micro draft. The AI is just constantly leaving cards it shouldn't on the table, even with a supposedly high AI rating (99-100).
Absolutely have. The cubetutor AI doesn't seem to work with a cube this small. The number of passes vs. picks is crazy skewed from draft to draft. I noticed that drafting colors X and Y one game greatly affects the subsequent drafts.
Perhaps a larger sample size is needed? It probably skews the draft because it's looking at the data available and there is not much, but I don't really know how the system works 100%.
I like the idea of developing a 10 commandments for micro cubes...should be a fun exercise.
But…before moving on to that, I did some followup on land here it is before I lose it lol. I've heard third power (and others) say 10-15% of your cube should be land. Rarely do you see people rank the best lands, you just run them (in normal cubes). I'ts usually more like "well, after duals and fetches, run man-lands or pain/check lands". Most “small to medium” sized cubes run duals, fetches, tap lands/pain lands/check lands, man lands, and/or great utility lands. While we all know those are the best of the best for normal cubes, once must be really selective in micro cubes, since we can't run 40 great lands.
Here are some good land threads that came up in a search:
At 180-ish, here's my personal opinion on no-limitation ranking: 1) ABUR Duals: I'm of the opinion that every cube (budget allowing) should run the ABUR duals, at a minimum. They're the best, period. 2) Library of Alexandria: I pick this over Sol Ring, but its oft debated. Again, budget allowing. 3) City of Brass/Mana Confluence/Grand Colosseum: Best 5-color fixing. 4) Fetches: Decks and duals naturally become better with fetches, as well other cards (Brainstorm, Top, etc)...so we made that happen. 5) Strip Mine: The best land killer.
Its either obvious or has been repeated often enough, but flexibility & efficiency are clutch when we make a micro cube…a card’s flexibility and versatility will increase its value the smaller a cube gets. While I quite like how duals/fetches and 5-color utility lands have worked in my cube, once you get smaller than 180-ish, one must (IMHO) consider the most efficient and flexible lands that can meet the needs of your cube, in as-few-a-cards-as-possible. Below 150, I’m not sure you can run duals & fetches, as 20 cards is a significant portion of your cube. But I'd still consider running the original duals in any (yes any) sized micro cube...and I don't make that comment lightly. Lands are just sooooo important, and at really small cube sizes where you're doing packs with fewer people, you need to be able to support the splash in case you don't get down to 2 colors. Beyond this, I’d consider and run as many 5-color, or universally fixing lands as possible. Here’s a stab at the most flexible multi-color lands:
Top-tier 5-color Lands City of Brass / Mana Confluence: Seem like the best fixing 5 color lands. Copy Lands: Lands that make a copy of lands you have in play (like Reflecting Pool) can automatically become the complimentary dual of whatever your two colors are. Gemstone Mine: Comes into play untapped, and can help get you to 4-5mana before it checks out. I’d probably only count it as a 0.5 land during deck building, though. Vivid Lands: Easy to splash, and fix rather well. Unfortunately they come into play tapped, but being able to make any mana without hindering the primary color offers great flexibility. Basic Fetches: Lands like evolving wilds are good, but I’ve not tried them personally. Getting any basic you need can’t be a bad thing, and they don’t take up a lot of room.
At 190, we ended up at 26 lands, which first felt a tad high for a 190-card cube...in practice it feels very right. I do feel that lands are underrated and undersupported in some cubes. After drafing others' cubes in the "draft the above persons cube" thread, I'm happier to draft too many land, than not enough. I'm famous in my group for ALWAYS drafting a land (or P8) P1P1.
We also play these Timmy/Johnny-friendly lands, which you may/may not desire: Vesuva (all our lands are great to copy) Thran Quarry (Better than city for aggro) Diamond Valley (Johnny friendly)
These lands are next tier, and if you have design/budget constraints may be worth considering. Beyond limitations, I don’t believe they make the cut: Dual color man lands: Ie. Celestial Colonnade. I'd rather have duals and fetches, however, we've learned flexibility trumps all others when it comes to micro cubes. In normal cubes, pain lands might probably rank higher, but the flexibility of making mana and a dude is hard to argue with. Wasteland: I feel micro cubes might have room for only 1 land destruction land, Strip Mine is better. On color man-lands: Ie Fairie Conclave. I'd categorize these as colored cards, not lands, but when micro-cubes have 15-30 cards per color, I doubt there is room for these...however, again, flexibility and versatility make them worth considering.
Regarding the Cube Tutor drafting, I've drafted my cube on there ALOT...and I feel like it dose a pretty decent job. However, someone recommended a while back to draft 5 packs of 9, with 3 bots. I remember it improving the drafting experience. Not sure for a 90 card, so this won't work that small.
EDIT: I also started populating the links post (post #2) of this thread. Anyone has links, lemme' know
So thinking about the "10" Commandments (we'll see if we need 10 )...there are a few design concepts my group came across, not skimping on the lands might be one of them.
A few "design commandments" I could propose off the top of my head. I think each of these should get some discussion
Decide what theaters (aggro/midrange/control/combo) each of your colors will support. (we tossed green aggro)
Decide which archetypes (reanimation, blink/bounce) you'd like to support.
Don't be afraid to limit theaters and archetypes, in order to allow sufficient support (7 well-supported archetypes is better than 13 insufficiently supported)
Prioritize versatility & flexibility in card selection that will support multiple theaters and archetypes. (ie, multi-purpose cards like Cryptic Command, Hybrid Cards like rakdos cackler, etc)
Don't ignore conventional cube wisdom, much of it still applies to micro cubes (removal, sufficient aggro support, fixing)
Properly support with flexible/versatile land and mana fixing
I agree with you both to prioritize cards based on theater/archetype synergy, however I'm not quick to decry "goodstuff" cards that are "too good to miss". There are often plenty of "good stuff" cards that are in all cubes b/c they rock. I would submit that the top 5-10 cards in each of the color ranking threads should likely be included because they're the best...however you get to choose the best...for example.
Black CIPT removal creatures. I've got 25 black card slots. I probably only have 2 to mayyyybe 3 slots for CIPT terror-on-a-stick.
How would you rank the following:
- Nekrataal
- Skinrenderer
- Bone Shredder
- Shriekmaw
I would rank them (but please share your opinion :D):
Shriekmaw - The card does so much so well, giving options and flexibility that beats the others. Dual-casting mode, single B in the casting cost is easier to cast, helps all theaters (control with evasive damage, midrange tempo by 2-1 tempo swinging, combo by helping stabilize, even an evasive aggro curve topper.
Skinrenderer - Ability to kill most creatures, not having an artifact/black limitation, relevant body, counter stick around. Good in aggro and midrange, not bad in control. Cons, might not kill everything.
Nekrataal - Kill-on-a-stick, but BB in the cost and 2 power brings its rank down
Bone Shredder - Small concentrated cubes seem too powerful for echo nowadays, and Shredder was never great for us (even with the 400 card cube)
I think this example does a good job of illustrating understanding your archtypes/theaters, their synergies, selecting cards based on flexibility.
I think I will have to try my hand at a separate, non-innistrad microcube before I can address some of your questions. I think what's funny too is that the 90 card selection process feels worlds different than were I to build a 190 card cube like yours, DrDrum. For instance, 10% of the cube being devoted to fixing seems totally appropriate and fine a cube as small as 180, but 9 cards out of the 90 spent on dual lands seems like waaaay too much real estate being eaten up in the smaller cube.
Late edit: I'm getting much better behavior out of cubetutor's AI using 5 packs of 9 cards, 1 bot.
I think I will have to try my hand at a separate, non-innistrad microcube before I can address some of your questions. I think what's funny too is that the 90 card selection process feels worlds different than were I to build a 190 card cube like yours, DrDrum. For instance, 10% of the cube being devoted to fixing seems totally appropriate and fine a cube as small as 180, but 9 cards out of the 90 spent on dual lands seems like waaaay too much real estate being eaten up in the smaller cube.
Late edit: I'm getting much better behavior out of cubetutor's AI using 5 packs of 9 cards, 1 bot.
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of your first paragraph, Dolono. I was running 7 land or artifact-based fixing cards in my 90-card cube and I felt it was...modest, akin to the kind of fixing you would expect to be available in a real draft environment. I've been testing out removing all the above mentioned fixing in favor of increasing the depth of the card pool for each color. To counter the lack of fixing, I've made 4 Evolving Wilds available to each player in deckbuilding. I'm not sure I like purposely sacrificing an element of drafting/deckbuilding to improve gameplay (who is to say it is even improving? Maybe you care about fixing, don't care about it, or want more than 4? It's a work in progress!), but we'll see how it pans out.
As for the second point, I agree. The AI still isn't perfect...there's no way I should be last-picking a Mulldrifter or Flametongue Kavu...but it is improved.
The goal is to have a small portable cube to take to tournaments with me and play in between rounds with friends that supports up to 4 players. Cards are meant to be as powerful as can be and support as many archetypes as possible similar to my normal 450 card cube. The only restriction for this travel cube is to limit the budget to no card above $20, so that I don't mind playing it in open spaces where card can potentially become lost. No pimping whatsoever whereas my main cube is completely pimped out. It is still plenty powerful and has alot of very cool synergies and archetypes and good color balance.
I just drafted your travel cube. Had to compare to DrDrum's boobie cube. Had a couple questions:
1) Do you find tokens being drafted over (more often than) other archetypes?
2) I find it interesting that black doesn't have a single instant-speed kill spell. Was there a reason for this?
EDIT: *snip*
Backup Plan in a 90 card budget peasant cube seems insanely overpowered. I've picked it over Moxen in a fully powered cube and didn't second guess it. I honestly think it's one of the top 10 overall cube cards, for any cube. It sticks out less in his cube as he has Sol Ring (which both seem insanely OP in a 180 cube when you aren't rocking the full power suite) but it's the card you first pick every time in a 90 card budget peasant cube and if you don't you've made a massive mistake.
Backup Plan in a 90 card budget peasant cube seems insanely overpowered. I've picked it over Moxen in a fully powered cube and didn't second guess it. I honestly think it's one of the top 10 overall cube cards, for any cube. It sticks out less in his cube as he has Sol Ring (which both seem insanely OP in a 180 cube when you aren't rocking the full power suite) but it's the card you first pick every time in a 90 card budget peasant cube and if you don't you've made a massive mistake.
Drafting a teeny cube...blah blah blah manabase stuff
There's an asterisk to drafting the current iteration of my cube on cubetutor, which isn't obvious if you're reaching it from my sig (but is if you accessed it from the main page of that cube). That asterisk is "*There are 4 Evolving Wilds available to EACH PLAYER in lieu of including fixing in the main cube" (as if they were available in the pile of basic lands for deckbuilding). It's something I'm testing currently.
How do you think you would have felt about your deck, knowing you should have had 4 Evolving Wilds in your mana base? While I find it much more comforting, it also makes me feel....icky. It's purposely removing one portion of the limited/deckbuilding experience in favor of gameplay. I'm not sold on it, but I'm looking for innovative ways to design such a small cube to have all the draftability and playability of a bigger cube.
I've seen others do a separate land draft, and I've never thought of doing land in a micro cube that way. However, I think they actually just had a second mini-draft, where there was a pack or two of lands that they drafted after the primary draft. Your opinion on drafting with no lands is interesting to me...icky is a fun word for it lol. I think I share a similar sentiment in some way, but I don't think having land available when deck building (or a separate land draft) is inherently wrong, but I agree it feels different. And perhaps that's why it feels odd, is that we're used to seeing lands in drafts, and "trying to decide between land and that 1-drop or bomb" presents a fun dynamic to drafting. Lack of land presence in the cube takes this away, and I sense an impact as well.
Regardless, it's clear fixing and mana is important for any cube, and micro cubes have taught us we need to get creative at times, and your approach isn't that far out in left field, I don't think. I'm not one to poop on innovation, 3rd power has commented a number of times that the best way to learn is to "try it out". On the contrary, I applaud the innovation, and yours is possibly an elegant way that streamlines the primary draft for such a small cube. This increases the percentage of on-color cards to choose from, and for a 1vs1 draft (especially as 15-card packs), that's a very good thing. Especially considering other "normal size" cubes have experimented with lands outside of the central draft...I'm interested to see how this goes, it seems a plausible way to accommodate the land question.
Is this something you feel you're "experimenting" with, or are you comfortable where it is?
I was thinking about this land thing last night, and I'm feeling that "there's more than one right way to do something" ought to be explicitly mentioned here. Micro cubing has taught me that creativity and flexibility is so important. H#ll, I've got hybrid cards counted as monocolored cards just to get more playables for aggro, which is not intuitive to standard cube design. While my cube has alot of fixing, I recognize that has to do with my playgroup (and the johnny's and timmies there) wanting to support 2 to 3 (to 5) color decks. As a spike, I'm happy to have better mana for stronger 2 decks, or being able to easily support splash-worthy bombs like balance, ancestral, goyf, etc. I'm perhaps on the higher end %age-wise of lands/fixing for the average cube...which is something I hadn't really mentioned. However, considering how I have the personal opinion that some cubes are under-landed, mine might be one or two over-landed as a compensation lol.
If you still want land in your drafting experience, what are you thoughts on adding a few of the 5 color lands to your cube? Perhaps 10 land would be too many, but perhaps a few (like City of Brass). The question (obviously) is what one would take out to accommodate a few lands. Notably the downside to evolving wilds type of cards is the comes into play tapped limitation...an aggro deck will be more interested in something like City or a Pain Land, whereas a control deck is more comfortable with a couple tapped lands.
Sorry for being too wordy :blush:, just digging the great discussion!
I'm interested in your (and other's) thoughts on the free-wilds approach.
I also thought of another possible commandment, but it might have an unintended effect on design...
* Prioritize ability-on-a-stick creatures over their instant counterparts to get double duty out of one card. Example: kor Sanctifiers > Disenchant.
Hmmm, I'm torn about providing free wilds at the end of the draft...
I ran my ravnica cube in a 9 person draft last year and, in a sudden attack of pre-draft anxiety, allowed everyone 3 free terramorphics during deck building. My rav cube is ~50% gold cards, which is a way higher percentage than any of the retail ravnica sets. I became terrified that if crazy levels of fixing weren't available, the draft would have been a failure. Practically every drafter used the 3 extra lands, and 3-4 color decks abounded. The winning-est deck that session landed up being a friend's hyper aggressive gruul deck, so go figure.
In the end, I don't think that giving folks access to free fixing in that way really benefitted the situation. It may have even alleviated the need for good mulliganing during the games.
I'll repeat a comment I posted on 6jerfz's cubetutor: I think keeping a small, odd number of fixing pieces is a benefit to the draft process, as the asymmetry of access creates additional pressures on the drafters, especially when there's just two players fighting over 3 wilds. "Do I grab a terramorphic expanse now, to help with fixing? Or do I grab that key deck piece immediately, before it gets stolen or hate drafted by the opponent?"
I'd say that the smaller the micro-cube, the fewer the number of fixing pieces that should be included, and the "Gold-er" that reduced number should be. In a 2 player specific cube, I'd even argue that fixing should be super light, and left more to mulliganing by the players. Since there's only two folks playing, just play again, or reset the match if someone gets utterly color screwed.
Addenda: Another conversation I had with 6jerfz; I think mana rocks should ideally be replaced with manadorks in micro-cubes. Part of that microcube philosophy of striving for lots of card flexibility: mana dorks can at least attack, carry equips, block, carry enchants, and possess relevant tribal key words besides just being mana producers. Access to dorks will likely be lopsided in green, but that's basically always been the case with cube and mtg.
Should we get this thread moved to the cards and archetypes section of the cube forum? That's where the multiplayer/edh cube thread that I participate in is. It may improve this threads visibility, assuming some folks just ignore the cube forum's front page.
Crap, is that the right place for this, oops ?
I'll pm a mod and ask where it should belong and to move it.
I don't have a ton of mana rocks (unless u include sol ring and moxen/lotus), but I still love me some chromatic lantern...it only "costs 2", and makes everything (including fetches) duals. Looking at my cube, I run 7 sources of green ramp, all of them make/find multiple colors or mana, 4 are creature based (note I don't play equipment, but do play rancor and hatred, so "pants" do matter slightly). Hmm, 7/25 of my green, 10 duals, 10 fetches, city, vesuva, ziggurat or whatever it's called, lantern, moxen, sol ring, lotus...I'm wondering if I have too much mana in my cube lol!
Regardless, how much of your colorless section do you feel you should dedicate to fixing?
I thought of an idea this week, but it could be some work...
I'm considering researching other "well established" cubes on salvation to see what % of a cube they're running for certain abilities/effects, like:
green ramp
burn
black removal
red one drops
etc
While I think this info would be interesting and helpful, I'm not sure how much work it'd be lol. But it'd be a good gauge to understand how much of ones cube a manager dedicates to a certain effect or archetype. While we know that we tweak some things for micro cubes in order to have more versatile cards, it could be a good start. It might not even be hard to do...ive created a spreadsheet with a column for cube size, and one for effect and percentage (# of cards / cube size). Perhaps I'll try it with green ramp and mana rocks, and see how it goes.
Please, during discussion, note or link to your cube size & design constraints (rarity, theme, etc).
Threads and discussions come up from time to time about smaller cubes, however they are somewhat infrequent. I suppose this is because there aren’t many micro cubes out there. That said, there’s been a bit more of micro discussion within the last year. And others have shared the difficulty in finding micro-cube info. Thus a thread seemed (to a few of us) a good method to discuss and capture.
As an aside, my group doesn't cube as often as most of you. Shoot, I myself am still trying to figure out better ways of micro-cubing, and wouldn't presume to be an expert. However, after IM's with other micro-thusiasts and other threads, I've started a thread for us to share our experiences, learnings, opinions and approaches.
I’ve had some interesting PMs with fellow MC’ers, and tossed together a list of some topics that could be discussed:
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
Micro-Cube Design Commandments
People's Micro-cubes
DrDRum's 190-card Old-school'ish, two person cube
6jerfz 90-card 2-Player, Budget Peasant "Travel" Cube
Dolono's 90-card innistrad-themed microcube.
SpEkKiO99's 180-card $20-card limit Travel Cube
Relevant Links
Comprehensive List of Cube Archtypes
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/193425-5-color-lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/547012-article-mana-short-a-study-in-limited-resource
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/archive/610373-power-rankings-2015-cube-power-rankings-land
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/578325-land-base-in-a-multicolour-heavy-cube
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
First, our micro cube:
Onto lands...
What lands to play? How many lands should one play in a micro cube? I've heard from third power, and others say 10-15% of your cube should be land...some say even more. With every single card-slot at a premium in a micro-cube, we clearly have to be picky on what we run, but I encourage you not to be stingy on the lands. IMHO, lands are the last place to make hard cuts in a shrinking cube. We've found in a micro cube, especially 1vs1, it's tough to make 2 color deck work (since you could see fewer cards depending on the draft format)...an extra relevant land can make ALL the difference in going from a 3 color deck to a 2 color deck...and even moreso if you're trying to properly support a 3 color deck or splash.
At 190, we ended up at 26 lands, initially felt a tad high for a 190-card cube. I do feel that lands are sometimes underrated and undersupported in cubes. After drafing others' cubes in the "draft the above persons cube" thread, I'm happier to draft too many land, than not enough. I'm famous in my group for ALWAYS drafting a land (or P8) P1P1.
I'm also drafting a post on ranking of lands, and which to include, but I thought this could get us started
Thoughts?
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
Regarding lands/fixing, its something I struggle with. Including lands dedicated to specific guilds means including lands to support all the guilds, which instantly gobbles up a lot of cube real estate. That's why I've opted for artifact fixing, in-color fixing, and generic fetches (Evolving Wilds, et al). Then again, I'm in a 90-card environment, so 10 lands would eat up over 10% of my pile and I can't justify that.
My philosophy for designing my microcube has been "general over specific". So the more generally applicable a card is across all colors/strategies, the better it will be for your cube design. The more archetypes and effects you can consolidate into one card, the better it will be for filling different roles in your cube.
Another way to approach fixing is to be careful of mana costs. If you have limited fixing, be careful of including 2-drops with double mana requirements or multicolor cards that aren't hybrids. This is where microcube design gets fun (to me anyway). Example: Choosing Seeker of the Way over Knight of Meadowgrain. While in a vacuum, Knight of Meadowgrain is probably the better card, the fact that it has a WW mana cost makes it that much harder to cast in this cube, pushing Seeker of the Way over the top.
It still remains to be seen if a non-land fixing strategy is viable for micro-cubing, but if you think about it from a non-cube draft point of view, fixing is usually pretty limited anyway. Access to a single Evolving Wilds might be the only fixing you get in a draft. Because 360+ cubers get sort of spoiled with dual lands, fetches, etc, it becomes a compulsion to include them in cube lists--sort of "keeping to the style in which they have been accustomed".
@DrDrum: We come up with the Ten Commandments of Microcube Design? That sounds like an awesome exercise to me and would give us talking points.
Based on 6jerfz's recent cube list, I was inspired to put together a 90-card innistrad-themed microcube. Here were some of the topics my friends and I mulled over as we brainstormed its contents:
1. I'm sure this was intentional, but SOI's cross-color madness mechanic blends very, very well with old innistrad's flashback. The same ally-colored tribes are also present, meaning that there are a lot of axis to work off of when picking cards for each color and archetype. It was important to me that any given card would have some relevant tribal or mechanical key word, allowing it to occupy different roles in different decks.
1b. I think a micro-cube should strive to be more synergy and engine-based than a pure good stuff. Synergies and interactions will speed the process of color/archetype differentiation between the two players. It seems important to establish this early in the micro-draft.
2. My brainstorming partner and I wanted to represent all ten guilds in the cube. Innistrad facilitated this nicely with powerful and interesting off-color flashback and activated abilities. Even if one of these cards isn't in your primary or secondary color, chances are that you can get some basic utility out of it, or a from-the-graveyard boost.
3. Balancing power across the colors and rarities has been a fun challenge so far. My group and I think that cards normally classified as "bombs" should be excluded from micro-cubes; they swing games too much, and are a frequent temptation to hate draft.
4. It was tempting at first to jam a ton of 1-drops into the cube's first design draft. It became evident pretty quick though that cheap 1-drop creatures would quickly get outclassed cards played later in the draft. The cube's overall CMC should probably skew more towards 2, 3, and 4 drops, with just a smattering of cards at 5+.
5. My group opted for a very small colorless section - 5 cards, 3 of which were evolving wilds. I orginally was planning to include a cycle of alara/tarkir tri lands, but it just seemed like too much space would be wasted.
6. I'm looking forward to eldrich moon, as a way to round off some of the cube's rough edges! Limiting myself to just innistrad cards has been a good way to keep a tight focus on theme and consistent power level.
7. I've got 3x khans and 3x theros draft sims collecting dust, and have been considering scrapping them for micro-cube fodder. Unfortunately, I don't think that either set has the same level of internal consistency and inter-related card mechanics as innistrad's madness and flashback. I'm curious if there are any other blocks out there that would work as well as a micro cube.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
3) I had the same feeling with including "bombs", but rather than disincluding them, I made sure the omg-pick-this-right-now cards were balanced between colors. They give focus to your draft. That's my experience anyway. If I notice one is being drafted more than others and it is too polarizing, it gets the ax. So, it is a bit of a sticking point when designing your pile.
4) I had this issue and I've slowly been chipping away at it. I was frequently drafting decks with a curve centered around 2. Then again, I cost cards with evoke, cycling, etc at their ability cost, not at their CMC, so that could also contribute a bit to that.
5) Let us know how this works out. The colorless section, for me anyway, has been a great way to glue decks together. You have creatures, utility cards, fixing, etc that can literally be played in any deck. I have just as many colorless (or more) as I do in any individual color in my cube. You might want to test upping that amount.
I'm stoked that other people are getting down on the micro-cube! Keep the updates coming
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
6jerfz, has your AI's behavior improved at all since you've been mock-drafting? You seem to have quite a few drafts/decks logged now.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
The joys of working in an office haha
To answer your question, no, it really hasn't.
But…before moving on to that, I did some followup on land here it is before I lose it lol. I've heard third power (and others) say 10-15% of your cube should be land. Rarely do you see people rank the best lands, you just run them (in normal cubes). I'ts usually more like "well, after duals and fetches, run man-lands or pain/check lands". Most “small to medium” sized cubes run duals, fetches, tap lands/pain lands/check lands, man lands, and/or great utility lands. While we all know those are the best of the best for normal cubes, once must be really selective in micro cubes, since we can't run 40 great lands.
Here are some good land threads that came up in a search:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/193425-5-color-lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/articles-podcasts-and-guides/547012-article-mana-short-a-study-in-limited-resource
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/archive/610373-power-rankings-2015-cube-power-rankings-land
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/578325-land-base-in-a-multicolour-heavy-cube
At 180-ish, here's my personal opinion on no-limitation ranking:
1) ABUR Duals: I'm of the opinion that every cube (budget allowing) should run the ABUR duals, at a minimum. They're the best, period.
2) Library of Alexandria: I pick this over Sol Ring, but its oft debated. Again, budget allowing.
3) City of Brass/Mana Confluence/Grand Colosseum: Best 5-color fixing.
4) Fetches: Decks and duals naturally become better with fetches, as well other cards (Brainstorm, Top, etc)...so we made that happen.
5) Strip Mine: The best land killer.
Its either obvious or has been repeated often enough, but flexibility & efficiency are clutch when we make a micro cube…a card’s flexibility and versatility will increase its value the smaller a cube gets. While I quite like how duals/fetches and 5-color utility lands have worked in my cube, once you get smaller than 180-ish, one must (IMHO) consider the most efficient and flexible lands that can meet the needs of your cube, in as-few-a-cards-as-possible. Below 150, I’m not sure you can run duals & fetches, as 20 cards is a significant portion of your cube. But I'd still consider running the original duals in any (yes any) sized micro cube...and I don't make that comment lightly. Lands are just sooooo important, and at really small cube sizes where you're doing packs with fewer people, you need to be able to support the splash in case you don't get down to 2 colors. Beyond this, I’d consider and run as many 5-color, or universally fixing lands as possible. Here’s a stab at the most flexible multi-color lands:
Top-tier 5-color Lands
City of Brass / Mana Confluence : Seem like the best fixing 5 color lands.
Copy Lands: Lands that make a copy of lands you have in play (like Reflecting Pool) can automatically become the complimentary dual of whatever your two colors are.
Gemstone Mine: Comes into play untapped, and can help get you to 4-5mana before it checks out. I’d probably only count it as a 0.5 land during deck building, though.
Vivid Lands: Easy to splash, and fix rather well. Unfortunately they come into play tapped, but being able to make any mana without hindering the primary color offers great flexibility.
Basic Fetches: Lands like evolving wilds are good, but I’ve not tried them personally. Getting any basic you need can’t be a bad thing, and they don’t take up a lot of room.
At 190, we ended up at 26 lands, which first felt a tad high for a 190-card cube...in practice it feels very right. I do feel that lands are underrated and undersupported in some cubes. After drafing others' cubes in the "draft the above persons cube" thread, I'm happier to draft too many land, than not enough. I'm famous in my group for ALWAYS drafting a land (or P8) P1P1.
Original Duals (10)
Fetches (10)
Library of Alexandria
Strip Mine (Wasteland was cut)
City of Brass
We also play these Timmy/Johnny-friendly lands, which you may/may not desire:
Vesuva (all our lands are great to copy)
Thran Quarry (Better than city for aggro)
Diamond Valley (Johnny friendly)
These lands are next tier, and if you have design/budget constraints may be worth considering. Beyond limitations, I don’t believe they make the cut:
Dual color man lands: Ie. Celestial Colonnade. I'd rather have duals and fetches, however, we've learned flexibility trumps all others when it comes to micro cubes. In normal cubes, pain lands might probably rank higher, but the flexibility of making mana and a dude is hard to argue with.
Wasteland: I feel micro cubes might have room for only 1 land destruction land, Strip Mine is better.
On color man-lands: Ie Fairie Conclave. I'd categorize these as colored cards, not lands, but when micro-cubes have 15-30 cards per color, I doubt there is room for these...however, again, flexibility and versatility make them worth considering.
Lands insufficiently awesome for micro cubes (budget concerns notwithstanding):
Pain Lands
CIPT (non-man) lands
Bounce Lands
Regarding the Cube Tutor drafting, I've drafted my cube on there ALOT...and I feel like it dose a pretty decent job. However, someone recommended a while back to draft 5 packs of 9, with 3 bots. I remember it improving the drafting experience. Not sure for a 90 card, so this won't work that small.
EDIT: I also started populating the links post (post #2) of this thread. Anyone has links, lemme' know
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
A few "design commandments" I could propose off the top of my head. I think each of these should get some discussion
I agree with you both to prioritize cards based on theater/archetype synergy, however I'm not quick to decry "goodstuff" cards that are "too good to miss". There are often plenty of "good stuff" cards that are in all cubes b/c they rock. I would submit that the top 5-10 cards in each of the color ranking threads should likely be included because they're the best...however you get to choose the best...for example.
Black CIPT removal creatures. I've got 25 black card slots. I probably only have 2 to mayyyybe 3 slots for CIPT terror-on-a-stick.
How would you rank the following:
- Nekrataal
- Skinrenderer
- Bone Shredder
- Shriekmaw
I would rank them (but please share your opinion :D):
I think this example does a good job of illustrating understanding your archtypes/theaters, their synergies, selecting cards based on flexibility.
Thoughts?
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
Late edit: I'm getting much better behavior out of cubetutor's AI using 5 packs of 9 cards, 1 bot.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of your first paragraph, Dolono. I was running 7 land or artifact-based fixing cards in my 90-card cube and I felt it was...modest, akin to the kind of fixing you would expect to be available in a real draft environment. I've been testing out removing all the above mentioned fixing in favor of increasing the depth of the card pool for each color. To counter the lack of fixing, I've made 4 Evolving Wilds available to each player in deckbuilding. I'm not sure I like purposely sacrificing an element of drafting/deckbuilding to improve gameplay (who is to say it is even improving? Maybe you care about fixing, don't care about it, or want more than 4? It's a work in progress!), but we'll see how it pans out.
As for the second point, I agree. The AI still isn't perfect...there's no way I should be last-picking a Mulldrifter or Flametongue Kavu...but it is improved.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/15268
The goal is to have a small portable cube to take to tournaments with me and play in between rounds with friends that supports up to 4 players. Cards are meant to be as powerful as can be and support as many archetypes as possible similar to my normal 450 card cube. The only restriction for this travel cube is to limit the budget to no card above $20, so that I don't mind playing it in open spaces where card can potentially become lost. No pimping whatsoever whereas my main cube is completely pimped out. It is still plenty powerful and has alot of very cool synergies and archetypes and good color balance.
1) Do you find tokens being drafted over (more often than) other archetypes?
2) I find it interesting that black doesn't have a single instant-speed kill spell. Was there a reason for this?
EDIT: *snip*
Also, it's a rare
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Haha my bad
I've seen others do a separate land draft, and I've never thought of doing land in a micro cube that way. However, I think they actually just had a second mini-draft, where there was a pack or two of lands that they drafted after the primary draft. Your opinion on drafting with no lands is interesting to me...icky is a fun word for it lol. I think I share a similar sentiment in some way, but I don't think having land available when deck building (or a separate land draft) is inherently wrong, but I agree it feels different. And perhaps that's why it feels odd, is that we're used to seeing lands in drafts, and "trying to decide between land and that 1-drop or bomb" presents a fun dynamic to drafting. Lack of land presence in the cube takes this away, and I sense an impact as well.
Regardless, it's clear fixing and mana is important for any cube, and micro cubes have taught us we need to get creative at times, and your approach isn't that far out in left field, I don't think. I'm not one to poop on innovation, 3rd power has commented a number of times that the best way to learn is to "try it out". On the contrary, I applaud the innovation, and yours is possibly an elegant way that streamlines the primary draft for such a small cube. This increases the percentage of on-color cards to choose from, and for a 1vs1 draft (especially as 15-card packs), that's a very good thing. Especially considering other "normal size" cubes have experimented with lands outside of the central draft...I'm interested to see how this goes, it seems a plausible way to accommodate the land question.
Is this something you feel you're "experimenting" with, or are you comfortable where it is?
I was thinking about this land thing last night, and I'm feeling that "there's more than one right way to do something" ought to be explicitly mentioned here. Micro cubing has taught me that creativity and flexibility is so important. H#ll, I've got hybrid cards counted as monocolored cards just to get more playables for aggro, which is not intuitive to standard cube design. While my cube has alot of fixing, I recognize that has to do with my playgroup (and the johnny's and timmies there) wanting to support 2 to 3 (to 5) color decks. As a spike, I'm happy to have better mana for stronger 2 decks, or being able to easily support splash-worthy bombs like balance, ancestral, goyf, etc. I'm perhaps on the higher end %age-wise of lands/fixing for the average cube...which is something I hadn't really mentioned. However, considering how I have the personal opinion that some cubes are under-landed, mine might be one or two over-landed as a compensation lol.
If you still want land in your drafting experience, what are you thoughts on adding a few of the 5 color lands to your cube? Perhaps 10 land would be too many, but perhaps a few (like City of Brass). The question (obviously) is what one would take out to accommodate a few lands. Notably the downside to evolving wilds type of cards is the comes into play tapped limitation...an aggro deck will be more interested in something like City or a Pain Land, whereas a control deck is more comfortable with a couple tapped lands.
Beyond the lands I mentioned above, artifact fixing is also relevant...Chromatic Lantern is a first pick in our cube, and Mox Diamond isn't far from the top. Prismatic Lens, Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot seem good too. Artifact mana is probably another post, though...
Sorry for being too wordy :blush:, just digging the great discussion!
I'm interested in your (and other's) thoughts on the free-wilds approach.
I also thought of another possible commandment, but it might have an unintended effect on design...
* Prioritize ability-on-a-stick creatures over their instant counterparts to get double duty out of one card. Example: kor Sanctifiers > Disenchant.
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass
I ran my ravnica cube in a 9 person draft last year and, in a sudden attack of pre-draft anxiety, allowed everyone 3 free terramorphics during deck building. My rav cube is ~50% gold cards, which is a way higher percentage than any of the retail ravnica sets. I became terrified that if crazy levels of fixing weren't available, the draft would have been a failure. Practically every drafter used the 3 extra lands, and 3-4 color decks abounded. The winning-est deck that session landed up being a friend's hyper aggressive gruul deck, so go figure.
In the end, I don't think that giving folks access to free fixing in that way really benefitted the situation. It may have even alleviated the need for good mulliganing during the games.
I'll repeat a comment I posted on 6jerfz's cubetutor: I think keeping a small, odd number of fixing pieces is a benefit to the draft process, as the asymmetry of access creates additional pressures on the drafters, especially when there's just two players fighting over 3 wilds. "Do I grab a terramorphic expanse now, to help with fixing? Or do I grab that key deck piece immediately, before it gets stolen or hate drafted by the opponent?"
I'd say that the smaller the micro-cube, the fewer the number of fixing pieces that should be included, and the "Gold-er" that reduced number should be. In a 2 player specific cube, I'd even argue that fixing should be super light, and left more to mulliganing by the players. Since there's only two folks playing, just play again, or reset the match if someone gets utterly color screwed.
Addenda: Another conversation I had with 6jerfz; I think mana rocks should ideally be replaced with mana dorks in micro-cubes. Part of that microcube philosophy of striving for lots of card flexibility: mana dorks can at least attack, carry equips, block, carry enchants, and possess relevant tribal key words besides just being mana producers. Access to dorks will likely be lopsided in green, but that's basically always been the case with cube and mtg.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
-D
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I'll pm a mod and ask where it should belong and to move it.
I don't have a ton of mana rocks (unless u include sol ring and moxen/lotus), but I still love me some chromatic lantern...it only "costs 2", and makes everything (including fetches) duals. Looking at my cube, I run 7 sources of green ramp, all of them make/find multiple colors or mana, 4 are creature based (note I don't play equipment, but do play rancor and hatred, so "pants" do matter slightly). Hmm, 7/25 of my green, 10 duals, 10 fetches, city, vesuva, ziggurat or whatever it's called, lantern, moxen, sol ring, lotus...I'm wondering if I have too much mana in my cube lol!
Regardless, how much of your colorless section do you feel you should dedicate to fixing?
I thought of an idea this week, but it could be some work...
I'm considering researching other "well established" cubes on salvation to see what % of a cube they're running for certain abilities/effects, like:
While I think this info would be interesting and helpful, I'm not sure how much work it'd be lol. But it'd be a good gauge to understand how much of ones cube a manager dedicates to a certain effect or archetype. While we know that we tweak some things for micro cubes in order to have more versatile cards, it could be a good start. It might not even be hard to do...ive created a spreadsheet with a column for cube size, and one for effect and percentage (# of cards / cube size). Perhaps I'll try it with green ramp and mana rocks, and see how it goes.
Old school group, sometimes more beer than cards. Revised thru Tempest block (and a little of Urza), sorry if I don't know all the new cards
Ye' Olde Schoole Casual Decks: BUReanimate -- GRAggro -- BWPestilence -- G10-land Stompy -- GRElfball -- GWEnchantress -- RAnkh Sligh -- BDiscard -- MUC "Draw-go" -- BRSuicide -- UWSkies -- UHigh Tide Mill -- WWeenie -- UMutated Bombers -- URThe great land-toss -- UB Molasass