So this is the mill deck I am running at FNM, and have had 2 first place finishes with over the past 3 weeks. I am posting here to really ask for ideas as far as how to help improve it. Note that I have never used Hedron crab and still mill people extremely easily, I am not sure if he would ever add value if I used him.
Do note that I own 2 Gideons just not sure where to put him in place of something. The Kabira Crossroads are used to give me more time against RDW kids that run rampant here in the meta, along with the wall of omens, also he draws me cards, thats never bad.
Jace's Erasure should be an auto 4-of. And find a spot for Merfolk Mesmerist as at least a 2-of. I can't see how the Archive Traps are winning you games on their own especially since searching is a lot less prevalent in most meta's. I mean it's possible with an aggressive mulligan. I would probably add a Beleren to the mix also. I love the deck, I play a version with Allies. By T4 it can get crazy. I don't win often, but it sure is fun when I do.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Jace's Erasure should be an auto 4-of. And find a spot for Merfolk Mesmerist as at least a 2-of. I can't see how the Archive Traps are winning you games on their own especially since searching is a lot less prevalent in most meta's. I mean it's possible with an aggressive mulligan. I would probably add a Beleren to the mix also. I love the deck, I play a version with Allies. By T4 it can get crazy. I don't win often, but it sure is fun when I do.
Erasure is not good, and I use traumatize along with the new Jace to mill as well.
Jace's Erasure should be an auto 4-of. And find a spot for Merfolk Mesmerist as at least a 2-of. I can't see how the Archive Traps are winning you games on their own especially since searching is a lot less prevalent in most meta's. I mean it's possible with an aggressive mulligan. I would probably add a Beleren to the mix also. I love the deck, I play a version with Allies. By T4 it can get crazy. I don't win often, but it sure is fun when I do.
Merfolk Mesmerist is awful. Jace's Erasure is only decent in a deck built for it, not in just any mill deck.
As far as Traumatize, I don't like that card at all. Sure, it can be a huge hit off the first one, but that's only if you've done basically no milling up until that point. By turn 5 (possibly later if you've missed a land drop), I would expect more than 20 cards to have been milled, putting your opponent at 28 or so cards (counting what they've drawn), meaning your first Traumatize is hitting for about 14. Why not just have an Archive Trap at that point? The Traumatize just gets worse and worse with time, while the Archive Trap is just one steady value, and can possibly be free. I would drop the Traumatizes and make the Trapmaker's Snares 4-ofs to compliment your Traps.
The 2 Gideons sound great.
Drop some Omens to make 4 Spellskite, it's just better.
The counterspell package seems a little light, I might add some more (4 Mana Leak and 2 or 3 Spell Pierce is good).
4 Journey and 4 O-Ring seems like a bit much. I think you should definitely drop some of the Journeys, if not all.
As for Hedron Crab, you probably shouldn't run him, as he's only outstanding with fetchlands, which your colors don't support.
If you say so..........
I will post my decklist when the lawn is cut, LOL. I also use 2x Temple Bell. I guess the question that should be asked and hasn't, what is your other win-con? In standard, it is very difficult to compete without a 2nd win-con, especially if you play with/in the same FNM with basically the same people. I was the only one who played in my FNM that played Vamps a year ago, and by the 3rd week, everyone's SB had some sort of Vamp hate. The same goes for a deck of this type. You will win for a few weeks, but once you keep bringing the same deck others will bring the hate. Just an opinion, and not meant to offend anyone or be sarcastic.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
If you say so..........
I will post my decklist when the lawn is cut, LOL. I also use 2x Temple Bell. I guess the question that should be asked and hasn't, what is your other win-con? In standard, it is very difficult to compete without a 2nd win-con, especially if you play with/in the same FNM with basically the same people. I was the only one who played in my FNM that played Vamps a year ago, and by the 3rd week, everyone's SB had some sort of Vamp hate. The same goes for a deck of this type. You will win for a few weeks, but once you keep bringing the same deck others will bring the hate. Just an opinion, and not meant to offend anyone or be sarcastic.
Well with the way my sideboard is set up, milling is always viable, no eldrazi or leyline will stop me from milling peoples decks to death, which I have done quite successfully, even winning a nice sum of packs with it.
As far as Traumatize, I don't like that card at all. Sure, it can be a huge hit off the first one, but that's only if you've done basically no milling up until that point. By turn 5 (possibly later if you've missed a land drop), I would expect more than 20 cards to have been milled, putting your opponent at 28 or so cards (counting what they've drawn), meaning your first Traumatize is hitting for about 14. Why not just have an Archive Trap at that point? The Traumatize just gets worse and worse with time, while the Archive Trap is just one steady value, and can possibly be free. I would drop the Traumatizes and make the Trapmaker's Snares 4-ofs to compliment your Traps.
The 2 Gideons sound great.
Drop some Omens to make 4 Spellskite, it's just better.
The counterspell package seems a little light, I might add some more (4 Mana Leak and 2 or 3 Spell Pierce is good).
4 Journey and 4 O-Ring seems like a bit much. I think you should definitely drop some of the Journeys, if not all.
As for Hedron Crab, you probably shouldn't run him, as he's only outstanding with fetchlands, which your colors don't support.
As far as the Traumatize is concerned, I completely understand your point about diminishing returns especially on a 5 drop, but what else do I have to mill with? Even if it only nails 8-12 cards, thats not too bad because that means a couple of Traps or Jace activations have occurred and Im feeling pretty good about the match already as is with that.
Also I only own 3 Spellskite and do not want to own a 4th, this is probably the only deck Ill ever build needing 4 of him and its just not worth it.
OK,
How does Eldrazi NOT stop you from milling? How does VengvineNOT stop you? Do you run Leyline of the Void?
I completely understand your point about diminishing returns especially on a 5 drop, but what else do I have to mill with?
Tome Scour sounds like a reasonable card. Mill 5 for :symu:. Sounds like a nice trade off.
As for Jace's Erasure, lets say you have 2 on the board and a Temple Bell. Isn't milling 4 cards every time you draw one a good play? I don't see how you need to build a deck around it for it to be a viable play.
As an alternate win-con for myself, I use Vengeful Pharaoh. It isn't that hard to get in my graveyard and it protects my Jace's.
Not for nothing, here is what you said in post #2:
Anyone want to help?
So far, you haven't liked anything I have said, and only agreed with another poster on one thing. I gave you my .02, but you obviously wanted $2.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Imo you DO need Gideon Jura in here, mostly for his +2 ability which will keep you alive for a few turns, as this deck is majorly lacking in defensive capabilities. Gideon can also kill threats.
Also, I think any deck is an auto-4-of with Surgical Extraction. By milling, you're basically taking the card and stating: Choose any one card in a deck and remove all copies from the game. This easily picks off terrible threads such as non-basic lands (IE Valakut), combo cards (Twin, Exarch) and simple cards like Hawks and counterspells. It's highly offensive AND defensive for just 2 life.
Also, playing around with Jace's Archivist is a neat idea... However I'm not sure how much you like your own hand.
Kyonu,
I agree with you on the Gideon, but how do you protect yourself before he gets on the board? He is going to take 5 turns to get there at the very least. If your playing against any sort of half way decent control player, he is going to counter it. On the flip side, if your playing against aggro, he will never see the board. The deck needs answers to threats early game and a way to protect Jace, any edition. I don't see it happening.
Here is the deck that I am currently playing. I do have another B/U Mill deck in the works, I just haven't had much time to see what the best options are for cards with the exception of the Archive Traps.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
I protect myself well enough right now with 4 DoJ and 4 Journeys with 4 Oblivion ring along with my Spellskites and Wall of Omens. But Im looking to improve the deck, which is why I am here.
Plus look at my sideboard, I use Nihil Spellbomb to exile their graveyard to stop eldrazi from ruining my mill plan. No need for the black leyline.
Yea, that 20 lands won't cut it there. I'm extremely skeptical. And no fetches for the Hedron Crab either? And Preordain is better than Ponder when you don't have many shuffle effects. Ponder only trumps it when you have a ton of shuffling.
I tried running a list pretty similar to donusdux, and found it almost universally won with damage instead of milling, had a hard time with removal (without an Excavator to copy doesn't do much milling untill Jace hits) and pretty much rolled over to control.
Not to be negative, just I took a really similar list to FNM last week and went 1-3, only beating a Caw Blade deck that manascrewed first game and misplayed a Ratchet Bomb game 2, and completely rolled over to control decks and Kuldotha Red.
Kyonu,
I agree with you on the Gideon, but how do you protect yourself before he gets on the board? He is going to take 5 turns to get there at the very least. If your playing against any sort of half way decent control player, he is going to counter it. On the flip side, if your playing against aggro, he will never see the board. The deck needs answers to threats early game and a way to protect Jace, any edition. I don't see it happening.
He has plenty of ways to last until 5th turn, albeit barely at most. All he needs to do is put down Gideon and the game instantly grows in the "possibly might sorta kinda win" direction.
However, I do not believe Mill is yet viable until maybe Innistrad. Even Ally mill decks are compromised--all they need to do is Extract a single Excavator and your gameplan falls to crumbles. Allies just aren't a competitive tribe anymore...
Also, in any deck that does not have mana acceleration; 22-24 lands is the best bet. Period. It's simply a ratio per card--you need to hit 5 mana during any one game which won't happen often with 20 lands.
He has plenty of ways to last until 5th turn, albeit barely at most. All he needs to do is put down Gideon and the game instantly grows in the "possibly might sorta kinda win" direction.
However, I do not believe Mill is yet viable until maybe Innistrad. Even Ally mill decks are compromised--all they need to do is Extract a single Excavator and your gameplan falls to crumbles. Allies just aren't a competitive tribe anymore...
Also, in any deck that does not have mana acceleration; 22-24 lands is the best bet. Period. It's simply a ratio per card--you need to hit 5 mana during any one game which won't happen often with 20 lands.
Which is why I've given up on ally milling a while ago.
I would try something similar to Caw-Blade.. Use the birds to hit people with Sword of Body and Mind.
You don't have any fogs, so it's reasonable to assume that you're going to get beat on by aggro decks fairly easily. I would drop the Traumatizes for Timely Reinforcements. The extra life is usually enough to trounce RDW.
Because you're playing mill, I see no reason not to have Surgical Extraction in your sideboard. After one connection with a sworded bird, you pretty much have all the targets you could ask for. Not to mention you can snipe your opponent's Mana Leaks, Lightning Bolts, or other good things.
I would try something similar to Caw-Blade.. Use the birds to hit people with Sword of Body and Mind.
You don't have any fogs, so it's reasonable to assume that you're going to get beat on by aggro decks fairly easily. I would drop the Traumatizes for Timely Reinforcements. The extra life is usually enough to trounce RDW.
Because you're playing mill, I see no reason not to have Surgical Extraction in your sideboard. After one connection with a sworded bird, you pretty much have all the targets you could ask for. Not to mention you can snipe your opponent's Mana Leaks, Lightning Bolts, or other good things.
Not being rude, but you ASKED for help and feedback but every time someone offers it you shoot em down and yes Traumatize is a BAD card for the deck. The only one that doea anything for you is the first one and that is if you have not milled much already, if you Trap x2 then Traumatize, its a wasted card in the deck.
Not being rude, but you ASKED for help and feedback but every time someone offers it you shoot em down and yes Traumatize is a BAD card for the deck. The only one that doea anything for you is the first one and that is if you have not milled much already, if you Trap x2 then Traumatize, its a wasted card in the deck.
The only thing Ive really shot down is the Jace's Erasure recommendation, Im certainly tinkering with this deck all day on mtgo and working it out more. I got some timelys to plug into it with gideon so we'll see how it works out with a few less of the removal spells and some walls.
EDITS :
Putting up a new updated list in a second for more critique.
The only thing Ive really shot down is the Jace's Erasure recommendation, Im certainly tinkering with this deck all day on mtgo and working it out more. I got some timelys to plug into it with gideon so we'll see how it works out with a few less of the removal spells and some walls.
Milling is not just about Milling, you need another win con AND you need stuff in the deck to keep you alive long enough to mill your opponent.
Milling is not just about Milling, you need another win con AND you need stuff in the deck to keep you alive long enough to mill your opponent.
1. I updated my deck with a new list, much nicer I think it runs as well no real problem milling people to death.
2. What else should I do? Should I put in 2(or 3) sobams and 1 sowap and mainboard more timely? Maybe a third gideon? (just sold my 2 sofaf thats not an option)
1. I updated my deck with a new list, much nicer I think it runs as well no real problem milling people to death.
2. What else should I do? Should I put in 2(or 3) sobams and 1 sowap and mainboard more timely? Maybe a third gideon? (just sold my 2 sofaf thats not an option)
imo 2 Gideon are fine, if you feel like you want another, MAYBE a third in the sb? As for the Swords, if you add Swords, your changing the entire deck. The sworded version works around an aggro/mill type build.
Okay... so facing this deck I SB in one Eldrazi, always keep 7~8 cards in hand (to discard the Eldrazi if I ever draw it) and I auto-win. Same goes for Vengevine.
5 Island
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Kabira Crossroads
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Gideon Jura
3 Day of Judgment
2 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Preordain
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Dismember
4 Archive Trap
3 Visions of Beyond
4 Mana Leak
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Celestial Purge
3 Demystify
So this is the mill deck I am running at FNM, and have had 2 first place finishes with over the past 3 weeks. I am posting here to really ask for ideas as far as how to help improve it. Note that I have never used Hedron crab and still mill people extremely easily, I am not sure if he would ever add value if I used him.
Do note that I own 2 Gideons just not sure where to put him in place of something. The Kabira Crossroads are used to give me more time against RDW kids that run rampant here in the meta, along with the wall of omens, also he draws me cards, thats never bad.
UPDATES :
1.1.1 - 1.2.1 Changelog :
-4 Journey to Nowhere
-1 Day of Judgment
-3 Traumatize
-3 Wall of Omens
+3 Timely Reinforcements
+3 Dismember
+1 Spellskite
+2 Gideon Jura
+1 Mana leak
+1 Visions of Beyond
1.2.1 - 1.2.2 Changelog :
-1 Mana Leak
-1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Traumatize
Jace's Erasure should be an auto 4-of. And find a spot for Merfolk Mesmerist as at least a 2-of. I can't see how the Archive Traps are winning you games on their own especially since searching is a lot less prevalent in most meta's. I mean it's possible with an aggressive mulligan. I would probably add a Beleren to the mix also. I love the deck, I play a version with Allies. By T4 it can get crazy. I don't win often, but it sure is fun when I do.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Erasure is not good, and I use traumatize along with the new Jace to mill as well.
Merfolk Mesmerist is awful. Jace's Erasure is only decent in a deck built for it, not in just any mill deck.
As far as Traumatize, I don't like that card at all. Sure, it can be a huge hit off the first one, but that's only if you've done basically no milling up until that point. By turn 5 (possibly later if you've missed a land drop), I would expect more than 20 cards to have been milled, putting your opponent at 28 or so cards (counting what they've drawn), meaning your first Traumatize is hitting for about 14. Why not just have an Archive Trap at that point? The Traumatize just gets worse and worse with time, while the Archive Trap is just one steady value, and can possibly be free. I would drop the Traumatizes and make the Trapmaker's Snares 4-ofs to compliment your Traps.
The 2 Gideons sound great.
Drop some Omens to make 4 Spellskite, it's just better.
The counterspell package seems a little light, I might add some more (4 Mana Leak and 2 or 3 Spell Pierce is good).
4 Journey and 4 O-Ring seems like a bit much. I think you should definitely drop some of the Journeys, if not all.
As for Hedron Crab, you probably shouldn't run him, as he's only outstanding with fetchlands, which your colors don't support.
I will post my decklist when the lawn is cut, LOL. I also use 2x Temple Bell. I guess the question that should be asked and hasn't, what is your other win-con? In standard, it is very difficult to compete without a 2nd win-con, especially if you play with/in the same FNM with basically the same people. I was the only one who played in my FNM that played Vamps a year ago, and by the 3rd week, everyone's SB had some sort of Vamp hate. The same goes for a deck of this type. You will win for a few weeks, but once you keep bringing the same deck others will bring the hate. Just an opinion, and not meant to offend anyone or be sarcastic.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Well with the way my sideboard is set up, milling is always viable, no eldrazi or leyline will stop me from milling peoples decks to death, which I have done quite successfully, even winning a nice sum of packs with it.
As far as the Traumatize is concerned, I completely understand your point about diminishing returns especially on a 5 drop, but what else do I have to mill with? Even if it only nails 8-12 cards, thats not too bad because that means a couple of Traps or Jace activations have occurred and Im feeling pretty good about the match already as is with that.
Also I only own 3 Spellskite and do not want to own a 4th, this is probably the only deck Ill ever build needing 4 of him and its just not worth it.
How does Eldrazi NOT stop you from milling? How does Vengvine NOT stop you? Do you run Leyline of the Void?
Tome Scour sounds like a reasonable card. Mill 5 for :symu:. Sounds like a nice trade off.
As for Jace's Erasure, lets say you have 2 on the board and a Temple Bell. Isn't milling 4 cards every time you draw one a good play? I don't see how you need to build a deck around it for it to be a viable play.
As an alternate win-con for myself, I use Vengeful Pharaoh. It isn't that hard to get in my graveyard and it protects my Jace's.
Not for nothing, here is what you said in post #2:
So far, you haven't liked anything I have said, and only agreed with another poster on one thing. I gave you my .02, but you obviously wanted $2.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Also, I think any deck is an auto-4-of with Surgical Extraction. By milling, you're basically taking the card and stating: Choose any one card in a deck and remove all copies from the game. This easily picks off terrible threads such as non-basic lands (IE Valakut), combo cards (Twin, Exarch) and simple cards like Hawks and counterspells. It's highly offensive AND defensive for just 2 life.
Also, playing around with Jace's Archivist is a neat idea... However I'm not sure how much you like your own hand.
Creatures [28]
4x Extractor Demon
4x Rotting Rats
4x Dregscape Zombie
3x Fatestitcher
4x Viscera Dragger
4x Hedron Crab
2x Kederekt Leviathan
3x Corpse Connoisseur
4x Spell Pierce
2x Consume Spirit
2x Tome Scour
3x Grim Discovery
Lands [23]
4x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Crypt of Agadeem
2x Grixis Panorama
2x Swamp
12x Island
Check out my SELLING LIST of great pricing!
I agree with you on the Gideon, but how do you protect yourself before he gets on the board? He is going to take 5 turns to get there at the very least. If your playing against any sort of half way decent control player, he is going to counter it. On the flip side, if your playing against aggro, he will never see the board. The deck needs answers to threats early game and a way to protect Jace, any edition. I don't see it happening.
2x Halimar Depths
10x Plains
7x Island
4x Haida Freeblade
4x Kazandu Blademaster
4x Halimar Excavator
4x Jwari Shapeshifter
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Jace, Mind Adapt
1x Jace Beleren
4x Tome Scour
4x Mana Leak
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Trapmaker's Snare
4x Archive Trap
Here is the deck that I am currently playing. I do have another B/U Mill deck in the works, I just haven't had much time to see what the best options are for cards with the exception of the Archive Traps.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Plus look at my sideboard, I use Nihil Spellbomb to exile their graveyard to stop eldrazi from ruining my mill plan. No need for the black leyline.
Not to be negative, just I took a really similar list to FNM last week and went 1-3, only beating a Caw Blade deck that manascrewed first game and misplayed a Ratchet Bomb game 2, and completely rolled over to control decks and Kuldotha Red.
He has plenty of ways to last until 5th turn, albeit barely at most. All he needs to do is put down Gideon and the game instantly grows in the "possibly might sorta kinda win" direction.
However, I do not believe Mill is yet viable until maybe Innistrad. Even Ally mill decks are compromised--all they need to do is Extract a single Excavator and your gameplan falls to crumbles. Allies just aren't a competitive tribe anymore...
Also, in any deck that does not have mana acceleration; 22-24 lands is the best bet. Period. It's simply a ratio per card--you need to hit 5 mana during any one game which won't happen often with 20 lands.
Creatures [28]
4x Extractor Demon
4x Rotting Rats
4x Dregscape Zombie
3x Fatestitcher
4x Viscera Dragger
4x Hedron Crab
2x Kederekt Leviathan
3x Corpse Connoisseur
4x Spell Pierce
2x Consume Spirit
2x Tome Scour
3x Grim Discovery
Lands [23]
4x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Crypt of Agadeem
2x Grixis Panorama
2x Swamp
12x Island
Check out my SELLING LIST of great pricing!
Which is why I've given up on ally milling a while ago.
You don't have any fogs, so it's reasonable to assume that you're going to get beat on by aggro decks fairly easily. I would drop the Traumatizes for Timely Reinforcements. The extra life is usually enough to trounce RDW.
Because you're playing mill, I see no reason not to have Surgical Extraction in your sideboard. After one connection with a sworded bird, you pretty much have all the targets you could ask for. Not to mention you can snipe your opponent's Mana Leaks, Lightning Bolts, or other good things.
I suggest something like this:
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Spellskite
Artifact
3 Sword of Body and Mind
Sorcery
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Day of Judgment
2 Ponder
4 Archive Trap
4 Mana Leak
4 Visions of Beyond
Enchantment
2 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalker
3 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Giddeon Jura
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Mental Misstep
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Day of Judgment
I have 4 journeys, 2 skites, 3 omens, and 4 0-rings, thats been stopping the agro decks cold here in my LGS, but I am deeply considering timely.
I do also own 2 SOBAMS maybe I should acquire a third and run it with hawks.
also Mill-Blade has already been done. http://60cards.com/decklists/all60/
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The only thing Ive really shot down is the Jace's Erasure recommendation, Im certainly tinkering with this deck all day on mtgo and working it out more. I got some timelys to plug into it with gideon so we'll see how it works out with a few less of the removal spells and some walls.
EDITS :
Putting up a new updated list in a second for more critique.
Milling is not just about Milling, you need another win con AND you need stuff in the deck to keep you alive long enough to mill your opponent.
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To Counter a Spell Jon Finkel Simply Taps Two Islands and Says No!
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•●«It's Pronounced Duh Mah Juh»●•
1. I updated my deck with a new list, much nicer I think it runs as well no real problem milling people to death.
2. What else should I do? Should I put in 2(or 3) sobams and 1 sowap and mainboard more timely? Maybe a third gideon? (just sold my 2 sofaf thats not an option)
imo 2 Gideon are fine, if you feel like you want another, MAYBE a third in the sb? As for the Swords, if you add Swords, your changing the entire deck. The sworded version works around an aggro/mill type build.
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To Counter a Spell Jon Finkel Simply Taps Two Islands and Says No!
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My Youtube Channel
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I'd personally suggest putting either
Sundial of the Infinite
And/or
4x Trapmaker's Snare
In your SB. Preferably the latter 6.
This should pretty much be a mandatory 3~6 slots, depending on which option you use.
standard
BU control
BG infect
modern:
mill
edh:
devour for power
Shizuko ramp