Instead, as somebody who has played this game at a high level in my 20's and now only plays casually in my mid 30's, I find myself questioning game balance, game theory, card design, deck construction and so forth...
I often think about these things too, and i can't possibly fathom how people take demonic tutor for granted.
It's way weaker in 60 cards format than in commander. With 60 cards and 4 copies, you have way more chance to get the card you want at the right moment than in commander, where you have 100 cards and 1 copy. Demonic tutor is way more strong in commander than in Legacy and Vintage for this mathematical reason alone. Yet it is banned and restricted in those format and untouched in commander.
It's a similar reason to why lightning bolt is one of the best modern cards but is mediocre in commander. It's simple math. The math at the basis of the formats is different.
Fun fact: wotc is still printing tutors at 1-2 mana, we got one in m20 and one in Eldraine. But these ones, of course, are balanced. But why even caring about balanced cards when you have demonic tutor?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
seem to keep missing specific points and cherry-picking what to reply to. If you're to the point of bringing up ancestral in this argument then I'm thinking this is just a waste if time.
Yeah... your argument still doesn't make sense. I can maybe get it for crop rotation and sylvan scrying, but farseek? cultivate? explosive vegetation? ...really?. It's like saying that if you want to ban 3 cmc tutors, then you have to ban divination too.
Color pie give each color different advantages. Blue has card advantage, green has ramp, black has tutors. This still doesn't make 1 and 2 cmc tutors any less broken, like ancestral recal and time walk are broken at 1-2 mana.
By the way i already house banned the tutors i mentioned times ago and me and my friends are really happy about that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
The very first sentence I said in this topic was how if people complain about demonic tutor to the point of banning it, then this is complaining about is the color pie. Strict tutoring has been a black effect since alpha. If you want to ban something that is a part of a color identity then you probably just need to make personal house rules for your friends to decide.
This point makes no sense. Ancestral Recall has been in blue's color pie since alpha. And it still is. But it need to cost at least 2UU otherwise it's broken as *****.
Same for Time Walk VS Time Warp
Is it really that difficult to say the same about tutors?
Yeah and who the hell cares? You are comparing two completely different effects, they have nothing to do with each other. How can you compare a basic land with... everything? The tutor target can be ******* anything, rampant growth target is a selection of six cards.
It's like comparing Wood Elemental and Solemn Simulacrum because they both cost 4, or Dark Confidant and Shambling Ghoul because they have both 2 power.
They are completely different cards that fills different niches and have different power levels.
In terms of just an average table there are less than 5 playable and efficient strict demonic tutor effects. There may be a few highly specific off-color tutors to help like mystical tutor/fabricate/gamble/etc.
I provided a list of the tutors i consider broken, no need to reset the discussion.
But my opinion stays - if you want to ban an effect that one color is known for, then you're just unbalancing the game and showing other color(s) favoritism. That should stay at your own table as a house rule.
Also, i'd really like to know how in your meta these evil blue-green decks can go from t2 rampant growth to t4 "something that has to be very relevant" to win against multiple opponents, because i still don't get it and i still don't understand how fast tutors couldn't improve these decks too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
About the "singleton restriction" of the format, do you feel the same about Relentless Rats?
Really? We are comparing tutors to vanillas now?
Kinda tired of these thread, it's just full of false equivalence.
Tutors can be removals, counters, wrath and missing combo pieces all in one card. Do not compare them to other cards that can't do the same
The singleton nature of the format make it so the card OP McBrokenFace maybe be strong as ***** in my deck, but in the end it's just a single card inside a 100-card deck. I can't expect to use it everygame.
Tutors can act as copy #2, #3, #4 and even #5 of that cards, enormously increasing its chance to appear in almost every game.
And they can also be more versatile than that!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If your thesis is that rampant growth and similar ramps help a combo more than demonic tutor... well, does that really need an answer?
I'm not at all sure how you arrived to this thesis, so I have absolutely no idea how to even reply to this.
Not so hard. First you said that banning demonic tutor would be unfair without also banning rampant growth and similar cards. Then you said that tutors are necessary in casual to beat green-blue decks that use rampant growth. So...
Also, rampant growth is op but cultivate is fine? You sure have some weird power level meters...
I reiterate my opinion to ban all the fast tutors. They are far too versatile, can be played the same turn as the tutored cards and can make you win out of nowhere. It's pointless to have a singleton restriction if your deck can contain some wildcards (great analogy)that for 1-2 mana can be everything else. If you need to tutor that bad, you still have diabolic tutor
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
My complaint here is that an average budget green/blue ramp deck can typically outperform an optimal non-green non-combo deck.
Your problem then is with the non-combo part, not the ramp part. A jank combo deck can easily crush jank aggro/control decks without combo. A jank ramp deck that goes through combat isn't anything exceptional.
And guess what? Combo is the archetype that get helped the most by tutors. By a really wide margin. If your thesis is that rampant growth and similar ramps help a combo more than demonic tutor... well, does that really need an answer?
And still, talking about rampant growth and cultivate and so on like they are big boogeymans while every deck has access to sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault is kinda laughable too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
[quote from="Macabre »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/813822-beating-a-dead-horse-tutors-in-commander?comment=11"Mass land-ramp decks tend to plaque casual tables and green/blue/x casual ramp decks are, imo, the worst. I have a typical ramp bant deck and it feels like every win was never deserved. I honestly feel that they are the catalyst for most issues in the format. To answer a deck that can consistently put 8 lands into play around turn 5 to 6, you have to make a quicker deck full of fast mana (which people complain about), and a fast combo win (which people complain about), and the tutors to get these parts (which people complain about).[/quote]
Or maybe people play noncompetitive commander to enjoy that ramp and battlecruiser playstyle that sucks everywhere else?
To stop a deck with 8 lands that isn't comboing out but need to go through combat you just need a murder.
Your argoment seems really biased, considering that it started with comparing a card banned and restricted almost everywhere to... rampant growth, which is ***** even in pauper
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I often think about these things too, and i can't possibly fathom how people take demonic tutor for granted.
It's way weaker in 60 cards format than in commander. With 60 cards and 4 copies, you have way more chance to get the card you want at the right moment than in commander, where you have 100 cards and 1 copy. Demonic tutor is way more strong in commander than in Legacy and Vintage for this mathematical reason alone. Yet it is banned and restricted in those format and untouched in commander.
It's a similar reason to why lightning bolt is one of the best modern cards but is mediocre in commander. It's simple math. The math at the basis of the formats is different.
Fun fact: wotc is still printing tutors at 1-2 mana, we got one in m20 and one in Eldraine. But these ones, of course, are balanced. But why even caring about balanced cards when you have demonic tutor?
So you can do it but i can't? Ok i guess
Yeah... your argument still doesn't make sense. I can maybe get it for crop rotation and sylvan scrying, but farseek? cultivate? explosive vegetation? ...really?. It's like saying that if you want to ban 3 cmc tutors, then you have to ban divination too.
Color pie give each color different advantages. Blue has card advantage, green has ramp, black has tutors. This still doesn't make 1 and 2 cmc tutors any less broken, like ancestral recal and time walk are broken at 1-2 mana.
By the way i already house banned the tutors i mentioned times ago and me and my friends are really happy about that.
This point makes no sense. Ancestral Recall has been in blue's color pie since alpha. And it still is. But it need to cost at least 2UU otherwise it's broken as *****.
Same for Time Walk VS Time Warp
Is it really that difficult to say the same about tutors?
Yeah and who the hell cares? You are comparing two completely different effects, they have nothing to do with each other. How can you compare a basic land with... everything? The tutor target can be ******* anything, rampant growth target is a selection of six cards.
It's like comparing Wood Elemental and Solemn Simulacrum because they both cost 4, or Dark Confidant and Shambling Ghoul because they have both 2 power.
They are completely different cards that fills different niches and have different power levels.
I provided a list of the tutors i consider broken, no need to reset the discussion.
And again, Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are banned yet blue is still a thriving color.
Also, i'd really like to know how in your meta these evil blue-green decks can go from t2 rampant growth to t4 "something that has to be very relevant" to win against multiple opponents, because i still don't get it and i still don't understand how fast tutors couldn't improve these decks too.
Really? We are comparing tutors to vanillas now?
Kinda tired of these thread, it's just full of false equivalence.
Tutors can be removals, counters, wrath and missing combo pieces all in one card. Do not compare them to other cards that can't do the same
The singleton nature of the format make it so the card OP McBrokenFace maybe be strong as ***** in my deck, but in the end it's just a single card inside a 100-card deck. I can't expect to use it everygame.
Tutors can act as copy #2, #3, #4 and even #5 of that cards, enormously increasing its chance to appear in almost every game.
And they can also be more versatile than that!
Not so hard. First you said that banning demonic tutor would be unfair without also banning rampant growth and similar cards. Then you said that tutors are necessary in casual to beat green-blue decks that use rampant growth. So...
Also, rampant growth is op but cultivate is fine? You sure have some weird power level meters...
I reiterate my opinion to ban all the fast tutors. They are far too versatile, can be played the same turn as the tutored cards and can make you win out of nowhere. It's pointless to have a singleton restriction if your deck can contain some wildcards (great analogy)that for 1-2 mana can be everything else. If you need to tutor that bad, you still have diabolic tutor
Your problem then is with the non-combo part, not the ramp part. A jank combo deck can easily crush jank aggro/control decks without combo. A jank ramp deck that goes through combat isn't anything exceptional.
And guess what? Combo is the archetype that get helped the most by tutors. By a really wide margin. If your thesis is that rampant growth and similar ramps help a combo more than demonic tutor... well, does that really need an answer?
And still, talking about rampant growth and cultivate and so on like they are big boogeymans while every deck has access to sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault is kinda laughable too.
Or maybe people play noncompetitive commander to enjoy that ramp and battlecruiser playstyle that sucks everywhere else?
To stop a deck with 8 lands that isn't comboing out but need to go through combat you just need a murder.
Your argoment seems really biased, considering that it started with comparing a card banned and restricted almost everywhere to... rampant growth, which is ***** even in pauper
and then have fun