I know this conversation is a couple months old, but I was wondering if I could ask when each of you started playing the game? Like what was the current set when you started? Just curious how it ties in with some of what you all have said.
BTW. OUAT. Easy. We banned it.
We don't ban cards in my meta, instead we combine both the Legacy and Vintage ban/restricted lists with our own interpretation.... YMMV
A card like Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage, therefore we allow only a single copy per deck.
However a restricted card like Monastery Mentor in Vintage and legal in other formats is fine as a playset.
Since we only play 60 card FFA and our meta is creature based, this has turned out to be the "best" way to allow people to deck build and enjoy their cards.
If we were dueling and following format restrictions, we would just choose either Vintage or Legacy but obviously not both
That being said, all the mulligans in the world aren't always able to overcome variance and multiple opponents.
What does bother me is when both Green players at the table open with turn 0 OuAT, turn 1 Elf, turn 2 three drop almost every single game. And I'm absolutely including myself in there so this isn't a "screw everyone else" complaint. I don't enjoy the fact that I have to build my decks that way but I'm still going to do it if it's optimal. When multiple people are making the exact same openers game after game it no longer feels like you're playing unique games of Magic. Rather, it feels like you're stuck playing the exact same game. That's what really bothers me about the free MP mulligan, the London mulligan and OuaT combined.
I actually find this interesting. You often propose green decks that are x4 Primeval Titan and x4 Sylvain Primordial as finishers. I assume when you do this it is because in the majority of your brews these are the optimal cards for those CMC costs unless another niche card is needed (like Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof behemoth in token decks). Realistically, if you want to play the optimal build each and every time, it is relatively few cards that make the cut. The only difference now as I see it, is you have to find 4 slots for Once upon a timein the majority of green decks because the card has become the defacto go to in the early game.
It is not lost on me or anyone else around here that you almost always showcase alternative options for those who have deck building restrictions, whether because of financial or playgroup rules. This is much appreciated. To go back to my point I made in a previous post, I think this is why some people like to build different types of decks, think Elves, Devotion, midrange stompy, ramp etc, so they can play different cards in those decks and not have to play the same cards over and over again.
I have friends who build like you, pure brewers and just take decks apart and move cards around. They love it and look to play optimal builds which frequently include the same cards with few variations. I have other friends who build a deck, tweak it if it under performs, if a new card released obsoletes a current one, or if a new card enhances a strategy.
Once upon a time is a bad design pure and simple. It may as well be a Demonic Tutor for anyone playing green or splashing green since odds are you want a land or creature anyways. That being said, when I play black I always run a demonic tutor and a vampiric tutor along with two other tutors. I recognize that you still have to pay for those but it's not like smoothing draws hasn't been around since the beginning of Magic. The problem with OUAT is that it is free, BEFORE you do anything.
I agree that changes to the mulligan rule are in an awkward state especially if you follow it to the letter in MP. Being able to see 1/3 - 1/2 of your deck BEFORE you play is obscene. That being said, all the mulligans in the world aren't always able to overcome variance and multiple opponents. After all, the same benefits apply to your opponents as well. The best sculpted hands still lose enough that this hasn't become an issue in our meta yet.
What it does do, is pigeon hold people into only playing 3 of the 5 colors of Magic (black, blue and green) because they are CLEARLY multiple steps up in terms of consistency, draw and power over red and white, that IMO opinion is the bigger problem. My personal meta doesn't run serum powder only one guy runs Once upon a timein one deck and we allow "even more" friendly mulligan rules if you show a hand with 1 or 6+ lands.
Is EDH really any different. Lots of tutors in that format, tons of redundancy too, with slightly different card choices. I am not a huge fan of tutors, but I recognize the power and consistency they bring to decks so I use them at times. If you are a brewer, there are certain cards that are pure staples and those same cards go in all your decks as you build them.
If you are thematic, sometimes you play less optimal choices for flavor, art of whatever. This gives you the option to play different cards (sometimes, not always) which is a good thing. As much as I want to win, I like to win in certain ways and with different cards.
The power creep in Magic cannot be understated either. OUAT is clearly part of the latest power surge, for better or worse
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We don't ban cards in my meta, instead we combine both the Legacy and Vintage ban/restricted lists with our own interpretation.... YMMV
A card like Sol Ring is banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage, therefore we allow only a single copy per deck.
However a restricted card like Monastery Mentor in Vintage and legal in other formats is fine as a playset.
Since we only play 60 card FFA and our meta is creature based, this has turned out to be the "best" way to allow people to deck build and enjoy their cards.
If we were dueling and following format restrictions, we would just choose either Vintage or Legacy but obviously not both
I started playing in Lorwyn Block
I actually find this interesting. You often propose green decks that are x4 Primeval Titan and x4 Sylvain Primordial as finishers. I assume when you do this it is because in the majority of your brews these are the optimal cards for those CMC costs unless another niche card is needed (like Avenger of Zendikar or Craterhoof behemoth in token decks). Realistically, if you want to play the optimal build each and every time, it is relatively few cards that make the cut. The only difference now as I see it, is you have to find 4 slots for Once upon a timein the majority of green decks because the card has become the defacto go to in the early game.
It is not lost on me or anyone else around here that you almost always showcase alternative options for those who have deck building restrictions, whether because of financial or playgroup rules. This is much appreciated. To go back to my point I made in a previous post, I think this is why some people like to build different types of decks, think Elves, Devotion, midrange stompy, ramp etc, so they can play different cards in those decks and not have to play the same cards over and over again.
I have friends who build like you, pure brewers and just take decks apart and move cards around. They love it and look to play optimal builds which frequently include the same cards with few variations. I have other friends who build a deck, tweak it if it under performs, if a new card released obsoletes a current one, or if a new card enhances a strategy.
I agree that changes to the mulligan rule are in an awkward state especially if you follow it to the letter in MP. Being able to see 1/3 - 1/2 of your deck BEFORE you play is obscene. That being said, all the mulligans in the world aren't always able to overcome variance and multiple opponents. After all, the same benefits apply to your opponents as well. The best sculpted hands still lose enough that this hasn't become an issue in our meta yet.
What it does do, is pigeon hold people into only playing 3 of the 5 colors of Magic (black, blue and green) because they are CLEARLY multiple steps up in terms of consistency, draw and power over red and white, that IMO opinion is the bigger problem. My personal meta doesn't run serum powder only one guy runs Once upon a timein one deck and we allow "even more" friendly mulligan rules if you show a hand with 1 or 6+ lands.
Is EDH really any different. Lots of tutors in that format, tons of redundancy too, with slightly different card choices. I am not a huge fan of tutors, but I recognize the power and consistency they bring to decks so I use them at times. If you are a brewer, there are certain cards that are pure staples and those same cards go in all your decks as you build them.
If you are thematic, sometimes you play less optimal choices for flavor, art of whatever. This gives you the option to play different cards (sometimes, not always) which is a good thing. As much as I want to win, I like to win in certain ways and with different cards.
The power creep in Magic cannot be understated either. OUAT is clearly part of the latest power surge, for better or worse