I originally wanted to write this post to find strategies to defend myself against Chainwhirler. It seems to be a different post now.
I admit I dismissed this card during spoilers thinking it was a card with a drawback against enrage decks. Saw it during draft and pretty much dismissed it again then. Ultimately, I forgot all about it until I built a Saproling token deck for FNM (on a Saturday no less) and basically got creamed by red aggro decks running Chainwhirler.
I wasn't the only one at the LGS struggling against Chainwhirler. Anyone running any sort of token deck or anybody depending on x/1 creatures were stopped cold. Only blue decks had some chance.
I guess I'm not the only one struggling against the deck.
I'd rather have a strategy to play tokens and stop Chainwhirler but it seems much better players than I aren't finding much headway. Play Chainwhirler, control or go tall. Wide decks appear to be out this season.
What do you guys think? Is there a reasonable strategy to go wide and survive Chainwhirler or am I going to have to junk my deck early and find a new one?
Or do you think SaffronOlive is right and Goblin Chainwhirler needs to be banned?
It was a poorly timed printing at very least. Saprolings, Servos,& Vampires, all token strategies that exist in the current standard format. If that wasnt bad enough, they gave it first strike which means it eats a lot of creatures in combat as well.
Will it be banned? I dunno. There's certainly a reasonable case to be made.
Sadly, we are all trying to figure how to beat Chainwhirler and not suck against the rest of the meta. UW Approach is very good against mono red but bad against RB/aggro.
Esper Control is better against Rb aggro but suffers against straight mono red (mana issues). G/x decks can give red based decks trouble but Hazoret/Phoenix/Glory Dragon, just fly over you.
You cannot beat RB and mono red along the same axis. That's not possible I think, you have to chose which version of Chainwhirler to lose too.
There's a whole bunch of red cards that should not exist, they just kept printing insane stuff.
I usually build my own decks and my basis for doing it is being able to beat the current red aggro deck and up to this point I had always been able to achieve that. This time its simply impossible.
Either play the red deck or lose, thats what its come down to this time around and its made this format a joke.
By and large, I agree with SaffronOlive and the other commenters.
That's not to say that there won't be any fun for the resistance until rotation. In my FNM-level metas, most players have too good manners to play 'whirlers. Not everyone has the option, but metas do exist that are not heavily infested. At the grinder level, they don't get to pick the best deck and they have to deal with a ton of it anyway. I'm probably looking at it wrong, but play the best deck or try to beat it seems like the grinders' curse anyway.
I see competitive hope in Control, in knights (no x/1s), in enrage dinosaur ramp and in the explore creature package.
I've mostly been testing the explore creature package and have found some hope. For reference, the explore creature package has:
From there, it looks like you can go Sultai, Abzan or stick to Golgari to add value creatures, finishers and so forth. I really like Sultai, so this list appeals to me (except for the elves, but hopefully you see it as an example). I'm not saying that it will consistently beat the best decks, but it runs surprisingly close and there's a surprising amount of fun in it. All the little blockers frustrate the Bomat Couriers. Play or rez Jadelight, gain 6, swing with 9/11 Wildgrowth Walker never gets old. Taking Hazoret or Chandra with Gonti or The Eldest Reborn is pretty cool also.
My attempts with Enrage dinosaur ramp have been terribad so far, so I will spare you.
If you're wanting to play tokens, and why wouldn't you, they're fun, you just have to find a way to get your tokens pumped up out of that x/1 range. There's lots of anthems/lords out there. If I was looking to get past Chainwhirler, I'd look for enchantment based anthems over artifact based and lords. Both decks run Abrade giving them an easy way to get your tokens small enough to be smacked around by a chain. There are other cards too. Heroic Intervention is good.
Personally, my main deck is UW Embalm/Eternalize and Cats mashed together. Typically, it takes more than just a chainwhirler to kill my lifelink cat tokens, and my Sacred Cats and Adorned Pouncer just come back, and in the case of Pouncer, even meaner.
Chainwhirler is a good card, but not unbeatable. I don't think it should be banned. Red-based aggro was already the boogeyman of the format. It makes Chainwhirler seem amazing because it slotted right in. In a few months when most of the red aggro cards rotate out, Chainwhirler won't have a home and won't be so burdensome.
Another card that might have seen standard play from Core 2019 was newly spoiled Tezzeret, Artifice Master. Unfortunately anything that says 1/1 basically unplayable at the moment.
Such a shame as I don't play standard, but this would have got me interested in trying to make a deck work, but no point.
Okay, I don't know you and can't speak to your motivations, so please don't take this personally.
I don't get this post.
Are you a PPTQ grinder trying to make the Pro Tour? Don't brew with Tezzeret. It kinda sucks, but there will always be some decks that grinders shouldn't play. Isn't that part of the grinder life? Play the best deck or one that can beat it?
At FNM level, I don't see a lot of 'whirlers. People bring all sorts of fun decks. Last time I went out with a friend, he said he would force people to play more 'whirlers. He took Mardu Vehicles with Toolcraft Exemplar and Veteran Motorist to a smooth 4-0 first.
I think there are many less competitive metas that allow for enjoyable play without inordinate fear of wall-to-wall 'whirlers. I would recommend checking out where you would want to play and see if it's a real problem.
Now if you had described a strong deck with x/1s that had run into a lot of 'whirlers at all your local game stores, I would agree with the idea that you had been chased out of Standard by bad design. But as you say that you don't play Standard, I don't get it. Yeah, there are decks that could make the deck you want to brew bad. That will always be true. But losing is part of the game. Brewing with the new Tezzeret seems really fun and could be fun for a lot of people at FNM level despite the presence of 'whirler.
My local LGS is chock full of a few GP Winners, GP top 8'rs, 4-5 RPTQ qualified players (myself included) and 4 PT bound players for the upcoming PT. FNM is...
Can you believe that they still show up to FNM, Draft and win a box's? THE NERVE!
Mono Red is all the rage, and has been in Austin for a very long time.
But I've seen:
Control (UW, Esper)
Mono Red
BR
Mad Cap Gift (This a spicey one!)
Snek
Ub Midrange (I should just say, ME because everyone says the deck is bad against red, but whatever I think this deck is sick)
They show up, but the consensus is that Whirler decks are a a bit above the other decks in the format. Can you beat the Whirler Decks? Sometimes? When they don't draw the 4th Mountain until T6
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
If you're wanting to play tokens, and why wouldn't you, they're fun, you just have to find a way to get your tokens pumped up out of that x/1 range. There's lots of anthems/lords out there. If I was looking to get past Chainwhirler, I'd look for enchantment based anthems over artifact based and lords. Both decks run Abrade giving them an easy way to get your tokens small enough to be smacked around by a chain. There are other cards too. Heroic Intervention is good.
Personally, my main deck is UW Embalm/Eternalize and Cats mashed together. Typically, it takes more than just a chainwhirler to kill my lifelink cat tokens, and my Sacred Cats and Adorned Pouncer just come back, and in the case of Pouncer, even meaner.
Chainwhirler is a good card, but not unbeatable. I don't think it should be banned. Red-based aggro was already the boogeyman of the format. It makes Chainwhirler seem amazing because it slotted right in. In a few months when most of the red aggro cards rotate out, Chainwhirler won't have a home and won't be so burdensome.
Not sure how good this is in general, but I'm building a Selesnya tokens deck, and several things I'm running anyway answer 'whirler. Several token makers are 2/2's and Conclave Cavalier beats 'whirler by itself, Song of Freyalise chapter 3, Divine Visitation making new tokens 4/4's instead
If you're wanting to play tokens, and why wouldn't you, they're fun, you just have to find a way to get your tokens pumped up out of that x/1 range. There's lots of anthems/lords out there. If I was looking to get past Chainwhirler, I'd look for enchantment based anthems over artifact based and lords. Both decks run Abrade giving them an easy way to get your tokens small enough to be smacked around by a chain. There are other cards too. Heroic Intervention is good.
Personally, my main deck is UW Embalm/Eternalize and Cats mashed together. Typically, it takes more than just a chainwhirler to kill my lifelink cat tokens, and my Sacred Cats and Adorned Pouncer just come back, and in the case of Pouncer, even meaner.
Chainwhirler is a good card, but not unbeatable. I don't think it should be banned. Red-based aggro was already the boogeyman of the format. It makes Chainwhirler seem amazing because it slotted right in. In a few months when most of the red aggro cards rotate out, Chainwhirler won't have a home and won't be so burdensome.
Not sure how good this is in general, but I'm building a Selesnya tokens deck, and several things I'm running anyway answer 'whirler. Several token makers are 2/2's and Conclave Cavalier beats 'whirler by itself, Song of Freyalise chapter 3, Divine Visitation making new tokens 4/4's instead
That's not to say that there won't be any fun for the resistance until rotation. In my FNM-level metas, most players have too good manners to play 'whirlers. Not everyone has the option, but metas do exist that are not heavily infested. At the grinder level, they don't get to pick the best deck and they have to deal with a ton of it anyway. I'm probably looking at it wrong, but play the best deck or try to beat it seems like the grinders' curse anyway.
I originally wanted to write this post to find strategies to defend myself against Chainwhirler. It seems to be a different post now.
I admit I dismissed this card during spoilers thinking it was a card with a drawback against enrage decks. Saw it during draft and pretty much dismissed it again then. Ultimately, I forgot all about it until I built a Saproling token deck for FNM (on a Saturday no less) and basically got creamed by red aggro decks running Chainwhirler.
I wasn't the only one at the LGS struggling against Chainwhirler. Anyone running any sort of token deck or anybody depending on x/1 creatures were stopped cold. Only blue decks had some chance.
So I figured I'd research ways to try to tweak the deck to stop the goblin and eventually came across an article on MTGGoldfish by SaffronOlive Red Aggro Will Rotate, but Chainwhirler Was Still a Mistake
I guess I'm not the only one struggling against the deck.
I'd rather have a strategy to play tokens and stop Chainwhirler but it seems much better players than I aren't finding much headway. Play Chainwhirler, control or go tall. Wide decks appear to be out this season.
What do you guys think? Is there a reasonable strategy to go wide and survive Chainwhirler or am I going to have to junk my deck early and find a new one?
Or do you think SaffronOlive is right and Goblin Chainwhirler needs to be banned?
Will it be banned? I dunno. There's certainly a reasonable case to be made.
Esper Control is better against Rb aggro but suffers against straight mono red (mana issues). G/x decks can give red based decks trouble but Hazoret/Phoenix/Glory Dragon, just fly over you.
You cannot beat RB and mono red along the same axis. That's not possible I think, you have to chose which version of Chainwhirler to lose too.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I usually build my own decks and my basis for doing it is being able to beat the current red aggro deck and up to this point I had always been able to achieve that. This time its simply impossible.
Either play the red deck or lose, thats what its come down to this time around and its made this format a joke.
That's not to say that there won't be any fun for the resistance until rotation. In my FNM-level metas, most players have too good manners to play 'whirlers. Not everyone has the option, but metas do exist that are not heavily infested. At the grinder level, they don't get to pick the best deck and they have to deal with a ton of it anyway. I'm probably looking at it wrong, but play the best deck or try to beat it seems like the grinders' curse anyway.
I see competitive hope in Control, in knights (no x/1s), in enrage dinosaur ramp and in the explore creature package.
I've mostly been testing the explore creature package and have found some hope. For reference, the explore creature package has:
4 Seekers' Squire
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Jadelight Ranger
From there, it looks like you can go Sultai, Abzan or stick to Golgari to add value creatures, finishers and so forth. I really like Sultai, so this list appeals to me (except for the elves, but hopefully you see it as an example). I'm not saying that it will consistently beat the best decks, but it runs surprisingly close and there's a surprising amount of fun in it. All the little blockers frustrate the Bomat Couriers. Play or rez Jadelight, gain 6, swing with 9/11 Wildgrowth Walker never gets old. Taking Hazoret or Chandra with Gonti or The Eldest Reborn is pretty cool also.
My attempts with Enrage dinosaur ramp have been terribad so far, so I will spare you.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Personally, my main deck is UW Embalm/Eternalize and Cats mashed together. Typically, it takes more than just a chainwhirler to kill my lifelink cat tokens, and my Sacred Cats and Adorned Pouncer just come back, and in the case of Pouncer, even meaner.
Chainwhirler is a good card, but not unbeatable. I don't think it should be banned. Red-based aggro was already the boogeyman of the format. It makes Chainwhirler seem amazing because it slotted right in. In a few months when most of the red aggro cards rotate out, Chainwhirler won't have a home and won't be so burdensome.
Such a shame as I don't play standard, but this would have got me interested in trying to make a deck work, but no point.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I don't get this post.
Are you a PPTQ grinder trying to make the Pro Tour? Don't brew with Tezzeret. It kinda sucks, but there will always be some decks that grinders shouldn't play. Isn't that part of the grinder life? Play the best deck or one that can beat it?
At FNM level, I don't see a lot of 'whirlers. People bring all sorts of fun decks. Last time I went out with a friend, he said he would force people to play more 'whirlers. He took Mardu Vehicles with Toolcraft Exemplar and Veteran Motorist to a smooth 4-0 first.
I think there are many less competitive metas that allow for enjoyable play without inordinate fear of wall-to-wall 'whirlers. I would recommend checking out where you would want to play and see if it's a real problem.
Now if you had described a strong deck with x/1s that had run into a lot of 'whirlers at all your local game stores, I would agree with the idea that you had been chased out of Standard by bad design. But as you say that you don't play Standard, I don't get it. Yeah, there are decks that could make the deck you want to brew bad. That will always be true. But losing is part of the game. Brewing with the new Tezzeret seems really fun and could be fun for a lot of people at FNM level despite the presence of 'whirler.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Can you believe that they still show up to FNM, Draft and win a box's? THE NERVE!
Mono Red is all the rage, and has been in Austin for a very long time.
But I've seen:
Control (UW, Esper)
Mono Red
BR
Mad Cap Gift (This a spicey one!)
Snek
Ub Midrange (I should just say, ME because everyone says the deck is bad against red, but whatever I think this deck is sick)
They show up, but the consensus is that Whirler decks are a a bit above the other decks in the format. Can you beat the Whirler Decks? Sometimes? When they don't draw the 4th Mountain until T6
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Not sure how good this is in general, but I'm building a Selesnya tokens deck, and several things I'm running anyway answer 'whirler. Several token makers are 2/2's and Conclave Cavalier beats 'whirler by itself, Song of Freyalise chapter 3, Divine Visitation making new tokens 4/4's instead
Vintage: Dredge | Legacy: Burn, Goblins, Soldier | Standard: Mono-Red Aggro
Commander: Nicol Bolas, Sliver Overlord, Rafiq
Casual: Selesnya Saproling Smackdown, Izzet Labs, Rebel
Played since June 2004, mostly inactive June 2011 to March 2018
Other usernames include AlanFromRochester, homerthebeerbaron
MTG checklists from Alpha to Ravnica Allegiance - https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/other-magic-products/third-party-products/805324-checklists-for-everything-from-alpha-to-ravnica
That's not to say that there won't be any fun for the resistance until rotation. In my FNM-level metas, most players have too good manners to play 'whirlers. Not everyone has the option, but metas do exist that are not heavily infested. At the grinder level, they don't get to pick the best deck and they have to deal with a ton of it anyway. I'm probably looking at it wrong, but play the best deck or try to beat it seems like the grinders' curse anyway.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/jund-death-s-shadow#paper
It would never survive against [24 removal].
Even,
4 removal
3 removal
2 removal
= Ant Trap