What fatties do you like to play in solar flare? How many fatties do you think is optimal. Just a note, although I do not mind 1-2 Sun Titan, I do not like a deck centered around him.
You can also have a batterskull that does not really count as a reanimation target but it does count as a threat.
Brent runs that. I run one more Sun Titan. When your deck has so much focus on Sun Titan (2 Phantasmal, 4 O ring, Liliana, etc etc) you just always want to see him. Keep in mind that I think 2 Unburial MD is correct, with the 3rd in the SB for the mirror.
Any other threats besides these three listed are bad. The Praetors are win more, expensive, die to phantasmal, and don't help you apply pressure in many cases. The other guys such as Sphinx's and Demons usually are getting you some cards(Tutor or draw 2), but they aren't putting any real pressure on your opponent, and die to spot removal. What would you rather have, a bomb that draws you cards that will win the game, or a bomb that wins the game.
Sun(Phantasmal), Wurm and Grave all create situations where your opponents spot removal is bad. Which makes them good. Don't give your opponents cards extra value, instead give them awkward situations, and apply pressure.
No votes for Grave Titan Helix? I find him to be a little more value if faced with removal, and against a lot of decks running red. Traitorous blood seems popular in my meta, I like having the blocker.
Thoughts on Sheoldred? Is she just win-more?
I run both in my budget build, Shoeldred is cute and all but hasn't really blown me away. However I do like Grave titan though.
However, I am hearing good things about Consecrated Sphinx.
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I don't think shes a win more card. I keep her in my sideboard. Dhe's fantastic against aggro, or if you think your opponent can surgical extract or get rid of your unburial rites. You just drop her, make a smug look and go yea I just did that.
Sheoldred is win-more. by the time you're recurring finishers out of your graveyard you have access to all kinds of ways to turbo charge this process. Sun Titans and Phantasmal Images, multiple Unburial Rites, etc. the other side of Sheoldred's ability (edicting your opponent) is of very limited use. almost every deck plays many readily sacrificable dudes (Viridian Emissary, Snapcaster Mage, soldier tokens, etc.).
if you are interested in having a "better than titan" monster for the late game i'd look first to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. that has real strategic value in trumping opposing Titans and protecting you against Inkmoth Nexus. you'll have to be able to counter removal used against her though since she has no natural protections.
I definitely like Grave Titans and Rune-Scarred Demons, with 1 Wurmcoil and 1 Elesh Norn for aggro.
Rune-Scarred Demon tutors up answers or gas, flies, dodges Doom Blade and Dismember, and is just all-around great. Grave Titan can be difficult for a lot of decks to deal with and ends the game very quickly once he starts swinging. Wurmcoil Engine is an absolute house against aggressive decks. Some decks literally cannot win against a resolved Earthwurm Jim. Elesh Norn stops weenie decks in their tracks, has a fat enough ass to be near-unkillable for RDW, and completely hoses Inkmoth Nexus. She's also great for unexpected alpha swings with Grave Titan. "Elesh Norn, 16 you?".
Is sun titan not worth it if you're not running lilianas?
It still has powerful interactions with Image, but I personally wouldn't run them even with Liliana. Basing your strategy on Sun Titan makes your deck much more vulnerable to hate, and people have finally caught on that Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb are actual cards.
Sun Titan can bounce so many things that running other fatties in its place is a waste of resources. Returning a lone Snapcaster to recycle some removal/draw is worth it, and if there's a Phantasmal Image in the yard things can go out of control very quickly.
Solar Flare works very well with 2-3 Sun Titan, 2 Image, 1 Wurmcoil and 1-2 Sphinx.
Me and most of my group played with some combination of Sun Titans, Wurmcoils, Elesh Norn, and Grave Titans. Most of us were on this config though. 2 Sun 2 Wurmcoil MB 1 Grave 1 Elesh SB. Though the one that top 8'd was on something like 2 Sun 1 Wurmcoil, 1 Elesh Norn MB.
I count Phantasmal Image because he is almost always a fatty when he hits the board. Either that, or he is copies 4-5 of Snapcaster Mage when I'm in a tight spot, and that's always a fatty play.
I hope that you all keep running those Praetors, so that when we play the mirror and I play a Liliana, or Sun titan one back, I get easy value out of it. As well as out of my O rings and Spot removal, and Phantasmals for Legendary rule. Geez... it's almost as if my deck can easily deal with any one fatty, especially legendary ones.
That's funny you say that, because I run the Praetors and I wrecked face in every mirror match last weekend against the players running sun titan packages. A resolved Sheoldred won me two games*. A resolved Elesh Norn sealed the deal against half the non Solar Flare decks I played. Literally, she hit the board and they scooped while still at 20 life.
It's almost as if I'm running a deck where I can counter your removal or just recur my Praetors over and over even after you manage to get rid of them once.
*Edit: One of the plays went like this. I cast unburial rites for Sheoldred in my yard. Pass to my opponent. He casts Sun Titan recurring Phantasmal as Sheoldred, legendary rules her out. Pass back to me, I flashback Unburial Rites with a Dissipate in hand, Sheoldred hits the field again. On his upkeep he sacs Sunny, then casts a Grave Titan. I alchemy on his end step, ditching a phantasmal and lands and keeping a mana leak. On my upkeep, Phantasmal comes in as Grave Titan. His O-Ring next turn gets dissipated. It was over after two more combat phases, after Sheoldred gave me a free wurmcoil on my next upkeep.
*Edit 2: There was also the fact that I already had Liliana in play one game so he couldn't edict my Elesh Norn when he Sun Titan'd into his lily. His choice was either Sunny > PI as Elesh Norn (both die) > My lily edicts his titan next turn OR Sunny > PI as Sunny > Lily, both die, Elesh kills his Titan when he swings next turn or kills the Phantasmal he can't recur if he doesn't swing into her with Titan next turn. He took the second option. I cast a wurmcoil and RSD into Phantasmal before he got an answer to Norn, and his Grave Titan sat in his hand.
I hope that you all keep running those Praetors, so that when we play the mirror and I play a Liliana, or Sun titan one back, I get easy value out of it. As well as out of my O rings and Spot removal, and Phantasmals for Legendary rule. Geez... it's almost as if my deck can easily deal with any one fatty, especially legendary ones.
The Praetors only take 2 spots in the deck. It's not like we are cutting OUR Sun Titans, and O-rings, and spot removal, and Lilianas, and Phatasmals.
if you are interested in having a "better than titan" monster for the late game i'd look first to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. that has real strategic value in trumping opposing Titans and protecting you against Inkmoth Nexus. you'll have to be able to counter removal used against her though since she has no natural protections.
I can attest to Elesh Norn winning games by being on the field. You effectively neuter Tempered Steel. Inkmoth activations are a non-factor anymore, and your 8/8 titans are pretty good vs 4/4's.
If I was going to run a package of fatties, it'd probably be
1 Sphinx, 2 Sun Titan, 1 Elesh, 1 Wurmcoil.
Sphinx is just amazing vs sorcery speed removal and in control matchups vs UB and UW, it's like a kick in the tookus. Elesh is really just amazing in the aggro/midrange matchups. WCE and Grave Titan both have their places, obviously in DOJ/Ratchet Bomb land, Grave Titan isn't as stellar, but WCE shines more from the get go. I think WCE is more versatile and stands up to hate better than Grave Titan... but if you see a lot of doom blades, WCE may not be as spicy of a choice as Grave Titan.
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This actually is a really good point. You have to balance raw power with the fact that Phantasmal Image is in pretty much every deck that's running blue. I play Flare, and this is actually the reason why I run 2 Consecrated Sphinx, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Phyrexian Ingester as my fatty suite. I just can't see running Rune-Scarred Demon, Wurmcoil Engine, or Sphinx of Uthuun until the Image love dies down.
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shes very good for breaking the mirror match and mounting a recovery if your down in creature count.
she may look win-more but she is more utility for when you in a pinch than anything else.
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I run three sun, one frost, wurmcoil, and a chancellor of the dross. Might drop chancellor for the sphinx. Get this: i side evil twin for the mirrorXD let me also say that timely reinforcements might be my favorite card in standard besides forbidden alchemy. I think I'm going to side a sun Titan and put a grave Titan in this build, though. We can call it "teen titans"XD
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2 sun titan
1 grave titan
1 wurmcoil engine
You can also have a batterskull that does not really count as a reanimation target but it does count as a threat.
Brent runs that. I run one more Sun Titan. When your deck has so much focus on Sun Titan (2 Phantasmal, 4 O ring, Liliana, etc etc) you just always want to see him. Keep in mind that I think 2 Unburial MD is correct, with the 3rd in the SB for the mirror.
Any other threats besides these three listed are bad. The Praetors are win more, expensive, die to phantasmal, and don't help you apply pressure in many cases. The other guys such as Sphinx's and Demons usually are getting you some cards(Tutor or draw 2), but they aren't putting any real pressure on your opponent, and die to spot removal. What would you rather have, a bomb that draws you cards that will win the game, or a bomb that wins the game.
Sun(Phantasmal), Wurm and Grave all create situations where your opponents spot removal is bad. Which makes them good. Don't give your opponents cards extra value, instead give them awkward situations, and apply pressure.
I run both in my budget build, Shoeldred is cute and all but hasn't really blown me away. However I do like Grave titan though.
However, I am hearing good things about Consecrated Sphinx.
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- Rune-Scarred Demon
- Elesh Norn
- Sphinx of Uthuun
- Sheoldred
- Chancellor of the Dross
(better than it looks depending on manabase and meta)I don't think shes a win more card. I keep her in my sideboard. Dhe's fantastic against aggro, or if you think your opponent can surgical extract or get rid of your unburial rites. You just drop her, make a smug look and go yea I just did that.
if you are interested in having a "better than titan" monster for the late game i'd look first to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. that has real strategic value in trumping opposing Titans and protecting you against Inkmoth Nexus. you'll have to be able to counter removal used against her though since she has no natural protections.
Rune-Scarred Demon tutors up answers or gas, flies, dodges Doom Blade and Dismember, and is just all-around great. Grave Titan can be difficult for a lot of decks to deal with and ends the game very quickly once he starts swinging. Wurmcoil Engine is an absolute house against aggressive decks. Some decks literally cannot win against a resolved Earthwurm Jim. Elesh Norn stops weenie decks in their tracks, has a fat enough ass to be near-unkillable for RDW, and completely hoses Inkmoth Nexus. She's also great for unexpected alpha swings with Grave Titan. "Elesh Norn, 16 you?".
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It still has powerful interactions with Image, but I personally wouldn't run them even with Liliana. Basing your strategy on Sun Titan makes your deck much more vulnerable to hate, and people have finally caught on that Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb are actual cards.
Solar Flare works very well with 2-3 Sun Titan, 2 Image, 1 Wurmcoil and 1-2 Sphinx.
3 Sun Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phantasmal Image
I count Phantasmal Image because he is almost always a fatty when he hits the board. Either that, or he is copies 4-5 of Snapcaster Mage when I'm in a tight spot, and that's always a fatty play.
It's almost as if I'm running a deck where I can counter your removal or just recur my Praetors over and over even after you manage to get rid of them once.
*Edit: One of the plays went like this. I cast unburial rites for Sheoldred in my yard. Pass to my opponent. He casts Sun Titan recurring Phantasmal as Sheoldred, legendary rules her out. Pass back to me, I flashback Unburial Rites with a Dissipate in hand, Sheoldred hits the field again. On his upkeep he sacs Sunny, then casts a Grave Titan. I alchemy on his end step, ditching a phantasmal and lands and keeping a mana leak. On my upkeep, Phantasmal comes in as Grave Titan. His O-Ring next turn gets dissipated. It was over after two more combat phases, after Sheoldred gave me a free wurmcoil on my next upkeep.
*Edit 2: There was also the fact that I already had Liliana in play one game so he couldn't edict my Elesh Norn when he Sun Titan'd into his lily. His choice was either Sunny > PI as Elesh Norn (both die) > My lily edicts his titan next turn OR Sunny > PI as Sunny > Lily, both die, Elesh kills his Titan when he swings next turn or kills the Phantasmal he can't recur if he doesn't swing into her with Titan next turn. He took the second option. I cast a wurmcoil and RSD into Phantasmal before he got an answer to Norn, and his Grave Titan sat in his hand.
—Phyrexian Scriptures
The Praetors only take 2 spots in the deck. It's not like we are cutting OUR Sun Titans, and O-rings, and spot removal, and Lilianas, and Phatasmals.
I can attest to Elesh Norn winning games by being on the field. You effectively neuter Tempered Steel. Inkmoth activations are a non-factor anymore, and your 8/8 titans are pretty good vs 4/4's.
If I was going to run a package of fatties, it'd probably be
1 Sphinx, 2 Sun Titan, 1 Elesh, 1 Wurmcoil.
Sphinx is just amazing vs sorcery speed removal and in control matchups vs UB and UW, it's like a kick in the tookus. Elesh is really just amazing in the aggro/midrange matchups. WCE and Grave Titan both have their places, obviously in DOJ/Ratchet Bomb land, Grave Titan isn't as stellar, but WCE shines more from the get go. I think WCE is more versatile and stands up to hate better than Grave Titan... but if you see a lot of doom blades, WCE may not be as spicy of a choice as Grave Titan.
This actually is a really good point. You have to balance raw power with the fact that Phantasmal Image is in pretty much every deck that's running blue. I play Flare, and this is actually the reason why I run 2 Consecrated Sphinx, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Elesh Norn, and 1 Phyrexian Ingester as my fatty suite. I just can't see running Rune-Scarred Demon, Wurmcoil Engine, or Sphinx of Uthuun until the Image love dies down.
Not to mention people should start by running more O rings. 4. And more Dissipates. Come, play me on MWS, and I will crush your praetors.
Pm me.
shes very good for breaking the mirror match and mounting a recovery if your down in creature count.
she may look win-more but she is more utility for when you in a pinch than anything else.
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