The Professor puts some of the comments about this product in a much more eloquent way (in this video) and why many of us here, me included, do not look forward to these products or the direction the game is going.
It's a great video, and made me think a lot about the capitalistic angle. My main reason for not feeling UB was the immersion element, it just not 'feeling' right, but the closer examination of UB as a business practice really made me look at it in that light. We have heard "MtG is dead/dying" arguments for decades, though I can appreciate what makes this particular scenario different and why there's a lot of pessimism around UB's impact on the game.
I generally find that Brian, <mod snip>, is not a good endorsement to have for your side of a discussion :/
UB will bring more players into the game, and make WotC more money so that they can pay the people who make this game we all love. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to buy it, but a lot of people will and there's nothing wrong with that.
Just assume these are MTG cards with an Orica over them.
It just annoys me that Kamigawa or water world or other MTG-specific requests require all these hoops but UB isn't a problem. Money talks I suppose. But it doesn't bother me. I doubt they'll incorporate a franchise I like. We'll see. Should have known Secret Lair would get us here.
Speaking specifically to Kamigawa, I think that Maro mentioned somewhere that the plane polled INCREDIBLY poorly from a flavor standpoint (and not just because the cards were bad) so they're pretty loathe to revisit it. IIRC there was a rumor floating around about them revamping it to be a Japanese cyber-punk world or sommat but I don't remember if it was verified at all.
Nah it's the card mechanics in the block, regardless what they say. because how many would actually build decks with those mechanics after that block went to extended if those mechanics in those cards are really good.
The mechanics in Kamigawa were terrible compare to what before it and after it. If those mechanics were decent you would seen a lot of those cards in play after the format were it belong rotated, but no. It's terrible.
I love samurai but the mechanic are the worst they are the bottom tier.. compare that to equipment, soldiers, clerics, rebel, kor, boros and etc.
Samurai were supposed to be cooler than clerics if were talking about themes but the mechanic were terrible
The probably worth salvaging in that tribal was pale curtain, which has the same case to jutun grunt from another terrible set also like coldsnap.
Snake tribal, Oni tribal? SoulShift? Bushido? Offering? Shrine? Epic? those mechanics were dead on arrival even if they were on cards with art and names like part of the medieval or steampunk settings/theme. Those card with those mechanics isn't fun to play with even outside it's block nobody take them seriously not because of being japanese themed but they are terrible in play.
Nobody liked to build deck seriously with those mechanics after it rotated from standard compare to other block which Kamigawa era like Mirrodin, Onslaught, Ravnica and Alara.
Ninjutsu probably was the only decent mechanic that people still enjoys to play from that block.
Arcane could have also great but it's also lock in that block.
Nononono, their polling indicated that BOTH the cards AND the setting were unpopular.
Just assume these are MTG cards with an Orica over them.
It just annoys me that Kamigawa or water world or other MTG-specific requests require all these hoops but UB isn't a problem. Money talks I suppose. But it doesn't bother me. I doubt they'll incorporate a franchise I like. We'll see. Should have known Secret Lair would get us here.
Speaking specifically to Kamigawa, I think that Maro mentioned somewhere that the plane polled INCREDIBLY poorly from a flavor standpoint (and not just because the cards were bad) so they're pretty loathe to revisit it. IIRC there was a rumor floating around about them revamping it to be a Japanese cyber-punk world or sommat but I don't remember if it was verified at all.
I think the only thing some people are disagreeing about now is how best to demarcate "play with UB" and "play without UB" in casual formats. If there isn't something overtly conspicuous to set them apart, "UB cards are not allowed in our playgroup" is a bit of clunky addition to your ad hoc ban list.
As it should be, really. The default should be 'everyone gets to play with their toys' not 'you specifically don't get to play with your toys,' and the onus should be on the folks trying to deny someone something to make the effort.
Most Magic players play kitchen table Magic. They dont know about formats or set legality. They just know "put cards together in a 60 card deck and play Magic."
I really would like to know where you get your facts from.
What he's saying is... partially true. Kitchen table is 100% the most popular format, hands down, according to WotC's market research. That said, kitchen table magic is now almost entirely EDH at this point, and people definitely know the rules and legality for EDH It just so happens that silver borders are absolutely not legal in the format, and are unlikely to ever be given that they've already had their chance, making MORE alt-border-not-really-legal cards absolutely not a solution for any problem ever. Rule zero is a joke.
These dark blue borders are a sweet idea. If they were to do something like that, suddenly all my critics would vanish (the holostamp is really not distinctive enough imo).
I'd be fine with them looking like magic cards, being mechanically unique, featuring other IPs, etc... as long as they're part of their own format, and the blue borders would be ideal to notify that.
And just like Silver borders which are sometimes accepted in EDH, you could see some of these cards being played in "normal" EDH if the table is ok.
That'd be a win-win, really. Heck, having Sauron fighting Ronald MacDonald alongside Rick and Spongebob Pants actually sounds like fun, what I DON'T want to see is a Collected Company dropping a Thalia and Bilbo Baggins into play in any of our traditional formats.
The issue with that is the same as with making them silver-bordered: They wouldn't be legal in the format, so the vast majority of people wouldn't want to play with them. Its no solution at all, really.
Additionally, the mythos that Magic -does- have is that multiple universes exist and the player/planeswalkers pull creatures and spells through time and space to use them to do battle. Dipping into other IPs is 100% unequivocally exactly what Magic is already about, and arguments to the contrary are disingenuous and misinformed at best.
Well that's incredibly wrong.
No, it's not. As that's literally how WotC/Hasbro has their copyright filed. That is their literal canonical mechanics, as reiterated as recently as 2020 by marketing materials. You're now at the point of literally sitting telling us how great Magic lore is, and then telling is that the lore of Magic is 100% wrong as compared to your personal headcanon.
This one killed me. On a crusade to defend the honor of Magic's lore, and literally knows so little about Magic's lore that he winds up attacking it himself. I'M DEAD.
Some of you need to analyze your thoughts about 'HATE'
'Hate' is a strong feeling and word.
MLK said 'Let no man pull you low enough to hate him'
Hate is what brings evil and breeds *****ty people.
Its a freaking card game. People been making 'Fake Cards' of like Superman and Wolverine and Batman for like ..years..HELL , INQUEST MAGAZINE did it themselves back in the day ..they had fake cards printed up in the back of the Magazine for years!! You can search them up and everything.
OH no ..they are making cards with other things on them. Oh well. Be the consumers you know you are if you don't like them ..and not buy them. And if you're playing against them in Commander? Freaking make better decks! Make decks that they don't wanna play against either! Or HECK have some common sense and communicate!
Some people here are gonna start tweeting Maro and all the people in Magic they can ...and then they'll get blocked and think that because they got blocked or some ***** that its a 'Win'
Sometimes ...when I was younger I always wondered why us nerds got picked on and beaten up ...the freaking way that some of you have been acting? I can see why there's a bit of that still today.
You know members of WotC staff received death threats over TWD? I expect they've already gotten a few more over UB, and that says a lot about the mentality of people who are upset about it. The amount of energy folks are putting into trying (and failing) to explain why this is a bad thing is mind-boggling.
Makes me afraid for how nasty and childish games are going to get in public spaces after lockdowns are lifted.
Holy hell, literally none of your arguments make any sort of sense, I'm not even sure where to begin. You really, really just want people to believe this is a bad thing for some reason and can't find a way to back it up. I very much don't understand the level of hate y'all have for this thing that objectively does no harm to you in any way. To live in a world so serene where a company daring to pander to anyone other than you for a millisecond is enough to raise your hackles this much... I can't imagine ever having that level of privilege.
By all means have at it, the majority of folks will be over here enjoying cool new cards just like the majority of folks were actually quite happy with previous crossovers if you look at sales data instead of angry Facebook posts during a time when everyone had nothing better to do.
Seems to me that it's far more likely that fans of LotR and 40k are more likely to buy the cards that feature their favorite characters, scenes, etc. to collect more of the thing they love rather than learning to play the game that they are featured on. I'm sure many in those fandoms are of the nerdy variety and know Magic exists, likely having seen it played at some point. I don't believe Magic incorporating these franchises will bring in new players, but instead just extra buyers.
This feels more like a quick way to get some cash in the short term while forgoing the long term, I base this on Magic's current personality in the last couple of years. There are FAR more quick FOMO kind of products than ever. This kind of attitude I feel is hurting the game, and based on the bannings and the card power lately that is my evidence.
Exactly.
It is 100% a corporate sellout by Hasbro of the existing player base that wants MtG to be and stay MtG. They don’t give a damn about people who have been invested in the game for a long time, sometimes even 25+ years, as long as they can grab the quick cash from the latest generation of un-invested casuals and the growing group of conformist snowflakes within current MtG player base.
And just to point out, reading the forum of the miniature hobby forum I’m also active at it has become crystal clear most Warhammer 40K players think “Magic has no story anyway so having Space Marines in their universe doesn’t make a difference”. That is the kind of new people that will be attracted to the game and you’ll have sit down with you at a Commander table.
I don't understand this position. These new toys take ABSOLUTELY NOTHING away from existing players. Fun and enjoyment is not a zero-sum game. This adds something new and nice for crossover fans and fans of the other IPs, attracting new blood to the game (which is an objectively good thing).
As to the comments you're referencing: they're not wrong. Magic's story/universe is absolute garbage compared to the IPs we'll soon be dipping into. Additionally, the mythos that Magic -does- have is that multiple universes exist and the player/planeswalkers pull creatures and spells through time and space to use them to do battle. Dipping into other IPs is 100% unequivocally exactly what Magic is already about, and arguments to the contrary are disingenuous and misinformed at best.
-These cards will be legal.
-Everyone will have access to them.
-No player has the right to force another player to play the game their way.
-Any player may immediately leave any game they choose.
If you're butthurt about someone playing one of the thousands of cards legal in format (XYZ) you're absolutely within your rights to get up and leave. You are in no way allowed to force other people to do jack *****, and chances are that all of the reasonable people at your table are just going to stick around and enjoy a fun game of EDH with the cool new cards while you sulk off on your own. Then you're stuck in the position where you need to insert yourself into another table and repeat the process of trying to force them to play the game your way and potentially failing.
And for what gain? Ask yourself what you even hope to accomplish by gatekeeping certain cards out of the games you're in. Are you the RC now? Are these cards really hurting you? Is your mild annoyance more important than the joy of others, or even your own ability to play the game with the average person?
It would be so wrong to not allow the “universe beyond” cards in game stores/play groups of commander just because some people can't accept fact that mtg is finally after 20 years joining the cross-over trend in a form of black border and countless companies have done cross-over
basicly It wouldn't be fair for the new players of this generation of magic that’s why I’m willing to adapt if this is what it’s becoming
so you want a solution just convince the rules committee to make two different commander formats one with the UB cards with mtg cards and one without UB cards
You're absolutely correct here.
WotC isn't doing anything wrong with products like this; it'll make many TONS of people happy, and bring a bunch more players into the fold. It will also make a for-profit company money, so they can keep making the game we love, just like every set ever printed. These are good things. If people want to be petulant, gatekeeping brats about a children's card game then they won't be missed from the tables adults are playing at and having a blast with the new cards
I generally find that Brian, <mod snip>, is not a good endorsement to have for your side of a discussion :/
UB will bring more players into the game, and make WotC more money so that they can pay the people who make this game we all love. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to buy it, but a lot of people will and there's nothing wrong with that.
Nononono, their polling indicated that BOTH the cards AND the setting were unpopular.
Speaking specifically to Kamigawa, I think that Maro mentioned somewhere that the plane polled INCREDIBLY poorly from a flavor standpoint (and not just because the cards were bad) so they're pretty loathe to revisit it. IIRC there was a rumor floating around about them revamping it to be a Japanese cyber-punk world or sommat but I don't remember if it was verified at all.
As it should be, really. The default should be 'everyone gets to play with their toys' not 'you specifically don't get to play with your toys,' and the onus should be on the folks trying to deny someone something to make the effort.
What he's saying is... partially true. Kitchen table is 100% the most popular format, hands down, according to WotC's market research. That said, kitchen table magic is now almost entirely EDH at this point, and people definitely know the rules and legality for EDH
The issue with that is the same as with making them silver-bordered: They wouldn't be legal in the format, so the vast majority of people wouldn't want to play with them. Its no solution at all, really.
This one killed me. On a crusade to defend the honor of Magic's lore, and literally knows so little about Magic's lore that he winds up attacking it himself. I'M DEAD.
You know members of WotC staff received death threats over TWD? I expect they've already gotten a few more over UB, and that says a lot about the mentality of people who are upset about it. The amount of energy folks are putting into trying (and failing) to explain why this is a bad thing is mind-boggling.
Makes me afraid for how nasty and childish games are going to get in public spaces after lockdowns are lifted.
By all means have at it, the majority of folks will be over here enjoying cool new cards just like the majority of folks were actually quite happy with previous crossovers if you look at sales data instead of angry Facebook posts during a time when everyone had nothing better to do.
I don't understand this position. These new toys take ABSOLUTELY NOTHING away from existing players. Fun and enjoyment is not a zero-sum game. This adds something new and nice for crossover fans and fans of the other IPs, attracting new blood to the game (which is an objectively good thing).
As to the comments you're referencing: they're not wrong. Magic's story/universe is absolute garbage compared to the IPs we'll soon be dipping into. Additionally, the mythos that Magic -does- have is that multiple universes exist and the player/planeswalkers pull creatures and spells through time and space to use them to do battle. Dipping into other IPs is 100% unequivocally exactly what Magic is already about, and arguments to the contrary are disingenuous and misinformed at best.
-These cards will be legal.
-Everyone will have access to them.
-No player has the right to force another player to play the game their way.
-Any player may immediately leave any game they choose.
If you're butthurt about someone playing one of the thousands of cards legal in format (XYZ) you're absolutely within your rights to get up and leave. You are in no way allowed to force other people to do jack *****, and chances are that all of the reasonable people at your table are just going to stick around and enjoy a fun game of EDH with the cool new cards while you sulk off on your own. Then you're stuck in the position where you need to insert yourself into another table and repeat the process of trying to force them to play the game your way and potentially failing.
And for what gain? Ask yourself what you even hope to accomplish by gatekeeping certain cards out of the games you're in. Are you the RC now? Are these cards really hurting you? Is your mild annoyance more important than the joy of others, or even your own ability to play the game with the average person?
You're absolutely correct here.
WotC isn't doing anything wrong with products like this; it'll make many TONS of people happy, and bring a bunch more players into the fold. It will also make a for-profit company money, so they can keep making the game we love, just like every set ever printed. These are good things. If people want to be petulant, gatekeeping brats about a children's card game then they won't be missed from the tables adults are playing at and having a blast with the new cards
Fantastic idea, these product are going to sell like ******* hotcakes