I don't outright doubt statistics. All scientifically performed statistics aren't true, though most statistics are explained with missing context.
I truly think that there are no grave health risks to being overweight in and of itself. And being overweight is not a problem.
I am talking about simply being overweight - not obesity. I mean 20 or 30 pounds overweight - not 50 or 60. Obesity is a problem because the fat is in such excess that it clogs arteries and stresses organs.
I often think that it's a matter of correlation vs. causation. Some people aren't healthy. And that isn't because they are overweight, but because they neglect their body overall.
I'm NOT saying being overweight (while still taking care of the body overall) is the most ideal or best state of health. It isn't. But it is better than being skinny and having a low calorie diet of Diet Coke and low fat ice cream.
Your fat is only determined by the amount of calories you eat (relative to how many you expend per day). It does not determine the QUALITY of the food you eat. Which is my point.
I'm truly hoping to have a genuine discussion and I'd like to know your opinion on this. Whether you think I'm right or if I'm missing something.
Being overweight is bad for you. For one thing, you place greater demands on your various joints and musculature that naturally wear down over time. This means more potential of bone and related issues down the line. Please note that I mean overweight. Not fat. Overweight.
Now, there is a great deal of difference between being overweight due to more lean body mass and fat. Lean body mass will, to a point, help you move your greater mass for your height/body frame. Fat will not.
And if you truly believe 20-30lb of additional useless weight is not harmful, try putting on a backpack weighed down by 20-30 lb. Now, imagine yourself walking with that weight on permanently. While your legs and body does adjust to greater amounts of weight, it still bears down on you. Especially if it's not lean mass.
This being all said, what ppl should be striving for is being fit, not lean or skinny. Being skinny has its own set of issues, some worse than being overweight.
People should be setting fitness goals for themselves, not weight goals.
Normally proportioned people should be able to jog a 10 min mile, and lift at least their bw off the ground without issue. If you cannot do either, then you're probably not fit.
Yes, being overweight is bad. There isn't a magical gate between overweight and obese that makes one significantly more unhealthy. like autism, there's a spectrum. the further you are on either side, over or underweight the worse it is for you. but really severely underweight people aren't underweight because of their own poor choices (malnourishment, psychiatric illness, etc) whereas with overweight people they can only really shift the blame off of themselves in very very rare cases.
Being overweight is unhealthy, and you're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. The more overweight you are, the worse it is for your health.
Please note that I mean overweight. Not fat. Overweight.
Well dude I'm considered significantly overweight but i'm very fit and strong and extremely healthy. i'm meticulous about my diet and exercise program. My joints are absolutely fine and i'm not even using deca yet. If you're overweight but healthy your body will be able to compensate because the extra mass is functional muscle instead of... semifunctional... fat.
I go to the gym 3-5 times a week. I've never been fat and aim to never be fat. It's personal preference, natural eating and exercise habit, and genes. I'm so sexy, so sexy all day *caresses muscles*
There are many studies that being a fat person increases all chances of death in many ways.
Well dude I'm considered significantly overweight but i'm very fit and strong and extremely healthy. i'm meticulous about my diet and exercise program. My joints are absolutely fine and i'm not even using deca yet. If you're overweight but healthy your body will be able to compensate because the extra mass is functional muscle instead of... semifunctional... fat.
well i tried, guys.
Uh, I did say that. In the paragraph rigt below.
Besides, I'm of the opinion that medical definition of appropriate bw for height/frame is wrong.
For example, I am 5ft 7inches. I believe my bw is supposed to be 150-155ish. I think that's way too low to be fit. I personally plan to get to 165ish.
But anything beyond 175-180 would start going into overweight territory.
There is a limit to how much weight your body can have for its height.
Unless you're a pure bodybuilder and don't run or walk or do anything strenuous besides lifting a lot of weight.
No, being a pound overweight is not the same as being three-hundred pounds overweight, but every pound increases your likelihood of cardiovascular disease, respiratory problems, high cholesterol, stroke, and significant joint injury. These definitions aren't arbitrarily chosen; the correlation between amount overweight and these diseases is so strong as to rule out any possibility of mere accidental correlation.
You have an idea of the "ideal" body type, but that type isn't biologically determined, it's culturally conditioned, given to you by a society which has historically had high levels of obesity. The combination of a modern (post-industrial, and indeed post-agricultural) diet and the modern extreme availability of food make it amazingly easy to be overweight, and so most people are; that doesn't make it any less unhealthy.
Think about the setting in which humanity evolved. We lived in sparsely forested savannah, foraging for food and occasionally having meat from prey animals or from scavenging. We would be forced to move over a wide range of land in order to meet our daily caloric needs, and would have to work reasonably hard for it. This is why you rarely see obesity among hunter-gatherer peoples; and when you control for disease and sanitation, they actually live dramatically healthier lives than an average (slightly overweight) Westerner. That's not because their diet has something magical about it; it's because their lifestyle forces them to stay healthy.
If you're overweight, do something about it, even if you're skeptical. Your twilight years will thank you.
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or half asleep:
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Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Yes, being overweight is bad. There isn't a magical gate between overweight and obese that makes one significantly more unhealthy. like autism, there's a spectrum. the further you are on either side, over or underweight the worse it is for you. ...
Being overweight is unhealthy, and you're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. The more overweight you are, the worse it is for your health.
That's my point though. There is no one point where excess weight goes from inconsequential to really unhealthy.
There is no doubt that being at normal weight and normal body fat percentage is better than being at excess body weight or body fat percentage. There is no justification need for that.
My point is simply that, to a reasonable extent, what your calories are from matter more than how many calories you have.
A 3000 calorie diet of natural unprocessed food (which supplies all nutrients needed) is better than an 1800 calorie diet (with very little nutrients) of processed food loaded with sugar and sodium.
I think the physical state of being overweight (not just someone who's bulky and works out regularly) is a symptom of unhealthiness, but not an outright measure. There are guys I know who are overweight but fit like hell. They run 10KM each day, workout, but no matter what, remain stocky. I also know a few guys who eat like crap and drink like a sailor and they look perfectly "fine". They're the exceptions though. In general, being overweight is generally seen as bad because it's a symptom of other bad things: poor diet, poor exercise, and poor habits. It's not outright bad, but the things that lead to it and the things that people judge others for contribute to that state of being.
I think the physical state of being overweight (not just someone who's bulky and works out regularly) is a symptom of unhealthiness, but not an outright measure. There are guys I know who are overweight but fit like hell. They run 10KM each day, workout, but no matter what, remain stocky. I also know a few guys who eat like crap and drink like a sailor and they look perfectly "fine". They're the exceptions though. In general, being overweight is generally seen as bad because it's a symptom of other bad things: poor diet, poor exercise, and poor habits. It's not outright bad, but the things that lead to it and the things that people judge others for contribute to that state of being.
If you have a little bit of a jelly belly its fine. You can still be healthy with no negative side effects. Being overweight and still active is a good thing and there is a major difference between carrying a healthy weight and being a dough boy. I've never been skinny skinny and I don't really think I"ve ever had a desire to be. Fit is a good thing to be. There is a balance that needs to be kept. Don't weight 300lbs but at the same time if your a guy and over 5'5 don't ever weight under 130.
If you feel good and can run a mile then it doesn't really matter if your belly jiggles a little.
its a good thing if you want to die earlier lol, but yeah its generally cut a few years off your life. But i guess you can chose to be fat, and if you like it then its not such a bad thing.
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its a good thing if you want to die earlier lol, but yeah its generally cut a few years off your life. But i guess you can chose to be fat, and if you like it then its not such a bad thing.
I think you're misunderstanding what a lot of people are saying when they say its okay to be a few lbs over weight. There is litterally 0 difference if your 15 lbs over weight to not at all. Everyone's body shape is also different and some people are naturally stockey. I would never advocate to attempt to be fat but if your a size 36 I wouldn't really sweat it.
For example, I am six foot one and I weigh 220 pounds.
If we're going by BMI, you are 8 pounds away from what is considered obese.
Note that BMI does not take into account the differences between fat and muscle, but by your own admission, you got some fat on you. And the answer is yes, having large amounts of excess fat is not healthy.
But you seem dedicated to losing it, and you're not that much overweight, so you should be fine.
A 3000 calorie diet of natural unprocessed food (which supplies all nutrients needed) is better than an 1800 calorie diet (with very little nutrients) of processed food loaded with sugar and sodium.
Both are profoundly unhealthy, just in different ways. "Natural and unprocessed" doesn't magically make the negatives go away.
I think you're misunderstanding what a lot of people are saying when they say its okay to be a few lbs over weight. There is litterally 0 difference if your 15 lbs over weight to not at all. Everyone's body shape is also different and some people are naturally stockey. I would never advocate to attempt to be fat but if your a size 36 I wouldn't really sweat it.
The effects of being slightly overweight are small but statistically significant. There is, in fact, a significant health difference.
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nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
People just need not worry about other people's poor life choices. I'm not going to lie and say I'm skinny, because I'm not. But, among my co workers, friends and my family I'm breaking the norm for not being so fat that I have to shop at special clothing stores or worry about not being able to ride a roller coaster because the harness won't fit over me.
I don't think it's your problem. I think you're thinking to much about this and I think that you're not even close to overweight. If you go by what doctors say you should weight at X height then you're just plain doing it wrong. These are the same people who want to deny you of high protein diets, energy loaded saturated fats and flat out comfort food that makes you feel GOOD and not like you're doing what society thinks you should. As long as you're not so fat it's a serious health risk there is absolutely nothing wrong with being overweight. There was a time in history where it was deemed attractive and a status symbol.
Eating healthy is hard. Not to mention the fact of how near impossible it is for people who work 50-70 hrs a week to actually lose weight/maintain a healthy diet. Lack of sleep, fast food because there's no time for anything else and if you're so fortunate as to have a desk job or something similarly labor light then what are your options other than crash diets or borderline eating disorders?
I hate the obsession people have with their bodies and the way they view others as inferior for not being what society deems fit. As someone who's struggled through eating disorders his entire life I can honestly say now that I'm better that what you think is skinny and hot I think is frail and weak and if you press this on others you're perpetuating this stereotype and need to take a good hard look at yourself.
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I think % body fat is more importantant to watch than straight bmi. I have a large frame too (encircle your thumb and middle finger around your other wrist to get a general idea. if you barely touch you're medium frame).
For me to get prefered rate insurance based on BMI I would have to be under the weight where I was a gym rat in college working out 5 days and running 10 miles a week. My wife saw the pics and she said I was extremely skinny in those pics despite the nice abs.
I know regardless of fat index that people with a higher BMI are more likely to have joint issues and things like that, but you can't really do much about your skelatal structure and I'm not really sure you would want to weaken it if you could.
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yeah, i didn't articulate the first post as well as i should of.
i'm not saying it's necessary to be overweight.
i meant to say that overweight or not overweight is not a litmus-test barometer of health.
- bmi doesn't account for muscle
- bfp or weight doesn't account for nutrition levels in blood
- bfp doesn't necessarily mean a person doesn't take care of their health overall
yeah, i didn't articulate the first post as well as i should of.
i'm not saying it's necessary to be overweight.
i meant to say that overweight or not overweight is not a litmus-test barometer of health.
Depends on what the weight is, and how much of it. If it's fat, then that is not desirable. If it's muscle then it may or may not be desirable depending on how much muscle and how you're going about bulking up.
Honestly, if you have questions about your health or how to healthily lose/gain weight, the best person to talk to is your physician. Even if we were all experts on the subject, we wouldn't know your case specifically.
Being underweight is just as bad as being overweight. The difference is that what most people perceive as 'underweight' (since many people in america are overweight) is actually healthy weight.
For example, I'm 6'2. I'm called skinny constantly, but my BMI* is a little under 21. I would have to weight less than 145 to be considered underweight, and that's just crazy to me, completely impossible to achieve even if I wanted to.
Make no mistake, being unhealthy is a bad thing. Usually being overweight means you are unhealthy. There are some people that BMI would classify as overweight and do a sport like wrestling, or particpate in powerlifting, or can do two dozen pull-ups. Those people are healthy, but they are definitely corner cases. If you are sedentary (:o) and overweight, you are most likely unhealthy.
*BMI isn't a great mechanic but it's easier than using BF% because few know theirs.
I would talk to a nutrition over a physician for your diet. Usually they concur, but some older doctors (40+) never had to take any nutrition classes in med school.
A 3000 calorie diet of natural unprocessed food (which supplies all nutrients needed) is better than an 1800 calorie diet (with very little nutrients) of processed food loaded with sugar and sodium.
It depends on what your caloric maintenance level is, but most likely both are unhealthy.
Eating healthy is hard. Not to mention the fact of how near impossible it is for people who work 50-70 hrs a week to actually lose weight/maintain a healthy diet. Lack of sleep, fast food because there's no time for anything else and if you're so fortunate as to have a desk job or something similarly labor light then what are your options other than crash diets or borderline eating disorders?
At this point in my life I just can't agree with that. I'm currently working two jobs, balancing 2 very time consuming hobbies, and making time for the significant other/friends/family... And my diet is meticulous and damn close to perfect. (I say as I stuff a brownie down my face. God damn you had to catch me on my cheat day.)
But anyway. I find that eating fast food takes more effort than eating healthy... For the same amount of time and less money you could buy a head of broccoli, wash it off and enjoy. Same with some carrots, etc etc. Grilled chicken is very easy to come by and is one of the healthiest things you can eat. (Even though I much prefer turkey and it's just as healthy if not more, it takes a bit more effort to locate.)
5 years ago I would have agreed with you that eating healthy is hard, but now I can't agree. I'd say that eating unhealthy is hard once you've become health conscious and decided to live a healthier life.
It's definitely easier to eat healthy. I mean come on, how hard is it to open a bag of (premixed!) salad and dump it in a bowl? Or go grab a bag of carrots/celery/misc. fruit. Going to a fast food place requires you to drive there, wait in line, order, wait for your food.... (if you eat salad, make sure you skip the dressing, because that completely defeats the purpose of eating salad. Plus, that is one less thing you have to put on.)
As far as the other argument that eating healthy is more expensive, I completely disagree. Sure, you will have to eat fruits and veggies pretty much all day in order to get your daily fiber, but a simple meal at McD's can easily cost over $6. And that's for the small meal!
Both are profoundly unhealthy, just in different ways. "Natural and unprocessed" doesn't magically make the negatives go away.
Thank you - this is a MAJOR problem in the United States today, in that people somehow think that 'natural' products are healthier (when in many cases they are not, especially when you start talking about unpasteurized liquids).
The effects of being slightly overweight are small but statistically significant. There is, in fact, a significant health difference.
True, but in terms of average life expectancy, there isn't much difference. Without extreme factors (like flat out morbid obesity), all the recent studies say it comes down to genetics - some people are just predetermined to live longer, and even taking very little care of themselves they'll outlive an athlete who is genetically predisposed to heart disease.
I truly think that there are no grave health risks to being overweight in and of itself. And being overweight is not a problem.
I am talking about simply being overweight - not obesity. I mean 20 or 30 pounds overweight - not 50 or 60. Obesity is a problem because the fat is in such excess that it clogs arteries and stresses organs.
I often think that it's a matter of correlation vs. causation. Some people aren't healthy. And that isn't because they are overweight, but because they neglect their body overall.
I'm NOT saying being overweight (while still taking care of the body overall) is the most ideal or best state of health. It isn't. But it is better than being skinny and having a low calorie diet of Diet Coke and low fat ice cream.
Your fat is only determined by the amount of calories you eat (relative to how many you expend per day). It does not determine the QUALITY of the food you eat. Which is my point.
I'm truly hoping to have a genuine discussion and I'd like to know your opinion on this. Whether you think I'm right or if I'm missing something.
Now, there is a great deal of difference between being overweight due to more lean body mass and fat. Lean body mass will, to a point, help you move your greater mass for your height/body frame. Fat will not.
And if you truly believe 20-30lb of additional useless weight is not harmful, try putting on a backpack weighed down by 20-30 lb. Now, imagine yourself walking with that weight on permanently. While your legs and body does adjust to greater amounts of weight, it still bears down on you. Especially if it's not lean mass.
This being all said, what ppl should be striving for is being fit, not lean or skinny. Being skinny has its own set of issues, some worse than being overweight.
People should be setting fitness goals for themselves, not weight goals.
Normally proportioned people should be able to jog a 10 min mile, and lift at least their bw off the ground without issue. If you cannot do either, then you're probably not fit.
Being overweight is unhealthy, and you're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. The more overweight you are, the worse it is for your health.
Well dude I'm considered significantly overweight but i'm very fit and strong and extremely healthy. i'm meticulous about my diet and exercise program. My joints are absolutely fine and i'm not even using deca yet. If you're overweight but healthy your body will be able to compensate because the extra mass is functional muscle instead of... semifunctional... fat.
well i tried, guys.
There are many studies that being a fat person increases all chances of death in many ways.
Uh, I did say that. In the paragraph rigt below.
Besides, I'm of the opinion that medical definition of appropriate bw for height/frame is wrong.
For example, I am 5ft 7inches. I believe my bw is supposed to be 150-155ish. I think that's way too low to be fit. I personally plan to get to 165ish.
But anything beyond 175-180 would start going into overweight territory.
There is a limit to how much weight your body can have for its height.
Unless you're a pure bodybuilder and don't run or walk or do anything strenuous besides lifting a lot of weight.
No, being a pound overweight is not the same as being three-hundred pounds overweight, but every pound increases your likelihood of cardiovascular disease, respiratory problems, high cholesterol, stroke, and significant joint injury. These definitions aren't arbitrarily chosen; the correlation between amount overweight and these diseases is so strong as to rule out any possibility of mere accidental correlation.
You have an idea of the "ideal" body type, but that type isn't biologically determined, it's culturally conditioned, given to you by a society which has historically had high levels of obesity. The combination of a modern (post-industrial, and indeed post-agricultural) diet and the modern extreme availability of food make it amazingly easy to be overweight, and so most people are; that doesn't make it any less unhealthy.
Think about the setting in which humanity evolved. We lived in sparsely forested savannah, foraging for food and occasionally having meat from prey animals or from scavenging. We would be forced to move over a wide range of land in order to meet our daily caloric needs, and would have to work reasonably hard for it. This is why you rarely see obesity among hunter-gatherer peoples; and when you control for disease and sanitation, they actually live dramatically healthier lives than an average (slightly overweight) Westerner. That's not because their diet has something magical about it; it's because their lifestyle forces them to stay healthy.
If you're overweight, do something about it, even if you're skeptical. Your twilight years will thank you.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Oh lol, when I quoted you the paragraph broke off abruptly.
That's my point though. There is no one point where excess weight goes from inconsequential to really unhealthy.
There is no doubt that being at normal weight and normal body fat percentage is better than being at excess body weight or body fat percentage. There is no justification need for that.
My point is simply that, to a reasonable extent, what your calories are from matter more than how many calories you have.
A 3000 calorie diet of natural unprocessed food (which supplies all nutrients needed) is better than an 1800 calorie diet (with very little nutrients) of processed food loaded with sugar and sodium.
Is there any disagreement there?
Which is my point.
It doesn't matter what you weigh if you aren't getting your nutrients and proper exercise..
Double posts merged. In the future, please use the edit function rather than creating a new reply.
- Teia
yeah exactly
You may find some excusses that make you feel better about being 20-30 lbs more in weight, but good physical health adds years to your life.
If you feel good and can run a mile then it doesn't really matter if your belly jiggles a little.
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I think you're misunderstanding what a lot of people are saying when they say its okay to be a few lbs over weight. There is litterally 0 difference if your 15 lbs over weight to not at all. Everyone's body shape is also different and some people are naturally stockey. I would never advocate to attempt to be fat but if your a size 36 I wouldn't really sweat it.
If we're going by BMI, you are 8 pounds away from what is considered obese.
Note that BMI does not take into account the differences between fat and muscle, but by your own admission, you got some fat on you. And the answer is yes, having large amounts of excess fat is not healthy.
But you seem dedicated to losing it, and you're not that much overweight, so you should be fine.
Both are profoundly unhealthy, just in different ways. "Natural and unprocessed" doesn't magically make the negatives go away.
The effects of being slightly overweight are small but statistically significant. There is, in fact, a significant health difference.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I don't think it's your problem. I think you're thinking to much about this and I think that you're not even close to overweight. If you go by what doctors say you should weight at X height then you're just plain doing it wrong. These are the same people who want to deny you of high protein diets, energy loaded saturated fats and flat out comfort food that makes you feel GOOD and not like you're doing what society thinks you should. As long as you're not so fat it's a serious health risk there is absolutely nothing wrong with being overweight. There was a time in history where it was deemed attractive and a status symbol.
Eating healthy is hard. Not to mention the fact of how near impossible it is for people who work 50-70 hrs a week to actually lose weight/maintain a healthy diet. Lack of sleep, fast food because there's no time for anything else and if you're so fortunate as to have a desk job or something similarly labor light then what are your options other than crash diets or borderline eating disorders?
I hate the obsession people have with their bodies and the way they view others as inferior for not being what society deems fit. As someone who's struggled through eating disorders his entire life I can honestly say now that I'm better that what you think is skinny and hot I think is frail and weak and if you press this on others you're perpetuating this stereotype and need to take a good hard look at yourself.
Cus you're not perfect.
Wow, that was a rant. Sorry. :[
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For me to get prefered rate insurance based on BMI I would have to be under the weight where I was a gym rat in college working out 5 days and running 10 miles a week. My wife saw the pics and she said I was extremely skinny in those pics despite the nice abs.
I know regardless of fat index that people with a higher BMI are more likely to have joint issues and things like that, but you can't really do much about your skelatal structure and I'm not really sure you would want to weaken it if you could.
i'm not saying it's necessary to be overweight.
i meant to say that overweight or not overweight is not a litmus-test barometer of health.
- bmi doesn't account for muscle
- bfp or weight doesn't account for nutrition levels in blood
- bfp doesn't necessarily mean a person doesn't take care of their health overall
Depends on what the weight is, and how much of it. If it's fat, then that is not desirable. If it's muscle then it may or may not be desirable depending on how much muscle and how you're going about bulking up.
Honestly, if you have questions about your health or how to healthily lose/gain weight, the best person to talk to is your physician. Even if we were all experts on the subject, we wouldn't know your case specifically.
For example, I'm 6'2. I'm called skinny constantly, but my BMI* is a little under 21. I would have to weight less than 145 to be considered underweight, and that's just crazy to me, completely impossible to achieve even if I wanted to.
Make no mistake, being unhealthy is a bad thing. Usually being overweight means you are unhealthy. There are some people that BMI would classify as overweight and do a sport like wrestling, or particpate in powerlifting, or can do two dozen pull-ups. Those people are healthy, but they are definitely corner cases. If you are sedentary (:o) and overweight, you are most likely unhealthy.
*BMI isn't a great mechanic but it's easier than using BF% because few know theirs.
I would talk to a nutrition over a physician for your diet. Usually they concur, but some older doctors (40+) never had to take any nutrition classes in med school.
It depends on what your caloric maintenance level is, but most likely both are unhealthy.
At this point in my life I just can't agree with that. I'm currently working two jobs, balancing 2 very time consuming hobbies, and making time for the significant other/friends/family... And my diet is meticulous and damn close to perfect. (I say as I stuff a brownie down my face. God damn you had to catch me on my cheat day.)
But anyway. I find that eating fast food takes more effort than eating healthy... For the same amount of time and less money you could buy a head of broccoli, wash it off and enjoy. Same with some carrots, etc etc. Grilled chicken is very easy to come by and is one of the healthiest things you can eat. (Even though I much prefer turkey and it's just as healthy if not more, it takes a bit more effort to locate.)
5 years ago I would have agreed with you that eating healthy is hard, but now I can't agree. I'd say that eating unhealthy is hard once you've become health conscious and decided to live a healthier life.
As far as the other argument that eating healthy is more expensive, I completely disagree. Sure, you will have to eat fruits and veggies pretty much all day in order to get your daily fiber, but a simple meal at McD's can easily cost over $6. And that's for the small meal!
Thank you - this is a MAJOR problem in the United States today, in that people somehow think that 'natural' products are healthier (when in many cases they are not, especially when you start talking about unpasteurized liquids).
True, but in terms of average life expectancy, there isn't much difference. Without extreme factors (like flat out morbid obesity), all the recent studies say it comes down to genetics - some people are just predetermined to live longer, and even taking very little care of themselves they'll outlive an athlete who is genetically predisposed to heart disease.
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