I mean, at best what you should be advocating for is more PoC instead of calling the Queen out of place, because you're in a thread where people are calling her out of place because Eldraine should be white people only. At worst you're being disingenuous or other negative traits with your argument and it's just an attempt to mask the insincerity.
And there isn't any reason for backstory because the intent is to not treat it as a special thing. Different people will respond to that in different ways, but making a huge deal about it isn't something that would be met with positive acclaim either. It's pretty close to a no win situation.
This is a special thing. It’s a legendary card. She is a queen. Married to the King. Who is the father of our 2 main characters. All 3 or which do not share similar characteristics. Is it a big deal? Yeah, it kind of is. My point, again, that “‘Cuz Fantasy” just doesn’t cut it. Beyond the fact that there is source material, there is also actual real world implications. Black people aren't black just because that’s the way it is.
If there isn’t a reason for her existence, then why does she? Being able to relate doesn’t just go skin deep. Then, peeps like my daughter could have an actual reason to gravitate towards her.
So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.
For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.
[quote from="Buffsam89 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/814047-eld-mothership-spoilers-9-16-queen-linden-and-her?comment=69"]Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
Now, when you went to say that your ideal fantasy world meant no black people, then maybe you were being just a little overconfident about your ability to stand your ground...
Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.
You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.
A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?
Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?
I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
So to reiterate, for those in the back, where the f*** are the rest of the people that share her characteristics? That’s the point. That is what leads me to believe she is only there to check a damn box. In what world is there exactly one person who looks/acts as they do?
Color aside, let’s say she speaks freaking French. Would that make a lick of sense? I’d want to know why.
My question isn’t why is she black, it’s why is she the only black person depicted in this set. That’s normal? There’s what, ~250 cards in this set? It’s normal to reserve 1-3 card slots for art with PoC? By my count, there exactly 3 that clearly depict a PoC in the art. None in crowds.
You people sit up here and bang the drum of “good job wizards”, yet I’m like, ok you could’ve done more. You don’t normalize anything by introducing in small doses. Give this women some staying power here. Give her a reason to exist.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
You truly have been on the receiving end of some pretty big injustices here. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at what you had to go through. If there's anything I can do, let me know. You've been through some s****y stuff on this thread page, been judged and whatnot. Shame on all these people. Shame on them.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
@gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
No actually that’s exactly the point I was making. Her race isn’t relevant. It’s not relevant to her individual character or any tropes she could be portraying. The same way it’s fine to have female knights because gender isn’t relevant to them or the dictions that inspire them. They could be any race, gender or sex and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like, because she’s dark skinned she’s been through the same thing black people in our world have. I’m not going to go into the ridiculousness of “representation other than to say that if you need someone to look like you in order to empathize with their struggles and journey or to think that you could achieve similarly then that’s a deficiency in you and no one else. Skin color doesn’t matter.
So this makes the point I was making. I’m not saying that she needs a tragic backstory. But, is it not reasonable to ask why she is who she is? She is a legendary creature after all. There has to be a reason they chose a black woman to be the Twins step-mother, meaning she’s queen. Married to a white man. I’m not suggesting there be incredible detail, but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of barriers, there should be a level of significance to it. If you’re cool with checked boxes, that’s fine. But, I can assure you that’s not the same as respresentation.
Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
Ah, yes, PoC will surely hang their hat on this achievement, being represented on a single card, without any context, in a TCG designed for tweens. Present them their participation trophy and call it a day, #winning.
It boggles my mind that people are so stuck on this. Her skin color literally doesn’t matter. They could have made her green with purple spots and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Her skin color is not relevant to her character or story arc. For the love of god people just let it go.
Yup. And it's pretty disheartening to come to this site which for years has been a great forum to discuss Magic spoilers and to be presented with some bigot's unwanted hot takes about how diversity is bad and its ruining muh Magic the Gathering. There are countless places where you can go and be racist on the internet but this isn't one of them.
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
For instance-
I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed.
I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
This is a special thing. It’s a legendary card. She is a queen. Married to the King. Who is the father of our 2 main characters. All 3 or which do not share similar characteristics. Is it a big deal? Yeah, it kind of is. My point, again, that “‘Cuz Fantasy” just doesn’t cut it. Beyond the fact that there is source material, there is also actual real world implications. Black people aren't black just because that’s the way it is.
If there isn’t a reason for her existence, then why does she? Being able to relate doesn’t just go skin deep. Then, peeps like my daughter could have an actual reason to gravitate towards her.
For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.
Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit.
That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.
Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.
You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.
A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?
Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?
I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.
<snip>
So, normal is, in a world full of Fae, Giants, Elves, etc., there is exactly one black woman who is Queen? That’s out of place. There is no context. Where the hell did she come from? If she was a purple elf, and there were no other elves present, I would be asking the same damn question.
So to reiterate, for those in the back, where the f*** are the rest of the people that share her characteristics? That’s the point. That is what leads me to believe she is only there to check a damn box. In what world is there exactly one person who looks/acts as they do?
Color aside, let’s say she speaks freaking French. Would that make a lick of sense? I’d want to know why.
My question isn’t why is she black, it’s why is she the only black person depicted in this set. That’s normal? There’s what, ~250 cards in this set? It’s normal to reserve 1-3 card slots for art with PoC? By my count, there exactly 3 that clearly depict a PoC in the art. None in crowds.
You people sit up here and bang the drum of “good job wizards”, yet I’m like, ok you could’ve done more. You don’t normalize anything by introducing in small doses. Give this women some staying power here. Give her a reason to exist.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
So this makes the point I was making. I’m not saying that she needs a tragic backstory. But, is it not reasonable to ask why she is who she is? She is a legendary creature after all. There has to be a reason they chose a black woman to be the Twins step-mother, meaning she’s queen. Married to a white man. I’m not suggesting there be incredible detail, but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of barriers, there should be a level of significance to it. If you’re cool with checked boxes, that’s fine. But, I can assure you that’s not the same as respresentation.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
<snip>
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
For instance-
I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
<snip>