Anyways, I'm exiting the conversation now, and all future conversations about MDFCs unless they turn out to be bad, in which I will likely come back and admit I was wrong. I simply feel too strongly that this mechanic is absurd for Magic, and I have yet to see somebody make an argument that makes me believe otherwise.
Happy cubing y'all, and I hope you have as much fun with this set as I intend to!
Snipped for length purposes
You specifically said it was not a far-off comparison. I think it is. And I think these lands are pretty good! I'm testing like 5 or 6 of them! I just don't think manlands are a particularly useful comparison.
That is a PRETTY far-off comparison TBQH. Manlands can be lands when you need them to be and creatures when you need them to be within the same game, and these can't. Further, the manlands dodge all sweepers and sorcery-speed removal. Finally, that land would be fine, not amazing. It's maybe on par with Treetop Village in a color that is less able to use a manland, and worse than conclave.
Secondly, if folks start doubling down on their positions that support MDFCs ...it could be indicative that they're even better than we thought. If I had to wager an amount of money that mattered to me, I'd guess that there's actually more MDFCs that are worthy of cube inclusion than the community at large thinks, not less.
It could mean that, but I've definitely seen that with respect to card evaluation, and opinions in general, people tend to dig into their positions rather than be swayed to the other side. Both sides will dig in, those that play the lands will keep playing them, those that don't, won't, and since AFAIK no one on opposite sides of the debate in this thread are in the same cube group it won't really matter that much lol.
This makes me even MORE annoyed that WOTC made it basically impossible to access the data from MTGO that people used to be able to get - I'm sure they'll add some of these to the legacy cube, maybe to the vintage cube, and we could have gotten actual numbers for how often they are cast as spells vs lands and the win rate for games where they are cast as spells.
FWIW I am very glad to have these cards as I think modal lands are cool and most just aren't good enough for cube, and I think several of these are. However, I think these will generally be pretty boring cards that will be lands most of the time or a pretty meh effect. They are good cards, but most won't make for cool, fun cube stories.
Yeah, I'm sure regular cube drafters will be fine, but we have people who rotate in occasionally who will be confused, as will the more casual groups I play with, and I'm sure that everyone will have to ask if the can play it with oracle and courser and crucible the first time it comes up for that player. We'll be able to internalize basically any Magic rule, but we're in like the top 10% of magic players in terms of rules understanding just by nature of being cube managers.
While mildly annoying, there are other cards in the cube already where Oracle text changes their function. Burn spells that don't have an "any target" errata still read creature or player, and without checking oracle text, you wouldn't know that you can target planeswalkers with them. Searing Spear can hit 'walkers, FYI. Creature type erratas matter too, and there are some that don't have current printings. And so on. It's a bummer, but we'll learn it and get over it, just like all the other oracle text changes that impact function.
I already said we'd get used to it lol, but do you actually not think these interactions are confusing? Do you not think it's not at all confusing that you can play these off Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya but not Coiling Oracle and Nissa? That they don't get exiled with countryside crusher? That you can play with with Crucible et al, but can't get them back with splendid reclamation, nor with world shaper? That you HAVE to cast the spell half with Omen Machine and Unexpected results?
I never said that these interactions were so confusing that I won't play the cards, just that they are confusing and it's unfortunate they couldn't find a better way to implement these. Hell, they could have made the rule be "when playing this card from your hand, you may play either side." Would that have been less confusing? Maybe, or maybe the way they did it really was the best way. None of that changes the fact that people will mistake how these cards interact with land vs land card vs play vs put into play vs cast. That's all I'm saying.
Edit - and if there was a card that let you play land cards from your graveyard, you couldn't play these, since they are not land cards, but are lands (which is actually what the printings of crucible say too, oracle text just says lands).
Edit edit - It looks like there was actually a big oracle change, whether to make these cards work or for some other reason I can't say. Bolas' citadel now says "play lands and cast spells" instead of "play the top card," as do other cards that previously simply said "play cards." It seems like every card that referenced playing "land cards" now simply says "play lands," but cards that care about land cards for other reasons (Kamigawa reveal cards, dryad greenseeker, etc) all still say land card. Strange.
I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
I mean, sure. It isn't more confusing to me to be able to play them but not a flipped Legion's Landing from your graveyard than it is to be able to do so from your hand, though.
Well sure, but you can never, ever play legion's landing as a land, or find it as a land, or anything. It's only ever a land when it has transformed on the battlefield. These are a land if you're checking whether you can play them when you could play a land, but aren't a land for "put it into play" effects, nor while searching your library, nor while resolving "nonland" discard effects. This is likely the only way to make these cards work, so I'm not saying it's not the best solution, just that it will be confusing.
So like, if you don't think that's confusing, fine, but it seems pretty confusing to me.
Edit edit - Ignore the edit edit. Courser's oracle text now no longer says land cards, it just says "you can play lands from the top." So that's gonna be an interaction people mess up, but that's on Courser's oracle text being different from its printed text.
They count as the front side in every zone. They can be played as a land any time you can play a land.
Should be relatively intuitive.
Right, like I said we'll remember it. But it's pretty confusing that the OTHER dual-faced cards that are land on one side, something else on the other, cannot be played this way, even though they look almost exactly the same.
Rumor is that's not exactly true. You have the option of playing their land side any time you can play a land (from any zone). So according to some folks that have had early access for testing, you can play them (as lands) off the top of your library with Courser effects (like Radha, Heart of Keld) and from your 'yard with Crucible effects. But only when you have the option to PLAY the card. You're right that it can't be targeted by Loam or W&6 in the 'yard. We'll have to wait for the official rules release to see how they work exactly ...but there may be additional interactions in store for these cards.
You can play the back face from another zone with things like Courser/Oracle of Mul Daya/Radha or with Crucible effects, but you can't jam them with an Uro trigger or return them with Loam.
I find this rule to be incredibly unintuitive with how other 2-sided cards have worked. You can't play the land side of Legion's Landing out of your yard with crucible. But because these are MODAL dual face cards rather than TRANSFORM dual faced cards, you can! Like, magic is full of contradicting rules and corner cases, and we'll learn this one just like we've learned all the other ones, but it's still gonna confuse people who know the rules for transform cards. Also, it's weird that they don't count as a land for things like thoughtseize, but DO count as a land for crucible. Although I guess maybe it would be just as confusing if you could play these with explore but not with crucible. I dunno.
This card seems pretty good, but I already painfully cut Phantasmal Image from my 360 cube a while back (which I think is a better card) - so no, I won't be playing this. Would probably play this at 540+.
Yeah, I would NEVER run this over image, which is hands down the best clone. Of course, I also can't imagine not running image in a cube of any size, unless it's some kind of themed cube that doesn't run creatures.
You may have Glasspool Mimic enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature you control, except it's a Shapeshifter Rogue in addition o its other types.
0/0
"When I touch the Glasspool, I tasted infinite possibility."
- Ashen Wal, Akoum Expeditionary House
Glasspool Shore
Land
Glasspool Shore enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {U}.
"Past and possibility come together in the vastness of infinite reflection."
- Ashen Wal, Akoum Expeditionary House
Clone for your guys only and a CIPT land. This definitely seems testable to me.
Snipped for length purposes
You specifically said it was not a far-off comparison. I think it is. And I think these lands are pretty good! I'm testing like 5 or 6 of them! I just don't think manlands are a particularly useful comparison.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
It could mean that, but I've definitely seen that with respect to card evaluation, and opinions in general, people tend to dig into their positions rather than be swayed to the other side. Both sides will dig in, those that play the lands will keep playing them, those that don't, won't, and since AFAIK no one on opposite sides of the debate in this thread are in the same cube group it won't really matter that much lol.
This makes me even MORE annoyed that WOTC made it basically impossible to access the data from MTGO that people used to be able to get - I'm sure they'll add some of these to the legacy cube, maybe to the vintage cube, and we could have gotten actual numbers for how often they are cast as spells vs lands and the win rate for games where they are cast as spells.
FWIW I am very glad to have these cards as I think modal lands are cool and most just aren't good enough for cube, and I think several of these are. However, I think these will generally be pretty boring cards that will be lands most of the time or a pretty meh effect. They are good cards, but most won't make for cool, fun cube stories.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Sorry, hard to tell tone online
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I already said we'd get used to it lol, but do you actually not think these interactions are confusing? Do you not think it's not at all confusing that you can play these off Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya but not Coiling Oracle and Nissa? That they don't get exiled with countryside crusher? That you can play with with Crucible et al, but can't get them back with splendid reclamation, nor with world shaper? That you HAVE to cast the spell half with Omen Machine and Unexpected results?
I never said that these interactions were so confusing that I won't play the cards, just that they are confusing and it's unfortunate they couldn't find a better way to implement these. Hell, they could have made the rule be "when playing this card from your hand, you may play either side." Would that have been less confusing? Maybe, or maybe the way they did it really was the best way. None of that changes the fact that people will mistake how these cards interact with land vs land card vs play vs put into play vs cast. That's all I'm saying.
Edit - and if there was a card that let you play land cards from your graveyard, you couldn't play these, since they are not land cards, but are lands (which is actually what the printings of crucible say too, oracle text just says lands).
Edit edit - It looks like there was actually a big oracle change, whether to make these cards work or for some other reason I can't say. Bolas' citadel now says "play lands and cast spells" instead of "play the top card," as do other cards that previously simply said "play cards." It seems like every card that referenced playing "land cards" now simply says "play lands," but cards that care about land cards for other reasons (Kamigawa reveal cards, dryad greenseeker, etc) all still say land card. Strange.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I wanted to put this in its own post cause it's pretty absurd - as written, you can't play these off the top with Courser, but you can with Muly Duly. However, Courser has apparently had an oracle change at some point to just say "lands" instead of "land cards," so you can actually play these with courser, but you'd only know that if you decided to randomly check the oracle text for Courser. If you looked at the rulings on these MDF cards, and the rules themselves for these MDF cars themselves, everything you read would tell you Courser couldn't play these cards.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Well sure, but you can never, ever play legion's landing as a land, or find it as a land, or anything. It's only ever a land when it has transformed on the battlefield. These are a land if you're checking whether you can play them when you could play a land, but aren't a land for "put it into play" effects, nor while searching your library, nor while resolving "nonland" discard effects. This is likely the only way to make these cards work, so I'm not saying it's not the best solution, just that it will be confusing.
Edit - and I'm pretty sure you can't put one of these into play with arboreal grazer or sakura-tribe scout, either, but you can play them with oracle of mul daya and courser of kruphix, but you can't play them with coiling oracle (you have to draw them) nor with nissa, steward of elements. Oh, and you can play with with explore effects, cause that says play, unlike grazer or scout.
So like, if you don't think that's confusing, fine, but it seems pretty confusing to me.
Edit edit - Ignore the edit edit. Courser's oracle text now no longer says land cards, it just says "you can play lands from the top." So that's gonna be an interaction people mess up, but that's on Courser's oracle text being different from its printed text.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Right, like I said we'll remember it. But it's pretty confusing that the OTHER dual-faced cards that are land on one side, something else on the other, cannot be played this way, even though they look almost exactly the same.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I find this rule to be incredibly unintuitive with how other 2-sided cards have worked. You can't play the land side of Legion's Landing out of your yard with crucible. But because these are MODAL dual face cards rather than TRANSFORM dual faced cards, you can! Like, magic is full of contradicting rules and corner cases, and we'll learn this one just like we've learned all the other ones, but it's still gonna confuse people who know the rules for transform cards. Also, it's weird that they don't count as a land for things like thoughtseize, but DO count as a land for crucible. Although I guess maybe it would be just as confusing if you could play these with explore but not with crucible. I dunno.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Yeah, I would NEVER run this over image, which is hands down the best clone. Of course, I also can't imagine not running image in a cube of any size, unless it's some kind of themed cube that doesn't run creatures.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Creature - Shapeshifter Rogue
You may have Glasspool Mimic enter the battlefield as a copy of a creature you control, except it's a Shapeshifter Rogue in addition o its other types.
0/0
"When I touch the Glasspool, I tasted infinite possibility."
- Ashen Wal, Akoum Expeditionary House
Glasspool Shore
Land
Glasspool Shore enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {U}.
"Past and possibility come together in the vastness of infinite reflection."
- Ashen Wal, Akoum Expeditionary House
Clone for your guys only and a CIPT land. This definitely seems testable to me.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588