A lot of the discussion that I've been participating in on the last few days has been focusing primarily on Dimir colors. I know a ton of people are talking about the exciting cards Dimir is getting and the rise of Duskmantle Seer. However, every list I've seen so far has been all over the place. Do we play a disruptive tempo deck, a tap-out style deck, or a draw-go control deck?
I'm not going to claim to know the answer to that. What I am going to do is offer up to you guys my bid for a Dimir Tempo deck, with Duskmantle Seer as the big man in charge and open up the discussion to you guys:
I've been scouring my brain trying to come up with the best deck to play in UB in upcoming Standard, and this is what I came up with. In my opinion, there could be a few changes in the list by rearranging a few numbers of which cards and where, but for the most part, this list is the real deal.
The major problems this deck will face are: ball-busting aggro and Supreme Verdict decks. Both of decks are manageable and capable of being defeated by enlisting the right playstyle.
Just a few notes on some of the cards I've picked that may seem unconventional:
it's easily the best 1 creature that blue/black have access to in Standard right now for this type of deck (I'm not going to front on Deathrite Shaman, but you don't fit in here bro)
in most situations, Woodlot Crawler will be a 2/1 unblockable for 2. Any evasion on a 2-drop is fantastic for this kind of deck, and some kind of evasion is perfect for a Tempo deck. He also is a very easy card to switch out for Tidebinder Mage against the aggro match up. Evolves Raptor
it's an answer to the cards that will be really hard for you to kill, remove, or prevent. It deals with the biggest threats to this deck (Desecration Demon, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Activated Gods) very handily at a low cost and gives two to Devotion.
this deck plans on never running short of cards with the combination of a quick game plan and a Duskmantle Seer. This card can remove things that Doom Blade can't hit and Indestructible creatures or give us that 2-3 extra damage we need to get in there and end the game before they can get back in it.
this card is our answer to Control decks. It's an absolute blowout if they tap out at any point with a Sphinx's Revelation in hand (which you'll know with Thoughtseize being played) and you snag all four out of their deck. Other possible targets are: Aetherling, Jace (AoT and MA), whatever other wincons are going to be played.
she fits in this deck very well by interacting with Duskmantle Seer in a very favorable way. Is there another Duskmantle Seer that you're about to draw through your Duskmantle Seer's ability? Send that fool back to the bottom of your deck, and avoid taking 4 to the face. Not to mention, Thassa does technically enter as a creature, so she does evolve Cloudfin Raptor.
PROBLEMS WITH THE DECK:
Woodlot Crawler might just be worse than Tidebinder Mage in every way.
Scrylands might hurt us more than they are worth
Hardly any draw power
Hopefully we get something in the rest of the spoilers to alleviate some of the issues above, but until then, I'll be testing this list on Cockatrice.
If you wanna Cockatrice against me, my name is Thoras. Leave a reply on this thread or send me a message and we can play a few games.
Do you like the list? Is there something missing? Am I crazy and this list is absolute garbage? Let me know before I drop half of my next paycheck on it
Cloudfin seems really bad in a deck with only 11 guys that can evolve it, and Woodlot doesn't seem worthy of maindeck play, or even really sideboard play.
where are your nightveil specters? it's great with thasa, great against control, and great in tempo. It also does not die die to magma jet. As for your 1 drop just run deathrite shaman. If you run some shock lands in place of 4-6 of the island and swamps you will be able to use the life gain ability and hate on graveyard strategies (it's worth it). Otherwise the ability to eot 2 life loss is very powerful. I think that currently thasa is a lost cause. The creatures in your deck already have evasion and you can't reliably turn her intoa creature from the looks of it. I am also under the impression that thasa will not trigger evolve under most circumstances. You may consider Liliana's reaver as it goes well with duskmantle seer's opponent draws effect and will single handedly win games if protected properly.
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I don't know, I feel like Scry makes Duskmantle Seer a lot more workable. If they give us a scrying cantrip to go with our scry lands (assuming thassa hasn't hit the board already), we'll almost always be able to know and prevent any big dmg hits from Duskmantle.
I great card to consider that was just spoiled is Agent of the Fates. If you throw in Agoraphobia and stick with evasive threats then not only will Agoraphobia allow you to keep the most threatening creature removed it is also repeatable removal with Agent of the Fates. You can also target him with an otherwise useless warped psyche or even voyage's end to save him from removal or because you need to permanently remove a threat.
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I have no idea what the meta is like so this is a bit of a shot in the dark but here is a list I came up with. One of the first thing you may notice is I have 4 Swan Songs maindeck. I chose this because they cost a single mana and are good against control but also because it can be used on our own spells especially if your opponents try and counter them to get a 2/2 flyer for 1. Other senarios where it is efficient to counter your own spell is targeting abrupt decay or a spell you used to trigger Agent of Fates heroic ability. Finally you can just counter a ciphered hands of binding.
Pack Rat may also seem like an odd choice however he has pseudo flash because he can be copied at instant speed which is good in a deck running 12 instants. It also gives you something to do with the extra lands you flip off of duskmantle seer, green cards you can't cast due to color screw, or swan song when you have no tricks to play and they have nothing worth countering. Finally it has a lol CMC to power ratio which helps with duskmantle seer. Don't hesitate to sideboard this guy out game 2-3 once you can tweak your spell base. Often you would rather have an evasive attacker anyway.
Agent of Fates works well with swan song can be reasonable with hands of binding (protip don't cipher it on to him just target him with the copies). He also keeps warped psyche from being a dead card. It can be insane in the late game with agoraphobia.
Deathrite Shaman is good because he does a little of everything. He does 2 unavoidable damage to an opponent, gains life versus aggro, and can color fix when combined with pack rat.
The deck needs some tweaking but I think it's headed in the right direction.
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I kinda abandoned this thread instead of deleting it, and I feel a little bad because after playing with the deck a little more, I realized that a lot of the cards I was playing were just complete trash.
You guys are welcome to continue working on this type of deck but as of now I'm holding off posting on competitive deck building for another week or so while I take in as much playtesting as I can.
ive been working on an UB Tempo build as well. Im not really a fan of Duskmantle Seer and Thoughtseize in the same deck. The life loss is on thing but its managable but as the Seer gives your opponent cards as well, he/she can more easily get out of a screw that you try to provoke with thoughtseize or lifebane zombie. On top of that i absolutely love Far/Away especially in a tempo deck but its too risky with the Duskmantle seer.
Thats why im tryin out Lilianas Reaver and Master of Waves in the 4 CMC creature slot. As mentioned before the Reaver works well with Thassa and creates alot of card advantage if you can protect him. Nightveil Specter was mentioned as well and while i dont love the card it provides the necessary devotion count for thassa and master of waves. Master of waves has been testing pretty well so far. Specter into Master is a really strong play.
And i totally agree that cloudfin raptor and woodlot crawler dont belong in the deck.
Have you given any thoughts to Desecration Demon in the four spot? My main issue when thinking about this kind of deck is that the two mana creatures in blue and black just aren't that impressive to me.
I was thinking of just going heavy black to be able to use 4 cacklers and 4 tormented heroes, and then leaving the 2 mana slot for counters, removal, and utility. I guess I would rather play 1 for a 2/1 than an extra mana to get protection green. I am must unsure about Ashiok it could either be the reason the deck is good, or just useless and why it fails. I could also use some help from someone on crafting the mana, or if it's even possible. The deck would need not need a lot of blue, but it would like it by turn two to have access to the counters. Which I suppose might not even be possible.
So apparently unsummon isn't going to be in standard for the fist time in 6 years and the second time in the history of magic... I wanted to run a playset
Anyways after seeing all the new cards I'm thinking something closer to an aggro deck. Here's my new list
Important thing to note:
-the average cmc is 1.07 which is highly favorable for duskmantle seer
-there are 6 protection spells
-there are 11 spells that could be used to trigger heroic
-every creature other than cloudfin raptor can trigger cloudfin raptor and only 3 of those can't trigger it the second time.
I intend to have Erebos, God of the Dead as a 3 of and nightveil specter as a 4 of in the side to brin in versus control. Probably thoughtseize in the side as well as 1-2 tidebinder mages. I will probably fill the rest of the spots with hard counters and spot removal.
Now for the part you've all been waiting for...absurd plays in Christmas Land!
imagine you have out a tapped Agent of Fates and an untapped deathrite, shaman, a Triton tactics in hand, a spell in someones graveyard and 3 mana open. Your opponent attacks into as you are not well defended and in response you pay 1 black and exile the spell with DRS so they lose 2 life. Then you cast Triton tactics untap both DRS and Agent forcing them to sac and procede to declare blockers. After blockers are declared you tap DRS and a black to exile Triton tactics and make your opponent lose another 2 life. Finally Agent kills an attacker with deathtouch and DRS locks another down for a turn.
So given the setup you took away 4 of your opponents life killed 2 creatures and locked down a third for a turn for 1 card and 3 mana.
Thassa and scry spells with Duskmantle Seer seems very strong, considering you can stack upkeep triggers from both. The scry lands help here too, as does Voyage's end.
I've never been a fan of Nightveil Specter, but curving out to make Thassa a 5/5 seems appealing. Even if she spends the first few turns as an enchantment. Making your 4/4s unblockable is nice too.
Being in blue we have multiple ways of dealing with Blood Baron, something most Bx decks are gonna have a hard time with. Also, the things that kill Baron will also kill Obzedat....Rapid Hybridization, Far//Away, countermagic, etc.
Dont write off Ashiok either. Testing has shown he's pretty playable and pulls his weight.
I'm not going to claim to know the answer to that. What I am going to do is offer up to you guys my bid for a Dimir Tempo deck, with Duskmantle Seer as the big man in charge and open up the discussion to you guys:
3x Cloudfin Raptor
4x Duskmantle Seer
3x Lifebane Zombie
4x Woodlot Crawler
Instant (13)
3x Dimir Charm
3x Doom Blade
1x Essence Scatter
2x Syncopate
2x Voyage's End
2x Warped Physique
2x Claustrophobia
3x Thassa, God of the Sea
Sorcery (4)
4x Thoughtseize
Land (24)
7x Island
2x Mutavault
7x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Watery Grave
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Duress
2x Gainsay
3x Psychic Strike
2x Reap Intellect
4x Tidebinder Mage
I've been scouring my brain trying to come up with the best deck to play in UB in upcoming Standard, and this is what I came up with. In my opinion, there could be a few changes in the list by rearranging a few numbers of which cards and where, but for the most part, this list is the real deal.
The major problems this deck will face are: ball-busting aggro and Supreme Verdict decks. Both of decks are manageable and capable of being defeated by enlisting the right playstyle.
Just a few notes on some of the cards I've picked that may seem unconventional:
Cloudfin Raptor:
Woodlot Crawler:
Claustrophobia:
Warped Physique:
Reap Intellect:
Thassa, God of the Sea:
PROBLEMS WITH THE DECK:
Woodlot Crawler might just be worse than Tidebinder Mage in every way.
Scrylands might hurt us more than they are worth
Hardly any draw power
Hopefully we get something in the rest of the spoilers to alleviate some of the issues above, but until then, I'll be testing this list on Cockatrice.
If you wanna Cockatrice against me, my name is Thoras. Leave a reply on this thread or send me a message and we can play a few games.
Do you like the list? Is there something missing? Am I crazy and this list is absolute garbage? Let me know before I drop half of my next paycheck on it
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Breeding Pool
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Island
5 Swamp
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Agent of Fates
3 Omenspeaker
3 Pack Rat
2 Syncopate
2 Unsummon
4 Swan Song
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Warped Psyche
3 Hands of Binding
3 Thoughtseize
1 Agoraphobia
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Golgari Charm
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Doom Blade
2 Wring Flesh
I have no idea what the meta is like so this is a bit of a shot in the dark but here is a list I came up with. One of the first thing you may notice is I have 4 Swan Songs maindeck. I chose this because they cost a single mana and are good against control but also because it can be used on our own spells especially if your opponents try and counter them to get a 2/2 flyer for 1. Other senarios where it is efficient to counter your own spell is targeting abrupt decay or a spell you used to trigger Agent of Fates heroic ability. Finally you can just counter a ciphered hands of binding.
Pack Rat may also seem like an odd choice however he has pseudo flash because he can be copied at instant speed which is good in a deck running 12 instants. It also gives you something to do with the extra lands you flip off of duskmantle seer, green cards you can't cast due to color screw, or swan song when you have no tricks to play and they have nothing worth countering. Finally it has a lol CMC to power ratio which helps with duskmantle seer. Don't hesitate to sideboard this guy out game 2-3 once you can tweak your spell base. Often you would rather have an evasive attacker anyway.
Agent of Fates works well with swan song can be reasonable with hands of binding (protip don't cipher it on to him just target him with the copies). He also keeps warped psyche from being a dead card. It can be insane in the late game with agoraphobia.
Deathrite Shaman is good because he does a little of everything. He does 2 unavoidable damage to an opponent, gains life versus aggro, and can color fix when combined with pack rat.
The deck needs some tweaking but I think it's headed in the right direction.
You guys are welcome to continue working on this type of deck but as of now I'm holding off posting on competitive deck building for another week or so while I take in as much playtesting as I can.
Have you given any thoughts to Desecration Demon in the four spot? My main issue when thinking about this kind of deck is that the two mana creatures in blue and black just aren't that impressive to me.
I was thinking of just going heavy black to be able to use 4 cacklers and 4 tormented heroes, and then leaving the 2 mana slot for counters, removal, and utility. I guess I would rather play 1 for a 2/1 than an extra mana to get protection green. I am must unsure about Ashiok it could either be the reason the deck is good, or just useless and why it fails. I could also use some help from someone on crafting the mana, or if it's even possible. The deck would need not need a lot of blue, but it would like it by turn two to have access to the counters. Which I suppose might not even be possible.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon
2 Essence Scatter
2 Syncopate
2 Dissolve
2 Stymied Hopes
2 Doom Blade
1 Ultimate Price
2 Warped Physique
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Ashiok
Utility - 4
4 Thoughtseize
Anyways after seeing all the new cards I'm thinking something closer to an aggro deck. Here's my new list
4 Watery grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Mystery
6 Island
4 Swamp
3 cloudfin raptor
3 Deathrite shaman
4 Tormented Hero
2 Tidebinder Mage
4 Blood Scrivener
4 Agent of Fates
3 Duskmantle Seer
3 Stymied Hopes
4 Boon of Erebos
2 Triton Tactics
2 Warped Psyche
Sorcerys 3
3 Hidden strings
Important thing to note:
-the average cmc is 1.07 which is highly favorable for duskmantle seer
-there are 6 protection spells
-there are 11 spells that could be used to trigger heroic
-every creature other than cloudfin raptor can trigger cloudfin raptor and only 3 of those can't trigger it the second time.
I intend to have Erebos, God of the Dead as a 3 of and nightveil specter as a 4 of in the side to brin in versus control. Probably thoughtseize in the side as well as 1-2 tidebinder mages. I will probably fill the rest of the spots with hard counters and spot removal.
Now for the part you've all been waiting for...absurd plays in Christmas Land!
imagine you have out a tapped Agent of Fates and an untapped deathrite, shaman, a Triton tactics in hand, a spell in someones graveyard and 3 mana open. Your opponent attacks into as you are not well defended and in response you pay 1 black and exile the spell with DRS so they lose 2 life. Then you cast Triton tactics untap both DRS and Agent forcing them to sac and procede to declare blockers. After blockers are declared you tap DRS and a black to exile Triton tactics and make your opponent lose another 2 life. Finally Agent kills an attacker with deathtouch and DRS locks another down for a turn.
So given the setup you took away 4 of your opponents life killed 2 creatures and locked down a third for a turn for 1 card and 3 mana.
I've never been a fan of Nightveil Specter, but curving out to make Thassa a 5/5 seems appealing. Even if she spends the first few turns as an enchantment. Making your 4/4s unblockable is nice too.
Being in blue we have multiple ways of dealing with Blood Baron, something most Bx decks are gonna have a hard time with. Also, the things that kill Baron will also kill Obzedat....Rapid Hybridization, Far//Away, countermagic, etc.
Dont write off Ashiok either. Testing has shown he's pretty playable and pulls his weight.
There are certainly awesome ideas here.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
That seems like the only way you can actually make use of the 1/3 human.
4 Thassa
4 Duskmantle Seer