Didn't they say that they were completing the MDFC land cycle in Kaldheim? Would that mean that there isn't another rare land cycle? If that's the case we can maybe guess what color some gods will be if they correspond with the remaining lands waiting to be printed. If I'm not mistaken we are missing Azorius, Golgari, Rakdos and Simic combinations.
Or the lands may not correspond but if that's the case and there isn't another cycle then I would assume the gods would be monocolor. If they are multicolor I would assume there would have to be corresponding duals to help cast them and play their themes in limited.
Not sure tbh. I admit that I'm kinda hoping the gods aren't merely mono-colour as we have plenty of mono-coloured gods as it is.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
Sounds like Fake News to me when the "ulterior motive" you've inferred is only your own delusion.
You guys just love misusing loaded buzzwords, don't you? First Mary Sue, then "CNN bad," now fake news. When a post is composed of marginally-related buzzwords why would anyone want to engage with that earnestly?
Define "you guys"
Here's your available vocabulary list, per CNN's indoctrination rituals:
Racist
Sexist
Bigot
Misogynist
Transphobic
Except none of those apply to the valid reasons to criticize Kaya, or all Planeswalkers, as characters.
Sounds to me you're mad people can see that you are many of those things and you'd wish people would stop.
Meh
Getting desperate even.
I wonder if Oko will be the big bad, or if it will maybe be Ramaz?
I kinda hope it's Ramaz. I know he's not the "Loki" archetype but I don't know if you'd need a planeswalker to fill that role. It might not even be a PW. We could see a god be the set's main antagonist again.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.
Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.
@Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.
What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
You cannot speak for all Vorthi Tiro. Vivian is disliked by a few Vorthi including myself, not because she is overpowered, but because she is extremist, and even this interpretation may very well just be associated with the initial depiction of her whilst on Ixalan. Vivian was a much more reasonable character in the Ikoria novel, which suggests to me at least that WotC took a hint.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I think MTG overall has done a respectable job of taking the material, making it their own, hitting the more recognizable aspects of the source material while staying true to enough of the deeper cuts to keep those familiar with it satisfied. It’s a fair balance between Kamigawa level delving and the need to be relatable and meet public standards expectations. I won’t fault them for that.
On that we agree.
One of the cool things that the packaging kinda hints at is the possibility of seeing again large scale conflict (armies) on a plane, which is nice in my opinion as the last set to really have any huge battles was War of the Spark, and Ikoria to an extent.
Ikoria's lore had big battles between two opposing assemblages, but as one of the sides was just mind-controlled monsters I'm unsure if it counts.
Then again, Bolas's army in War of the Spark was also majorly comprised of necor-dominated zombies so I guess Iokoria would qualify just as well.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards.
We as a MtG community have to change.
Actually, my very first post in this thread criticized planeswalkers as a whole, not specifically Kaya, and I called all of them Mary Sues. So again, you're clearly assuming what you want about my posts.
But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".
Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I don’t have different standards. Your argument to suggest that failed when I did indeed react to Jace with criticism in favor of a native Zendikar PW fitting better alongside Nissa and Nahiri as two other natives with concerns for their world (which I also stated) than even my favorite character did.
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
-Wondering if the Ulamog thing in the swamp will be a statue, or an offspring, that is now dormant.
-The angel is using some of Kozilek bismuth on her weapon.
-Could the ruin in the sky be another look at Emeria?
-Seagate more or less rebuild.
What I'm wondering is, how much of the Roil will be left on Zendikar, after the Eldrazi are gone. I also think it is strange that we got Jace her, I know the canon status of the two Ravnica novels is questionable, but I thought we would see him on Vryn and Kiora instead in this set, the fill out the native trio. Regardless it is nice to see "adventure" Jace, as a contrast to his last two visits to the plane.
I also expected Jace to be heading to Vryn and Kiora to be here, using Thassa's Bident to rebuild the seas and coastal regions of Zendikar. She headed back to Zendikar after War of the Spark as well.
I admire Adventure Jace regardless, giving me those Ixalan vibes I loved. But I do feel Kiora should have been here instead, despite Jace being my favorite character.
The remnants of Ulamog after being blown apart with moss and vegetation growth is pretty cool. Future generations may mistake it for a statue of a god, but it was once living.
Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?
Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.
One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.
Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
But I’m sure that’s because I’m a sexist Misogynist.
For the record, Zendikar already had its planar overlord equivalents killed by Planeswalkers (Eldrazi), which I criticized in this very thread, concerning Gideon and Ulamog, as another reference.
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
check again, because I said that despite being a major Jace fan, I was hoping to see Kiora as a native of Zendikar instead, and didn’t understand what he’s actually doing on Zendikar again.
Is there something different about Kaya? Is there something unique about her character that causes this level of weirdly obsessive scrutiny and disdain that doesn't apply to these other characters?
I've been criticizing this PW-centric narrative for years, so no. I merely revived this argument when I noticed the apprehension about which brand new character Kaya was here to kill on a plane we're literally visiting for the first time. I just noticed that Planeswalkers usurping native Legendary Creatures has finally been done in such excess that it's an expectation at this point. After Brago and the Obzedat, it's a reasonable assumption. And with Kaya also violating Planeswalking rules, it exacerbated the criticism. Kaldheim is a plane with gods, and frankly I care more about those unique characters from Norse myth than I do about Planeswalkers we can see anywhere.
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.
I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)
capitalist noun
Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2: a person who favors capitalism
Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.
Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.
The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.
In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
I’m... kind of confused how Kaya is a “capitalist”, if anything my reading of her is she’s driven by much more personal stakes than how much money she can get. If that was all she wanted she would just accept being the leader of the Orzhov and not really care about keeping the ghosts as slaves.
I hear ya, the reason why I consider her capitalist is from her bio on the mothership:
"Kaya is a firm believer that life is for the living. The living should make the most of their lives and pursue what they want while they've still got time, and find their own peace before death. If you die with unfinished business, well, that's probably your fault. And if it's not...perhaps she could help you...for a price."
You're not wrong in saying that she's driven by personal stakes, but I think we might have different interpretations of what it means to be a capitalist. In most of her work, she is (for the most part) very contractional, expecting a high fee for services that, while not as commonly demanded as other more mundane forms of labour, is nevertheless highly sought after by those with 'spiritual' problems *chuckle*. Capitalists do not necessarily have the accumulation of greater and greater wealth as their primary objective, but rather capitalists accept and advocate the utility of market-based systems and principles to distribute both wealth and capital.
There are of course many different forms of capitalism and different kinds of capitalists. Like the terms "socialist" and "socialism", there exists a considerable amount of scholarly debate over how best to define and categorize all the different strands within, between and beyond these influential meta-ideas, and the infighting among these scholarly communities are often fiercer within an 'ism' than between 'isms'.
Everything I've read on Kaya suggests to me that she is nominally a capitalist, but you can see in these same works the tensions the character feels when she sees systems such as that of the Orzhov syndicate take what seems to be a few good ideas in principle, but bend and twist them into something quite terrible, terrible for individuals and terrible for the political system at large. All of which demonstrates the tension between Black and White and within BW characters.
I could be off my rocker here and I completely understand if folx aren't convinced. I'm a Poli Sci grad student and I sometimes get carried away. I could talk with my Uni mates for hours on the subject.
The world is grey and there are costs and benefits within any 'ism' or its variants.
Edit: adding a link to Kaya's wiki page just for fun and so that her critics may better come to appreciate the depth to her character.
We also have nor idea as to how WotC intends to use the negative feedback from the War of the Spark novels.
We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.
We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.
Ya, Nazi loves Norse stuff and have been trying to "adopt it" like they did the swastika. Met a gal in college who was a Norse Pagan and she had some pretty cool metallic/bismith Norse rune tattoo that she was really considering get rid of since she had been getting accused of being a Nazi and she was afraid of them being deemed a hate symbol soon.
Er... I have never heard anyone really utter praise for the Obzedat. Tesya? Sure. Ancient ghost bankers? Not so much. That people suddenly seem to care because she killed them reseda honestly suspicious.
That been my though for a while. Last I check most people were loving the idea of Teysa getting rid of them...which she did.
I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
(I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)
What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.
Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.
If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?
While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.
Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
Yeah, can’t relate to the people complaining. Kaya barely has shown up to get fleshed out. Here maybe she will have a chance where it isn’t really just her being used by other people hopefully. It honestly just reads like a no win situation as you can’t flesh out a character without giving them some spotlight, but you’re going to complain about them getting some spotlight to do what you say needs to happen.
Almost as if its not Kaya character people don't like about her.
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
Not sure tbh. I admit that I'm kinda hoping the gods aren't merely mono-colour as we have plenty of mono-coloured gods as it is.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Getting desperate even.
I wonder if Oko will be the big bad, or if it will maybe be Ramaz?
I kinda hope it's Ramaz. I know he's not the "Loki" archetype but I don't know if you'd need a planeswalker to fill that role. It might not even be a PW. We could see a god be the set's main antagonist again.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.
@Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.
What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
You cannot speak for all Vorthi Tiro. Vivian is disliked by a few Vorthi including myself, not because she is overpowered, but because she is extremist, and even this interpretation may very well just be associated with the initial depiction of her whilst on Ixalan. Vivian was a much more reasonable character in the Ikoria novel, which suggests to me at least that WotC took a hint.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
On that we agree.
One of the cool things that the packaging kinda hints at is the possibility of seeing again large scale conflict (armies) on a plane, which is nice in my opinion as the last set to really have any huge battles was War of the Spark, and Ikoria to an extent.
Ikoria's lore had big battles between two opposing assemblages, but as one of the sides was just mind-controlled monsters I'm unsure if it counts.
Then again, Bolas's army in War of the Spark was also majorly comprised of necor-dominated zombies so I guess Iokoria would qualify just as well.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
But again there was no criticisms even of planeswalkers as a whole in the aforementioned Zendikar Rising preview thread, nor have you properly addressed the aforementioned different lenses of framing for your specific so-called "criticisms".
Again, nice try. If anyone wants to check out more of this double standard, feel free to check out the Kaldheim Storyline thread in the "Magic Storyline" forum. It's 11:00 and I'm off to bed.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Believe what you wish.
How you initially responded to the presence of your golden-boy in Zendikar Rising and so called "criticized" him vs. how you reacted to Kaya and dug in your heels re: her, are non-equivalent, nor are they even the same argument. As I recall, you even used the term 'Mary Sue' to describe the issues you had with Kaya. Nevermind the fact that your only complaints regarding Jace were wanting to see his "handsome face" and that maybe his role should have given to another different planeswalker that you also liked.
Examine how you expressed Jace in glowing terms even when you thought there was a 'problem' vs. how addressed your 'problem' with Kaya.
Yet the problem isn't unique to Tiro. Hell the first post on this thread had to be moderated for using racist language for crying-out loud! The issue isn't that people have criticisms about Kaya or planesalkers, but that people seem to indeed have double standards that are detrimental to women and People of Colour.
We as a MtG community have to change.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Two indeed can play but I wish for all to examine the evidence. Did Tiro's initial reaction to seeing Jace in the packaging reflect a frustration that planeswalkers were too prominent in the game and overshadowing planebound creatures?
Jace or Kiora, it doesn't matter. You have one standard for the kinds of planeswalkers that you like and that you enjoy seeing in the game, and an altogether different standard for those planeswalkers that you don't care about.
One doesn't have to be an intentional and raging misogynist or racist to enable, or normalize, either systemic racism or sexism.
Intent doesn't matter, but having two clearly different standards or expectations for the kinds of characters that one likes, or doesn't like does actually matter quite a bit.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Here we are! As I recall you even liked the post at the time.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Not the same argument. Nice try.
Edit:
lemme see here if I can get a good photo
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Funny. I don't recall you bringing up these concerns on the thread showing the Zendikar Rising packaging that featured Jace, even though the boy's prominence over and beyond plane-bound characters is just as explicate, perhaps even more-so, than Kaya's prominence over the same.
*checks old thread*
Nope. Not a single angry tentacle.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist
I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)
capitalist noun
Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2: a person who favors capitalism
Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.
Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.
The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.
In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I hear ya, the reason why I consider her capitalist is from her bio on the mothership:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/kaya-ghost-assassin
You're not wrong in saying that she's driven by personal stakes, but I think we might have different interpretations of what it means to be a capitalist. In most of her work, she is (for the most part) very contractional, expecting a high fee for services that, while not as commonly demanded as other more mundane forms of labour, is nevertheless highly sought after by those with 'spiritual' problems *chuckle*. Capitalists do not necessarily have the accumulation of greater and greater wealth as their primary objective, but rather capitalists accept and advocate the utility of market-based systems and principles to distribute both wealth and capital.
There are of course many different forms of capitalism and different kinds of capitalists. Like the terms "socialist" and "socialism", there exists a considerable amount of scholarly debate over how best to define and categorize all the different strands within, between and beyond these influential meta-ideas, and the infighting among these scholarly communities are often fiercer within an 'ism' than between 'isms'.
Everything I've read on Kaya suggests to me that she is nominally a capitalist, but you can see in these same works the tensions the character feels when she sees systems such as that of the Orzhov syndicate take what seems to be a few good ideas in principle, but bend and twist them into something quite terrible, terrible for individuals and terrible for the political system at large. All of which demonstrates the tension between Black and White and within BW characters.
I could be off my rocker here and I completely understand if folx aren't convinced. I'm a Poli Sci grad student and I sometimes get carried away. I could talk with my Uni mates for hours on the subject.
The world is grey and there are costs and benefits within any 'ism' or its variants.
Edit: adding a link to Kaya's wiki page just for fun and so that her critics may better come to appreciate the depth to her character.
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Kaya
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
We have one book where Kaya demonstrates this possession power, and to be fair, I don't think the fact that Kaya has this ability is really the issue. The issue was that WotC was beginning to introduce more exceptions to planeswalker 'rules' than cases that adhered to them, and Kaya's ability appeared to have been a simple plot device to allow the author to transport a character he liked (Rat) to another plane.
We have no idea how cannon WotC will treat Forsaken.
I've been an Orzhov player and fan for as long as I've been an active MtG player and I have shed zero metaphorical tears at the Obzedat's true death.
(I remember trying to play Dimir as a kid and while I innately understood the power of BlackB, the colour Blue U was far too tricksy for me)
What's frustrating as an Orzhov player and fan is that WB rarely gets to have likeable characters and factions. Sure, Sorin is much beloved, but besides him we are left mostly with characters that pursue B goals with W means.
Kaya is refreshing because she's not only a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero, but also a self-interested, capitalist anti-hero who does in fact occasionally act on behalf of some greater sense of justice or good.
If you were to compare how Kaya has been written with that of her targets, Kaya is a more complex and likable character by far. I admit that this is just my subjective opinion, but like, what narrational role did the Obzedat or Brago really serve?
While I don't wish for the Orzhov guild to realistically collapse should all its debtors be immediately and wholly forgiven, a reformed Orzhov Guild is everything I could have wanted for my guild.
Settings and characters have to change. While I understand that people may be upset when their particular favorite characters and worlds are no longer what they had imagined them to formerly be, still, without setting changes and character growth, all we'd be left with is the 'same old, same old'.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
^^^^ That is a reasonable suspicion.
I'd also like to point out how strategic and normatively sound it was of WotC to make Kaya the face of the 'vikings' set.
Both ancient Norse fandom generally, and Asatru as a religious and spiritual movement more specifically, have become more and more closely associated with white supremacist movements.
Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker and lead protagonist is brilliant: Not only does her anti-undead power-suit and philosophy work well with ancient Norse beliefs and themes re: the afterlife (honourable death, Valhalla, separation between realms)-
-but also, as a well-written character who is also a Women of Colour, Kaya as Kaldeim's face planeswalker also signals greater commitment on WotC's part at combatting racial discrimination and tropes.
For the record, I'm not at all arguing that WotC's choice of Kaya as Kaldheim's face planeswalker was solely informed by her status as a Women of Colour. As mentioned by myself and many others, Kaya's particular interest in maintaining stability in a plane's afterlife process works well in a set that may have as a main plotpoint, the cosmological discontinuity of life and death. Maybe people are no longer being shepherded to their rightful afterlives by the Valkyrie and other divine servitors? Maybe someone who was supposed to die escaped their fate?
WotC would of course have to be careful at sufficiently differentiating such plot from Theros: Beyond Death but I am confident in thier ability to do so.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi