Looking at futuresight cards I saw delve on Tombstalker if INN is graveyard based what do you think the chances are that we will see delve in one of the three sets?
I don't think that Delve will ever be in a set again. Given the way cards are designed now, with no drawbacks other than mana cost at all, a mechanic that you can only use once or twice in a game, that also has anti-synergy with other graveyard mechanic as Flashback (which will be in ISD), is very unlikely to be made by R&D. It really saddens me.
I dunno, it would be interesting to print it on a few cards like they seem to do every block with a certain mechanic. It's not really anti-synergistic... it's just not linear (i.e. it's not good to have multiple "delve" cards in the same deck). However, you can have a few of these in any particular deck and be perfectly fine. It DOES fit with the theme of the block, which is basically interacting with the graveyard. It's not going to clash with flashback. Say you build a deck with flashback cards and delve cards. On turn 4 lets say you have 7 cards in the grave and 2 of them have flashback. It's easy enough to just use the 5 that don't for delve purposes. It's not like every card in the set is going to have some kind of graveyard purpose.
Delve with flashback creats tension in the game. Which do I need more? This delve spell or the flashback spell? I think having both in the set would create some interesting choices in game play not to mention deck building. Its always good to have choices during game play.
Delve was cool especially on tombstalker because you essentially got a 5/5 flyer for 2 black mana but Im honestly hoping they can come up with a completely different graveyard mechanic.
Umm... Alright, first of all, the "no drawbacks comment is completely false and totally inflammatory. Ignoring that.
Second, is Flashback confrimed for ISD? I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere, so unless you have a source (and a reliable one at that, and possibly some proof) all you're doing is spouting nonsense.
Tombstalker would probably be the top tier of delve cards, though.....since we just got so many "reduced-cost/nigh-free" spells with Phyrexian mana. Right?
I doubt they'll ever do dredge again. I don't disagree that it's a great mechanic, but no one likes the Legacy abominations that derive from it.
Umm... Alright, first of all, the "no drawbacks comment is completely false and totally inflammatory. Ignoring that.
Second, is Flashback confrimed for ISD? I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere, so unless you have a source (and a reliable one at that, and possibly some proof) all you're doing is spouting nonsense.
its right here in the rumor mill, probably still near the top.
and did you understand his post at all? R&D has stated several times that they prefer all-upside mechanics ie hexproof over shroud to avoid tension. Delve's drawback is not a terrible one but in a set with flashback spells it would still be a drawback. so its not false and totally inflammatory...
sounds like you have your parties muddled up about who is spouting nonsense my friend ;P
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After thinking, if Innistrad is indeed a graveyard set it might be cool to see a delve where you can use your opponents graveyard, It'll actually punish milling yourself because youd be helping your opponent. I think wizards could make it work if they dont go too overboard with it.
Saying Delve won't be reprinted because it conflicts with with Flashback is stupid. The printed Flashback and Threshold in the same set.
1) You're talking about a set that Maro considers a design failure, due to an overabundance of small, complex choices, like flashback vs threshold tension.
2) Flashback and threshold don't conflict nearly as bad. You can still keep or go over threshold with a few flashback cards, because each flashback only pulls one out of the yard. Delve pulls a ton, and not only wrecks any and all other graveyard strategies you'd expect in this box, you can't even put that many delve cards in your deck before they cannabalize themselves.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
1) You're talking about a set that Maro considers a design failure, due to an overabundance of small, complex choices, like flashback vs threshold tension.
2) Flashback and threshold don't conflict nearly as bad. You can still keep or go over threshold with a few flashback cards, because each flashback only pulls one out of the yard. Delve pulls a ton, and not only wrecks any and all other graveyard strategies you'd expect in this box, you can't even put that many delve cards in your deck before they cannabalize themselves.
Well, lets talk about limited because that's where this could potentially be an issue. I think the best way to pull this off is to put in on only a few cards. Every block has a few keyworded abilities that only appear on like 20 cards (if that even). They could design it like that. Also, I think the best way to do it was like the guy said... make cards that are like 2GG for a 3/3 with Delve (that would be like a common/uncommon).
And to address the flashback/delve conflict... how many cards that have a purpose in the graveyard do you think they are going to print? The new block will likely be graveyard themed but it's not like 100% of your cards will have an effect in the graveyard. Just don't remove those cards with delve. In limited, you are going to have more than enough "useless" card to get rid of.
But in addition to that, I don't think R&D really thinks the potential conflict is going to be a big deal. We just went through a limited format with a mechanic that created far more conflicting gameplay. Infect vs non-infect. You couldn't play 50% infect and 50% non-infect creatures and get away with it often. And having played a lot of limited recently that conflict worked out perfectly fine.
Please please please I cant stand it. It's the 99th thread about delve in [INN]. We already agreed that delve is not coming back, unless it's a small part of a small sex, maybe 10 cards max.
Delve, by design, can't be put on many cards because it's anti-synergistic. It wont happen. Please, instead of making more threads, use the search tool.
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... flashback and delve were in the same block (TSP block) so i'm thinking that its gonna be the same... flashback in innistrad and then delve in the following. dont forget gravestorm... Momentary Blink im rooting for your return.
Please please please I cant stand it. It's the 99th thread about delve in [INN]. We already agreed that delve is not coming back, unless it's a small part of a small sex, maybe 10 cards max.
Delve, by design, can't be put on many cards because it's anti-synergistic. It wont happen. Please, instead of making more threads, use the search tool.
Big delve like tombstalker where you loose 6 cards to cast 1 spell... Its still a choice, cards with delve dont make you use them. Its just an extra... So yes, i believe it can come back, and i believe it has potential to come back with lots of cards...
A cost with 1BB and delve would make a perfect cost for a hypnotic specter without random discard, but with normal discard...
for example....
I don't see Delve making a return at all, but if it does come back, it won't be until set 2 since Flashback is mostly confirmed. I don't think they've brought back two mechanics for a base set except ol' Time Spiral.
I don't see Delve making a return at all, but if it does come back, it won't be until set 2 since Flashback is mostly confirmed. I don't think they've brought back two mechanics for a base set except ol' Time Spiral.
Technically, Delve wouldn't be "brought back". Delve was a future mechanic, and thus we've still yet to actually see it. It would technically be a new mechanic whenever we finally see it.
No, I don't believe we'll see delve again. The reason for this is that does not connect with "large graveyard theme", it is even opposite to it. Let me explain my point of view. Delve works only if you have many cards in your graveyard that you can exile to cheapen casting cost of your spells. But if do this, you can't gain advantage from spells with graveyard theme that we have already seen. For example, if you have 20 cards in your graveyard, you can exile 6 of them to play Tombstalker just for 2, but in this case yo can't draw three cards from Visions of beyond and creatures you control enchanted with Wreath of Geists (new green aura from innistrad) will become weaker. All cards from innistrad and m12 imply that you need to keep you graveyard full of cards to gain advantage from the new cards. One thing when you exile two wurms to get 12/12 sutured ghoul and another thing to exile 6-8 cards each turn.
If you ask me which mechanic I see in the new set I'll answer you: it's gravestorm (because INN is about sac creatures, destroy creatures and gravestorm might be in, at least it does not contradict the idea of cards with graveyard theme) and it's aura swap (because m12 has sub-theme of auras. I believe that some auras from Future sight will be reprinted.)
Of course I might be mistaken, I always jump to conclusions, for example I expected to see Steamflogger Boss in SOM, because the picture of it has connection with mirrodin goblins and mirrodin goblins were smart enough to build contraptions. But I was mistaken. One knows what we'll see in INN.
So everyone is just thinking Innistrad has 1 theme... fill the graveyard.
I believe there are 2, fill the graveyard/use the graveyard...
as i believe innistrad is a graveyard themed block, its to do something with your grave... is it use the fullness of the grave (treshold) or use the grave as a resource (delve)??
No, I don't believe we'll see delve again. The reason for this is that does not connect with "large graveyard theme", it is even opposite to it. Let me explain my point of view. Delve works only if you have many cards in your graveyard that you can exile to cheapen casting cost of your spells. But if do this, you can't gain advantage from spells with graveyard theme that we have already seen. For example, if you have 20 cards in your graveyard, you can exile 6 of them to play Tombstalker just for 2, but in this case yo can't draw three cards from Visions of beyond and creatures you control enchanted with Wreath of Geists (new green aura from innistrad) will become weaker. All cards from innistrad and m12 imply that you need to keep you graveyard full of cards to gain advantage from the new cards.
The thing is, if we're talking about constructed... all this talk about "well this card is anti-synergistic with that card" is meaningless. Just don't put those two cards in the same deck. It's not bad design. As someone pointed out, Delve was printed in TSP block... which also had Flashback. So two anti-synergistic cards were printed in the same block. Not to mention Dredge was in the previous block, so you had two MAJORLY anti-synergistic cards in the same standard format for awhile. Goyf was printed in the same set... again, anti-synergistic with Delve. So clearly that sort of thing doesn't matter. Just don't play them in the same deck.
What matters is Limited, and I won't repeat myself because I made my point a few posts ago on limited. But I'll reiterate that I don't think it will effect limited, especially if they design it right. Don't print 5BB for a 5/5 flyer with Delve. Print like 3BB for a 3/2 flyer, so that the "worst" you can do is have a turn 2 3/2 flyer.
Delve doesn't seem to be unlikely if you take into account the Oddysey block. It had threshold and flashback rubbing shoulders with psychatogs, organ grinders and grim lavamancer. Based on this delve might be around but on a low level. It might see more prominance in Rattle. What I think will probably happen is a graveyard variant to morph. The reason for this guess is the "Horror Lurks Within" tag line and the Innistrad set symbol.
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I dunno, it would be interesting to print it on a few cards like they seem to do every block with a certain mechanic. It's not really anti-synergistic... it's just not linear (i.e. it's not good to have multiple "delve" cards in the same deck). However, you can have a few of these in any particular deck and be perfectly fine. It DOES fit with the theme of the block, which is basically interacting with the graveyard. It's not going to clash with flashback. Say you build a deck with flashback cards and delve cards. On turn 4 lets say you have 7 cards in the grave and 2 of them have flashback. It's easy enough to just use the 5 that don't for delve purposes. It's not like every card in the set is going to have some kind of graveyard purpose.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=331976
One of the hidden cards has flashback, leading to the assumption that it will be unlockable come innistrad.
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I doubt they'll ever do dredge again. I don't disagree that it's a great mechanic, but no one likes the Legacy abominations that derive from it.
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its right here in the rumor mill, probably still near the top.
and did you understand his post at all? R&D has stated several times that they prefer all-upside mechanics ie hexproof over shroud to avoid tension. Delve's drawback is not a terrible one but in a set with flashback spells it would still be a drawback. so its not false and totally inflammatory...
sounds like you have your parties muddled up about who is spouting nonsense my friend ;P
EDIT: this thread http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=331976
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1) You're talking about a set that Maro considers a design failure, due to an overabundance of small, complex choices, like flashback vs threshold tension.
2) Flashback and threshold don't conflict nearly as bad. You can still keep or go over threshold with a few flashback cards, because each flashback only pulls one out of the yard. Delve pulls a ton, and not only wrecks any and all other graveyard strategies you'd expect in this box, you can't even put that many delve cards in your deck before they cannabalize themselves.
^this^
i am not expecting to see large scale delve cards but ones that hit say 1-3 cards maybe 4 on a rare cycle. i think that would be perfect way to do it.
Well, lets talk about limited because that's where this could potentially be an issue. I think the best way to pull this off is to put in on only a few cards. Every block has a few keyworded abilities that only appear on like 20 cards (if that even). They could design it like that. Also, I think the best way to do it was like the guy said... make cards that are like 2GG for a 3/3 with Delve (that would be like a common/uncommon).
And to address the flashback/delve conflict... how many cards that have a purpose in the graveyard do you think they are going to print? The new block will likely be graveyard themed but it's not like 100% of your cards will have an effect in the graveyard. Just don't remove those cards with delve. In limited, you are going to have more than enough "useless" card to get rid of.
But in addition to that, I don't think R&D really thinks the potential conflict is going to be a big deal. We just went through a limited format with a mechanic that created far more conflicting gameplay. Infect vs non-infect. You couldn't play 50% infect and 50% non-infect creatures and get away with it often. And having played a lot of limited recently that conflict worked out perfectly fine.
Like this ?
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=132220
Delve, by design, can't be put on many cards because it's anti-synergistic. It wont happen. Please, instead of making more threads, use the search tool.
Big delve like tombstalker where you loose 6 cards to cast 1 spell... Its still a choice, cards with delve dont make you use them. Its just an extra... So yes, i believe it can come back, and i believe it has potential to come back with lots of cards...
A cost with 1BB and delve would make a perfect cost for a hypnotic specter without random discard, but with normal discard...
for example....
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Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
Technically, Delve wouldn't be "brought back". Delve was a future mechanic, and thus we've still yet to actually see it. It would technically be a new mechanic whenever we finally see it.
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If you ask me which mechanic I see in the new set I'll answer you: it's gravestorm (because INN is about sac creatures, destroy creatures and gravestorm might be in, at least it does not contradict the idea of cards with graveyard theme) and it's aura swap (because m12 has sub-theme of auras. I believe that some auras from Future sight will be reprinted.)
Of course I might be mistaken, I always jump to conclusions, for example I expected to see Steamflogger Boss in SOM, because the picture of it has connection with mirrodin goblins and mirrodin goblins were smart enough to build contraptions. But I was mistaken. One knows what we'll see in INN.
I believe there are 2, fill the graveyard/use the graveyard...
as i believe innistrad is a graveyard themed block, its to do something with your grave... is it use the fullness of the grave (treshold) or use the grave as a resource (delve)??
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
The thing is, if we're talking about constructed... all this talk about "well this card is anti-synergistic with that card" is meaningless. Just don't put those two cards in the same deck. It's not bad design. As someone pointed out, Delve was printed in TSP block... which also had Flashback. So two anti-synergistic cards were printed in the same block. Not to mention Dredge was in the previous block, so you had two MAJORLY anti-synergistic cards in the same standard format for awhile. Goyf was printed in the same set... again, anti-synergistic with Delve. So clearly that sort of thing doesn't matter. Just don't play them in the same deck.
What matters is Limited, and I won't repeat myself because I made my point a few posts ago on limited. But I'll reiterate that I don't think it will effect limited, especially if they design it right. Don't print 5BB for a 5/5 flyer with Delve. Print like 3BB for a 3/2 flyer, so that the "worst" you can do is have a turn 2 3/2 flyer.