I do not think the only issue with fetches is the searching. The other problem is that every multi-colored deck basically needs to run fetches and the fetches feed a lot of graveyard strategies.
While I can see where you're coming from in regards to rotating formats, I would counter with two points:
1. The longest reach that any rotating format has ever had was 4 years with extended. If we reach out to the apparent trouble-zone of ten years, a player might get their first pack of cards as a high school freshman and have those cards still be legal when they leave the game as a college senior. That type of longevity in a rotating format is all but unheard of.
Nope, when extended was introduced (1999) it was up to 7 years of cards and it rotated every 3 years.The first rotation was in 2002 and ice age, fallen empires, homelands were dropped, next roration was on 2005 and tempest, urza's and masques block went out. At some point they cut extended to 4 years.
The three block rotation was always awkward and clunky.
Extended never really went away. It is always going to be necessary to have a format for players to realistically graduate into after a rotation or two, but if it is boundless eventually that effect will be diluted. They will make Pioneer last as long as they can until it isn't filling that role any more, then they will make a new format and Pioneer will fall to the side. By not calling it extended, players will feel comfortable investing in the format and when it "rotates", it will be when the majority of players will be ready for a new format anyway.
In the meanwhile, Modern is likely to be "eternal 2.0". They can augment the power level and balance of the format with Modern Horizons style supplemental products and have an "eternal" format without the mar of the reserved list.
Yeah I very much see Modern becoming the new Legacy/Vintage. When Post-Pioneer comes out, I think Modern's fate will be 50/50. Modern will need a slew of reprints for the format's price of entry to remain where it is at today (very expensive) and not to devolve into Legacy/Vintage territory (waaaaay too expensive). If WotC can maintain where it is at today (or even a lower) then Modern will be fine. If they cannot, then I imagine Modern going by the wayside and Pioneer becoming Legacy 3.0 once Post-Pioneer comes out.
Personally, what I think we ultimately need is some sort of "extended+" rotating format that holds a full 10 years worth of cards.
The creation of modern 10 years into MTG, followed by Pioneer 10 years later, kind of shows that we run into accessibility issues (at least with Wizards' current business model) at about the 10 year mark. Giving cards a 10 year shelf-life wouldn't make cards a horrible investment for players who actively play, would give investors a decent window to speculate on cards, and gives Wizards more time to print out reprints (such as shock-lands or premium kill spells) if they want to keep cards in the format.
While Modern plays an admirable role as "eternal format without reserved list", pioneer can't be expected to act as the "huge but accessible format where newly rotated cards can still be played" in the long term unless all unbalanced cards that slip past Play Design eventually trickle out to keep people brewing.
Modern did not come about 10 years into MTG's life, it came in nearly 18 years into Magic's life (although the set WotC chose to lead Modern off with (8th Edition) was released 10 years into Magic's life).
I do not think the accessibility issue with Modern is due to the age of the sets because some of the most expensive cards are from Innistrad (the block that came out before RtR (which is the block that starts Pioneer)). The accessibility issue really has everything to do with WotC's refusal to meaningfully reprint modern staples.
Extended+ is a quality answer to the problem but it would never take hold because people *hate* rotating formats.
[quote from="Shadow345 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/814748-the-pioneer-format?comment=55"]Why Wizards of the Coast doesn't feel the need to officially discontinue Modern in favor of Pioneer is anyone's guess.
For the same reason they did not discontinue Vintage when Legacy came about, or discontinue Legacy & Vintage when Modern came about. You do not need to discontinue formats.
I feel like it could be a nice change. Including RTR seems like a good idea because it means we have access to a lot of extra cards that were not in Origins onwards that will police the format like thoughtseize, rest in peace, pithing needle, abrupt decay and supreme verdict.
Starting at RTR also means they avoid some of the problematic (and expensive (and Modern defining)) cards from Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged (which were likely also floated as the starting point for the format (since those 3 blocks were released around when Magic's popularity exploded)).
You sound like the people who derided Modern as a dead on arrival format because no one would play it instead of Legacy/Vintage.
This format will be popular if the card prices are not exorbitantly expensive (like Modern and Legacy/Vintage). If prices are kept in check, then that becomes the format's greatest selling point.
I want to like the idea of this new format, but I think it is going to have to much of a modern feel to it (fast) with empty holes. I personally would have been excited to play a new format if they would have started the card pool from Kaladesh onward. I see Kaladesh as the beginning of a new era in magic. I think there could have been a lot of good to come out of a potentially slower clock and maybe a turn 5 format. Now, I could just be biased since I am vested in modern so much. I hope this new format helps LGS's and doesn't hurt them more than WTC already has in the last year or so.
Kaladesh forward would just be Kaladesh and some other cards.
I would like it as a new extended. Modern is now a "new legacy" but every legal card can be reprinted. This is just a Modern without lots of cards that defined it, it is like a "hey lets do a modern format without the "good cards" from modern"... It is not that it is bad but id hope that the format had more changes than just be a new modern. How about rotation- like a big extended (lots of years), it would be nice to have a 8 years worth of cards format that rotated, this way wizards would always have a "flesh" format to show off as a new modern. Non rotation will only make new staples be discovered and soon after 3-4 years the format be almost like modern is today.
If it was new Legacy without reserve list, it would go back to Masques. I do agree this is trying to kill reserve list cards for good. They don't like Legacy. If Legacy goes, I go. I've been playing this game too long to watch them abandon the past.
This is a cash grab format. It allows them to have a modern that they don't have to worry about reprints tanking value. If you notice, the kick off point is the first set that started the era of huge print runs. Now they can reprint like crazy and keep the modern "money" stuff for Masters sets and charge $15 a pack for it. No more fetch lands in $3 packs. They won't worry about needing to reprint anything in standard that will piss off Modern players. They can just crank the stuff out. They will generate the big bucks from stupid stuff like Collectors Packs with 42 different borders and styles instead of anything of actual value from a play standpoint.
Everything you are saying applies to Modern when it came out.
i wonder why they didnt start with origin and call it "origin" as a format
would have been a much better marketing thing, especially since they said they wanna target newer players. how are 6 year old sets targeting older players ?
Because if you started with Origin, you eliminate 11 sets from the format. What you have left is a pretty shallow pool of available cards.
I would like it as a new extended. Modern is now a "new legacy" but every legal card can be reprinted. This is just a Modern without lots of cards that defined it, it is like a "hey lets do a modern format without the "good cards" from modern"... It is not that it is bad but id hope that the format had more changes than just be a new modern. How about rotation- like a big extended (lots of years), it would be nice to have a 8 years worth of cards format that rotated, this way wizards would always have a "flesh" format to show off as a new modern. Non rotation will only make new staples be discovered and soon after 3-4 years the format be almost like modern is today.
You are guaranteed to lose more people with a rotation than not. Rotations are simply that unpopular.
What a silly thing. They just arbitrarily picked a starting point instead of applying an ounce of logic for the format.
Any set you choose to be the start date is entirely arbitrary.
Only if you consider the starting point of Modern to be entirely arbitrary as well.
It IS entirely arbitrary to start the format when they release a new card frame. Visual updates have nothing to do with what makes a format fun, exciting or unique.
Additionally, the card frame is used for vintage/Legacy/Commander-only cards and reprints, which negates the whole point of using the new frame as a justification for easily determining what is and is not legal in a format.
What a silly thing. They just arbitrarily picked a starting point instead of applying an ounce of logic for the format.
I guess it's technically arbitrary, but it feels right. I had thought they were going to start with Origins to skip the fetches, but RTR is a much better starting point. it is the start of the higher print runs, it is the start of having very few super expensive cards, it is when the game got a HUGE influx of new players, it ties in nicely to the RTRTR that pretty much all current players know well, it was a golden age, and it was as far back as they could go without running into LotV type high price due to scarcity. like i said, i thought they were going to do Origins to skip the fetches, but RTR is where i personally would have put it, and the obvious place to put it if they were going to ban fetches. really the higher print run and more supply was probably one of the biggest deciding factors against going back earlier
What a silly thing. They just arbitrarily picked a starting point instead of applying an ounce of logic for the format.
I guess it's technically arbitrary, but it feels right. I had thought they were going to start with Origins to skip the fetches, but RTR is a much better starting point. it is the start of the higher print runs, it is the start of having very few super expensive cards, it is when the game got a HUGE influx of new players, it ties in nicely to the RTRTR that pretty much all current players know well, it was a golden age, and it was as far back as they could go without running into LotV type high price due to scarcity. like i said, i thought they were going to do Origins to skip the fetches, but RTR is where i personally would have put it, and the obvious place to put it if they were going to ban fetches. really the higher print run and more supply was probably one of the biggest deciding factors against going back earlier
I think there will be a lot of consternation that Innestrad was not the start date, since that was the set where the game's popularity really took off... But it is also a set with a lot of powerful and expensive cards, which is likely why it was not included.
Yeah, they probably should have banned the cards that were banned in standard like they did when modern first came out, like Aetherworks marvel and Emrakul, the promised end.
Nah. I would prefer a clean slate. Some of those cards could definitely be banned but I would rather the format grow and change naturally.
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The three block rotation was always awkward and clunky.
Yeah I very much see Modern becoming the new Legacy/Vintage. When Post-Pioneer comes out, I think Modern's fate will be 50/50. Modern will need a slew of reprints for the format's price of entry to remain where it is at today (very expensive) and not to devolve into Legacy/Vintage territory (waaaaay too expensive). If WotC can maintain where it is at today (or even a lower) then Modern will be fine. If they cannot, then I imagine Modern going by the wayside and Pioneer becoming Legacy 3.0 once Post-Pioneer comes out.
Modern did not come about 10 years into MTG's life, it came in nearly 18 years into Magic's life (although the set WotC chose to lead Modern off with (8th Edition) was released 10 years into Magic's life).
I do not think the accessibility issue with Modern is due to the age of the sets because some of the most expensive cards are from Innistrad (the block that came out before RtR (which is the block that starts Pioneer)). The accessibility issue really has everything to do with WotC's refusal to meaningfully reprint modern staples.
Extended+ is a quality answer to the problem but it would never take hold because people *hate* rotating formats.
For the same reason they did not discontinue Vintage when Legacy came about, or discontinue Legacy & Vintage when Modern came about. You do not need to discontinue formats.
Starting at RTR also means they avoid some of the problematic (and expensive (and Modern defining)) cards from Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged (which were likely also floated as the starting point for the format (since those 3 blocks were released around when Magic's popularity exploded)).
You sound like the people who derided Modern as a dead on arrival format because no one would play it instead of Legacy/Vintage.
This format will be popular if the card prices are not exorbitantly expensive (like Modern and Legacy/Vintage). If prices are kept in check, then that becomes the format's greatest selling point.
Kaladesh forward would just be Kaladesh and some other cards.
Everything you are saying applies to Modern when it came out.
Because if you started with Origin, you eliminate 11 sets from the format. What you have left is a pretty shallow pool of available cards.
You are guaranteed to lose more people with a rotation than not. Rotations are simply that unpopular.
It IS entirely arbitrary to start the format when they release a new card frame. Visual updates have nothing to do with what makes a format fun, exciting or unique.
Additionally, the card frame is used for vintage/Legacy/Commander-only cards and reprints, which negates the whole point of using the new frame as a justification for easily determining what is and is not legal in a format.
I think there will be a lot of consternation that Innestrad was not the start date, since that was the set where the game's popularity really took off... But it is also a set with a lot of powerful and expensive cards, which is likely why it was not included.
Any set you choose to be the start date is entirely arbitrary.
Nah. I would prefer a clean slate. Some of those cards could definitely be banned but I would rather the format grow and change naturally.