Cool so again nothing suggests Garruk changed his views on humans in general jus t him opening up to the Kenriths family.
This is infuriating. You are undermining the importance of his decision at the end of Wilder Quest.
Option 1: Follow my new friends. (Kentrith Twins)
Option 2: Pursue person who wronged me. (Oko)
Garruk following the twins is important as hes opening up. I been trying to explain this to you over and over. Garruk growing up since his 10th birthday lived a anti-social life where his only friends were animals. Him opening up to humans is very important character growth to how he views civilization.
And his fathers advice that he took was for him to stay away from those that could talk and also from civilization, for he should expect deceit. The fact he is following his new friends to a possibly civilized area, is massive character growth.
You might have been right that nothing changed about his character, if he pursued Oko instead. As Oko is the prey for his hunt. Oko detests civilization. So Oko is going to stay away from civilized areas.
Following the twins is the equivalent of the good ending in a video game.
Following Oko is the equivalent to the bad ending in a video game.
You saying that Garruk not following his abusers, like Oko, and choosing to follow his actual friends had no change on his character growth. Do you know how messed up that actually sounds?
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No? Again hunters aren't the most liked by other humans and as we see might be hired as mercenaries but not something intricate to their ways of life. If you mean the military, Vivien says a few times people have a right to defend themselves as long as they don't kill unless they need too and even uses them to show the differences with how the hunters are seen.
Stop being obtuse. The thing you are trying to disagree on, is that the humans eat monster meat. I proved with Bushmeat Poacher that there is an economy that runs on selling meat to eat. Even their flavor text reads:
“If you’ve never feasted on Zagoth terror-pig, I got the best price you’ll find.”
FEASTED as in eat.
And all the wild animals are considered monsters. Even the ones with a singular type like bird or cat still appear more monstrous than a normal counterpart. Like take Garrison Cat, its just a cat, but its got tusks and was only kept as a honorary monster hunter due to the fact that it ate the mice. Its still viewed by the Drannith city as a monster.
Now this is really going into baseless speculation. We don't know when they reach Kylem or if thats where Garruk is nor nothing would suggest that he would stay with them in the city once he sees they are doing ok as he still gonna wantlook for both Oko and Liliana.
It could be baseless, it could be canon. We don't know if battlebond-plane was the next place they visited or they visited like nineteen other planes along the way. There story is left up in the air. Just like Lukka's and just like Calix. Calix is pursuing Elspeth, but where does Elspeth go? We don't know because we didn't even get a novel.
Umm look at the cards name, its a poacher and thus likely selling the pig meat on the black markets.
Okay so they selling pig meat, possibly monster pig meat, and if it is being sold to people why would people want it? Would it be for eating? If so then they do eat wild game.
Ummm thats what happens?
The monsters are still there. Which means groundbased travel is still dangerous. Which means monster hunter work is still a desired job. The only exception is bonded animals. To Vivien that would still be awful.
And a great way to show how Vivien and Garruk could have approached the conflict yet both just play with the concept nearly the same.
If the story is done nearly the same, then you migth as well have any green planeswalker take Vivien's place. The assumption that you make is that because of the book's ending, the journey to that ending must be still the same.
Which applies the same way as a coin toss of heads or tails. The actual book lands on heads. You state the result still lands on heads even if it was flipped different. I state it lands on tails. Which there is also the possibility of the coin landing on its side, which means neither is right.
And again nothing supports Garruk changing his view on humans just him growing to care for the Kenriths. He offers to look for the twins since as he (and we) know they now can travel the multiverse which can be dangerous. Nothing suggests he is going to return to society or embraced it just his pack now includes the Kenriths.
If assuming the Kenriths went to the battlebond plane first, and Garruk followed and stayed with them, hes technically out of his element and comfort zone. Even on Ravncia he only briefly visited Jace for information.
The Ikoria hunters aren't noble hunters gathering food for humans, they are game and sport hunters who hunt for a black market network and the hunters we saw aren't above killing people if it would get them a profit. They are barley even welcomed into the cities showing even other humans disagree with what they do and their methods. Nothing is touched on any hunter who hunt to strictly to feed (as the cities are said to have farms) and considering the hunters is putting what they get on the black market I doubt they helping the truly hungry. Nothing is touched on hunters who need to hunt to survive.
On that note...do the Ikoira normally eat monster meat? As far as I'm aware Lukka and his gang left the monster they killed and nothing is brought up on the body. Lukka even gives an oral report on what the monsters was and now it acted which doesn't seem like they bring in the bodies to study. Lukka mentions wanting chicken and rabbit meat with his meal with Vivien (not chicken-rabbit but as separate animals) implying there is a degree of normal-ish meant but nothing about monster meat.
Also...maybe I'm dirty minded but ummm an exotic animals horn for medical reason sounded like a aphrodisiac references which imo don't think animals should be killed for.
And in an other article (as talked about before) had Vivien also praising Skysaild for trying to avoiding monster attacks so honesty that blaring inconsistency making it hard to figure out that point.
We do actually have an exmaple of them eating monsters. Bushmeat Poacher. Assuming a Terror-Pig is just a pig with also the nightmare type.
I think that while the Drannith people might still have their stock of animals that they keep safely for eating, those in less fortified areas would be eating what animals they could find, monster or no.
As for the horn, who knows if its meant to be an aphrodisiac or not.
While I might be wrong I find it hard to believe Vivien can't save an animal in the arc bow without it dying and again out of character to have Viviens made thing go against her nature without it being brought up as a character conflict.
And as the bow is made of a mix of Smaragdi and Nura magic so again I don't see the group that Vivien was born into being okay with the bow only working on dying animals as well. Seems similar to Kiora bonding with the essences of sea monsters to make powerful aether copies.
Okay so Vivien comes respects the Jirina the basically war lady of the height of human civilization on Ikoria. Would you think that if Vivien got to know a techno mage who thinks nature is icky who ...idk lost their home plane or was a victim of bolas she couldn't show respect and form a form of bond with them? Does every character need to have a meaningful connection to people they at a level fundamentally disagree with to show they are able to have character bonds and growths?
I think Jirina Kudro is the wrong one to look to. As while she does allow monsters inside of the city, Vivien's reasoning of her being compassionate yet also finding it strange for opposing the monsters before Lukka's coup. The idea should be that while some monsters are allowed in the city ,specifically bonded ones and the least harmful kinds, there are other monsters that the city needs to protect themselves if the monsters are not properly kept control of, equivalent to wild wolves or tigers that are still deadly to travelers on the ground.
Also the reason we talk of the two green mages and their connections is because their connections actually influence how they view the Civilization vs Wilds view. As again while Garruk is leaning towards civilization on the spectrum, Vivien still leans more closely to Wilds.
For an example, Nissa Revane used to slightly lean towards Wilds, but still had her feet planted in Civilization because of her people The Joraga. She met Chandra, and joining Chandra on their travels led them to civilization a lot. Eventually Nissa and Chandra split and now Nissa leans more heavily towards Wilds as she wants to tend to her plane.
As for the Arkbow, its just what it does. If you do the ritual by tapping it 4 times on the ground near a dying animal, it traps the spirit of the animal inside of the bow as a new invocation to summon it with the magic arrows. Nothing has been stated about releasing animal spirits from it. The only logical conclusion is that breaking the bow frees the animal spririts.
Nothing suggests the Kenrith fixed Garruks hating/distrust of humanity. Its just the fact the Kenrith family has earned his respect. Again going back to the point you brought up, like Vivien, Garruk would have probity not trust two royal teenagers who's kingdom was built on driving back the wilds, same as how Vivien has shown affection and such for humans who she respects. And nothing say pre-cursed Garruk wound't have grown fond of the Kenrith either if given the chance to know them, not that its not character growth but not something Garruk is able to do that Vivien isn't.
If nothing changed as you imply, Garruk would have pursued Oko and tried to run him down just like his other targets. Instead he chose to follow two people he wished to protect because of an act of generosity. As Garruk was caught in this perpetual cycle of hunting those who wronged him. Him choosing for himself to break that cycle and return to society with a newfound purpose shows growth.
You have to think about it as Rehabilitation. Garruk was effectivelly separated from society at an adolescent age of 10. Him trusting the twins and wanting to go toward civilization with them is him overcoming his notion that civilized society is wicked. And its not that far of a stretch as Garruk was part of a town for 10 years and grew up amongst other civilized people.
Your really saying "humanity is evil for exploring nature" Vivien would willing let any animal dye so she could use it for the arc bow instead of trying to save it? We even see an example of this on Ikoria where she let the dinosaur that attacked her and Lukka after they had hurt it enough to make it run even thought its size and power would have been great for the arc bow.
No, humanity should be able to hunt and enter the forest. Vivien Reid acts unreasonable when people need to hunt. She ridicules the Skysail nomads in one of her journal entries for speculating the worth and possible medicinal purposes of the horn from Yorion, Sky Nomad. Its even made explicit by the novel that the animals are not stable enough to be classified into a species outright due to the erratic nature of the mutations.
But that still doesn't change she is basically a Ghostslaver.
The rules for her bow are: "The Arkbow can make "snapshots" of a dying creature, transforming its memory into a spirit of the animal in its prime. The ritual involves tapping the Arkbow three times against the floor, resulting in an intense white light surrounding the caster. After a fourth tap, the artifact opens into metallic bark and branch, flowering at intervals. After it splits down, the jag of light absorbs the spirit of the dying animal."
Sure she lets one animal get away, but there are others shes added that she could have saved instead. She enslaves souls of the dead to do her bidding by weaponizing them. Which is a far cry from the Abzan and their Kin-Trees or the Temur and their Frozen Ancestors, as the spirits are still people who willingly stay connected to the material world to offer wisdom and protect the living. The animals offer no wisdom, they are merely arrows in a quiver, they don't have a say of what they should be fired at for they merely exist. And between the two, while the Abzan culture is not listed as a shamanic tradition, yet the Temur and their "Whisperers" as they are known are considered one.
Vivien Reid is classified as a Shaman, someone who works with the primal and spiritual forces, yet her magic stemming from the arkbow is more akin to necromancy than anything druidic like the Smaragdi order which Vivien Reid was apart of and helped make the bow. Which necromancy is a sub-classification of magic for a Wizard and is considered part of civilization. A shaman is a hybridization of the druidic and wizarding teachings in the MTG lore.
And maybe this where the confusion comes from a bit. I'm mostly comparing Vivien to what he knew of pre-cursed Garruk and even still as said I don't see Garruk bond with the Kenrith as him now not hating humanity just finding humans he feels like he can now trust. I think they could grow to be more different and the last two books has show a better split (and shown with your papa wolf/lone wolf comparison) but still I think their roles and story potential is too similar, even more so now they have had Vivien growing out of the the possible hero/villian role they where maybe going with and Garruk losing his curse and return to mono-green.
The difference comes from who they respect. Vivien respects Gavi, a bonder who protects animals from humans who wished to harm the dinosaur-cats. Garruk respects the Kenrith twins who are adventurous, and while the twins were raised in a society prefer civilization over the wilds, Garruk remembers the kindness. That is where Vivien and Garruk diverge.
I'd say your assuming too much on mono-green Garruk. Nothing says he didn't kill people and gain one of the the first big thing he does is go after Liliana for killing one of his bonded beasts. He might have not hurt innocents like Vivien did on Ixalan, but he was willing to seems to kill people who crossed him or his beasts.
I also think the protective nature Garruk has the Kenriths isn't showing him being protective of humanity in general. The story goes over how the twins had show him kindness, with Will even risking his life to save him from drowning, and how their love for their parents reminded of his love for his father and mother. He still dislike people its just the Kenriths where able to earn his respect, Vivien is shown to be similar to the humans who gain her respect.
And looking through Ikoira what did Vivien do that would have been all that different from what Garruk would have done give him the same motivations. While your right he likely would have gone after monster to bond with, we saw Vivien did similar things with the arc bow. Vivien was a very passive character in the story with Lukka being the protagonist villain driving the events. Her role was basically the beast mage who helped Lukka to the Ozolith, joined up with the bonders to lead them help fight against Lukka and track down a walker who was corrupting the crystals.
Again replace Garruk with Vivien here and I see similar results going on and again I dislike how similar to each other the two are in what roles they can fill in stories and cards.
The reason we know how Garruk behaved is from the comics "The Hunter and the Veil", The Veil's Curse", and "Wild Son". The narrative makes it explicit of what type of person he actually was before being cursed.
The first death we see caused by post-corruption Garruk causes is actually to one of his own beasts, and this is because the beast is sickly and needed a mercy killing. The second death we see is Garruk taking an innocent man, bringing them to foul monsters for information, then leaving him there. The reason being that the man had a special talisman placed on him by Garruk, a two-way radio if you will, so he could hear the monsters talk even if the man died. Note this is all we ever are given for Garruk's descent, prior he never was this destructive. He almost killed Jace, but that was again the Curse starting to have a hold on him as he was snapped out of it and realized his folly, giving Jace advice that the map lead to Zendikar before walking out.
Even as a teenager who wanted revenge, he ordered his beasts not to kill unless ordered, which takes great maturity and strength to not want a whole town dead for past events that occurred seven years ago.
The Kenrith twins are actually a huge step for Garruk as he doesn't loathe humanity. To set who he was in as an adult in motion, he was a scared boy who was forced to flee into the woods at his father's behest. Then he heard on the same day his father slowly dying over that two-way talisman. One of the last lessons given to Garruk as a piece of advice "And Garruk, remember this most of all... anyone who can speak can lie. Expect Deceit." and then with his last words saying "I love you, son.".
Which is why the kindness of the Kenrith's and him wanting to protect them is far bigger growth. Also those words from a father to an adolescent could result in a warped teenager when they grew up, as that advice could have been interpreted to do more evil than just kill the Sheriff only.
Garruk is different from Vivien, hes actually a natural bonder. Vivien only takes the souls of dying animals and stores them in her bow as a memory. Its similar, but one actually cared about trying to keep living animals around them while the other only stores the souls of the dead to use as a weapon. Which is where the difference of Garruk and Vivien really comes to a head.
Lets take a Titanoth Rex if both were to have visited Ikoria, Garruk would actually try to tame it, resulting in forming a powerful bonds with it. Vivien would let the same animal start dying then capture its soul in her bow to use later.
Which for Vivien sounds a bit similar to a green necromancer. Heres a fun tidbit on necromancy in MTG's lore, there is a specific types of necromancers on Grixis and one of them is called a "Ghostslaver" and these necromancers specialize in "binding ghosts as servants". And its not that far in a leap of logic that she binds animal ghosts to use as servants.
Which is more of how Vivien is differnet from Garruk. If given the same advice by a dying loved one, and then seeing what they did, you could attribute the advice as to why someone like Vivien did what she did at the zoo run by vampires by killing both the innocent, neutral and corrupt. While this same advice for Garruk was more about staying away from places of active civilization. He only entered civilization once to get just revenge for his father pre-curse. He entered civilization more post-curse when in desperate need of finding Liliana.
To give you an accurate comparison using animal tropes: Garruk is the Papa Wolf, Vivien is the Lone Wolf. One is protective of their pack, the other is a drifter on their own. Garruk used to be the same as Vivien, a Lone Wolf, but the Kenrith's kindness changed who he is as a person in a more profound way.
@Vivien v Garruk- Idk I have issues with Vivien being to similar to Garruk since the only difference is I *believe* Garruk does kill his hunts (though the example we saw he bonded with a monster not sure if he ended up killing it or healed it after). We only seen mono-green Garruk a few times as well, his origin story with his father being killed and him summoning beasts as an adult to kill the Sheriff who killed his dad (and he had the beasts destroy the town as well...so basically the first story we see with Vivien) and then him trying to kill Liliana after he killed one of his bonded beasts. I mean you could literally swap out Vivien out for Garruk for those stories, heck you could swap out Vivien for Garruk in this story. Also add in with Garruk retuning to being mono-green card-wise they will be really similar, thought thats a whole other issue they share with other walkers.
While Vivien is similar to Garruk for how they destroyed civilized areas and harmed people, Garruk didn't kill innocents when going after his father's murderer. The worst his tamed Kavu did was break spears and knock a soldier away with its head. The only time we see property damage is when his Wurm broke through the earth of the prison and killed the Sheriff. And the reason for both the Wurm and Kavu not killing innocents is that Garruk gave a direct order to not kill unless he ordered it.
However unlike Garruk, both Vivien and Lukka killed more than just one person in their destructive ways. Garruk only started to kill and harm more people when he was corrupted by Liliana and mind-controlled by Oko. While post-purification Garruk is more willing to kill now than he was previously based on his own past experiences, he is also more in control of himself than he was before.
Swapping Garruk for Vivien also creates differences in the story. Garruk is a more protective figure than Vivien is in characterization, applying to both animals and humans. Vivien is less protective of humans and more towards animals. If anything, Garruk would be more into trying to find the biggest and strongest monster he could find on Ikoria and bond with it to add to his collection.
Overall, I am actually a little bit disappointed, because although the writing was fairly good the worldbuilding felt a bit shallow and there are large discrepencies between the book and the cards. It's as if the people making the game product weren't aware of the author's narrative aside from a very broad sketch.
Well that is because Ikoria is based on b-movies about monsters like King Kong or Godzilla, but also on works like How to Train Your Dragon or Monster Hunter. The story exists and there can be a healthy dose of backstory tucked away somewhere, but its a backdrop to the actual star, the monster itself. Perhaps that wasn't the original intent if they had one or more sets meant to expand on Ikoria, to give it more depth, yet here we are.
Ikoria in many ways reminds me of older sets around the late 90s and early 2000s where the disconnect with the cards and the books were almost two different beasts that were side-by-side. As the stuff in the set primarily exists in this very impersonal view, a snapshot of the plane itself. While the novels and articles actually give you a more structured view of it. In that you don't need to read the books to understand, but it helps.
I think I finally figured out why Vivien Reid annoys me. Shes Garruk but more talkative, condescending, and with a holier than thou complex. Garruk also didn't like civilization and preferred animals just like Vivien. He is always terse and sometimes curt with others, yet he was always more down to earth in his views except when he was cursed.
Yet Lukka more closely mirrors Garruk, as both Lukka and Garruk got their revenge against a authority figure in a civilized area who murdered something they held a close connection to. Lukka and his cat, Garruk and his father.
I'm also certain Vivien Reid would hate Garruk if she met him. Garruk is a hunter for both necessity and challenge. Vivien probably would lump Garruk in with Chevill, Bane of Monsters.
I also think Vivien would hate Garruk because of what Garruk wishes to protect, a pair of human planeswalkers of nobility. Said nobility whose people choose civilization over the wilds. Likely not understanding immediately why Garruk would want to protect them.