It's not dismissive, it's descriptive.
An underlying logic that doesn't actually work for everyone (since there are people like me who don't agree with this uncannny valley effect explanation and also don't feel it) is still irrational. There are no objective reasons for it, that's all that means. A rational argument would work without subjective feelings. And that's ok, I am not saying that an irrational argument can't have merit, but it also only has that for the people feeling like this.
And my bad if I misinterpreted it as goalpost moving, just felt that way because the same people gave these different answers over time and didn't really answer to my objections to them (or simply dismissed them). But you are right, it could be that they simply have trouble describing the problem.
I personally don't feel your points, but it's ok. I guess we simply have to agree to disagree.
I guess we do. You're using a very scientific definition of logic, where something built on it has be reproduceable for 100% of the people. I'm not sure how much merit this has considering the thing we are talking about ... art, which is inherently subjective (and even MtG game design in a broader sense, which has a lot more technical aspects, is often influenced by how designers or playtesters feel about stuff). When I'm using "logic" here, I mean "a well-reasoned description of cause and effect that resonates with the biggest possible amount of people who are having a certain reaction to something." (Which does seem to fit your "descriptive" comment.) The traditional uncanny valley effect (related to human-like robots/androids/etc.) is generally accepted as "a thing," but I bet that there are people out there who don't get it at all. We're not talking about an exact science here, but if that's what you meant with "irrational" I can accept that.
Edit: I'm still kind of curious how the people that are fine with the DJ art would react to a card art featuring a weapon that is, in terms of outward appearance, a real-world glock, but shoots little fireballs instead of bullets ... and its user is wearing some big pauldron fantasy armor.
That's what I meant.
I would have nothing against firearms in Magic. They wouldn't even have to make it that 'magic-y'. The crossbows of Innistrad were pretty normal looking too after all. I always thought of these lines as rather arbitrary. In a wild west world I would actually love if they get over their gun-phobia. I would appreciate it if they made the guns a bit more fantastic than normal guns, but the whole 'guns are absolutely the line that must not be crossed' thing is weird. They do have to fit the world in which they appear though (as I said, wild west for example). Again, this is my opinion, and I understand that other people feel different. But these are not hard, objective lines that somehow define what is fantasy or acceptable in Magic and what is not. It's people's opinions and tastes, and those can as we all know differ wildly.
So, why don't we have more of a problem with Seller of Songbirds it's just a seller of Songbirds, something going that exists in markets throughout history.
Yeah, something that bothers me a bit is the subtle goalpost move that seems to be going on in this thread, first it is too technologically advanced, then too modern, now too mundane (which I find hilarious seeing as I have never seen a DJ using holografic technology on fire and exoskeletons before). If it is some form of emotional reaction then that's fine, but it is obvious that we had mundane things in Magic before, and this is not a mundane DJ. If you simply dislike the art or the specific combinations of elements in the picture, fine. But this is definitely not something Neon Dynasty specific and it is not a rational argument against its themes.
I think it's not so much "people subtly moving goalposts just to piss you off" but "people trying to explain the reasons behind their reaction." Sometimes you don't get it quite right on the first try, you know?
As SecretInfiltrator pointed out, it's not so much that there's a a line where fantasy stops being fantasy. It's more of an uncanny valley situation. On the one end you have old-timey sword and sorcery fantasy, and as you add more modern or modern-adjacent elements, you start dipping into a valley that doesn't feel far enough removed from reality to make you feel like you're in a fantasy setting (some genres, like urban fantasy, are built around this disconnect and are able to somewhat avoid this issue). But once you go past the dip, you start getting into the realm of fantasy again, because it doesn't really matter if something like a teleporter is "hard science" or magic.
As for your points:
- The mundane part about the picture is not the exoskeleton, or the fact that it's "on fire." The mundane part is the base concept (a DJ), and all the extra flair that's thrown on top does a bad job of "covering it up," so to say. (Gotta throw in another "for some people" here before I get accused of presenting my opinion as objective fact...)
- Mundaneness isn't the only factor, it has to be mundane and omnipresent in a modern-day sense to fall into the uncanny valley. Sure, Seller of Songbirds is just a merchant, pretty mundane. And I'll concur that there are plenty of pet shops in the real world. But how many pet shops have you seen that sell exclusively songbirds in 20XX? In contrast, DJs are basically everywhere, even the small city I grew up in had some. There are many more examples for this ... for example, crossbows are used even today, but you don't see people casually walking around with them. This makes it easy to make crossbows feel like they belong in a fantasy setting.
- I think dismissing everyone who's having a somewhat negative direction to this one particular art piece as irrational is a bit harsh. As I said in a previous post, there is a real reason for why the closest equivalent to real guns we've seen in modern Magic (don't bring up that one old set where they did it one time, I know it exists) is "wrist-mounted dragon cannons" and "hookshot launchers." Wizards is aware of the underlying potential for visual conflict, and is clearly acting upon it. This whole set is just an instance of WotC testing out the waters of how far they can go, and for the most part they've done a pretty good job so far (imo ... just in case). But under these conditions, some things that don't fall into the uncanny valley for some people are going to do so for others - the reaction is emtional, but there is an underlying logic to this.
It's not dismissive, it's descriptive.
An underlying logic that doesn't actually work for everyone (since there are people like me who don't agree with this uncannny valley effect explanation and also don't feel it) is still irrational. There are no objective reasons for it, that's all that means. A rational argument would work without subjective feelings. And that's ok, I am not saying that an irrational argument can't have merit, but it also only has that for the people feeling like this.
And my bad if I misinterpreted it as goalpost moving, just felt that way because the same people gave these different answers over time and didn't really answer to my objections to them (or simply dismissed them). But you are right, it could be that they simply have trouble describing the problem.
I personally don't feel your points, but it's ok. I guess we simply have to agree to disagree.
]Let me get this straight: the DJ is over the line because it's something that exists in modern life, but a mechsuit, which would probably exist in the far future, is allowed? I thought the problem was DJs are too futuristic for the time period we want Magic's fantasy to be based on? Are we moving goalposts now?
Pretty sure the issue is that it's just a DJ. There's nothing fantastical about it because the fantasy elements there (the exoskeleton) is ill explained and has no reason to be there. It honestly looks like a skin from League of Legends or any other MOBA and therefore loses any identity to Magic.
If they had made that something connected to Kamigawa (make it a fox, moonfolk, or them dressed like a ninja so we can have a Ninja Bard) then I'm sure less would have an issue with it, but unfortunately it just looks like a DJ, plain as can be.
So, why don't we have more of a problem with Seller of Songbirds it's just a seller of Songbirds, something going that exists in markets throughout history.
Yeah, something that bothers me a bit is the subtle goalpost move that seems to be going on in this thread, first it is too technologically advanced, then too modern, now too mundane (which I find hilarious seeing as I have never seen a DJ using holografic technology on fire and exoskeletons before). If it is some form of emotional reaction then that's fine, but it is obvious that we had mundane things in Magic before, and this is not a mundane DJ. If you simply dislike the art or the specific combinations of elements in the picture, fine. But this is definitely not something Neon Dynasty specific and it is not a rational argument against its themes.
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
I wonder if its because this style of fantasy is most often written for young adult audiences? Integration between our world and another has long been a troupe to help younger people engage with fantasy (Narnia, Garth Nix work, Darren Shan, Phillip Pullman, Twilight, I could go on) which perhaps makes us instinctively think any modern day fantasy setting is intrinsically childish, even if it isn't. Certainly I felt that way when I read the Rivers of London books even though they are definitely aimed at an adult audience!
You might have a point, though the difference to Kamigawa is that these YA novels usually deal with the integration by assuming some kind of "veil" between our society and the other, that both exist in parallel only because one or both sides don't know the other exists. This is certainly not the case here in Kamigawa and quite frankly I can't think of many fantasy novels from the top of my head that have a world both fully integrate its fantasy elements AND still undergo a (mostly) seperated industrial revolution. I think people also underestimate how little technology based not on Magic (exclusively, we still don't have any details about it aside from the fact that electricity is being used) can diverge overall. You can give it a fantasy flair of course, but ultimately the idea of a technology will be limited by physical laws (again, if Magic isn't that involved, and if it is, isn't just used to upgrade the technology in some way). A pyramid in Amonkhet might diverge from ours by virtue of having their top parts levitating, but they are still pyramids, they are built like them and have presumably a similar function. Same goes for other architecture, clothing, swords, crossbows, airships and yes, computers and DJs as well. It seems the only difference is that we don't experience many of these things in our normal life anymore, but a) I don't see many holograms or exoskeleton suits around in our daily lifes and b) Magic has had tons of mundane stuff in it that doesn't considerably differ from normal life. Sure, the concept might still be stupid, but not because something is fundamentally wrong with having a DJ in MtG but because of some questionable design choices when it comes to their appearance. Same goes for computers, drones etc. But oh well, it is as it is, some people don't like this direction because they simply don't feel like it fits for them, and that is fine. I just can't relate.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
you can try to analyze it all you want, you can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day for some of us its just too modern and out of place with what magic has defined itself as for the past 30 years. much like seeing rick wield lucille. the artist did a wonderful job, but the concept is just too "not magic" for a lot of people and analysis won't change that.
Well I am not trying to analyse that feeling away, that would be foolhardy. I was just pointing out why I don't quite get that viewpoint (and no, the Universe Beyond cards are an entirely different matter so that is comparing apples with oranges) and wanted to present a different one as well as ask where the (from my point of view) arbitrary distinction of "only this level of modernity and technology is ok" comes from and whether there are actual arguments for it. If it is simply about it not feeling alright on an irrational level or because of personal preconceptions then that's also fine.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
Obviously finding it chidish is totally subjective, but still remains the fact that it feels out of place, like if it was taken from another game or from another visual/narrative univers and put into MTG. I think it's a matter of internal coherence in building a visual and conceptual style for a certain game/universe. If we take a character from the WOW universe, lets say a knight, and we put it into an high fantasy plane like bant or eldraine, it still feels out of place even if it is a kinght within a world made of castles, dragons and kings. To sum it up i think that partially is a subjective matter and partially not, and it's not a matter of technology is a matter of fitting or not into a brand that has some peculiar traits that distiguish it from others. Imho, a flying warship or a robot fits into MTG, while an airplane or a moto doesn't.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
I think the biggest problem that people have, specifically with the DJ art, is that Magical technology is fine, as long as it can be distinguished from scientific technology.
Take for instance 'Warmachine' (from privateer press), the way magic is represented as the power source for its casters looks fantasy as the magic has a specific design away from a scientific look (though its hard to see on the Warmachines themselves, but its a steam punk setting).
Here in this DJ image, the 'monitors' look to clean so its very hard to tell if its generated from magic or science and therefore if you placed the art next to a cyber punk image, you would think it was a regular science based cyber punk image.
If the 'monitors' looked a bit more rough or sigiled (or had some kind of shamantic/ritural connected look (possibly with scrolls or crystal etc)), then it would give it a bit more of a fantasy look.
Imagine if magic was drawn from devises that looked like old fashioned Japanese lanterns, then with a few of those hanging about with some swirls coming from them, it gives a bit more fantasy feel.
I can understand why people dont like this image but i can see where people are okay with it. Myself i fall just slightly on the unhappy side of it.
~Funk Pirate
As I previously mentioned, I somewhat understand this, but again, it doesn't explain why science can't be part of fantasy too and why technology going beyond gas lanterns and crossbows in a fantasy world HAS to incorporate magic and fantastic trappings to be "fantasy" enough. Why not have a world like Kamigawa now,in which both science developed while Magic is still part of everyday life, but without Magic necessarily being a component of the technology? Does electricity not work the same way there as it has to in our world? The presence of lightning storms seems to indicate otherwise.
So it seems that the people of Kamigawa, perhaps still under the impression of the Kami war, turned towards understanding the fundamental forces of nature directly instead of by proxy through the Kami, discovered steam power and later electricity (perhaps strengthening both via magic, who knows at this point)and ultimately underwent an industrial and later a computer revolution. But the Kami are still present, magicians channeling them still exist, and there is obvious influence both on the Kami and on the technology without either being interconnected (well until recently). The world also urbanized and jobs like DJs and informaticians (I guess) came into being. Why is this not a legitimate fantasy world?
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
I don't think the problem is the technolgy-driven structure of this set, as other have said before, we already had "hi-tech" planes before. The matter, for me at least, is that this set, this picture in particular, feels out of place with the general MTG world. I'll try to explain myself better; take two futuristic narrative universes like Star Wars and Dune, while they are both technologically advanced, each in its own way, a laser DJ would feel out of place in Dune but not so much in Star Wars. In the same way the robots of Kaladesh or the Thran tecnology feel adequate and fitting in the MTG world, while this DJ, imho, doesn't make the cut, it feels childish and stupid in the context of MTG.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
What's the point of the jet expelling exoskeleton? What's it's purpose? Is she/he going to go anime boxing tournament after the futuristic rave? What do those toy extending fists do that help this person play Caramel Dansen?
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
There's very much a line for me with a ******* dj spinning hologram vinyl in Magic (a game set in fantasy. Yes, even the old stuff and Kaladesh), but I doubt we'll ever agree on this. I'm not trying to sound snarky by the way, art is subjective so who cares either way nobody is right or wrong with this stuff, I just hope future sets don't get as high tech as this.
Well, the good thing is that Magic is one of the few settings were there are always other worlds and scenarios. Since I am not the biggest fan of standard high fantasy (absolute monarchy being often portrayed as a great thing already puts me off somewhat, but that's another matter entirely), I may be much more open to the lines being blurred, to see new scenarios created from mixing tech with magic and modern societal trappings in fantasy worlds. Kaladesh, Ravnica, Kamigawa, Strixhaven, even Innistrad, Dominaria and New Phyrexia in some aspects are all more or less farther towards modernity on the "modern society/technology" scale than the likes of Eldraine, Bant, Theros, Amonkhet, Dominaria in other aspects etc. I for one hope for a vast variety in the future too and that includes further high-tech planes, but ALSO very primitive ones (Muraganda or some other prehistoric set would also be welcome in the future). I appreciate Eldraine and Bant, but if every set would be about knights and kingoms I would be bored out of my mind. The variety is what drew me to Magic in the first place (during OG Kamigawa no less).
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I personally don't think it's necessarily the tech level itself. DJs seem perfectly fine in a setting like kamigawa or kaladesh. But the issue I have with the artwork is that it looks too much like the real world. He's not operating some fantastic music instrument, he's literally using a turntable. And his headphones look like something you can actually buy at the store. It's too close to the real world. Remove the weird exoskeleton (that serves no purpose as far as I can tell, why does a DJ need an exosuit?) and it looks like art for a game set in modern times.
In fact my first reaction when I saw the artwork was that it's either a crossover (like from the fortnite set) or an un-set artwork.
There's a way to have "modern technology" in a fantasy setting without falling into the uncanny art valley.
The nezumi biker for example? I don't mind that. The fact that the wheels are actually magic energy whatevers instead of wheels removes it far enough away from the real world. Truth be told a bike is basic enough (it's just an engine with wheels and a seat on top) that I probably wouldn't even mind one in a setting like kaladesh or kamigawa either, even if it's mostly mechanical (with a magic fueled engine).
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
I have explained it a few times, but the gist of it is, I think this is way to "modern sci fi" compared to Kaladesh and old brothers war stuff because tis visually looks too "modern" compared to what we've seen in magic.
Even the old high tech stuff was still very much rooted in "fantasy" art direction. Kinda like how something like steampunk styles has stuff like air balloons and fairly high tech stuff (Like the old robot armies and Kaladesh vehicles etc), but again, it was all rooted in "fantasy" style. There's this tech threshold that they never go past.
The biker mice from mars I could kinda accept, because of vehhicles we've seen previously (even though the artwork here again looks very modern sci fi, and yes, even compared to the old stuff and fleetwheel cruisers and ***** like that) The whole art direction of the modern aspects are way too modern. I like what we've seen of the ancient stuff though, and the full art lands depicting old Kamigawa are some of my favourite lands they have ever made.
The DJ in particular is an absolutely terrible piece of artwork that doesn't blend the old and new meeting. It's a ******* dj standing with exo skeleton stuff on his body with ******* rope tying the fingers and plates together because "oh this will totally look like a nod to old school samurais" while he's ******* spinning hologram vinyl with pyro shooting out of his shoulders. In a club.
The rope between the exo skeleton fingers is the worst part of the whole thing to me. It just looks so dumb and lazy. So they have giant skyskraper cities holograms, electricity everywere and all types of *****, but you need rope for the fingers??? It's so dumb. I can't get over how bad that image is really. Looks like some loading screen for a fan made dota 2 skin or something. Terrible terrible terrible piece of art to showcase Magic.
I love sci fi stuff in general way more than fantasy stuff, but Magic to me is fantasy game and not futuristic and modern.
It's all highly subjective though, so I'm not saying other people can't like it or disagree, I just find the futuristic stuff way too modern (again, yes, even compared to old brothers war stuff. Very much so)
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
a DJ playing some music isn't even showing the height of Kamigawan technology in this era. If you don't like futuristic technology in your fantasy stories then Magic hasn't been up your alley since pretty much its beginning (see the Thran's satellite launches and all the robots of the Brother's War for example).
I disagree and I have explained a few times why the futuristic art style in this is way too sci fi, and that's coming from somebody who's favourite plane in terms of art direction is Kaladesh (the most "high tech" plane we've previously seen).
The DJ ***** is just too much for me. It looks ******* ridiculous to me.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I wonder why they changed the Kitsunes' faces? I know the originals where weird, but I always felt it fit the theme.
Yeah, the new kitsune seem to have a lack of facial diversity in comparison, as if all of them subscribed to the same facial powder and face paint. I hope for a story with strong flavour about why the kitsunes' faces changed that way in-universe (rather like the one that Wizards has to give for how the orochi lost their legs and the one they should give for how kappas have been brought back (or at least "brought back") from Shell of the Last Kappa-implied extinction - the kappa one they can explain with cloning, the orochi...).
I always felt that the Kitsune faces in the original were all almost impossible to differentiate from each other. I prefer the newer version. And that's most certainly not a Kappa, but an Akki, a goblin from Kamigawa, which ironically were modelled after Kappas in the original Kamigawa block (while still implying that there were actual Kappas once). I could see them having the Orochi lose their legs to change them from Snakes to Naga (which I wouldn't be in favor of, but oh well). The reason for that change could be anything, it has been a while after all since the Kami War.
I mean... what did you all expect? I was almost fearing that the cyberpunk elements would be relatively rare in this set with how little we saw them in the rest of the art so far (and how downplayed they seem to be). If you do such a thing, then go all the way or go home. The story that has been posted previously already stated that the big cities at least use electricity (so much that Kamis of technology and electricity seem to be common) for computers, a form of internet, touch pads, robot drones, camera surveillance, holograms... a DJ playing some music isn't even showing the height of Kamigawan technology in this era. If you don't like futuristic technology in your fantasy stories then Magic hasn't been up your alley since pretty much its beginning (see the Thran's satellite launches and all the robots of the Brother's War for example).
I have to say though that this set is truly in danger of having to cram way too much stuff in, I would have preferred a two set structure (and Innistrad 3 could have been done in one set in my opinion). I am still very much excited for it.
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That's what I meant.
I would have nothing against firearms in Magic. They wouldn't even have to make it that 'magic-y'. The crossbows of Innistrad were pretty normal looking too after all. I always thought of these lines as rather arbitrary. In a wild west world I would actually love if they get over their gun-phobia. I would appreciate it if they made the guns a bit more fantastic than normal guns, but the whole 'guns are absolutely the line that must not be crossed' thing is weird. They do have to fit the world in which they appear though (as I said, wild west for example). Again, this is my opinion, and I understand that other people feel different. But these are not hard, objective lines that somehow define what is fantasy or acceptable in Magic and what is not. It's people's opinions and tastes, and those can as we all know differ wildly.
It's not dismissive, it's descriptive.
An underlying logic that doesn't actually work for everyone (since there are people like me who don't agree with this uncannny valley effect explanation and also don't feel it) is still irrational. There are no objective reasons for it, that's all that means. A rational argument would work without subjective feelings. And that's ok, I am not saying that an irrational argument can't have merit, but it also only has that for the people feeling like this.
And my bad if I misinterpreted it as goalpost moving, just felt that way because the same people gave these different answers over time and didn't really answer to my objections to them (or simply dismissed them). But you are right, it could be that they simply have trouble describing the problem.
I personally don't feel your points, but it's ok. I guess we simply have to agree to disagree.
Yeah, something that bothers me a bit is the subtle goalpost move that seems to be going on in this thread, first it is too technologically advanced, then too modern, now too mundane (which I find hilarious seeing as I have never seen a DJ using holografic technology on fire and exoskeletons before). If it is some form of emotional reaction then that's fine, but it is obvious that we had mundane things in Magic before, and this is not a mundane DJ. If you simply dislike the art or the specific combinations of elements in the picture, fine. But this is definitely not something Neon Dynasty specific and it is not a rational argument against its themes.
You might have a point, though the difference to Kamigawa is that these YA novels usually deal with the integration by assuming some kind of "veil" between our society and the other, that both exist in parallel only because one or both sides don't know the other exists. This is certainly not the case here in Kamigawa and quite frankly I can't think of many fantasy novels from the top of my head that have a world both fully integrate its fantasy elements AND still undergo a (mostly) seperated industrial revolution. I think people also underestimate how little technology based not on Magic (exclusively, we still don't have any details about it aside from the fact that electricity is being used) can diverge overall. You can give it a fantasy flair of course, but ultimately the idea of a technology will be limited by physical laws (again, if Magic isn't that involved, and if it is, isn't just used to upgrade the technology in some way). A pyramid in Amonkhet might diverge from ours by virtue of having their top parts levitating, but they are still pyramids, they are built like them and have presumably a similar function. Same goes for other architecture, clothing, swords, crossbows, airships and yes, computers and DJs as well. It seems the only difference is that we don't experience many of these things in our normal life anymore, but a) I don't see many holograms or exoskeleton suits around in our daily lifes and b) Magic has had tons of mundane stuff in it that doesn't considerably differ from normal life. Sure, the concept might still be stupid, but not because something is fundamentally wrong with having a DJ in MtG but because of some questionable design choices when it comes to their appearance. Same goes for computers, drones etc. But oh well, it is as it is, some people don't like this direction because they simply don't feel like it fits for them, and that is fine. I just can't relate.
Well I am not trying to analyse that feeling away, that would be foolhardy. I was just pointing out why I don't quite get that viewpoint (and no, the Universe Beyond cards are an entirely different matter so that is comparing apples with oranges) and wanted to present a different one as well as ask where the (from my point of view) arbitrary distinction of "only this level of modernity and technology is ok" comes from and whether there are actual arguments for it. If it is simply about it not feeling alright on an irrational level or because of personal preconceptions then that's also fine.
It might not fit into Eldraine or Bant, but if the WoW universe suddenly became a plane in the multiverse (ignoring its own multiversal cosmology for now), the style would simply be the way it is distinct from other worlds. Goblins from Kylem would look totally out of place on Mirrodin too. Kaladesh technology would stand out on Ravnica (and it did visually when Dovin Baan introduced Thopters to the Azorius). Pretty much everyone on original Mirrodin would stand out on any of the other planes we have seen so far, perhapos with the exception of Esper (and even there the styles would be clashing). I came to MtG specifically because of this kind of variety. Each plane can be entirely different from each other (with the obvious exception of the five mana colors system), including in style. Perhaps that's why I don't get where the fundamental problem lies. The execution on the other hand is another matter, but I will withhold my judgement on that until we get more information.
As I previously mentioned, I somewhat understand this, but again, it doesn't explain why science can't be part of fantasy too and why technology going beyond gas lanterns and crossbows in a fantasy world HAS to incorporate magic and fantastic trappings to be "fantasy" enough. Why not have a world like Kamigawa now,in which both science developed while Magic is still part of everyday life, but without Magic necessarily being a component of the technology? Does electricity not work the same way there as it has to in our world? The presence of lightning storms seems to indicate otherwise.
So it seems that the people of Kamigawa, perhaps still under the impression of the Kami war, turned towards understanding the fundamental forces of nature directly instead of by proxy through the Kami, discovered steam power and later electricity (perhaps strengthening both via magic, who knows at this point)and ultimately underwent an industrial and later a computer revolution. But the Kami are still present, magicians channeling them still exist, and there is obvious influence both on the Kami and on the technology without either being interconnected (well until recently). The world also urbanized and jobs like DJs and informaticians (I guess) came into being. Why is this not a legitimate fantasy world?
Ultimately it seems to go against the gut-feeling of a lot of people, and I guess a similar reaction was given to Kaladesh (industry through magical resource, but other fantasy elements downplayed) and Ravnica (highly urbanized, but industry entirely controlled and done via magic and mages). I just hope this third possibility (industry and magic parallel to each other), which is pretty damn rare in fantasy is looked upon a bit warmer once we know more about the set.
But then why? In Dune lasers are rarely used anyway because of their interactions with the shield technology, and the focus is firmly on massive political plots and/or non-urban regions. But no one can tell me that DJs (or an equivalent job) don't exist at all in the Dune universe. So it must be instead the focus on it that feels wrong. This set is about cyberpunk though, a very deeply urban genre, as well as about the dichotomy of tradition vs progress. So the focus on something so urban and modern as a DJ doesn't strike me as odd or unfitting, but simply following through on that theme, same goes for motor bikes, computer, cyborgs (which most people would find extremely out of place in fantasy settings, but they were part of MtG since its beginning basically)... The line still feels arbitrary. In a multiverse with endless possibilities, where invasive cyborg viruses can potentially battle against lovecraftian horrors, where space-faring civilisations encounter almost almighty wizards from other planes of existence a DJ is somehow too much? Oh well, I will probably not get a satisfying answer to this. As long as it doesn't contradict anything, and doesn't feel totally out of place (which it would on say Ravnica or Ixalan but not on a cyberpunk world) I fail to see the problem. Stupid and childish are subjective terms here (especially since we so far only have the artwork without any background explanation).
I think it's pretty much all some form of extravagant decoration.
Well, the good thing is that Magic is one of the few settings were there are always other worlds and scenarios. Since I am not the biggest fan of standard high fantasy (absolute monarchy being often portrayed as a great thing already puts me off somewhat, but that's another matter entirely), I may be much more open to the lines being blurred, to see new scenarios created from mixing tech with magic and modern societal trappings in fantasy worlds. Kaladesh, Ravnica, Kamigawa, Strixhaven, even Innistrad, Dominaria and New Phyrexia in some aspects are all more or less farther towards modernity on the "modern society/technology" scale than the likes of Eldraine, Bant, Theros, Amonkhet, Dominaria in other aspects etc. I for one hope for a vast variety in the future too and that includes further high-tech planes, but ALSO very primitive ones (Muraganda or some other prehistoric set would also be welcome in the future). I appreciate Eldraine and Bant, but if every set would be about knights and kingoms I would be bored out of my mind. The variety is what drew me to Magic in the first place (during OG Kamigawa no less).
Also quite understandable, though I have to say that it is still clearly not just a normal turntable, not only because of the holograms but also the fires coming out of it (might also be the reason for the exoskeleton, for handling that instrument? That one might also just be 'for style' though. ) I mean, we have seen harps and other instruments that barely look different from their real-life counterparts and don't show as obvious magical influences. Why is that not also skirting too close? And yeah the headphones could have been made a bit more detailed and ornated or perhaps free floating to distinguish them as a bit more 'magical', but the underlying technology of them doesn't really have many ways to look (basically being loudspeakers covering your ears). This is a world that DID undergo many of the technological advances of our world (TVs are also mentioned). Think Legend of Korra where most technology is pretty much our technology, just that the electricity comes from a magical source. That's what we are dealing with here too. I still think the underlying question is why old technology in fantasy (like swords, harps and other instruments, catapults etc.) are ok if they look exactly like their real world counterparts, but modern tech has to be almost smothered in fantasy trappings to look palatable. That's what I can't quite wrap my head around.
Again, fair enough, and I can even understand that the DJ art can be quite jarring (I would still argue that this is for me at least something conceivable for a cyberpunk setting on a world where samurai did and are factoring in, basically a style this DJ is using, but again, this is clearly all subjective).
What I still don't get is these arbitrary lines that some people draw when it comes to technology and modern day cultural influences appearing in fantasy. Fantasy is not defined as 'swords and arrows and absolute monarchies stuck in medieval eras where the fastest way to travel is via horses'. Kamigawa hasn't been replaced with 'cyberpunk japan' - world, it has developed like our world did as well, but still in its own way, caused by the fact that magic exists, that Kamis exist etc. It is still very much fantasy, just with modern (and fantastic) technology. There are countless worlds in the multiverse, and at least some HAVE to go through some kind of technological evolution over time. Kaladesh is in fact worse than Kamigawa in that regard, it might look a bit more fantastic because of the swirling patterns and aether being a fantastic resource, but ultimately it is in a quite extreme industrial revolution and its fantastic elements are so surpressed that natural mages were practically looked down upon by and removed from society until very recently. Kamigawa now looks a bit more similar to our world through cyberpunk trappings, but it has way more fantastic elements in it than Kaladesh in my opinion. So my question is still why this specifically is so fundamentally unpalatable for some people?
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but quite frankly, you haven't really explained why exactly you find this too sci-fi. Is it the notion that fantasy worlds should never have technology beyond medieval (or earlier) era one? That always raised the question for me, why that particular limit? It is not like this is a purely sci-fi world now, it is still a fantasy world with Kami and Magic, but also with technology, some of which adapting to the fantasy elements and vice versa. Swords, catapults, architecture, musical instruments, all that already requires technology. Why is that ok in a fantasy world, but anything beyond that is not?
To specifically defend this DJ art: If you have computers and the ability to save and manipulate music on some form of medium, someone is bound to come up with such an idea. It is just as 'legitimate' as robot drones and giant hologram cities are. Sure, if you hate that already I get it. But I personally see no deeper problem with it.
I always felt that the Kitsune faces in the original were all almost impossible to differentiate from each other. I prefer the newer version. And that's most certainly not a Kappa, but an Akki, a goblin from Kamigawa, which ironically were modelled after Kappas in the original Kamigawa block (while still implying that there were actual Kappas once). I could see them having the Orochi lose their legs to change them from Snakes to Naga (which I wouldn't be in favor of, but oh well). The reason for that change could be anything, it has been a while after all since the Kami War.
I mean... what did you all expect? I was almost fearing that the cyberpunk elements would be relatively rare in this set with how little we saw them in the rest of the art so far (and how downplayed they seem to be). If you do such a thing, then go all the way or go home. The story that has been posted previously already stated that the big cities at least use electricity (so much that Kamis of technology and electricity seem to be common) for computers, a form of internet, touch pads, robot drones, camera surveillance, holograms... a DJ playing some music isn't even showing the height of Kamigawan technology in this era. If you don't like futuristic technology in your fantasy stories then Magic hasn't been up your alley since pretty much its beginning (see the Thran's satellite launches and all the robots of the Brother's War for example).
I have to say though that this set is truly in danger of having to cram way too much stuff in, I would have preferred a two set structure (and Innistrad 3 could have been done in one set in my opinion). I am still very much excited for it.