Lol, yeah, it's taken a few iterations. But now it feels like I'm ready to get to the design stage for cards and see how well the mechanics actually pan out. If all goes well, the majority of feedback going forward can be geared toward templating and power balance suggestions.
Back and forth working on the mechanics is good. Important to get them right. You don't want to jump the gun just so you can get on with the design.
I like this. My only concern is that it might not feel blue enough for a blue-centred Temur, at least in its similarity to the previous Temur theme. But that's fairly subjective and does depend somewhat on execution.
Agreed. I'll be shifting the weight of the ETB effects a little more heavily to the blue end of the spectrum to compensate. I also plan on including bounce and flicker support for more of that blue feel.
Good idea with the bounce and flicker.
Ooh, that's a cool idea. Reminds me of Monstrosity and Ascend. I suggest templating it as such.
Mastery (When you cast your second non-creature spell each turn, if this creature hasn’t attained mastery, put a +1/+1 counter on it. It attains mastery)
& Optional bonus text: When (this creature) attains mastery/As long as (this creature) has attained mastery.
This means you can tuck away the mechanic text in a keyword and separate the unique effects, as well as give you more flexibility in what bonus effects you give without making the mechanic more confusing.
Maybe add a variable number for the +1/+1 counters as well? Depending on what sort of/how many bonus effects you want to do with the mechanic as to whether the extra flexibility or simplicity is better.
Thanks for pushing me on the DFC front.
I understand the temptation. DFCs are cool.
I was worried that I wouldn't be able to create the kinds of card designs I wanted to without it, but Mastery is proving to work well so far. And yes, your templating definitely feels cleaner. It's a little wordier, but that may be necessary for sake of clarity. Also, I hadn't thought about using multiple counters yet, but I'll keep that in mind as an option when simplicity seems called for.
The extra words don't count for that much when you tuck them a bunch of the words away in a keyword. It's easy then to just remember what the keyword does and add on the specific effects rather than reading through the text of an ability word to look for the specific effect and figure out what's the constant.
Exploit did the same thing as well.
Still toying with "DJK3654's" second version of Martyr: ([Cost], Sacrifice this creature. Put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. (Martyr only as sorcery).) vs. Endure: (When this creature dies, [effect for X +1/+1 counters it had on it].) But I'm going with Martyr so far, while often including (when this creature dies effects) on uncommons and up.
Sounds good
Temur Mechanic
It was a bit of an "aha!" and a "duh" moment for me to realize I could fix Resonate by referencing power 4 or greater. So the mechanic is now:
Reverberate: Whenever this creature, or another creature with power 4 or greater enters the battlefield under your control [effect].
I like this. My only concern is that it might not feel blue enough for a blue-centred Temur, at least in its similarity to the previous Temur theme. But that's fairly subjective and does depend somewhat on execution.
Jeskai Mechanic
So, I'm finally giving up on the idea of DFC. Instead:
Mastery: When you cast your second non-creature spell this turn, if this creature hasn’t attained mastery, put a +1/+1 counter on it. It attains mastery and gains [keyword or ability].
Ooh, that's a cool idea. Reminds me of Monstrosity and Ascend. I suggest templating it as such.
Mastery (When you cast your second non-creature spell each turn, if this creature hasn’t attained mastery, put a +1/+1 counter on it. It attains mastery)
& Optional bonus text: When (this creature) attains mastery/As long as (this creature) has attained mastery.
This means you can tuck away the mechanic text in a keyword and separate the unique effects, as well as give you more flexibility in what bonus effects you give without making the mechanic more confusing.
Maybe add a variable number for the +1/+1 counters as well? Depending on what sort of/how many bonus effects you want to do with the mechanic as to whether the extra flexibility or simplicity is better.
Martyr
The rationale here was that I was trying to find BWG design space that didn't focus on +1/+1 counters, as I feel they are overused. That leaves lifegain, artistocrats, and graveyard focus (but this is currently taken up by Sultai). Since BW and BG love to sacrifice stuff, and GW makes lots of tokens I decided to go down that route. I made the tokens spirits for flavor reasons, and gave them lifelink to allow for some lifegain sub-themes. You are right about the condition of making spirits being too narrow though. I'll have to open up Martyr to other abilities as you suggested. Also, despite what I said about wanting to avoid +1/+1 counters this time around, it's still an important part of the Abzan identity, so I may need to find a way to work them in anyways (especially now that Sultai isn't using -1/-1 counters anymore).
The difference from Exploit is that Martyr creatures typically sac themselves for the greater good, rather than being sacrificed by some other source for it's own benefit. Also, flavor wise, Martyr is meant to represent some of the Abzan being killed for practicing the old ways of ancestor worship (practicing necromancy from Dromoka's point of view), and then joining their ancestors in death as spirits themselves.
The problem with that is that a mechanic like this is going to want to have a bunch of different ways to sacrifice your creatures in set and you can't afford to give all of your martyr creatures self-sacrifice abilities because it would crowd out lower rarities with wordy and complex cards.
New suggestion I just thought of is you could make the mechanic itself a self-sacrifice effect.
Such as
Martyr [cost] ([cost], Sacrifice this creature: Matryr only as a sorcery.)
When you Martyr (this creature), (effect)
Or Martyr — [cost], Sacrifice (this creature): (effect). Martyr only as a sorcery.
Or maybe
Martyr [N] — [cost] ([cost], Sacrifice this creature: Put [N] +1/+1 counters on target creature. Matryr only as a sorcery.)
(Providing a base effect that could then add "when you martyr ~", "when you sacrifice ~" or "creatures you control with +1/+1 counters on them" to give bonus effects)
Resurface
A fixed version of Dredge is exactly what I was going for. Odds are I'll never end up finishing and testing this set, so I'll probably never know if it's "fixed enough" but I really like it at the very least. It's my favorite of the mechanics at this point.
It is an interesting idea.
Realize
This mechanic is meant to represent an individuals transition from pre-enlightenment to post-enlightenment, which isn't a factor for the other clans. Having double faced cards felt like the best way to convey this transformation, hence why I've been ok with them belonging only to the Jeskai in this set. The only other alternative I see to this would be a new version of level up, perhaps one where instead of investing mana into the card, you level up each time you play an instant or sorcery (while possibly restricting it to 1 level up per turn this way). The problem with this however, is that there is less text space to work with which would negatively impact the kind of abilities that could be used. Also, rather than symbolizing the transition to enlightenment, it would feel more like a novice of a skill eventually gaining mastery through dedicated practice. That still feels very Jeskai and could work, but it isn't the kind of transition that I was originally trying to convey.
You could just make it an ability word that gives a bonus each time you play your second spell in a turn
i.e. Realize — Whenever you cast your second instant or sorcery spell each turn, (effect)
I would consider opening this up to include more cardtypes, such as making it noncreature spells (fitting for Jeskai) or maybe just all spells.
Aspire
Yes, there is limited design space for it, but I'm okay with that. I think this is a kind of one and done mechanic that could be used in this set and never again. There's already more room for variance here then there was with Battle cry for instance. And essentially I designed this mechanic to be a Battle cry of key words.
Well, that's the right way to go about it.
Again, thanks for your feedback. I'm taking this all under suggestion.
Martyr
'When this creature is sacrificed' is an interesting condition. This reminds me a lot of Afterlife. I think given Afterlife already exists, the condition is narrow enough and the reward effect is somewhat limited in colour and possible card frequency, I would open up the mechanic into an ability word.
Like so, Martyr— When (this creature) is sacrificed, (effect)
That said, I'm not sure how appropriate this is for Abzan. It's rather like Exploit, the Silumgar mechanic.
Resonate
This reminds me of the Precedence mechanic that WotC experimented with during Guilds of Ravnica design. I'm concerned by how linear and parasitic it is. I'm worried it won't play very well as a result because the cards are going to tend to live or die together. If they turn out good, it could easily be overbearing and dominate the meta, if they turn out bad, they could easily be quite unplayable. And that while not being the most flexible and interactive strategy to build around. I imagine this will be difficult to make play well with the other clan mechanics.
All that said, maybe this could work if executed properly, but I have my doubts.
It does seem like a good choice for Temur thematically, at least, as a big value creature mechanic and does feel a little more blue than the previous ones to fit with the colour shift.
Resurface
This is interesting. It's kind of like a fixed version of Dredge. I like that the effect works well on its own with the mill effect but the more mill, sacrifice and discard you've got, the better it becomes with more options. My biggest concerns are whether newer players will find the mechanic exciting, as its kind of a subtle effect that newer players might not see as very useful, and the ability with this to repeatedly recur your cards quite effectively and whether that would lead to frustrating and/or repetitive gameplay. But this looks fairly good still, I'd want to test it out at least.
Realize
Again, I have to say I don't think it's a good idea to put transform and DFCs as a specific faction mechanic. DFCs are a big splashy piece for a set, and limiting them to one faction is going to upset some people and also seems a waste to use DFCs just for that.
The second spell condition is a good idea, but that does basically translate to the Surge mechanic, so that might not be quite novel enough.
Aspire
This seems good. It is a little more contained than Edict was, as you say. I do wonder how many good cards you can actually get out of this mechanic in the one set though. That might be a problem.
I like the idea of going back to the Wedges but shifting the dominant colour. It's a good way to give a bit of a novel spin to the whole thing, tie into the story with the reformation of the clans, and push things in a slightly different direction mechanically.
Pitting Sarkhan against Narset in the conflict is also a neat idea. I like conflicts where they are sympathetic POV characters on multiple sides.
Now then, Mechanics Review
Kindred
Tribal spirits is an interesting idea, but feels like a bad idea for a faction set where the factions aren't all tribes. Feels out of place.
Could easily do a spirit subtheme though, like how the previous Tarkir block did Warrior tribal.
Commune
This doesn't feel very Temur. It's a fairly black, graveyard focused mechanic for a blue-centric, non-graveyard themed faction. You don't want to stray too far away from what the faction was doing last time.
Caring directly about both discard and milling also feels like a bit of a crowded theme to choose for a mechanic. Seems tricky to balance too.
Envenom
Given the strong +1/+1 counter theme from last time, namely in Abzan, it's a questionable choice to go with -1/-1 counters for this. +1/+1 counters are in general the safer, simpler option, and are the default choice of counter. I don't know if there's much reason to opt to use -1/-1 counters here.
Envenom as a keyword seems to just be 'put -1/-1 counters on target creature'. That's too broad. Support was more specific of an effect, and it got panned for being too basic. Which is to say, this is not a very interesting effect and it doesn't make an exciting mechanic.
Realization
What exactly is the Realization mechanic? You really should define the mechanic outside of example cards, especially for the ability words.
Assuming it's the creature dealt combat damage dies part, I'd say this is too narrow of an effect to make a mechanic. You *could* design a lot of cards with this mechanic, but it's not an effect you *want* much of in a set, if at all. This won't play very well because it won't go off as often as you might think and be frustratingly unreliable to build around.
Assuming it's the transform part, I'd say this is too much of a big splashy thing to tie to one faction. Especially considering if you're going to do a splashy transformation mechanic in Tarkir it should probably be Morph. If you were to use transform and DFCs, I would at least make it faction neutral so everybody gets some.
Edict
Like with a creature dealt combat damage dies mechanic, this doesn't seem like an effect you'd want to put that much of in a set. In this case, this mechanic is pretty powerful and 'swingy'. It stacks aggressively and has a very high power ceiling with how many creatures you can buff at once. It's not out of the question- this is something you'd want to test- but I'm pretty wary. Especially when this isn't the most interesting effect in general, and quite similar to previous Mardu mechanics, despite the theme of shifting the factions. I suppose it's kind of more white in that it specifically cares about a big team, but that's pretty minimal when the others also liked having a bunch of creatures, just less specifically.
Back and forth working on the mechanics is good. Important to get them right. You don't want to jump the gun just so you can get on with the design.
Good idea with the bounce and flicker.
I understand the temptation. DFCs are cool.
The extra words don't count for that much when you tuck them a bunch of the words away in a keyword. It's easy then to just remember what the keyword does and add on the specific effects rather than reading through the text of an ability word to look for the specific effect and figure out what's the constant.
Exploit did the same thing as well.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Sounds good
I like this. My only concern is that it might not feel blue enough for a blue-centred Temur, at least in its similarity to the previous Temur theme. But that's fairly subjective and does depend somewhat on execution.
Ooh, that's a cool idea. Reminds me of Monstrosity and Ascend. I suggest templating it as such.
Mastery (When you cast your second non-creature spell each turn, if this creature hasn’t attained mastery, put a +1/+1 counter on it. It attains mastery)
& Optional bonus text: When (this creature) attains mastery/As long as (this creature) has attained mastery.
This means you can tuck away the mechanic text in a keyword and separate the unique effects, as well as give you more flexibility in what bonus effects you give without making the mechanic more confusing.
Maybe add a variable number for the +1/+1 counters as well? Depending on what sort of/how many bonus effects you want to do with the mechanic as to whether the extra flexibility or simplicity is better.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
The problem with that is that a mechanic like this is going to want to have a bunch of different ways to sacrifice your creatures in set and you can't afford to give all of your martyr creatures self-sacrifice abilities because it would crowd out lower rarities with wordy and complex cards.
New suggestion I just thought of is you could make the mechanic itself a self-sacrifice effect.
Such as
Martyr [cost] ([cost], Sacrifice this creature: Matryr only as a sorcery.)
When you Martyr (this creature), (effect)
Or
Martyr — [cost], Sacrifice (this creature): (effect). Martyr only as a sorcery.
Or maybe
Martyr [N] — [cost] ([cost], Sacrifice this creature: Put [N] +1/+1 counters on target creature. Matryr only as a sorcery.)
(Providing a base effect that could then add "when you martyr ~", "when you sacrifice ~" or "creatures you control with +1/+1 counters on them" to give bonus effects)
It is an interesting idea.
You could just make it an ability word that gives a bonus each time you play your second spell in a turn
i.e.
Realize — Whenever you cast your second instant or sorcery spell each turn, (effect)
I would consider opening this up to include more cardtypes, such as making it noncreature spells (fitting for Jeskai) or maybe just all spells.
Well, that's the right way to go about it.
No problem
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Martyr
'When this creature is sacrificed' is an interesting condition. This reminds me a lot of Afterlife. I think given Afterlife already exists, the condition is narrow enough and the reward effect is somewhat limited in colour and possible card frequency, I would open up the mechanic into an ability word.
Like so,
Martyr— When (this creature) is sacrificed, (effect)
That said, I'm not sure how appropriate this is for Abzan. It's rather like Exploit, the Silumgar mechanic.
Resonate
This reminds me of the Precedence mechanic that WotC experimented with during Guilds of Ravnica design. I'm concerned by how linear and parasitic it is. I'm worried it won't play very well as a result because the cards are going to tend to live or die together. If they turn out good, it could easily be overbearing and dominate the meta, if they turn out bad, they could easily be quite unplayable. And that while not being the most flexible and interactive strategy to build around. I imagine this will be difficult to make play well with the other clan mechanics.
All that said, maybe this could work if executed properly, but I have my doubts.
It does seem like a good choice for Temur thematically, at least, as a big value creature mechanic and does feel a little more blue than the previous ones to fit with the colour shift.
Resurface
This is interesting. It's kind of like a fixed version of Dredge. I like that the effect works well on its own with the mill effect but the more mill, sacrifice and discard you've got, the better it becomes with more options. My biggest concerns are whether newer players will find the mechanic exciting, as its kind of a subtle effect that newer players might not see as very useful, and the ability with this to repeatedly recur your cards quite effectively and whether that would lead to frustrating and/or repetitive gameplay. But this looks fairly good still, I'd want to test it out at least.
Realize
Again, I have to say I don't think it's a good idea to put transform and DFCs as a specific faction mechanic. DFCs are a big splashy piece for a set, and limiting them to one faction is going to upset some people and also seems a waste to use DFCs just for that.
The second spell condition is a good idea, but that does basically translate to the Surge mechanic, so that might not be quite novel enough.
Aspire
This seems good. It is a little more contained than Edict was, as you say. I do wonder how many good cards you can actually get out of this mechanic in the one set though. That might be a problem.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Pitting Sarkhan against Narset in the conflict is also a neat idea. I like conflicts where they are sympathetic POV characters on multiple sides.
Now then,
Mechanics Review
Kindred
Tribal spirits is an interesting idea, but feels like a bad idea for a faction set where the factions aren't all tribes. Feels out of place.
Could easily do a spirit subtheme though, like how the previous Tarkir block did Warrior tribal.
Commune
This doesn't feel very Temur. It's a fairly black, graveyard focused mechanic for a blue-centric, non-graveyard themed faction. You don't want to stray too far away from what the faction was doing last time.
Caring directly about both discard and milling also feels like a bit of a crowded theme to choose for a mechanic. Seems tricky to balance too.
Envenom
Given the strong +1/+1 counter theme from last time, namely in Abzan, it's a questionable choice to go with -1/-1 counters for this. +1/+1 counters are in general the safer, simpler option, and are the default choice of counter. I don't know if there's much reason to opt to use -1/-1 counters here.
Envenom as a keyword seems to just be 'put -1/-1 counters on target creature'. That's too broad. Support was more specific of an effect, and it got panned for being too basic. Which is to say, this is not a very interesting effect and it doesn't make an exciting mechanic.
Realization
What exactly is the Realization mechanic? You really should define the mechanic outside of example cards, especially for the ability words.
Assuming it's the creature dealt combat damage dies part, I'd say this is too narrow of an effect to make a mechanic. You *could* design a lot of cards with this mechanic, but it's not an effect you *want* much of in a set, if at all. This won't play very well because it won't go off as often as you might think and be frustratingly unreliable to build around.
Assuming it's the transform part, I'd say this is too much of a big splashy thing to tie to one faction. Especially considering if you're going to do a splashy transformation mechanic in Tarkir it should probably be Morph. If you were to use transform and DFCs, I would at least make it faction neutral so everybody gets some.
Edict
Like with a creature dealt combat damage dies mechanic, this doesn't seem like an effect you'd want to put that much of in a set. In this case, this mechanic is pretty powerful and 'swingy'. It stacks aggressively and has a very high power ceiling with how many creatures you can buff at once. It's not out of the question- this is something you'd want to test- but I'm pretty wary. Especially when this isn't the most interesting effect in general, and quite similar to previous Mardu mechanics, despite the theme of shifting the factions. I suppose it's kind of more white in that it specifically cares about a big team, but that's pretty minimal when the others also liked having a bunch of creatures, just less specifically.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice