So, I was just pondering the various types of strange mana symbols we've had over the years, and Phyrexian mana kind of reminds me of the symbols from Shadowmoor block that let you pay either one colored mana or else two colorless mana. It got me thinking about Reaper King, and that made me think if we might see a WUBRG card with all Phyrexian mana? Possibly a creature? Possibly even a new Father of Machines? Just some random ponderings.
(Also, apologies if this somehow ends up as a double post. I could have sworn I posted this same topic earlier today, but it doesn't show up anywhere.)
I'm not so sure about that. I think that from experience we all know that free spells have the potential to become extremely broken.
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Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: One minute you're arguing about meatlof and the next thing you know someone's sex life is being dredged up.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Still, even if you don't pay any mana, that would still be ten life. Two life may not be much for a single card, or even four life. But ten life for one card is a bit much, I think. Even in EDH, I'd say that's kind of expensive for one card.
I guess I feel the life payment balances it out. Two colors and six life for a WUBRG creature might be a more common payment in actual practice if they did make such a card.
Ten life means nothing if you have an arbitrarily large amount of life.
EDIT: But yeah, I'd still pay 4 life and 3 mana for a creature like this. But with what P/T? 6/6?
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Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: One minute you're arguing about meatlof and the next thing you know someone's sex life is being dredged up.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: One minute you're arguing about meatlof and the next thing you know someone's sex life is being dredged up.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Yeah, but most games don't have a player going to ridiculously high life totals like that. At least not in my experience. If there is a deck type that gets to that kind of life, then any card that uses life as a payment is going to be bonkers in that format. I'm not quite sure why "If you have 100 life, then it's cheap" is a valid argument in the current Standard or Extended environment. I'm far less familiar with Vintage and Legacy, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm missing a deck there that reliably gains that much life.
EDIT: I never played against Soul Sisters, so I don't know how much life they typically gain. My bad about that.
Yeah, but most games don't have a player going to ridiculously high life totals like that. At least not in my experience. If there is a deck type that gets to that kind of life, then any card that uses life as a payment is going to be bonkers in that format. I'm not quite sure why "If you have 100 life, then it's cheap" is a valid argument in the current Standard or Extended environment. I'm far less familiar with Vintage and Legacy, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm missing a deck there that reliably gains that much life.
EDIT: I never played against Soul Sisters, so I don't know how much life they typically gain. My bad about that.
Oh, I didn't pay attention to any formats, sorry. I'm just talking theory here. In standard, I doubt that anybody would pay half of their life total and risk a game loss.
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Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: One minute you're arguing about meatlof and the next thing you know someone's sex life is being dredged up.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Ah, I see. Still, from a flavor perspective, it would be awesome to have a Father of Machines that costs (P/W)(P/U)(P/B)(P/R)(P/G). I really want to believe that there's a Good Karn who is once again a Planeswalker, and an Evil Karn, who is the new Father of Machines. It would make for a flavorful mythic rare, if nothing else.
I doubt they'd make a card that cost (P/W)(P/U)(P/B)(P/R)(P/G) if only because of some of the obnoxious things that can be done. Drop it first turn alongside basilisk collar, equip and swing second. If they don't have a kill spell, they're dead very soon. Let alone what can be done in eternal formats + extended.
Hell, if it cost (P/W)(P/U)(P/B)(P/R)(P/G) and is an artifact, it's immune to both gofer and doom blade. If it has a toughness over 3, it takes a double bolt to kill...better start packing in more JtN and Tumble Magnets.
Yeah, but most games don't have a player going to ridiculously high life totals like that. At least not in my experience. If there is a deck type that gets to that kind of life, then any card that uses life as a payment is going to be bonkers in that format. I'm not quite sure why "If you have 100 life, then it's cheap" is a valid argument in the current Standard or Extended environment. I'm far less familiar with Vintage and Legacy, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm missing a deck there that reliably gains that much life.
EDIT: I never played against Soul Sisters, so I don't know how much life they typically gain. My bad about that.
On power level, :sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg: is perfectly fine for a 6/6 (or even a */* where * is your life total) in any format unless it's untargetable/indestructible AND has evasion. As far as vintage and legacy, no one would care. You can put any creature you want onto the battlefield turn 1, already, without paying half your life. Dies to removal is a major issue when you're banking such a giant amount of resources on a creature. It's more an issue of whether R&D wants it to exist or not. Tournament power aside, it's going to really annoying to quite a few people.
On power level, :sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg: is perfectly fine for a 6/6 (or even a */* where * is your life total) in any format unless it's untargetable/indestructible AND has evasion.
No, I'd have to say a 0 6/6 that's chumpable but not destructible/targetable would still be pretty busted in standard. It would be very hard for most decks to recover and advance a game plan after tossing that many blockers out vs a first-turn this, let alone race you without a grip of burn. Keep it vanilla and it might happen.
Still it wouldn't happen this block because it's such a ridiculous infect hoser, and I think Wizards is hoping at least one competitive infect deck arises after NPH. There will be hate against that (all phy-mana kindof is), but not that strong.
I don't see this being any kind of permanent or card that has an immediate and non-scalable board impact. I could see them doing something along the lines of All Suns' Dawn, but history has shown us time and again that free permanents with non-scalable board impact are troublesome: Dark Depths, Protean Hulk + Flash, Narcomoeba, Vengevine, etc.
To elaborate a bit on why this would be busted as a permanent of any kind, it is important to understand that most of the time life, as a resource, does not matter for as long as it remains above zero. This makes effects that deal with life as a payment or a drawback quite difficult to balance, since players are often willing to pay hefty amounts of life if the benefit is reasonable enough (Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Processor, painlands, fetchlands, shocklands).
The reason for this is that spells have more costs than those printed on the piece of cardboard. Mana naturally incurs in an opportunity cost: you may spend 1U to play a creature spell, a bounce spell or a counterspell, but unless you have 3UUU available you won't be able to cast all three on the same turn. Life, sacrifice, loyalty and other alternative costs do not share this opportunity cost (although their drawbacks may be more or less relevant depending on the situation). Hence, these cards are often seen as the core components of engines, combos and similar, which could become quite degenerate unless their opportunity cost is limited in some other way (tap symbol, timing restrictions, etc.)
The most reasonable way to balance a one-time life payment is to make the card a one-shot affair: you get a bonus out of playing the card, you probably get a short-term or long-term benefit out of it, but you don't get a lasting - and thus cumulative - board impact.
I'd pay 10 life for a turn 1 6/6 that they need Journey/Oust/Go for the Throat/Into the Roil to get rid of. I'm getting at least 1 attack out of it if I'm on the play, possibly 2 or 3.
No, I'd have to say a 0 6/6 that's chumpable but not destructible/targetable would still be pretty busted in standard. It would be very hard for most decks to recover and advance a game plan after tossing that many blockers out vs a first-turn this, let alone race you without a grip of burn. Keep it vanilla and it might happen.
Still it wouldn't happen this block because it's such a ridiculous infect hoser, and I think Wizards is hoping at least one competitive infect deck arises after NPH. There will be hate against that (all phy-mana kindof is), but not that strong.
I said it would be annoying. It's also only a 4 of at max, though, and can eat removal/counters like any other creature. Something as simple as Unsummon/PTE can eat your 10 life investment for a single mana, though. There's a reason Demon of Death's Gate isn't played competitively, now.
I don't see this being any kind of permanent or card that has an immediate and non-scalable board impact. I could see them doing something along the lines of All Suns' Dawn, but history has shown us time and again that free permanents with non-scalable board impact are troublesome: Dark Depths, Protean Hulk + Flash, Narcomoeba, Vengevine, etc.
To elaborate a bit on why this would be busted as a permanent of any kind, it is important to understand that most of the time life, as a resource, does not matter for as long as it remains above zero. This makes effects that deal with life as a payment or a drawback quite difficult to balance, since players are often willing to pay hefty amounts of life if the benefit is reasonable enough (Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Processor, painlands, fetchlands, shocklands).
The reason for this is that spells have more costs than those printed on the piece of cardboard. Mana naturally incurs in an opportunity cost: you may spend 1U to play a creature spell, a bounce spell or a counterspell, but unless you have 3UUU available you won't be able to cast all three on the same turn. Life, sacrifice, loyalty and other alternative costs do not share this opportunity cost (although their drawbacks may be more or less relevant depending on the situation). Hence, these cards are often seen as the core components of engines, combos and similar, which could become quite degenerate unless their opportunity cost is limited in some other way (tap symbol, timing restrictions, etc.)
The most reasonable way to balance a one-time life payment is to make the card a one-shot affair: you get a bonus out of playing the card, you probably get a short-term or long-term benefit out of it, but you don't get a lasting - and thus cumulative - board impact.
Creatures have plenty of cheap, maindeckable removal available, though, as well as counterspells and discard. Vengevine is recurrable unless exiled. Marit Lage is uncounterable, indestructible, and kills people in one swing. Protean Hulk loves the graveyard. Marit Lage isn't played in eternal and Hulk/Vengevine were played with one specific card. I think balancing a creature with a huge life payment is more than possible.
Why does it have to be a creature? Why can't it be something like this:
:sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg:
Enchantment
All mana costs you would pay can be paid with Phyrexian mana instead (For example, if you would pay as a cost, you may instead pay )
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Is this 'ok?' I mean even with this, you would get a huge tempo swing ON THE FIRST TURN of the game. Although ... it still dies to removal.
It would be hugely problematic when you could back it up with countermagic the turn it's played; even down ten life, you have pretty much won if you're holding Force of Will, Spell Snare, daze and the like.
How about Molimo, Maro Sorcerer or some kind of 'tog for :sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg:?
We already have Allosaurous Rider which I've never seen in a tournament. I'd say it's probably safe enough that it'll never break out of casual unless it has evasion/protection of some kind.
It would be hugely problematic when you could back it up with countermagic the turn it's played; even down ten life, you have pretty much won if you're holding Force of Will, Spell Snare, daze and the like.
Exactly. Force of Will can back up a turn one play like that. As we all know (hopefully) free spells can really go awry, let's hope to God WotC doesn't screw this up like they did affinity for artifacts.
By the way, how come they never expanded on the whole affinity thing? Possibilities include:
Affinity for enchantments.
Affinity for creatures (not Convoke).
Affinity for cards in your graveyard.
Affinity for white, blue, etc. permanents.
Affinity for cards in your hand.
Affinity for spells cast (!)
Affinity for creatures that died this turn.
Affinity for creature tokens.
Affinity for certain tribes (Elf, Goblin, Zombie)
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God listens ... TO SLAYER!!!!!
Originally posted by mondu_the_fat: One minute you're arguing about meatlof and the next thing you know someone's sex life is being dredged up.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Creatures have plenty of cheap, maindeckable removal available, though, as well as counterspells and discard. Vengevine is recurrable unless exiled. Marit Lage is uncounterable, indestructible, and kills people in one swing. Protean Hulk loves the graveyard. Marit Lage isn't played in eternal and Hulk/Vengevine were played with one specific card. I think balancing a creature with a huge life payment is more than possible.
As pointed out by others before me, such a card would have zero opportunity cost: you are literally losing nothing relevant, be it cards in hand, tempo or board presence. This puts you at a huge advantage against opponents who have not only to find an answer to your creature, but also answers to your answer, the means to pay for all those spells at a point in the game when mana is scarce, etc.
Magic is meant to be played for a longer time span than the average poker hand in order to be enjoyable. Reducing an entire game to the relative strengths and weaknesses of opening hands does nothing for the game except reduce it to an awkward and expensive Poker variant.
i think a creature is the safe way to make work that theory because in all formats are ways to take care via counter spells or removal but in my opinion all decks will run this and is easy, why?. to much tempo, powerful, it take resources for you opp and the most important thing, this creature not want board resurces!!! so you still drop threats as normal
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see this vid ">vintage metagame playing:vintage:BDARK' timesB legacy:WWdeath n' taxisWW
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Originally Posted by sephirothx
Trust me, if your choice is between Jace in the mail or a girl in your bed, take the girl and wait for Jace to rotate. Even when you lose in bed, you still win...kinda.
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(Also, apologies if this somehow ends up as a double post. I could have sworn I posted this same topic earlier today, but it doesn't show up anywhere.)
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
I guess I feel the life payment balances it out. Two colors and six life for a WUBRG creature might be a more common payment in actual practice if they did make such a card.
EDIT: But yeah, I'd still pay 4 life and 3 mana for a creature like this. But with what P/T? 6/6?
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
If I had 100 life, I'd pay only 10 life for a 90/90 creature.... that's the problem.
(P/W)(P/U)(P/B)(P/R)(P/G)
Creature - Avatar
Flying, trample
6/6
Is this 'ok?' I mean even with this, you would get a huge tempo swing ON THE FIRST TURN of the game. Although ... it still dies to removal.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
EDIT: I never played against Soul Sisters, so I don't know how much life they typically gain. My bad about that.
Oh, I didn't pay attention to any formats, sorry. I'm just talking theory here. In standard, I doubt that anybody would pay half of their life total and risk a game loss.
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
Hell, if it cost (P/W)(P/U)(P/B)(P/R)(P/G) and is an artifact, it's immune to both gofer and doom blade. If it has a toughness over 3, it takes a double bolt to kill...better start packing in more JtN and Tumble Magnets.
On power level, :sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg: is perfectly fine for a 6/6 (or even a */* where * is your life total) in any format unless it's untargetable/indestructible AND has evasion. As far as vintage and legacy, no one would care. You can put any creature you want onto the battlefield turn 1, already, without paying half your life. Dies to removal is a major issue when you're banking such a giant amount of resources on a creature. It's more an issue of whether R&D wants it to exist or not. Tournament power aside, it's going to really annoying to quite a few people.
No, I'd have to say a 0 6/6 that's chumpable but not destructible/targetable would still be pretty busted in standard. It would be very hard for most decks to recover and advance a game plan after tossing that many blockers out vs a first-turn this, let alone race you without a grip of burn. Keep it vanilla and it might happen.
Still it wouldn't happen this block because it's such a ridiculous infect hoser, and I think Wizards is hoping at least one competitive infect deck arises after NPH. There will be hate against that (all phy-mana kindof is), but not that strong.
To elaborate a bit on why this would be busted as a permanent of any kind, it is important to understand that most of the time life, as a resource, does not matter for as long as it remains above zero. This makes effects that deal with life as a payment or a drawback quite difficult to balance, since players are often willing to pay hefty amounts of life if the benefit is reasonable enough (Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Phyrexian Processor, painlands, fetchlands, shocklands).
The reason for this is that spells have more costs than those printed on the piece of cardboard. Mana naturally incurs in an opportunity cost: you may spend 1U to play a creature spell, a bounce spell or a counterspell, but unless you have 3UUU available you won't be able to cast all three on the same turn. Life, sacrifice, loyalty and other alternative costs do not share this opportunity cost (although their drawbacks may be more or less relevant depending on the situation). Hence, these cards are often seen as the core components of engines, combos and similar, which could become quite degenerate unless their opportunity cost is limited in some other way (tap symbol, timing restrictions, etc.)
The most reasonable way to balance a one-time life payment is to make the card a one-shot affair: you get a bonus out of playing the card, you probably get a short-term or long-term benefit out of it, but you don't get a lasting - and thus cumulative - board impact.
I said it would be annoying. It's also only a 4 of at max, though, and can eat removal/counters like any other creature. Something as simple as Unsummon/PTE can eat your 10 life investment for a single mana, though. There's a reason Demon of Death's Gate isn't played competitively, now. Creatures have plenty of cheap, maindeckable removal available, though, as well as counterspells and discard. Vengevine is recurrable unless exiled. Marit Lage is uncounterable, indestructible, and kills people in one swing. Protean Hulk loves the graveyard. Marit Lage isn't played in eternal and Hulk/Vengevine were played with one specific card. I think balancing a creature with a huge life payment is more than possible.
:sympw::sympu::sympb::sympr::sympg:
Enchantment
All mana costs you would pay can be paid with Phyrexian mana instead (For example, if you would pay as a cost, you may instead pay )
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
It would be hugely problematic when you could back it up with countermagic the turn it's played; even down ten life, you have pretty much won if you're holding Force of Will, Spell Snare, daze and the like.
W White Stax
UGBR Lands
"Beh'smigidus"
We already have Allosaurous Rider which I've never seen in a tournament. I'd say it's probably safe enough that it'll never break out of casual unless it has evasion/protection of some kind.
Exactly. Force of Will can back up a turn one play like that. As we all know (hopefully) free spells can really go awry, let's hope to God WotC doesn't screw this up like they did affinity for artifacts.
By the way, how come they never expanded on the whole affinity thing? Possibilities include:
Affinity for enchantments.
Affinity for creatures (not Convoke).
Affinity for cards in your graveyard.
Affinity for white, blue, etc. permanents.
Affinity for cards in your hand.
Affinity for spells cast (!)
Affinity for creatures that died this turn.
Affinity for creature tokens.
Affinity for certain tribes (Elf, Goblin, Zombie)
My playgroup: four people total.
We use the Legacy B&R list.
My meta consists of combo, control and some aggro / midrange decks.
My group uses proxies, so budget is not an issue. Because of this, things can get out of hand.
As pointed out by others before me, such a card would have zero opportunity cost: you are literally losing nothing relevant, be it cards in hand, tempo or board presence. This puts you at a huge advantage against opponents who have not only to find an answer to your creature, but also answers to your answer, the means to pay for all those spells at a point in the game when mana is scarce, etc.
Magic is meant to be played for a longer time span than the average poker hand in order to be enjoyable. Reducing an entire game to the relative strengths and weaknesses of opening hands does nothing for the game except reduce it to an awkward and expensive Poker variant.
:sympw::sympw::sympu::sympu::sympb::sympb::sympr::sympr::sympg::sympg:
Protection from Everything
Infect
11/11
playing:vintage: BDARK' timesB
legacy: WWdeath n' taxisWW
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