So I guess to sum up feel free to feel how you want but also realize your feeling don't quite match up with what being presented.
Which, I mean...yeah. Literally all I'm trying to do is spell out my own feelings and make it clear why. Again, I know full well I'm not in the majority and I know full well why Wizards do what they do. All I'm saying is why it isn't exactly satisfying (again, despite being completely aware of why it is the way it is).
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
A totally reasonable request right there right? Not even factoring in that walkers races need to be intelligent enough to forms a society which monsters don't normally tend to do (see why no hydra walker (yet)).
Again, I must point out that I am not the one who said this. Pay attention to who you're quoting before you try to pin someone else's words on me.
I do understand however while feelings do have a place in a discussion people are confusing feelings for facts and running with that instead of looking what been going on. The whole non-human thing has several part all related but different so I'll address them;
1) "All the walkers are mostly human or where human" mostly where my list comes from and to point out, while subjective on how many should be there ~ 30-40% of the current walkers on cards are non-human.
2) "Wizard doesn't make any new non-human walkers" again not true looking over the new walker they made such as Angrath and Dovin.
I agree, there do exist a good chunk of nonhuman planeswalker cards. This is fact, no one can argue it. That's why the complaint is less about existence and more about relevance - it's real hard to be excited about the umpteen billionth human-centric story just because we had that one minotaur on that one card.
3) "Non-Humans are sidelined in the story" Thats a different topic and somewhat true to a degree IMO. As said the main 5 gatewatch got overwhelming spotlight and we have now seen them trying to expand outside of them. However you could said this for many of the other non- gatewatch 5 members. And of note Bolas, Vraska and Nissa have had major story arcs and/or been featured. And while related the walker characters on the story aren't tied to the cards fully anymore. Shouldn't matter if most walkers are human if the non-humans are getting featured in story.
I guess this is where our main source of disagreement comes from, because it's not a different topic - it is the topic I argue.
This is a gross-overly simplify version of whats their reasoning. Humans have harder time empathizing with things that we deem the "other" or what ever we don't see as the "norm". This is't something Maro is making up this is a theory that been seen in media design and psychology. With non-human designs the farther away from human feature (eyes and other facial ones being big), body types (four limbs, bipedal) and even with taxonomy with us favoring mammals over lizard and bird and those over bugs, fish, squids, ect. Add on human features and traits to a being and its easier for humans to empathize with it, remove human traits and features and it makes it seem more monstrous and harder to empathize with. Alien movies have been doing this with years with its designs. This why humans have been irrationally afraid of things like spiders over a bear or a snake over a mountain lion. Add in magic lore is primly told through static art and and written mediums. This makes it harder to communicate the character to the average player. Given we are getting netflix shows and arena gives the walkers voices lines (helping humanizing the non-humans) this might lead to non-human getting moe popular.
Aside from, again, this is not something I said, I feel like I must correct something else here, because it's another very common misconception. I do not deny, nor have I ever denied, that those who prefer nonhumans are in the minority. Trust me, that could not possibly be more clear. I started playing Magic back in 2000 - Prophecy was my first set - and even before that point, I was already fully aware of the fact that I was in the minority here. You don't need to say it, because the world itself makes it entirely clear. There is absolutely nothing that you, Maro, or anyone else can say, in the clearest and most specific language on Earth, that could possibly make that clearer. I do not claim otherwise, never have, and never will.
What I do claim is that the human bias is not nearly as all-consuming as it's made out to be. Pop culture is absolutely rife with examples of nonhuman characters that appeal to all sorts of different people (to quote a wise philosopher, "No one would like Mickey Mouse if he was Mickey Dude"). Even though I am fully aware that people, in general, prefer humans, I don't believe for a second that that means they're against nonhumans. I fully believe that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the audience would be absolutely fine with seeing a nonhuman protagonist every once in a while. Keywords there being "every once in a while" - I do not expect to be catered to all the time. Once every few years, especially when combined with some more relevant side-characters in the meantime, would do absolute wonders, while, again, the human-loving majority would still be perfectly fine with it. I believe this is even more true when you consider that Magic fans are in all likelihood fantasy fans in general, who are even more accepting of such "weird" things. You can prefer chocolate while still liking vanilla.
This all seems pretty reasonable to me but the replies to this either are "Thats just made up marketing talk" or "I'm not the average person and thus don't feel what the average player wants" or rants each time a human walker is shown instead. And those are the remarks I tend to reply not those saying in general wanting more non-humans Big difference between;
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
and not "Well I love angels and would like to see one even thought non-humans aren't as popular and an angel would need a lore hoop to jump through".
Same points as above.
And related but more so personal to you;
5) "Elves, Kor, Vampiren ect aren't non-human enough" well agree to disagree I feel like appearances since the only thing to show if something is human. While I see your point with Nahiri and kor and other magic original races, I've said before things like elves, vampires and dwarfs have mythological, pop cultural and genre related bias on not being human or being a perversion of humans traits. Not saying you can't ask for "monstrous" but understand this your personal line of non-human isn't not only not just what magic goes by but the genre and human folklore. Funny this thing also started over talks of an angel walker which you wound't have been thrilled with for non-humans walker.
I agree that it's a personal line, but my point is that it's a line that is likely shared by many who want to see more nonhumans, which is why pointing out things like that is not nearly as helpful as you think. Even if you disagree, surely it's not hard to see where someone's coming from when they say that "human with funny ears" isn't exactly satisfying their desire for nonhumans.
And by the by, I'm not saying that they can't have elf, dwarf, kor, vampire, or whatever else. Of course they can. I'm saying that this "variety" of "it's basically just a human except for one very minor detail" is not satisfying to someone who actively wants more nonhumans. I wouldn't mind these "basically human" races if they were mixed in with more actual nonhumans.
I'm also not saying that they need to be completely monstrous. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few more monstrous ones, but yeah, I know the difficulty. But there's a happy medium in between "basically human" and "alien jellyfish". More Ajani, less Nahiri. More viashino, less dwarf.
I also hear people say, in defence of the basically-humans, "Well it's their unique mindsets/experiences/lifestyles/whatever which make them interestingly nonhuman". I know you didn't say this, but it is something I want to address. First of all, it often isn't actually the case. MtG elves (and Magic is far from the only property to do this, and elves are far from the only race to do this, but we're using it as an example) aren't typically "uniquely elven" - they often take a mindset which could be entirely applicable to a regular human, but decide that's just how elves feel. No, I don't believe that Nissa's mindset couldn't apply to any old human. I don't expect them to create a completely nonhuman and alien mindset for them - that's basically impossible after all - but it doesn't make it any less true that this "uniquely elven mindset" is typically anything but.
The second point is that physical appearance does matter. After all, if it didn't, then where's the problem in making more obviously nonhuman-looking characters in the first place?
Personally I just like seeing fun new walkers human or non-human but imo human representing and demographics are more important (and to wizards more sellable) than non-humans and wizard need to still work on how they are representing human demographics.
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.
How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.
Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.
Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.
And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.
:/
I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
I don't want to completely derail things, but this is the classic "technically true but misses the whole point of the complaint" argument. It's meaningless and dismissive, please don't be doing it.
Then don't bring up the topic with a troll version of what the facts are.
They have also said a few times they rules isn't hard rule and they are willing to break them. An angel walker is a when and most likely hone they can figure out a story they like (and thats markable) to introduce one. Karn, Ob and Tibalt are examples of this.
Also where are you getting sphinx can't be walkers? Its just angels and demons typically (dragons and hydras are held back some by being unintelligent).
This isn't really important, tho, since we like only human planeswalkers. Can't wait to see Ikoria, the so-called plane of monsters, where we are gonna have our umpteenth human PW.
20/54 current walkers with cards are non-human. Thats 37% of all walkers...yeah so little.
I don't want to completely derail things, but this is the classic "technically true but misses the whole point of the complaint" argument. It's meaningless and dismissive, please don't be doing it.
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Which, I mean...yeah. Literally all I'm trying to do is spell out my own feelings and make it clear why. Again, I know full well I'm not in the majority and I know full well why Wizards do what they do. All I'm saying is why it isn't exactly satisfying (again, despite being completely aware of why it is the way it is).
I agree, there do exist a good chunk of nonhuman planeswalker cards. This is fact, no one can argue it. That's why the complaint is less about existence and more about relevance - it's real hard to be excited about the umpteen billionth human-centric story just because we had that one minotaur on that one card.
I guess this is where our main source of disagreement comes from, because it's not a different topic - it is the topic I argue.
Aside from, again, this is not something I said, I feel like I must correct something else here, because it's another very common misconception. I do not deny, nor have I ever denied, that those who prefer nonhumans are in the minority. Trust me, that could not possibly be more clear. I started playing Magic back in 2000 - Prophecy was my first set - and even before that point, I was already fully aware of the fact that I was in the minority here. You don't need to say it, because the world itself makes it entirely clear. There is absolutely nothing that you, Maro, or anyone else can say, in the clearest and most specific language on Earth, that could possibly make that clearer. I do not claim otherwise, never have, and never will.
What I do claim is that the human bias is not nearly as all-consuming as it's made out to be. Pop culture is absolutely rife with examples of nonhuman characters that appeal to all sorts of different people (to quote a wise philosopher, "No one would like Mickey Mouse if he was Mickey Dude"). Even though I am fully aware that people, in general, prefer humans, I don't believe for a second that that means they're against nonhumans. I fully believe that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the audience would be absolutely fine with seeing a nonhuman protagonist every once in a while. Keywords there being "every once in a while" - I do not expect to be catered to all the time. Once every few years, especially when combined with some more relevant side-characters in the meantime, would do absolute wonders, while, again, the human-loving majority would still be perfectly fine with it. I believe this is even more true when you consider that Magic fans are in all likelihood fantasy fans in general, who are even more accepting of such "weird" things. You can prefer chocolate while still liking vanilla.
Same points as above.
I agree that it's a personal line, but my point is that it's a line that is likely shared by many who want to see more nonhumans, which is why pointing out things like that is not nearly as helpful as you think. Even if you disagree, surely it's not hard to see where someone's coming from when they say that "human with funny ears" isn't exactly satisfying their desire for nonhumans.
And by the by, I'm not saying that they can't have elf, dwarf, kor, vampire, or whatever else. Of course they can. I'm saying that this "variety" of "it's basically just a human except for one very minor detail" is not satisfying to someone who actively wants more nonhumans. I wouldn't mind these "basically human" races if they were mixed in with more actual nonhumans.
I'm also not saying that they need to be completely monstrous. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few more monstrous ones, but yeah, I know the difficulty. But there's a happy medium in between "basically human" and "alien jellyfish". More Ajani, less Nahiri. More viashino, less dwarf.
I also hear people say, in defence of the basically-humans, "Well it's their unique mindsets/experiences/lifestyles/whatever which make them interestingly nonhuman". I know you didn't say this, but it is something I want to address. First of all, it often isn't actually the case. MtG elves (and Magic is far from the only property to do this, and elves are far from the only race to do this, but we're using it as an example) aren't typically "uniquely elven" - they often take a mindset which could be entirely applicable to a regular human, but decide that's just how elves feel. No, I don't believe that Nissa's mindset couldn't apply to any old human. I don't expect them to create a completely nonhuman and alien mindset for them - that's basically impossible after all - but it doesn't make it any less true that this "uniquely elven mindset" is typically anything but.
The second point is that physical appearance does matter. After all, if it didn't, then where's the problem in making more obviously nonhuman-looking characters in the first place?
I mean, yeah, I see that. I'm not saying representing human diversity isn't important. I think the bigger problem is their seeming complete reluctance to give our crowd what we're asking for. Whenever they're asked for some sort of human representation, they say "Absolutely" - as very well they should, I'm not at all implying it should be otherwise - although I do think there's a lot more to it than Wizards says, but that's a whole other topic entirely (fantasy uses allegory and metaphor all the time, even when it isn't intentional - if someone finds themselves relating to a particular nonhuman character, or even a whole race, who never gets to be in the spotlight because only the preferred majority are allowed to be heroes, you can see how that could cause issues). But whenever someone asks for nonhumans, we're met with "Nah nobody wants to see that" or "There are already plenty, see -points to The List-". If we were at least allowed to have some hope - something a bit more than the vaguest possible "Maybe at some distance point in the future if all the planets align but really no" - it would go a long way.
The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.
This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.
If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.