Here is a list I have been testing. It is pretty effective so far. I feel it has a good match against many decks in the meta right now. I am not running vengevine, or conscription, or rafiq / finest hour. I am a junk / rock player and thought I would incorporate some of those more disruptive elements in via hand control from esper charm, tidehollow sculler, duress, and identity crisis. Jace is just so good, that I think he makes dark bant playable again in standard and he fits in well with the overall disruptive strategy. These colors offer such a good utilitarian spell package in general.
Identity crisis is MVP against most control decks, and if you resolve it you usually will win (especially after they mind sping... lulz) and duress / sculler lets you pressure them early as well.
The sideboard is clean and straight forward. Day of judgment is there against shroud, seas is there against nuisance lands like valkut / sky ruin as well as multicolor decks with shaky mana base (like this deck!), kor walker is against rdw / jund, bant charm is more instant speed removal against conscription bant as well as artifact hate against random esper decks, cosi's inquisition replaces duress as needed.
Since Dark Bant is no longer a tested competitive archetype (in this current Standard), I'm moving this to the SDC section where it can develop on its own. The Bant competitive forum is just for Next Level Bant and Mythic, and even those two should have their own separate forums since they're two entirely different decks.
I hope to play this or something like this at FNM this week, so I should have some results, which may or may not pique interest here depending on how I do.
Hopefully the mods can keep the thread open till then.
it needs more prophetic prism. the cobra's are kinda questionable where the only bomb I am running is 3 slayers. as a color fixer i think the prism would just better. i think i just need to play with the numbers and mana base a bit to make it work. most of my problems were from having inadequate mana.
mono white midrange / sky ruin.
His transcendant masters were a pain, so were the sky ruins. I wished I kept bant charm on the sideboard. It seems that both games he top decked a master when he had like 9 mana open, and won off that card. I'd say these games were close but the fact that his alpha swings with his fully level master gained him nine life per swing, means they weren't 2-0
esper-transmuter.
These games were fun, but not much to remark. It just required careful playing and keeping his transmuter off the board. Bouncing it with jace and stealing it with sculler and pathing the sculler so he could never get it back was fun. 2-1
Jund.
I was pleased with the win I got against him. I had two scullers with blightning and thrinax under them and he had no hand but was building a scary board. I dayed him and them played double inquisition, and came back to win. The final game I feel if I had an extra white, I would have had a chance as I was holding double baneslayer. 1-2 RG Vicious Shadows / spawn token / howling mine / runflare homebrew. This deck is bizzare and brutal. If he has spawns in play and resolves a vicious shadows it is literally game over. And he ramps pretty quick. Also he can easily trap a runeflare with the fonts and mines that he runs. I was holding esper charms the one game where he got to resolve the shadows, but I had no access to white to disenchant it 1-2
I was generally pleased with card choices in this deck. Tidehollow works really well with the support of esper charm and inquisition and jace. Jace works well with identity crisis. Rhox was monk is solid antiaggro. Whether gideon is the right fit, I don't know. Elspeth might perform better. The most lackluster card was lotus cobra. I wonder if it would just be better as wall of omens for the earlier padding against aggro as well as for the cantrip effect.
I feel the deck would benefit greatly from 4 prophetic prism to help prevent the color screw. I'll continue working on the deck. It was almost there but not quite in the games I lost.
Round 1 RDW:
He beat me fast game one. Searing blaze took out mana guys. I boarded in rhox war monk to stabilize early and negate to stop his burn. The war monk kept me stable to trap into iona early. He scopped. The next game was close but I trapped iona again. Win 2-1.
Round 2: Mono white control:
This dudes deck is annoying. He runs student, gideon, transcendent master, baneslayer, emeria, o-ring, elspeth, day, knight of white orchid, admonition angel. I just seemed to empty my hand faster than he did, and he'd control the game. I didn't see any jace, summoning traps, or ionas.
Loss 0-2
Round 3: Mono black vamps
These were kinda easy. The game I lost, I had bad mana and she had removal. Trapped iona for one game, and hardcasted sphinxes with harrow and cobras the other game.
Win 2-1
Round 4: Cruel control
The first game we went to top deck mode and ended up trapping sphinx. Next game was kinda back and forth but he thought hemorrhaged my traps and spreaded my mana base. The last game I got mana shorted and double blightning'd.
Loss 1-2
2-2
4th out of 8
Identity crisis on the side didn't do much for me. It's too color sensitive to be played here. I felt like I could have used some additional draw power in some of the games. Slime might just be better served as spreading seas in this build. You draw a card, it's less color Dependant, and it can be played earlier to stall their early game.
You forgot to write in the Summoning Traps for your list above; assuming that you played three of them.
Apart from that....Summoning Trap for Iona & Sphinx of the Steel Wind just seems a little bit too fancy, unless you plan to make it your primary goal to win; in which case you should play four of them. Your other creatures just aren't strong enough to push through by themselves(aside from BSA).
The Tidehollow Sculler is just a really good card. You force them to stick a removal spell to him, or they lose card advantage and probably a key part of their strategy.
Esper Charm serves to refill your hand, as well as messing with theirs as well(more often than not, discard should be its main function, the draw is just an added bonus).
Tons of removal in the deck in order to push through with your creatures, as well as Elspeth to help you stall out and push guys through in the air.
Crystal Ball is the only iffy choice, but I like it as a 2of. It streamlines your draws, and since your deck isn't incredibly mana-hungry, it isn't that much of an issue. Also works well with Jace, because you can Brainstorm, and then use Crystal Ball to send the two chaff cards to the bottom.
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Ahh. Yes, I ran 4 summoning traps -- the list I ran was 60 with the 4 traps. Yeah, it seems like without the traps it was tough. However I was able to hardcast the sphinx on several occasions, and every trap went into either a sphinx or an iona. I'd maybe run trapmaker's snare if I were to continue on that route, possibly even an early beater like leech or warmonk in the maindeck.
I like the list you just posted. The crystal ball is an interesting choice, not only for the interactions with jace but also by itself.
There is another standard event tomorrow, perhaps I will give your variation a test run.
I have an even more aggro version written on the back of an envelope somewhere which runs some equipment along with rafiq, of the many.
You had mentioned that Prophetic Prism might be a necessary choice(which makes sense, your mana base is pretty shaky as it is, one Spreading Seas can make things difficult).
Also mentioned that Bant Charm would be good for that leveler deck you faced, but it is also viable against Polymorph(if they don't find Emrakul), and works as an extra counter if you need it.
Malakir Bloodwitch is just good in so many matchups - all of the Bant ones. KoTR, BSA, etc, all become flat to her - and almost all of the removal in those decks is white.
Duress is good against Polymorph, I thought about putting in another, but it's just too much of a corner case.
The last RWM is for RDW, just to give you the chance to draw it more often. 4 damage is hard to burn out, and he stops a swing from a Hellspark for a turn, and when he connects, you just made him have to topdeck another Lightning Bolt.
Good luck tomorrow(today?) - I would help you test it, but I don't have a lot of these cards. I am open to test on MWS if you want; feel free to shoot me a PM.
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It seems like it's getting solid, and it's also pretty fun to run, since you interact a good amount with the opponent.
Round 1 vs walker control running bolt main:
These games were really long winded. I think vess and identity crisis game me inevitability vs this guy, not to mention esper charm and sculler. He was running less draw power than the usual builds I've seen. He ran leyline of sanctity and luminarch from the board. Given more time, I would have went 2-1 rather than 1-1. The game he won, was with a luminarch, ascension many turns post armageddon with ajani.
Round 2 vs some RB burn / control homebrew
Resolving an early jace kept him on his toes. I knew that by bumping jace +2 a turn I'd get CA because he'd simply throw burn at jace because he ran no creatures and feared the final. I beat him with jace ultimate using crysal balls to filter my draws. Win 2-0
Round 3 vs green midrange
His deck was pretty solid, using primeval titan to tutor oran-rief, tec edge, and khalini garden. The games were long. He ran cards like noble heirarch, acidic slime, leatherback baloth, titan and overrun. He always opened with an oran rief followed the next turn by a heirarch with counter, followed by a baloth or fauna shama. The final match I got mana shorted. Knights kept me in the game. Elspeth throwing 9/9 knights is always sweet. Loss 1-2
Round 4 dredgevine
I thought I'd have a good match against this with instant speed removal and identity crisis. Vess was just a card tutor and esper charm was card draw. The first game was going well but he played 2 alchemists bounced my blockers and hit me with 16 pts of vengevine damage. I really don't remember the game where I beat him. The final game that I lost, I just had no gas. I had 2 knights which I used as chumps and I never saw any fetches. Bant charm was good against his creatures and against his eldrazi monument. Loss 1-2
I feel the deck just needs a little tweaking, as I am not getting straight up sweeped out.
The crystal ball was good when it saw play, especially with jace, but I feel prophetic prism simply has to be main to stabilize the mana.
Also, I could see running bojaka bog off the board as a singleton as hate against vine, as well as some maybe spreading seas to hit manlands, as well as other annoyances.
The birds are definitely better than the lotus cobras in this deck.
I feel that my friend will want his jace 2.0 back because I've running them in decks for weeks now, and he hasn't played in standard for a while. What do you think about for substitutes? I was thinking 3 spreading seas, and maybe a -1 vess, -2 crystal ball, +3 prism main. Possibly a time reversal, since this deck can empty its hand. I do like vess though. She has good interactions with the rest of the deck.
Jace 2.0 is kind of hard to replace -> if you are getting rid of them you do need some way to streamline your draws, or get CA. You could try running 2 of Jace 1.0, as some people are in order to block other people's Jace's(dunno if you see them a lot in your meta), and also they work as a +1 card each turn.
I see the reason for getting some Spreading Seas in there - cantrips & partial removal against certain decks, but I would be hesitant to cut the Crystal Balls if you don't have Jace 2.0, because you need the card manipulation even more.
I'd also like to find the room for another Prophetic Prism, because two doesn't ensure that you draw them often enough. Perhaps you could drop a land(Creeping Tar Pit, in my opinion) for the third one of them(if you haven't had too many issues with getting to four mana consistently).
You could also run try running Bojuka Bog in the main; given the amount of Vengevine that sees play(Next Level Bant, Dredgevine, etc, etc.), because it's tutorable with KotR.
Spreading Seas seems like it would be good, but I can't figure out what should come out for it - going to test on MWS now.
EDIT: Just played some practice games with the deck on MWS, with the changes to your list: -1 Tarpit, -3 Jace 2.0, -1 Liliana, +3 Prophetic Prism, +2 Jace 1.0, -1 Condemn, +1 Path to Exile.
Currently, the card total is at 62, but I can't seem to figure out what to cut. I'm tentatively wanting to cut a Pulse, but I haven't played against any Walker decks or even decks that have Walkers at all in them.
I played two matches, going 2-0, then 1-0 due to an S:PL after I Pathed his Grave Titan with BSA on the board. The first match the deck was able to recover from a Mind Sludge thanks to Esper Charm, and then got Sludge'd again, topdecking an Elspeth and racing for the win. The second game was no contest.
The deck seems very solid now; I would even go as far as to say that only two Jace 2.0 are needed in the mainboard even when you do have them, and the Prophetic Prisms with the BoP make the manabase seem like a dream.
The only real issue I've found is being on like 4 lands, and having to use KotR to dodge stuff like Corrupt or Lightning Bolt(people forgetting I can grab a fetch from the sac'd land for +2/+2), and then due to the deck thinning, not getting the next land I need. Of course, I didn't lose those games, probably because KotR got so fat, but it was annoying having a dead BSA in my hand.
Hey, do you realize that you are changing your deck completely all time ??
I can assume that you are not working into a deck here, as always change to a diferent base. Developing this deck in this way could be never a ending task.
What you say doesn't make sense. The whole purpose of testing is that you change your deck based on faults that you find. Look at the build in the original post and the list I played yesterday. They are very similar.
Dark bant trap was simply a different deck in these colors.
What you say doesn't make sense. The whole purpose of testing is that you change your deck based on faults that you find. Look at the build in the original post and the list I played yesterday. They are very similar.
Dark bant trap was simply a different deck in these colors.
What I say is that you should use at least same deck base strategy in all variants of your testing, not just having same color base. It is like comparing Bant aggro with Bant control. Both will have different evolutions while testing.
For the last deck, I think there is no reason to put Liliana on the deck. You are using black on the deck just for the Tidehollow and Liliana.
For the Stoic Angel, I have running it and I have to say that if you are not playing into a -1 creature attacking- you should not use the Stoic as it will affect you. It works very well with Ajani Goldmane.
What I say is that you should use at least same deck base strategy in all variants of your testing, not just having same color base. It is like comparing Bant aggro with Bant control. Both will have different evolutions while testing.
For the last deck, I think there is no reason to put Liliana on the deck. You are using black on the deck just for the Tidehollow and Liliana.
Liliana vess compliment jace 2.0, compliments tidehollow, and compliments esper charm, and tutors for cards.
Furthermore, I am not just using black for sculler and vess -- Maelstrom pulse and esper charm are black.
For the Stoic Angel, I have running it and I have to say that if you are not playing into a -1 creature attacking- you should not use the Stoic as it will affect you. It works very well with Ajani Goldmane.
I'm not sure "because it affects you too" is a good analysis of the card. The creature count of this deck is relatively low. Any deck with a higher creature count will be more heavily affected which is most decks in standard, save for cruel control, and WUx control.
The few times that I've playtested the deck, it generally swings in with a big KoTR, or with a singleton of another card. However, I think that Stoic Angel is the wrong card for this deck. The deck gains nothing by limiting them to one attacker, and stands to lose quite a bit if it allows the game to progress to the point where they can start Martial Coup'ing into Planeswalkers, or Daying into Mind Springs; its better to allow yourself to have that advantage.
With the Rhox War Monks & the Baneslayers, losing that little bit of life isn't too much of a hit, as you can gain it back, and are probably busting their nuts for even more.
I would suggest dropping a Jace 2.0 for a 1.0(because you have to), and perhaps dropping a Prism altogether to lower the card card from 62 -> 61.
This makes Esper Charm primarily a draw spell for you, unless you are ahead in board position, in which case it shoots at their hand.
Cheers, I'm out for two weeks on vacation.
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I wouldn't worry about the mill matchup; because no one will really play it at a tournament, due to all of the Emrakul that's running around.
It would seem that he attempts to subvert this with his Leyline of the Void. If you put a Darksteel Colossus in your sideboard over your Bojuka Bog, you beat his mill; unless he sticks JTMS on you. Of course, that only works until you hit 0 cards left, but it should be long enough for you to find an answer, as all you really need to do is stick Elspeth on the board and you win -> Soldier Tokens beat Consuming Vapors, and +3/+3 gives you a solid clock.
Beating the Counterspells is a simple issue of baiting him out. Wait until he taps out, then drop Elspeth. Or, if you are at 7 mana, bait the counterspell with a KoTR or a RWM, and then drop Elspeth when he has no mana left past that.
If the deck is still an issue, I suppose it's just a bad matchup for you; and you'll have to live with it. I don't have another answer past that.
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Interesting to see someone else play with black in Bant. I've been playing what I like to call "Pulse Bant" for some time which, for all extents and purposes, is Mythic/Conscription Bant with removal in the form of Maelstrom Pulse. I haven't updated my sideboard (more or less since I change it every time I go to an FNM or something) but here is my list:
I've thought of doing a creature heavy build like the old extended dark bant zoo lists which ran ancient ziggeraut and under 10 spells.
It's done fairly well. It does have problems with the older version of Jund that runs a great deal of removal (hence the Thornlings in the sideboard, however the newer Jund is a much better matchup) but otherwise, it steamrolls Naya (Vengevine, Boss, etc.) and holds its ground against UW Control (really depends on who gets the better draw....and remembering to free your manlands via pulse to the Spreading Seas....yes I've made this mistake....too many times....). I've only played Polymorph a few times but every time it's played very well.
I haven't exactly won any FNM's/other events but I've gotten top four in almost every FNM for the past four months (our FNMs are normally around 28 people with a wide spread of archetypes. UW Control, Polymorph, Mythic Bant, Jund, Naya, you name it.) and did well at a few large PTQs (never broke top eight...mainly because I forget to pulse the spreading seas...;__; ).
The stats in my signature are off. Haven't updated it for a long time now. Hahaha.
I've had this on hold for a bit, as I've been playing more "conservative" lists (ie: less colors lol) in the form of junk, and bant lists.
I'd like to try conundrum sphinx out somewhere in here. Seems the list I used with crystal ball, vess, and jace TMS could support it quite well.
I also wonder what the options for fauna shaman could be. Lists along the lines of the original play too few creatures. I'll probably throw together some kind of list which runs like <= 10 spells, and the rest creatures -- with shaman you can use doublets and singletons pretty effectively and sun titan would be worth running because the curve would be low, and he'd have a lot of good targets.
Identity crisis is MVP against most control decks, and if you resolve it you usually will win (especially after they mind sping... lulz) and duress / sculler lets you pressure them early as well.
The sideboard is clean and straight forward. Day of judgment is there against shroud, seas is there against nuisance lands like valkut / sky ruin as well as multicolor decks with shaky mana base (like this deck!), kor walker is against rdw / jund, bant charm is more instant speed removal against conscription bant as well as artifact hate against random esper decks, cosi's inquisition replaces duress as needed.
Thoughts / suggestions?
4 lotus cobra
3 rhox war monk
3 tidehollow sculler
3 baneslayer angel
4 knight of the reliquary
Mana
3 seaside citadel
3 arcane sanctum
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
3 marsh flats
1 celestial colonnade
1 creeping tarpit
1 stirring wildwood
3 plains
2 island
2 forest
2 swamp
3 jace the mind sculptor
2 gideon jura
Other Spells
2 identity crisis
3 esper charm
3 maelstrom pulse
4 path to exile
3 duress
2 day of judgement
3 bant charm
3 kor firewalker
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 spreading seas
I think my card count is high at 64, but it seems to play fine with 27 land.
Hopefully the mods can keep the thread open till then.
Thanks.
2 duress
3 mindbreak trap
2 emeria angel
2 day of judgment
2 smother
it needs more prophetic prism. the cobra's are kinda questionable where the only bomb I am running is 3 slayers. as a color fixer i think the prism would just better. i think i just need to play with the numbers and mana base a bit to make it work. most of my problems were from having inadequate mana.
mono white midrange / sky ruin.
His transcendant masters were a pain, so were the sky ruins. I wished I kept bant charm on the sideboard. It seems that both games he top decked a master when he had like 9 mana open, and won off that card. I'd say these games were close but the fact that his alpha swings with his fully level master gained him nine life per swing, means they weren't 2-0
esper-transmuter.
These games were fun, but not much to remark. It just required careful playing and keeping his transmuter off the board. Bouncing it with jace and stealing it with sculler and pathing the sculler so he could never get it back was fun. 2-1
Jund.
I was pleased with the win I got against him. I had two scullers with blightning and thrinax under them and he had no hand but was building a scary board. I dayed him and them played double inquisition, and came back to win. The final game I feel if I had an extra white, I would have had a chance as I was holding double baneslayer. 1-2
RG Vicious Shadows / spawn token / howling mine / runflare homebrew. This deck is bizzare and brutal. If he has spawns in play and resolves a vicious shadows it is literally game over. And he ramps pretty quick. Also he can easily trap a runeflare with the fonts and mines that he runs. I was holding esper charms the one game where he got to resolve the shadows, but I had no access to white to disenchant it 1-2
I was generally pleased with card choices in this deck. Tidehollow works really well with the support of esper charm and inquisition and jace. Jace works well with identity crisis. Rhox was monk is solid antiaggro. Whether gideon is the right fit, I don't know. Elspeth might perform better. The most lackluster card was lotus cobra. I wonder if it would just be better as wall of omens for the earlier padding against aggro as well as for the cantrip effect.
I feel the deck would benefit greatly from 4 prophetic prism to help prevent the color screw. I'll continue working on the deck. It was almost there but not quite in the games I lost.
I played this tonight:
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Terramorphic Expanse
5 Forest
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Celestial Collonade
Creatures
2 Noble Heirarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Sphinx of Steel Wind
3 path to exile
3 harrow
3 condemn
3 jace the mind sculptor
3 maelstrom pulse
3 rhox war monk
4 acidic slime
4 negate
2 identity crisis
2 day of judgment
Round 1 RDW:
He beat me fast game one. Searing blaze took out mana guys. I boarded in rhox war monk to stabilize early and negate to stop his burn. The war monk kept me stable to trap into iona early. He scopped. The next game was close but I trapped iona again. Win 2-1.
Round 2: Mono white control:
This dudes deck is annoying. He runs student, gideon, transcendent master, baneslayer, emeria, o-ring, elspeth, day, knight of white orchid, admonition angel. I just seemed to empty my hand faster than he did, and he'd control the game. I didn't see any jace, summoning traps, or ionas.
Loss 0-2
Round 3: Mono black vamps
These were kinda easy. The game I lost, I had bad mana and she had removal. Trapped iona for one game, and hardcasted sphinxes with harrow and cobras the other game.
Win 2-1
Round 4: Cruel control
The first game we went to top deck mode and ended up trapping sphinx. Next game was kinda back and forth but he thought hemorrhaged my traps and spreaded my mana base. The last game I got mana shorted and double blightning'd.
Loss 1-2
2-2
4th out of 8
Identity crisis on the side didn't do much for me. It's too color sensitive to be played here. I felt like I could have used some additional draw power in some of the games. Slime might just be better served as spreading seas in this build. You draw a card, it's less color Dependant, and it can be played earlier to stall their early game.
Apart from that....Summoning Trap for Iona & Sphinx of the Steel Wind just seems a little bit too fancy, unless you plan to make it your primary goal to win; in which case you should play four of them. Your other creatures just aren't strong enough to push through by themselves(aside from BSA).
Your first list seemed more interesting.
How about...
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Forest
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Celestial Collonade
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Walkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Crystal Ball
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Esper Charm
For a total of 60.
The Tidehollow Sculler is just a really good card. You force them to stick a removal spell to him, or they lose card advantage and probably a key part of their strategy.
Esper Charm serves to refill your hand, as well as messing with theirs as well(more often than not, discard should be its main function, the draw is just an added bonus).
Tons of removal in the deck in order to push through with your creatures, as well as Elspeth to help you stall out and push guys through in the air.
Crystal Ball is the only iffy choice, but I like it as a 2of. It streamlines your draws, and since your deck isn't incredibly mana-hungry, it isn't that much of an issue. Also works well with Jace, because you can Brainstorm, and then use Crystal Ball to send the two chaff cards to the bottom.
I like the list you just posted. The crystal ball is an interesting choice, not only for the interactions with jace but also by itself.
There is another standard event tomorrow, perhaps I will give your variation a test run.
I have an even more aggro version written on the back of an envelope somewhere which runs some equipment along with rafiq, of the many.
For a sideboard, I might suggest
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Day of Judgement
4 Prophetic Prism
3 Duress
1 Rhox War Monk
You had mentioned that Prophetic Prism might be a necessary choice(which makes sense, your mana base is pretty shaky as it is, one Spreading Seas can make things difficult).
Also mentioned that Bant Charm would be good for that leveler deck you faced, but it is also viable against Polymorph(if they don't find Emrakul), and works as an extra counter if you need it.
Malakir Bloodwitch is just good in so many matchups - all of the Bant ones. KoTR, BSA, etc, all become flat to her - and almost all of the removal in those decks is white.
Duress is good against Polymorph, I thought about putting in another, but it's just too much of a corner case.
The last RWM is for RDW, just to give you the chance to draw it more often. 4 damage is hard to burn out, and he stops a swing from a Hellspark for a turn, and when he connects, you just made him have to topdeck another Lightning Bolt.
Good luck tomorrow(today?) - I would help you test it, but I don't have a lot of these cards. I am open to test on MWS if you want; feel free to shoot me a PM.
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Sun Petal Grove
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Celestial Collonade
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Creeping tarpit
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Seaside citadel
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Walkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 liliana vess
Artifacts:
2 Crystal Ball
Spells:
3 Path to Exile
3 Condemn
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Esper Charm
2 Bant Charm
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Day of Judgement
3 Prophetic Prism
3 Duress
2 Identity Crisis
1 Rhox War Monk
It seems like it's getting solid, and it's also pretty fun to run, since you interact a good amount with the opponent.
Round 1 vs walker control running bolt main:
These games were really long winded. I think vess and identity crisis game me inevitability vs this guy, not to mention esper charm and sculler. He was running less draw power than the usual builds I've seen. He ran leyline of sanctity and luminarch from the board. Given more time, I would have went 2-1 rather than 1-1. The game he won, was with a luminarch, ascension many turns post armageddon with ajani.
Round 2 vs some RB burn / control homebrew
Resolving an early jace kept him on his toes. I knew that by bumping jace +2 a turn I'd get CA because he'd simply throw burn at jace because he ran no creatures and feared the final. I beat him with jace ultimate using crysal balls to filter my draws. Win 2-0
Round 3 vs green midrange
His deck was pretty solid, using primeval titan to tutor oran-rief, tec edge, and khalini garden. The games were long. He ran cards like noble heirarch, acidic slime, leatherback baloth, titan and overrun. He always opened with an oran rief followed the next turn by a heirarch with counter, followed by a baloth or fauna shama. The final match I got mana shorted. Knights kept me in the game. Elspeth throwing 9/9 knights is always sweet. Loss 1-2
Round 4 dredgevine
I thought I'd have a good match against this with instant speed removal and identity crisis. Vess was just a card tutor and esper charm was card draw. The first game was going well but he played 2 alchemists bounced my blockers and hit me with 16 pts of vengevine damage. I really don't remember the game where I beat him. The final game that I lost, I just had no gas. I had 2 knights which I used as chumps and I never saw any fetches. Bant charm was good against his creatures and against his eldrazi monument. Loss 1-2
I feel the deck just needs a little tweaking, as I am not getting straight up sweeped out.
The crystal ball was good when it saw play, especially with jace, but I feel prophetic prism simply has to be main to stabilize the mana.
Also, I could see running bojaka bog off the board as a singleton as hate against vine, as well as some maybe spreading seas to hit manlands, as well as other annoyances.
The birds are definitely better than the lotus cobras in this deck.
I feel that my friend will want his jace 2.0 back because I've running them in decks for weeks now, and he hasn't played in standard for a while. What do you think about for substitutes? I was thinking 3 spreading seas, and maybe a -1 vess, -2 crystal ball, +3 prism main. Possibly a time reversal, since this deck can empty its hand. I do like vess though. She has good interactions with the rest of the deck.
Jace 2.0 is kind of hard to replace -> if you are getting rid of them you do need some way to streamline your draws, or get CA. You could try running 2 of Jace 1.0, as some people are in order to block other people's Jace's(dunno if you see them a lot in your meta), and also they work as a +1 card each turn.
Maybe...
-3 Jace 2.0
-1 Liliana
+2 Jace 1.0
+2 Prophetic Prism
I see the reason for getting some Spreading Seas in there - cantrips & partial removal against certain decks, but I would be hesitant to cut the Crystal Balls if you don't have Jace 2.0, because you need the card manipulation even more.
I'd also like to find the room for another Prophetic Prism, because two doesn't ensure that you draw them often enough. Perhaps you could drop a land(Creeping Tar Pit, in my opinion) for the third one of them(if you haven't had too many issues with getting to four mana consistently).
You could also run try running Bojuka Bog in the main; given the amount of Vengevine that sees play(Next Level Bant, Dredgevine, etc, etc.), because it's tutorable with KotR.
Spreading Seas seems like it would be good, but I can't figure out what should come out for it - going to test on MWS now.
EDIT: Just played some practice games with the deck on MWS, with the changes to your list: -1 Tarpit, -3 Jace 2.0, -1 Liliana, +3 Prophetic Prism, +2 Jace 1.0, -1 Condemn, +1 Path to Exile.
Currently, the card total is at 62, but I can't seem to figure out what to cut. I'm tentatively wanting to cut a Pulse, but I haven't played against any Walker decks or even decks that have Walkers at all in them.
I played two matches, going 2-0, then 1-0 due to an S:PL after I Pathed his Grave Titan with BSA on the board. The first match the deck was able to recover from a Mind Sludge thanks to Esper Charm, and then got Sludge'd again, topdecking an Elspeth and racing for the win. The second game was no contest.
The deck seems very solid now; I would even go as far as to say that only two Jace 2.0 are needed in the mainboard even when you do have them, and the Prophetic Prisms with the BoP make the manabase seem like a dream.
The only real issue I've found is being on like 4 lands, and having to use KotR to dodge stuff like Corrupt or Lightning Bolt(people forgetting I can grab a fetch from the sac'd land for +2/+2), and then due to the deck thinning, not getting the next land I need. Of course, I didn't lose those games, probably because KotR got so fat, but it was annoying having a dead BSA in my hand.
I can assume that you are not working into a deck here, as always change to a diferent base. Developing this deck in this way could be never a ending task.
Dark bant trap was simply a different deck in these colors.
What do you think about stoic angel?
I've always thought that it was a really good underused card.
What I say is that you should use at least same deck base strategy in all variants of your testing, not just having same color base. It is like comparing Bant aggro with Bant control. Both will have different evolutions while testing.
For the last deck, I think there is no reason to put Liliana on the deck. You are using black on the deck just for the Tidehollow and Liliana.
For the Stoic Angel, I have running it and I have to say that if you are not playing into a -1 creature attacking- you should not use the Stoic as it will affect you. It works very well with Ajani Goldmane.
Liliana vess compliment jace 2.0, compliments tidehollow, and compliments esper charm, and tutors for cards.
Furthermore, I am not just using black for sculler and vess -- Maelstrom pulse and esper charm are black.
I'm not sure "because it affects you too" is a good analysis of the card. The creature count of this deck is relatively low. Any deck with a higher creature count will be more heavily affected which is most decks in standard, save for cruel control, and WUx control.
With the Rhox War Monks & the Baneslayers, losing that little bit of life isn't too much of a hit, as you can gain it back, and are probably busting their nuts for even more.
This is the list that I have been running:
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Sun Petal Grove
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Celestial Collonade
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Seaside citadel
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts:
2 Crystal Ball
3 Prophetic Prism
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Esper Charm
2 Bant Charm
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Day of Judgement
2 Negate
3 Duress
2 Identity Crisis
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Bojuka Bog
I would suggest dropping a Jace 2.0 for a 1.0(because you have to), and perhaps dropping a Prism altogether to lower the card card from 62 -> 61.
This makes Esper Charm primarily a draw spell for you, unless you are ahead in board position, in which case it shoots at their hand.
Cheers, I'm out for two weeks on vacation.
4 creeping tarpit
4 drowned catacombs
5 swamp
5 island
4 cancel
3 deprive
4 duress
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 archive trap
4 mind funeral
3 leyline of the void
4 consuming vapors
2 elixer of vitality
3 jace the mind-sculptor
When I used to play junk, I always did poorly against turbofog as well.
It would seem that he attempts to subvert this with his Leyline of the Void. If you put a Darksteel Colossus in your sideboard over your Bojuka Bog, you beat his mill; unless he sticks JTMS on you. Of course, that only works until you hit 0 cards left, but it should be long enough for you to find an answer, as all you really need to do is stick Elspeth on the board and you win -> Soldier Tokens beat Consuming Vapors, and +3/+3 gives you a solid clock.
Beating the Counterspells is a simple issue of baiting him out. Wait until he taps out, then drop Elspeth. Or, if you are at 7 mana, bait the counterspell with a KoTR or a RWM, and then drop Elspeth when he has no mana left past that.
If the deck is still an issue, I suppose it's just a bad matchup for you; and you'll have to live with it. I don't have another answer past that.
3 Plains
1 Island
5 Forest
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Marsh Flats
1 Stirring Wildwood
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Rafiq of the Many
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
Spells (12)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Finest Hour
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Eldrazi Conscription
2 Path to Exile
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Dauntless Escort
2 Pithing Needle
3 Negate
2 Thornling
[SPOILER=Decks and Such]
Current Decks:[SPOILER]
:symu::symw::symg: Bant Exalted (T2) "The Pulse of Bant" Record: 8-3-0, 2nd Place: 1, 3rd Place: 2, 4th Place: 1
:symg::symr: Banefire Elves (T2) [/SPOILER]
I've thought of doing a creature heavy build like the old extended dark bant zoo lists which ran ancient ziggeraut and under 10 spells.
It's done fairly well. It does have problems with the older version of Jund that runs a great deal of removal (hence the Thornlings in the sideboard, however the newer Jund is a much better matchup) but otherwise, it steamrolls Naya (Vengevine, Boss, etc.) and holds its ground against UW Control (really depends on who gets the better draw....and remembering to free your manlands via pulse to the Spreading Seas....yes I've made this mistake....too many times....). I've only played Polymorph a few times but every time it's played very well.
I haven't exactly won any FNM's/other events but I've gotten top four in almost every FNM for the past four months (our FNMs are normally around 28 people with a wide spread of archetypes. UW Control, Polymorph, Mythic Bant, Jund, Naya, you name it.) and did well at a few large PTQs (never broke top eight...mainly because I forget to pulse the spreading seas...;__; ).
The stats in my signature are off. Haven't updated it for a long time now. Hahaha.
[SPOILER=Decks and Such]
Current Decks:[SPOILER]
:symu::symw::symg: Bant Exalted (T2) "The Pulse of Bant" Record: 8-3-0, 2nd Place: 1, 3rd Place: 2, 4th Place: 1
:symg::symr: Banefire Elves (T2) [/SPOILER]
I've had this on hold for a bit, as I've been playing more "conservative" lists (ie: less colors lol) in the form of junk, and bant lists.
I'd like to try conundrum sphinx out somewhere in here. Seems the list I used with crystal ball, vess, and jace TMS could support it quite well.
I also wonder what the options for fauna shaman could be. Lists along the lines of the original play too few creatures. I'll probably throw together some kind of list which runs like <= 10 spells, and the rest creatures -- with shaman you can use doublets and singletons pretty effectively and sun titan would be worth running because the curve would be low, and he'd have a lot of good targets.
currently running:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symu:Turbo Esper Artifact:symu::symb::symw:
Standard:
(Developing)
:symw::symbu::symg:Dark Bant:symg::symub::symw: (a few zendikar block cards from completing )
Casual:
:symb::symw::symg:TOKENS!!!!:symg::symw::symb:
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