So the current metagame has zero competative combo decks. For reference, this is what the forums have as proven competative decks in standards:
Colossul Gruul
Esper Control
Mono Blue Devotion
Mono Black Devotion
Rx Aggro
Even if you consider some other decks also competative (WU control, Green/red devotion etc), there isn't a single combo deck that seems to be even remotely competative.
That is rather disappointing to me, as it is my favorite archetype. Is this a case where R&D dropped the ball and didn't make the build around me cards competative enough, or is there not enough innovation?
If someone has a decent idea for a competative combo deck in standard, I am also very interested in hearing about it.
R&D has been trying to weed out combo since the fifth dawn. Every once in a while something is better than intended, but it wasn't meant to be. Hell, Frites was surroundef by over ten hate cards, many so powerful the deck was destroyed if the opponent could draw one. Before that, Twin was a mistake, and pyromancer a fluke. R&D just wants standard to be aggro, midrange, and control, so if you want to continue playing standard, I suggest you get used to one of those. Else modern and legacy would love another player.
Sorry, but standard just isn't a combo format.
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They do their best to keep combo out of standard, you see it as dropping the ball but from R&D's perspective actually putting combo in the format is the real mistake.
I love me some krark-clan ironworks. I wish combo was back, but I doubt it happens. I think our best bet is for something to come out that combo's with gift of immortality.
You can still play a decent form of hexproof. It's not the combo you want but it's just about the best that you're likely to get.
Make it g/w. Get some devotion on the board. If you can get heliod spamming tokens and if you can use divine favor and/or lifelink auras to keep your life up then you can do some work.
Isn't the G/r devotion deck a combo deck? Cause it looks and plays like an engine combo deck. Heck, devotion itself is a combo enabler, it doesn't play like 1 + 2 = win like splinter twin or sneak and show, but engine combos can do broken things.
Yeah I saw that deck on twitch (Mesmerize aka Yoann plays it). Looks really fun but isn't that consistent and Thoughtseizes wreck it. I might whip it up and see how it plays in paper though. It's certainly weird enough to surprise people.
I've heard before that 'R&D tries to keep Standard combo-free', but is that really a good thing? I guess what ThisIsNotMyActualName and Lugger say is true and Midrange kinda replaced combo in the Standard environment (but made the general positioning a bit different). Like this;
Old Standard rough metagame: Aggro>Combo>Control>Aggro
New Standard rough metagame: Aggro>Control>Midrange>Aggro
And to come back to ThisIsNotMyActualName: I actually do play Modern and Legacy (Kikitwin, Reanimator, SneakyShow etc), but lately the Standard attendence has been dropping in my local store so I would like to play Standard a few times to keep the community active. Except that I can't find any deck I like because most seems so boring and bland...
But maybe I will whip up the Possibility Storm deck.
I understand the reasoning for keeping combo out of Standard. Combo decks operate on a completely different axis than all other deck types so its hard to get it right and the chance to screw it up is high.
R&D has been trying to weed out combo since the fifth dawn. Every once in a while something is better than intended, but it wasn't meant to be. Hell, Frites was surroundef by over ten hate cards, many so powerful the deck was destroyed if the opponent could draw one. Before that, Twin was a mistake, and pyromancer a fluke. R&D just wants standard to be aggro, midrange, and control, so if you want to continue playing standard, I suggest you get used to one of those. Else modern and legacy would love another player.
Sorry, but standard just isn't a combo format.
Dragonstorm was an intentional combo deck that only got out of hand because they forgot about Gigadrowse. That happened a few blocks after Fifth Dawn.
They also printed Empty the Warrens, Ignite Memories, and Grapeshot--all a few years after Fifth Dawn. All of those cards saw play in Standard in combo decks.
Time Sieve and Open the Vaults were printed in back-to-back sets, right when Time Warp was brought back. That's not a coincidence; they wanted that deck in the format.
Hedron Crab, Crypt of Agadeem, an Extractor Demon are combo cards that all existed under the same Standard format for a time. It was never a tier 1 deck, but it made its impact on the metagame for a while--and obviously, they wanted this to happen because all this stuff was back-to-back in blocks.
I would love to see some evidence supporting your "pyromancer a fluke" statement, as that card is pretty obviously a combo engine designed to play with cheap cantrips (classic combo-enablers).
So no, obviously someone in R+D wants combo in Standard because they have intentionally put a few combo cards into the format since Fifth Dawn. Lately, they haven't put enough juice in for a full-blown combo deck to beat up everything, but they're still making things like Epic Experiment and Past in Flames, as well as rituals.
People make the same argument that they try to keep control out of the format, but honestly that only was true when Cavern of Souls was printed. How many counterspells are in Theros, alone? How many instant draw spells are in this format now? Didn't they just make a tamer Fact or Fiction in an attempt to bring it back but not have it be as ridiculous? They're trying; they just don't want to overdo things with combo and control. And let's all not forget that they lowered the hell out of the power level, with the most recent 2 sets and rotation.
Dragonstorm was an intentional combo deck that only got out of hand because they forgot about Gigadrowse. That happened a few blocks after Fifth Dawn.
They also printed Empty the Warrens, Ignite Memories, and Grapeshot--all a few years after Fifth Dawn. All of those cards saw play in Standard in combo decks.
Time Sieve and Open the Vaults were printed in back-to-back sets, right when Time Warp was brought back. That's not a coincidence; they wanted that deck in the format.
Hedron Crab, Crypt of Agadeem, an Extractor Demon are combo cards that all existed under the same Standard format for a time. It was never a tier 1 deck, but it made its impact on the metagame for a while--and obviously, they wanted this to happen because all this stuff was back-to-back in blocks.
I would love to see some evidence supporting your "pyromancer a fluke" statement, as that card is pretty obviously a combo engine designed to play with cheap cantrips (classic combo-enablers).
So no, obviously someone in R+D wants combo in Standard because they have intentionally put a few combo cards into the format since Fifth Dawn. Lately, they haven't put enough juice in for a full-blown combo deck to beat up everything, but they're still making things like Epic Experiment and Past in Flames, as well as rituals.
People make the same argument that they try to keep control out of the format, but honestly that only was true when Cavern of Souls was printed. How many counterspells are in Theros, alone? How many instant draw spells are in this format now? Didn't they just make a tamer Fact or Fiction in an attempt to bring it back but not have it be as ridiculous? They're trying; they just don't want to overdo things with combo and control. And let's all not forget that they lowered the hell out of the power level, with the most recent 2 sets and rotation.
Dagnabit! You foiled my neferious plans!
I'm just hurt by the lack of strong combo recently. It sucks to be a combo guy when the closest shop that does something other than standard is 90 miles away. Maybe I exaggerated a little too much.
As for my pyromancer claim, it comes from this: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ftl/56 . Obviously not proof that it they didn't want it to be a way to twincast time warps, and loop call to minds, but if the guy spoiling the card is any indication at all, that wasn't the plan.
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Combo decks are unfun to play against, hard to balance around, discourage interaction, and ruin the flavor of the game. They are blatantly unhealthy, and I applaud Wizards for doing away with them.
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Trolljutai, YOLOghan, Swagumgar, Bromoka, and Derptarka, the Elder Dragons.
Combo decks are unfun to play against, hard to balance around, discourage interaction, and ruin the flavor of the game. They are blatantly unhealthy, and I applaud Wizards for doing away with them.
You seem to forget if you disrupt the combo they almost always auto lose. Thats the real downside of combo decks. If you give other decks answers to the combos making a combo deck work is hard to do. However, just like with any major threat if you dont have the answer you tend to lose. AEtherling is one such card where you have to have an answer or you just lose. Yes you can draw into one MAYBE but you can still lose even if you get the answer.
In casual they are completely unfun to play against since most people build decks focused on their own decks play style, thus not careing what the opponent does. In standard there are usually answers for you to stop them. If your not prepared for the deck its YOUR fault as a player not theirs for playing it.
I love combo for the rediculous wins. I hate combo for its horrible win consistancy. Combo is considered broken when it has a good win consistancy.
Combo is one of the major reasons new players don't enjoy eternal formats as much as commander/standard/draft. Combo requires a lot of knowledge and research and playtesting to know when to interrupt the combo, and honestly going from 0 to GG's can subtract the about of fun they were expecting to have, especially if they just intended to play their deck because they rarely get to play at all.
If there was combo in standard it would shy away the more casual new players, and wizards really really wants them to stay soo
I would consider the Humanimator deck from last year combo-esque, as well as the Maze's Fog decks, and the R/W guildgate deck with that enchantment that burns for each tapped gate, forget what it's called.
These seem fine in my opinion, and am glad they are not overly competitive, humanimator aside.
The only combo decks in standard anymore are ones that the FFL miss in their playtesting. They had completely skipped over Splintertwin, which was the last relevant one. there are frequently bad combos in standard though, like Hissing Iguanar and Sharuum x2.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
Every season usually has at least 1 combo deck. They may not be the best deck, but usually at least one exists. Human reanimator last year, Heartless Havengul the year before etc. R&D doesn't typically want combo lists built for standard, but with so many cards it's almost impossible not to have 1 or 2 slip past. If you want a combo your best bet is to wait for Journey into Nyx. There's no guarantee, but between M14, Theros block, and RtR block there should be a decent tier 2 combo deck. (This of course assumes you don't count Gr devotion as a combo deck or the bant prophet one as tier two worthy.)
There already is a combo, Elite Arcanist with Triton Tactics exiled, and Zhur-Taa Druid. RUG's not a horrible set of colors right now; it's got 2 scry lands to use, you even have a (kinda ****ty) tutor for two of your combo pieces in the form of Signal the Clans, and you can give your Elite Arcanist haste with Hammer of Purphoros for the magical christmas land turn 4 combo kill. Biggest problem for it, though, is it relies on two 1/1 creatures to pull it off, and almost every deck has access to cheap instant speed removal that hits your combo pieces. There's even jankier things you can try to do - Voyaging Satyr and Illusionist's Bracers along w/ the Elite Arcanist/Triton Tactics combo can give you infinite mana.
The issue with combos in standard isn't that Wizards doesn't want them, there's always a few combos present; they just avoid two-card combos, and don't provide the tools to reliably complete a 3+ combo, so you can't make a dedicated combo deck. You can make a deck that has a combo, but it has to have some other game plan in case you can't complete it. Human Reanimator is a good example; it needed 4 pieces to actually make a lethal combo, but it could combo off from the graveyard, had tools to fill it, and could be threatening without actually comboing off. Or you get cards/decks that aren't combo decks in a classic sense; they don't result in an immediate kill, but feel sort of combo-esque. Stuff like Birthing Pod, non-human Rites decks, or the Elf-Wave deck that was around briefly before Scars rotated out.
Theros Standard, though, is going to be a poor place for combos - with Thoughtseize and Slaughter Games available, if a quality combo deck arises, there's a lot of hate available.
Colossul Gruul
Esper Control
Mono Blue Devotion
Mono Black Devotion
Rx Aggro
Even if you consider some other decks also competative (WU control, Green/red devotion etc), there isn't a single combo deck that seems to be even remotely competative.
That is rather disappointing to me, as it is my favorite archetype. Is this a case where R&D dropped the ball and didn't make the build around me cards competative enough, or is there not enough innovation?
If someone has a decent idea for a competative combo deck in standard, I am also very interested in hearing about it.
This great banner was made by Topher
Sorry, but standard just isn't a combo format.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Make it g/w. Get some devotion on the board. If you can get heliod spamming tokens and if you can use divine favor and/or lifelink auras to keep your life up then you can do some work.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=564477
I've heard before that 'R&D tries to keep Standard combo-free', but is that really a good thing? I guess what ThisIsNotMyActualName and Lugger say is true and Midrange kinda replaced combo in the Standard environment (but made the general positioning a bit different). Like this;
Old Standard rough metagame: Aggro>Combo>Control>Aggro
New Standard rough metagame: Aggro>Control>Midrange>Aggro
And to come back to ThisIsNotMyActualName: I actually do play Modern and Legacy (Kikitwin, Reanimator, SneakyShow etc), but lately the Standard attendence has been dropping in my local store so I would like to play Standard a few times to keep the community active. Except that I can't find any deck I like because most seems so boring and bland...
But maybe I will whip up the Possibility Storm deck.
This great banner was made by Topher
Dragonstorm was an intentional combo deck that only got out of hand because they forgot about Gigadrowse. That happened a few blocks after Fifth Dawn.
They also printed Empty the Warrens, Ignite Memories, and Grapeshot--all a few years after Fifth Dawn. All of those cards saw play in Standard in combo decks.
Time Sieve and Open the Vaults were printed in back-to-back sets, right when Time Warp was brought back. That's not a coincidence; they wanted that deck in the format.
Hedron Crab, Crypt of Agadeem, an Extractor Demon are combo cards that all existed under the same Standard format for a time. It was never a tier 1 deck, but it made its impact on the metagame for a while--and obviously, they wanted this to happen because all this stuff was back-to-back in blocks.
I would love to see some evidence supporting your "pyromancer a fluke" statement, as that card is pretty obviously a combo engine designed to play with cheap cantrips (classic combo-enablers).
So no, obviously someone in R+D wants combo in Standard because they have intentionally put a few combo cards into the format since Fifth Dawn. Lately, they haven't put enough juice in for a full-blown combo deck to beat up everything, but they're still making things like Epic Experiment and Past in Flames, as well as rituals.
People make the same argument that they try to keep control out of the format, but honestly that only was true when Cavern of Souls was printed. How many counterspells are in Theros, alone? How many instant draw spells are in this format now? Didn't they just make a tamer Fact or Fiction in an attempt to bring it back but not have it be as ridiculous? They're trying; they just don't want to overdo things with combo and control. And let's all not forget that they lowered the hell out of the power level, with the most recent 2 sets and rotation.
Dagnabit! You foiled my neferious plans!
I'm just hurt by the lack of strong combo recently. It sucks to be a combo guy when the closest shop that does something other than standard is 90 miles away. Maybe I exaggerated a little too much.
As for my pyromancer claim, it comes from this: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ftl/56 . Obviously not proof that it they didn't want it to be a way to twincast time warps, and loop call to minds, but if the guy spoiling the card is any indication at all, that wasn't the plan.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ftl/34
They gave a couple really obvious combo engines to the guy with the casual column, but that doesn't mean the card is intended just for casual players.
Yeah, probably similar to this thingy:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27491_Untap-Upkeep-Twenty-You.html
You seem to forget if you disrupt the combo they almost always auto lose. Thats the real downside of combo decks. If you give other decks answers to the combos making a combo deck work is hard to do. However, just like with any major threat if you dont have the answer you tend to lose. AEtherling is one such card where you have to have an answer or you just lose. Yes you can draw into one MAYBE but you can still lose even if you get the answer.
In casual they are completely unfun to play against since most people build decks focused on their own decks play style, thus not careing what the opponent does. In standard there are usually answers for you to stop them. If your not prepared for the deck its YOUR fault as a player not theirs for playing it.
I love combo for the rediculous wins. I hate combo for its horrible win consistancy. Combo is considered broken when it has a good win consistancy.
If there was combo in standard it would shy away the more casual new players, and wizards really really wants them to stay soo
I would consider the Humanimator deck from last year combo-esque, as well as the Maze's Fog decks, and the R/W guildgate deck with that enchantment that burns for each tapped gate, forget what it's called.
These seem fine in my opinion, and am glad they are not overly competitive, humanimator aside.
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
The issue with combos in standard isn't that Wizards doesn't want them, there's always a few combos present; they just avoid two-card combos, and don't provide the tools to reliably complete a 3+ combo, so you can't make a dedicated combo deck. You can make a deck that has a combo, but it has to have some other game plan in case you can't complete it. Human Reanimator is a good example; it needed 4 pieces to actually make a lethal combo, but it could combo off from the graveyard, had tools to fill it, and could be threatening without actually comboing off. Or you get cards/decks that aren't combo decks in a classic sense; they don't result in an immediate kill, but feel sort of combo-esque. Stuff like Birthing Pod, non-human Rites decks, or the Elf-Wave deck that was around briefly before Scars rotated out.
Theros Standard, though, is going to be a poor place for combos - with Thoughtseize and Slaughter Games available, if a quality combo deck arises, there's a lot of hate available.
The combo can trigger as soon as Thune comes down (provided the other two are in play and the Mage is less than 4/4).
I just think it's relatively weak, and is limited by the library.