Yes, Zendikar has been affected by the Eldrazi, but that doesn't make the actual Eldrazi themselves hanging around on the plane part of Zendikar's identity. Not everything that appears on Zendikar is a necessary part of the plane's identity.
What? Everything on Zendikar is part of its identity, that's literally how you identify it. From the way the vampires and goblins look compared to other planes to the hedrons that we've seen for all five sets. This will quite literally be the first time we won't see Eldrazi there, as again we've been seeing them and hints of them since day one of the plane. To say they are not part Zendikar's identity is just false. They were on the plane for thousands of years, affecting those living on the plane in some way and it shaped it so much it's literally how we were introduced to the plane, by showing that they have been affecting it since imprisonment.
I don't know about you, but being on the plane thousands of years and affecting it so much sort of gives the impression they
The Eldrazi don't need to be there.
That's true of anything on Zendikar, from elves to landfall.
Just because the Eldrazi were there once doesn't mean they always need to be there. Things can change. And in fact, they were always going to. The Eldrazi were never going to be on Zendikar forever.
I'm fine with them dwindling and eventually not being there. I'm not arguing against change. I'm arguing against change done poorly. Rey becoming a Palpatine in Star Wars was a dumb unneeded change because some fan boys got upset that their laser samurais were tampered with and weren't 100% the way they thought it should be. In this case them just cleanly going "Oh, this was take the mothership down and they all do" is a cheap way to try and fix some negative reviews rather than showing that yes, Zendikar is healing, but there is still work to be done.
Look, if by some chance the art shows the world is recovering, but you see the scars of the Eldrazi then that's great and it shows a natural progression, but if we go back and it's just *snap* "What're Eldrazi? Nothing happened!" then that's just bad story telling. Remember, BFZ barely happened a few years ago in story time, if that, for the world to be fully recovered would just not believable.
Are the Eldrazi part of Innistrad's identity too now that they showed up there as well? Do we need to see Eldrazi next time we visit Innsitrad as well?
Yes, I do in fact believe we should see them the next time we go there. Many denizens of the plane were mutated and Emrakul is not dead (if that does affect the mutation and/or minions.) Unless there's an eldrazi equivalent of the Cursemute that cures everything before we go back or it's been 20+ years in story time so all of them can be killed then I absolutely think there should be the mutated eldrazi that we saw previously.
Are they part of its identity currently? I don't think so at this time, but if they stick around and continue to affect the story, then yes.
Mirrodin got taken over by the Phyrexians, does that mean Mirrodin could never be rid of the Phyrexians in the future without it betraying Mirrodin's identity?
Here's the problem with that. We've seen Mirrodin without Phyrexia, we know what it's like, but we have not seen Zendikar without the Eldrazi in some way. Also, it's quite likely to never see Mirrodin we knew again if it gets blown up, which is what I expect.
Stop equivocating not including any Eldrazi on cards with ignoring the Eldrazi existed at all. I'm sure you know full well it's entirely possible to avoid the later without doing the former, so stop saying this, because it's dishonest.
Zendikar Rising is very obviously not going to ignore the Eldrazi ever existed, but there won't be any actual Eldrazi.
I don't know, that seems to be exactly what people want and seems to be what you've been arguing for. Every time I argue for even three cards you keep going on about how wrong it would be.
You're right, they were so not part of Zendikar that the denizens of the world didn't mistake them as their various gods, they didn't have an entire prison system that showed up on near every piece of art for the plane, and there was no history or lore with them on the plane whatsoever.
Look, alien invaders or not you don't hint at something for two sets, have a set dedicated to them (before BFZ), have a backstory where major characters were involved with them in the past on that very plane which also pushed character motivations recently and currently, are the reason vampires exist on the plane, and go "they are not part of the world whatsoever." From the beginning of Zendikar as we know it the Eldrazi were always part of that plane. Yes, the Eldrazi are not 100% the plane, what Zendikar is all about, nor its entire identity, but you cannot sit there and say they are not part of Zendikar's story just like Disney can't go "Rey Palpatine who?"
Again, I'm not arguing that we need a set filled with them, f*** no, but to try and ignore the Eldrazi existed at all is ignoring part of Zendikar's story. I'm not arguing for the Eldrazi themselves, but arguing for why it is important to acknowledge that they did in fact exist and that a giant battle for a plane took place rather than trying to ignore it because a pair of sets was accepted poorly. I am arguing for a breathing world that feels real and not just trying to ignore something because some wish it hadn't happened.
The good and the bad should always be remembered in a story.
We haven't seen it again, because, as what stated, it requires resources to be set aside for a set. That, combined with the issues of confusion it causes with some players, the trickiness in getting it right for design and development, and the need for certain flavour backing—which all make it less likely to be used without a stronger fit.
A card every so often that requires colorless mana, even in ability activations, doesn't need a set strictly made for it. It's not like colorless mana was hard to figure out. If they can bring back phasing with little to no issues on one or two cards they can do it with colorless mana.
As said, the way the lore currently works the Eldrazi are gone. If you wanted to complain about that you missed your window by over four years now.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
Not... really. The Eldrazi titans are wiped out (and as the lesser Eldrazi are the equivalent of their fingers or the like this takes care of the tiny ones). Unless you want Emrakul to break free and invade there really isn't any Eldrazi to deal with. This is just following the lore they set up. To have more Eldrazi you need to either bring out a new titan (which would not likely be met with resounding success and lead to Zendikar being invaded again) or use Emrakul (which likewise is not really a great option, especially as to do so would be ignoring Innistrad). None of this is ignoring history here.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
Yeah, not going to agree with that. We've had full on Zendikar. We've had Eldrazikar. People like the former, and are very mixed on the latter. It's fine to say that you have a preference, but it's pretty silly to act like Zendikar has no identity/is bad/whatever else without the Eldrazi. Or to blame it on Battle for Zendikar when the issue is the Eldrazi in general. People like Zendikar itself, really all there is to it.
It was really BFZ I feel that was the issue rather than the Eldrazi themselves. Look, there's really no reason to avoid the Eldrazi else you look like Disney trying to ignore the sequel trilogy just because they did bad by the 9th movie. The best thing to do would be to accept that BFZ was terrible and keep Zendikar feeling more alive by not trying to ignore a section of its past.
Except for many other players what defines Zendikar for them is not the Eldrazi, and for many of those players BFZ block was a disappointment. It was a popular reaction to the block to wish the Eldrazi weren't there. WotC has said as much. This will be the Zendikar return for those fans who didn't want the Eldrazi. That's just where the numbers lie.
And those players can certainly feel that the plane is better without the Eldrazi, but unfortunately for them they are part of the plane's story. BFZ block was terrible, no doubt about it, but it really wasn't the Eldrazi that made it terrible, but the cards and mechanics of them. It seems like to not put any Eldrazi there, even if they do exist on the plane currently, is just trying to ignore part of what made that plane special in the first place and part of its story.
It's similar to not having slivers in Dominaria, of course it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but I know I was disappointed that there was no hint of them, but slivers aren't exactly one of the defining features of the plane itself.
If the Eldrazi were fully wiped out then yes not seeing them them would make sense, but there should be some sort of lingering affect of them, either through parts of the land still be affected by when they were around or even a Saga remembering what had occurred.
What? Everything on Zendikar is part of its identity, that's literally how you identify it. From the way the vampires and goblins look compared to other planes to the hedrons that we've seen for all five sets. This will quite literally be the first time we won't see Eldrazi there, as again we've been seeing them and hints of them since day one of the plane. To say they are not part Zendikar's identity is just false. They were on the plane for thousands of years, affecting those living on the plane in some way and it shaped it so much it's literally how we were introduced to the plane, by showing that they have been affecting it since imprisonment.
I don't know about you, but being on the plane thousands of years and affecting it so much sort of gives the impression they
That's true of anything on Zendikar, from elves to landfall.
I'm fine with them dwindling and eventually not being there. I'm not arguing against change. I'm arguing against change done poorly. Rey becoming a Palpatine in Star Wars was a dumb unneeded change because some fan boys got upset that their laser samurais were tampered with and weren't 100% the way they thought it should be. In this case them just cleanly going "Oh, this was take the mothership down and they all do" is a cheap way to try and fix some negative reviews rather than showing that yes, Zendikar is healing, but there is still work to be done.
Look, if by some chance the art shows the world is recovering, but you see the scars of the Eldrazi then that's great and it shows a natural progression, but if we go back and it's just *snap* "What're Eldrazi? Nothing happened!" then that's just bad story telling. Remember, BFZ barely happened a few years ago in story time, if that, for the world to be fully recovered would just not believable.
Yes, I do in fact believe we should see them the next time we go there. Many denizens of the plane were mutated and Emrakul is not dead (if that does affect the mutation and/or minions.) Unless there's an eldrazi equivalent of the Cursemute that cures everything before we go back or it's been 20+ years in story time so all of them can be killed then I absolutely think there should be the mutated eldrazi that we saw previously.
Are they part of its identity currently? I don't think so at this time, but if they stick around and continue to affect the story, then yes.
Here's the problem with that. We've seen Mirrodin without Phyrexia, we know what it's like, but we have not seen Zendikar without the Eldrazi in some way. Also, it's quite likely to never see Mirrodin we knew again if it gets blown up, which is what I expect.
I don't know, that seems to be exactly what people want and seems to be what you've been arguing for. Every time I argue for even three cards you keep going on about how wrong it would be.
You're right, they were so not part of Zendikar that the denizens of the world didn't mistake them as their various gods, they didn't have an entire prison system that showed up on near every piece of art for the plane, and there was no history or lore with them on the plane whatsoever.
Look, alien invaders or not you don't hint at something for two sets, have a set dedicated to them (before BFZ), have a backstory where major characters were involved with them in the past on that very plane which also pushed character motivations recently and currently, are the reason vampires exist on the plane, and go "they are not part of the world whatsoever." From the beginning of Zendikar as we know it the Eldrazi were always part of that plane. Yes, the Eldrazi are not 100% the plane, what Zendikar is all about, nor its entire identity, but you cannot sit there and say they are not part of Zendikar's story just like Disney can't go "Rey Palpatine who?"
Again, I'm not arguing that we need a set filled with them, f*** no, but to try and ignore the Eldrazi existed at all is ignoring part of Zendikar's story. I'm not arguing for the Eldrazi themselves, but arguing for why it is important to acknowledge that they did in fact exist and that a giant battle for a plane took place rather than trying to ignore it because a pair of sets was accepted poorly. I am arguing for a breathing world that feels real and not just trying to ignore something because some wish it hadn't happened.
The good and the bad should always be remembered in a story.
A card every so often that requires colorless mana, even in ability activations, doesn't need a set strictly made for it. It's not like colorless mana was hard to figure out. If they can bring back phasing with little to no issues on one or two cards they can do it with colorless mana.
Not sure what the hell you mean by this. I played BFZ and it was terrible. I played RoE and it was great.
I don't care about the Eldrazi specifically just that because people whined like their five that the world of Zendikar loses part of itself. It would be like people getting tired of vampires and they no longer exist on Innistrad. If WotC can just blink things out of existence from worlds then they no longer feel alive and it gives those things a "Why did they exist in the first place if you're just going to get rid of it" sort of feel.
Sorry, but I'd much rather have worlds that feel alive rather than a company removing crap just because some people didn't like a thing.
Uhuh, no one is claiming that Zendikar isn't healing from the Eldrazi, but the idea that they have all been wiped out and WotC should ignore that they exist(ed) is just silly. Just because BFZ was terrible and Eldrazi got tiring doesn't mean you ignore an active and living world.
Again, I am not arguing for a set filled with them, but a few in the set isn't going to suddenly mean the eldrazi are coming back full force. You fumigating your house to get rid of ants doesn't mean all ants disappear forever.
This is something I've been waiting for. They made colorless mana matters and we haven't seen any of it in near five years. It amazes me that there hasn't been one other card since then that requires colorless mana.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
It was really BFZ I feel that was the issue rather than the Eldrazi themselves. Look, there's really no reason to avoid the Eldrazi else you look like Disney trying to ignore the sequel trilogy just because they did bad by the 9th movie. The best thing to do would be to accept that BFZ was terrible and keep Zendikar feeling more alive by not trying to ignore a section of its past.
And those players can certainly feel that the plane is better without the Eldrazi, but unfortunately for them they are part of the plane's story. BFZ block was terrible, no doubt about it, but it really wasn't the Eldrazi that made it terrible, but the cards and mechanics of them. It seems like to not put any Eldrazi there, even if they do exist on the plane currently, is just trying to ignore part of what made that plane special in the first place and part of its story.
It's similar to not having slivers in Dominaria, of course it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but I know I was disappointed that there was no hint of them, but slivers aren't exactly one of the defining features of the plane itself.
If the Eldrazi were fully wiped out then yes not seeing them them would make sense, but there should be some sort of lingering affect of them, either through parts of the land still be affected by when they were around or even a Saga remembering what had occurred.
The plans are so long that I forget Double Masters is coming out all of the time and even forgot what Jumpstart was for months.