I haven’t personally encountered any old school Commander jank either.
I mean, it is an evolving equation right? At one point in the format - things were not solved. people didn't have a greater understanding of toolbox loops, the density of counters to conquer a stack to combo. People were winging a lot of things, which inherently leads to scenarios where something like Uril, the Miststalker could just run over a table. Fast forward a couple of years and people start having a better understanding of not only the concepts I just mentioned, but also what Commanders are naturally capable of crossing a general playability threshold. Fast forward a few more years and even those Commanders have fallen behind to ones that better lend themselves to core concepts and even finer tuning. People have a greater understanding of what to do in any color combination now than they have ever had before, regardless of who the commander is... and the result of that is that the ceiling is significantly higher, as is the floor.
Die-hards wanting to go back to those days, are going to need to curate environments where everyone is in agreement of where the floor and ceiling are and that is simply impossible to do in open play no matter how 'casual' people say they may be (because it is different for everyone). No amount of banning is going to change that, and I would argue that it really only just makes the format less approachable for folks.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I dont know who to quote here but there are absolutely times where you vant curate your pods. Where you have no choice in who you play and refusing to means no game.
For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.
Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round
Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.
Edh experiences vary.
And yet the only person responsible for your fun, is still you...
I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for some of you all to grasp, but you can skip structured commander nights at your LGS and instead call or text friends to schedule time to sit down and play, any other night of the week...
This arguments here for how that is impossible, are absolutely comical.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
How does one compromise in an LGS environment? If my opponent plays a combo deck, I have essentially no control over that. For that matter, if I wanted to play a nasty deck (which I sometimes do on accident, usually followed by apologies and a deck switch), they wouldn't have any control over that either.
One of the biggest differences in the mentality between standard/modern/legacy/vintage/KBPTL/etc is that commander was built on acknowledging accountability for your opponents' fun. Yes, compromise would be ideal, and that's something that's possible with an established group, but in an LGS environment that's not really an option.
Part of what annoys me is that, for the majority of these players, they don't seem to WANT to play combo. They just put it in to compete with the other decks doing the same. After a game ends in a combo, rarely does anyone actually seem pleased, even the person who did it. The player gleefully assembling a crazy combo I don't begrudge, that can be a fantastic ending to the game, but when the game has gotten less fun for everyone because of the increased power level I think we've made a wrong step somewhere.
You are missing the point. You do not have control over what decks your opponents play. What you DO have control over, is who you play with. Even in a LGS enviroment, you can curate these groups. I live in a town of 17k people and Commander is popular enough that I have been able to identify what intensity players like to play at - and I simply don't play with people who don't fall similarly on the spectrum as I do. If I can do that in my small town, I am more than certain most places can.
As for your comments about other formats, Commander is no different in how people play the game. The only difference is that people who don't have Tier legacy decks, don't play the format. The compromise is that they are unwilling to play that format because it heavily leans towards a highly competitive set of decks. I think the issue is that Commander players feel way too entitled and think that the power scale should be non-existent, and that is an impossible demand.
If your table seems completely unhappy with the game ending in a combo, especially the person initiating the combo, then your group sounds like it really suffers from a lack of basic communication and/or you are too willing to play with people you are unfamiliar with. If you are going to engage in open play, then you need to compromise and accept that people are just going to combo out. If you have an issue accepting that, then don't partake in open play... it is simple.
You really strike me as someone who feels some sort of entitlement, either that or someone who thinks they like Commander but really... doesn't. Maybe you should sleep on that and revaluate, I don't know. Not sure there is anything more I can tell you.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I know I was not going to partake in this conversation anymore, but this tab was still open in my laptop browser and it refreshed so I figured I would see where the discussion went.
I think this "combo players need to go play somewhere else" stance is kind of foolish.
Perhaps the biggest issue in Commander these days, is the sitdown and play mentality. People who don't curate their playgroups with either close friends or players that operate on the same axis, are the ones having the most issues with the format. People who have regular groups that have been curated, don't have these issues. It is an inevitable situation, really, but I would say that if you are really having issues with players sitting down and playing Combo decks vs your precons... stop letting random people sit down and play with you.
I ran a Commander League for a while, and pulled together a committee of players to help try and ensure that all players could be represented and allowed to play the way that they wanted to play. It was quite a challenge to meet the expectations of everyone, and ultimately it never truly was fair to everyone. People need to understand that concessions need to be made if you are going to try and include everyone, and if you are not willing to concede to a few things, then stop sitting down with random people. The biggest complaint I got, was from players who wanted to bring cheap fun commanders... and their chief complaints were people countering their spells. I don't recall ever hearing about the more serious players taking issue with more casual players.
If anyone is interested in the set up I used for the league you can download a word doc HERE.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I... don’t think you are very good at pattern recognition nor understanding market trends. So I am just gonna see my way out of this conversation, as it doesn’t seem to be all that stimulating. Sorry.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
In 2009 commander was, to my knowledge, already a major up-and-coming popular new format that took over my playgroup by storm. In mid 2009 none of us had heard of it. By late 2009, we were all playing it. By 2010, we were hardly playing anything else. All of this was before wotc was directly involved. I don't have a graph of "number of commander players over time" but, from my experience, the format did a very good job of promoting itself without any interaction from wotc. Without a parallel universe in which wotc never prints commander products, there's no way to determine how important their role has been. But it's worth remembering that wotc started printing cards for commander because it was already popular, and becoming more popular, and they wanted to promote it and make more money off it. Who knows what would have happened without them, but I think it's very likely that commander would have continued to become more popular without wotcs direct support, because that's what it was already doing.
At the end of the day, unless you're about to reveal that you're actually part of wotcs market research team, neither of us have evidence beyond our personal experiences about (1) how the popularity of commander has increased over time (although maybe this info is available somewhere?), and (2) what is responsible for that popularity (which is essentially unknowable and also not even a reasonable question because, without both parties, commander wouldn't even exist).
Personally, I suspect that the #1 thing that contributed to commander's success is simply that the basic rules are super fun. When we all first started playing the format, it wasn't because we cared about the banlist, and no commander product has really made me think "oh boy, if I wasn't sold on commander already, THIS is the thing that would get me excited!" It was because the core concept, putting a face on a deck and building around a card you thought was cool, was such a neat idea, and a departure from the normal "build 60 card jank until you're good enough to play standard" track that was the dominant way to play before commander existed. The RC and WotC have both presumably contributed to that popularity - and FWIW I don't think the ongoing management of the banlist is terribly important, as I've said - but I think that initial spark of an idea was EVERYTHING. You can say "without wotc, commander would only have half as many players" or whatever, and maybe you'd be right, but without that initial idea NOBODY would be playing commander. And probably a lot fewer people would be playing magic at all.
EDIT: while it's not really relevant, for my money:
Rotates - I'd argue as a positive since it prevents the same cards from dominating in perpetuity and keeps the metagame from becoming stale
Requires constant investment - so does commander, at least the way I play
Covers a fraction of a player's collection - sure, it's nice to have someplace to use older cards, but that doesn't preclude it from existing alongside commander.
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization - There's still a lot of options, we've got 17 commander choices just in ZNR.
So here is my question, with functionally the same ruleset as Commander, albeit some slight variations, why did Tiny Leaders not follow the same exact trend?
The Commander boom didn't start in 2009, I wouldn't even say it started in 2013... So between 2013 and now, what has the RC done to expand the format and allow it to reach the potential it has reached now?
RC saving WOTC from killing the format with insane design ideas, isn't the same as growing the format. 2009 was organic growth. The same organic growth Tiny leaders received. The only difference was WOTC was able to step in and stop Commander from stagnating, by injecting new cards, themes, and a sense of unity, into the format. You still don't have an answer to my question of "What has the RC done to growth te game and bring in new players?", and the reason is simple: that isn't what they do and it isn't what they are responsible for.
What you are providing, are not counterpoints - they are justifications.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
The ruleset has been in place since the dawn of the format... That doesn't mean that the RC is responsible for the sudden rapid acceleration of growth within that format. I think you are forgetting what draws players to the format, and subsequently relating it to Brawl.
BRAWL
Rotates
Requires constant investment
Covers a fraction of a player's collection
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization
Commander doesn't suffer from any of that. Which is important to consider, because WOTC has all but abandoned eternal playability from a design standpoint and, arguably, a printing standpoint. So when they instead, acknowledge something like Commander by strategically focusing on reprints and new designs, it is pretty silly to attribute the growing complexity, diversity, and customization that appeals to people - to the RC.
Additionally, the unification of the format under WoTC as Commander (instead of EDH) has birthed a standardized banned list. This induction of it as an official format has greatly extended its reach and taken it from a back room hobby store format to a format that covers a great deal of different player demographics.
Outside of the final notation about a banned list, what has the RC done to reach other players, particularly new ones? Nothing. It is all on the back of WoTC.
To say that the RC is why Commander has exploded... is pretty naive.
The reality is that Commander grew from the limitless application of the format and sure, that started before WOTC got involved. But the format really gained traction when people were given the opportunity to find more excitement in the format via things like spoiler seasons offering up new possibilities. This is a direct result of WOTC acknowledging the format and injecting cards that not only help bring modern design up to par with older and much more difficult cards to find, but also inject a ton of new possibility into the format which has greatly allowed for more customization.
Ultimately, the format has seen a natural progression, and you can argue that the RC made if possible for WOTC to pick up the format, but that isn't the same as making the format explode.
I also believe that the RC has reneged a lot of their traditional views on the format and as such, are kind of lost in their own format and how the format works these days.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
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I mean, it is an evolving equation right? At one point in the format - things were not solved. people didn't have a greater understanding of toolbox loops, the density of counters to conquer a stack to combo. People were winging a lot of things, which inherently leads to scenarios where something like Uril, the Miststalker could just run over a table. Fast forward a couple of years and people start having a better understanding of not only the concepts I just mentioned, but also what Commanders are naturally capable of crossing a general playability threshold. Fast forward a few more years and even those Commanders have fallen behind to ones that better lend themselves to core concepts and even finer tuning. People have a greater understanding of what to do in any color combination now than they have ever had before, regardless of who the commander is... and the result of that is that the ceiling is significantly higher, as is the floor.
Die-hards wanting to go back to those days, are going to need to curate environments where everyone is in agreement of where the floor and ceiling are and that is simply impossible to do in open play no matter how 'casual' people say they may be (because it is different for everyone). No amount of banning is going to change that, and I would argue that it really only just makes the format less approachable for folks.
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And yet the only person responsible for your fun, is still you...
I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for some of you all to grasp, but you can skip structured commander nights at your LGS and instead call or text friends to schedule time to sit down and play, any other night of the week...
This arguments here for how that is impossible, are absolutely comical.
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You are missing the point. You do not have control over what decks your opponents play. What you DO have control over, is who you play with. Even in a LGS enviroment, you can curate these groups. I live in a town of 17k people and Commander is popular enough that I have been able to identify what intensity players like to play at - and I simply don't play with people who don't fall similarly on the spectrum as I do. If I can do that in my small town, I am more than certain most places can.
As for your comments about other formats, Commander is no different in how people play the game. The only difference is that people who don't have Tier legacy decks, don't play the format. The compromise is that they are unwilling to play that format because it heavily leans towards a highly competitive set of decks. I think the issue is that Commander players feel way too entitled and think that the power scale should be non-existent, and that is an impossible demand.
If your table seems completely unhappy with the game ending in a combo, especially the person initiating the combo, then your group sounds like it really suffers from a lack of basic communication and/or you are too willing to play with people you are unfamiliar with. If you are going to engage in open play, then you need to compromise and accept that people are just going to combo out. If you have an issue accepting that, then don't partake in open play... it is simple.
You really strike me as someone who feels some sort of entitlement, either that or someone who thinks they like Commander but really... doesn't. Maybe you should sleep on that and revaluate, I don't know. Not sure there is anything more I can tell you.
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My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
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I think this "combo players need to go play somewhere else" stance is kind of foolish.
Perhaps the biggest issue in Commander these days, is the sitdown and play mentality. People who don't curate their playgroups with either close friends or players that operate on the same axis, are the ones having the most issues with the format. People who have regular groups that have been curated, don't have these issues. It is an inevitable situation, really, but I would say that if you are really having issues with players sitting down and playing Combo decks vs your precons... stop letting random people sit down and play with you.
I ran a Commander League for a while, and pulled together a committee of players to help try and ensure that all players could be represented and allowed to play the way that they wanted to play. It was quite a challenge to meet the expectations of everyone, and ultimately it never truly was fair to everyone. People need to understand that concessions need to be made if you are going to try and include everyone, and if you are not willing to concede to a few things, then stop sitting down with random people. The biggest complaint I got, was from players who wanted to bring cheap fun commanders... and their chief complaints were people countering their spells. I don't recall ever hearing about the more serious players taking issue with more casual players.
If anyone is interested in the set up I used for the league you can download a word doc HERE.
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WoTC going from 0 commander products a year to 4+ is merely a coincidence...
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So here is my question, with functionally the same ruleset as Commander, albeit some slight variations, why did Tiny Leaders not follow the same exact trend?
The Commander boom didn't start in 2009, I wouldn't even say it started in 2013... So between 2013 and now, what has the RC done to expand the format and allow it to reach the potential it has reached now?
RC saving WOTC from killing the format with insane design ideas, isn't the same as growing the format. 2009 was organic growth. The same organic growth Tiny leaders received. The only difference was WOTC was able to step in and stop Commander from stagnating, by injecting new cards, themes, and a sense of unity, into the format. You still don't have an answer to my question of "What has the RC done to growth te game and bring in new players?", and the reason is simple: that isn't what they do and it isn't what they are responsible for.
What you are providing, are not counterpoints - they are justifications.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
BRAWL
- Rotates
- Requires constant investment
- Covers a fraction of a player's collection
- Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization
Commander doesn't suffer from any of that. Which is important to consider, because WOTC has all but abandoned eternal playability from a design standpoint and, arguably, a printing standpoint. So when they instead, acknowledge something like Commander by strategically focusing on reprints and new designs, it is pretty silly to attribute the growing complexity, diversity, and customization that appeals to people - to the RC.Additionally, the unification of the format under WoTC as Commander (instead of EDH) has birthed a standardized banned list. This induction of it as an official format has greatly extended its reach and taken it from a back room hobby store format to a format that covers a great deal of different player demographics.
Outside of the final notation about a banned list, what has the RC done to reach other players, particularly new ones? Nothing. It is all on the back of WoTC.
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Because complexity is attractive and Brawl is insanely limited in every meteric - when compared to Commander...
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The reality is that Commander grew from the limitless application of the format and sure, that started before WOTC got involved. But the format really gained traction when people were given the opportunity to find more excitement in the format via things like spoiler seasons offering up new possibilities. This is a direct result of WOTC acknowledging the format and injecting cards that not only help bring modern design up to par with older and much more difficult cards to find, but also inject a ton of new possibility into the format which has greatly allowed for more customization.
Ultimately, the format has seen a natural progression, and you can argue that the RC made if possible for WOTC to pick up the format, but that isn't the same as making the format explode.
I also believe that the RC has reneged a lot of their traditional views on the format and as such, are kind of lost in their own format and how the format works these days.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE