Menery's name goes back in the formats history but he didn't "bring us the game." His original work for the game was pro tour league stuff.
I've been trying to keep my comments specifically about the banlist, not the integrity of the people who influence it. Believe me, I have a strong opinion on menery. I've played with him on two different occasions at larger events and would have absolutely had more fun at any neighboring table.
@bobthefunny the exact wording I said is "when the pilot is slow at math." I'm not sure how you took that and simplified it to "people are bad at math."
From my experiance, from multiple playgroups and public events ranging large to small, with power level ranging from 2 to 10, the most common complaint about engine is when the pilot is slow at figuring out how to deploy spells. This is easily fixed with either help or practice. Banning a card that may be too complex for people to enjoy honestly just dumbs down the format in a way it doesn't need to be.
I'm pretty much done with this topic. My main group has already adjusted the banlist to our own level. If relevant information as to why someone decided to unban painter surfaces then I'll revisit. Until then there isn't anything to gain here.
Engine is just one of many enablers in the game. It's a strong enabler but not at all near the best enabler.
The issue it causes players is when the pilot is slow at math, not what the card adds to the game. The fix to this problem is helping your friend, not banning a card.
There are many casual non-storm/combo decks that use engine fairly. The "fun-suck" is when those decks get weakened by random bans and drop below an acceptable playable strength. I wasn't the only person in my playgroup that had a casual deck that uses engine to untap a fun commander with a fun tap ability.
<Mod snip> -Ad hominem attacks are not acceptable on mtgs
I have yet to see or hear a single good excuse for unbanning painter. There are other cards on the banlist that can be set free. The before mentioned panoptic mirror, which is terribly slow compared to what kefnit+turns is capable of doing now. If they want to keep the list short, then unban braids, because banning a card using mtgo as an excuse was silly. Why not gifts ungiven (because intuition isn't), biorhythm when we have shaman of forgotten ways, or coalition victory which fails to a creature removal spell or strip mine and we have approach the second sun which is far easier to control?
Really why did they choose painter when there are multiple other safer options.
That "just win" issue is why I don't mind seeing iona on the field, even if it's locking me out. If the player actually spent the mana to slam it, good for them for making it that far, but they could have resolved a bigger threat that could have ended the game. Same is true if they spent the resources to trick it into play. It could have been a game-ending card but instead it's a medium annoyance that doesn't end the game.
My playgroup isn't cedh, and while we do have competitive decks, iona isn't good enough for any of them. Our deck strength average is around a 6 and iona would never be good enough at our table. It truly is a medium-to-bad trap card. It's a learning experience that is eventually unsleeved and forgotten about. But hey this is what they think is a ban-worthy card.
This argument about running colorless answers is a joke. all is dust, ugin, the spirit dragon, perilous vault, and oblivion stone are better cards than iona. Others like duplicant and spine may even be synergistic for the deck, because most artifact decks I've seen run those too. If you're not already playing those, then either your meta is too quick and there isn't an iona, your meta is too weak and there still isn't an iona, or your choosing to not play obviously good cards that can answer any number of threats.
I love when modern bans occur because there are solid reasoning and you can actually follow the thought process as to why something was banned. For example bridge was just banned to tone down hogaack. Doesn't kill the deck, does affect dredge to the point that it's not overshadowed by hogaack, and the degenerate potential turn-1 wins from neoform were left alone because development looked at the % of players actually using the deck and its performance. Not the complaints but the performance.
Now then we have edh bans where painter was unbanned by someone who complains about combos in edh, and build-around cards like engine are banned when if he really understood how those decks worked then he could have just banned dramatic reversal - a card that only exists in the format to be abused.
Maybe he was just terrified that people would break urza (and to a lesser extent golos, tireless pilgrim) with engine. I'm so glad that infinite mana commanders can't be broken still in this format with other combos that cost less mana investment and card density to start up.
Look, whatever reason is keeping Panoptic Mirror banned is basically the same reason Paradox Engine is banned. Paradox Engine is essentially the cEDH version of Panoptic Mirror (i.e. an engine that turns into a perpetual motion machine too easily and too accidentally with cards everyone already has in every deck).
Panoptic mirror should have been unbanned a long time ago. We are in an age of God-Eternal Kefnet + turn spells, The mana cost and time investment on panoptic mirror is a joke compared to what is possible now.
My complaint is mainly how engine was banned over more obvious cards.
Slamming paradox engine doesn't just win the game. It requires resolving a 5cmc artifact, an already existing large density of mana tapping effects, spells to cast, and some sort of card advantage to actually work. Sometimes these elements can be combined.
Dramatic scepter has a much smaller mana investment and startup cost, and the parts can be used early if needed for other effects.
If paradox engine is the focus of the deck an it's delt with, then the deck will likely fail since such a large % of it is dedicated space for the engine parts. If a part of dramatic scepter is delt with then the deck has room to build some other wincon.
If these people actually wanted to stop the degenerate combos that use these effects then they could just get rid of Thrasios.
Currently my group is talking about just making our own house banlist because it's clear to us that this official banlist is limited by the exposure of those who run it. I don't think our group is compatible in any way with menery.
Duplicat, spine, ugin, all is dust, etc all see play in my area, while iona was always considered too slow.
Llawan represents a single card + commander that prevents people from playing their commander and a fraction of their deck, hyper early in the game, until an answer is found. And if that answer isn't krosan grip it can be countered.
Not all decks rely on creatures but if they rely on something like reclamation sage then they are doomed.
What if the painter deck resolves douse or ugin? Sounds like a good fun time.
With the artifact tutors blue has, this turns off all creature based decks extremely quick. So if there is such a consistent anti-creature deck possible, isn't the answer to just play more degenerate combos?
It really bugs me that paradox engine was banned. Yes it's a strong enabler but it's often times considered strictly worse than scepter+dramatic reversal. Engine decks are flooded with mana rocks to a degree that they tend to fail if the engine is answered. The majority of complaints regarding engine is the actual speed of playing out the turns due to player inexperience, and this is easily fixed by assisting the player or just stop harassing/complaining so they have a chance to learn how to play out the engine scenarios.
If this is the sort of banning that they think is important for the format then I'm really worried about what sort of decks they are exposed to, because their group must be very... very.... very limited.
There are many fair decks that can run engine in a non-degenerate way. Something like my 8+ year old rakka mar deck hardly ever gets new cards but I guess I have to remove this now and power her back down from a 6 to a 5.
So they unban painter, so I guess they want everyone to start playing at least one eldrazi titan to answer a possible cheap and quick mill combo? Imperial painter is a legitimate (although not tier 1) legacy deck that can easily win on the first few turns. With the artifact synergy commanders we have already is this not just the dumbest thing to unban? Or maybe they really do like playing against eldrazi titans because my main playgroup has already decided to just stuff one in each deck.
I've been trying to keep my comments specifically about the banlist, not the integrity of the people who influence it. Believe me, I have a strong opinion on menery. I've played with him on two different occasions at larger events and would have absolutely had more fun at any neighboring table.
@bobthefunny the exact wording I said is "when the pilot is slow at math." I'm not sure how you took that and simplified it to "people are bad at math."
From my experiance, from multiple playgroups and public events ranging large to small, with power level ranging from 2 to 10, the most common complaint about engine is when the pilot is slow at figuring out how to deploy spells. This is easily fixed with either help or practice. Banning a card that may be too complex for people to enjoy honestly just dumbs down the format in a way it doesn't need to be.
I'm pretty much done with this topic. My main group has already adjusted the banlist to our own level. If relevant information as to why someone decided to unban painter surfaces then I'll revisit. Until then there isn't anything to gain here.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
The issue it causes players is when the pilot is slow at math, not what the card adds to the game. The fix to this problem is helping your friend, not banning a card.
There are many casual non-storm/combo decks that use engine fairly. The "fun-suck" is when those decks get weakened by random bans and drop below an acceptable playable strength. I wasn't the only person in my playgroup that had a casual deck that uses engine to untap a fun commander with a fun tap ability.
<Mod snip> -Ad hominem attacks are not acceptable on mtgs
I have yet to see or hear a single good excuse for unbanning painter. There are other cards on the banlist that can be set free. The before mentioned panoptic mirror, which is terribly slow compared to what kefnit+turns is capable of doing now. If they want to keep the list short, then unban braids, because banning a card using mtgo as an excuse was silly. Why not gifts ungiven (because intuition isn't), biorhythm when we have shaman of forgotten ways, or coalition victory which fails to a creature removal spell or strip mine and we have approach the second sun which is far easier to control?
Really why did they choose painter when there are multiple other safer options.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
My playgroup isn't cedh, and while we do have competitive decks, iona isn't good enough for any of them. Our deck strength average is around a 6 and iona would never be good enough at our table. It truly is a medium-to-bad trap card. It's a learning experience that is eventually unsleeved and forgotten about. But hey this is what they think is a ban-worthy card.
This argument about running colorless answers is a joke. all is dust, ugin, the spirit dragon, perilous vault, and oblivion stone are better cards than iona. Others like duplicant and spine may even be synergistic for the deck, because most artifact decks I've seen run those too. If you're not already playing those, then either your meta is too quick and there isn't an iona, your meta is too weak and there still isn't an iona, or your choosing to not play obviously good cards that can answer any number of threats.
I love when modern bans occur because there are solid reasoning and you can actually follow the thought process as to why something was banned. For example bridge was just banned to tone down hogaack. Doesn't kill the deck, does affect dredge to the point that it's not overshadowed by hogaack, and the degenerate potential turn-1 wins from neoform were left alone because development looked at the % of players actually using the deck and its performance. Not the complaints but the performance.
Now then we have edh bans where painter was unbanned by someone who complains about combos in edh, and build-around cards like engine are banned when if he really understood how those decks worked then he could have just banned dramatic reversal - a card that only exists in the format to be abused.
Maybe he was just terrified that people would break urza (and to a lesser extent golos, tireless pilgrim) with engine. I'm so glad that infinite mana commanders can't be broken still in this format with other combos that cost less mana investment and card density to start up.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Panoptic mirror should have been unbanned a long time ago. We are in an age of God-Eternal Kefnet + turn spells, The mana cost and time investment on panoptic mirror is a joke compared to what is possible now.
My complaint is mainly how engine was banned over more obvious cards.
Slamming paradox engine doesn't just win the game. It requires resolving a 5cmc artifact, an already existing large density of mana tapping effects, spells to cast, and some sort of card advantage to actually work. Sometimes these elements can be combined.
Dramatic scepter has a much smaller mana investment and startup cost, and the parts can be used early if needed for other effects.
If paradox engine is the focus of the deck an it's delt with, then the deck will likely fail since such a large % of it is dedicated space for the engine parts. If a part of dramatic scepter is delt with then the deck has room to build some other wincon.
If these people actually wanted to stop the degenerate combos that use these effects then they could just get rid of Thrasios.
Currently my group is talking about just making our own house banlist because it's clear to us that this official banlist is limited by the exposure of those who run it. I don't think our group is compatible in any way with menery.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Llawan represents a single card + commander that prevents people from playing their commander and a fraction of their deck, hyper early in the game, until an answer is found. And if that answer isn't krosan grip it can be countered.
Not all decks rely on creatures but if they rely on something like reclamation sage then they are doomed.
What if the painter deck resolves douse or ugin? Sounds like a good fun time.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
With the artifact tutors blue has, this turns off all creature based decks extremely quick. So if there is such a consistent anti-creature deck possible, isn't the answer to just play more degenerate combos?
So why is iona banned again?
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
If this is the sort of banning that they think is important for the format then I'm really worried about what sort of decks they are exposed to, because their group must be very... very.... very limited.
There are many fair decks that can run engine in a non-degenerate way. Something like my 8+ year old rakka mar deck hardly ever gets new cards but I guess I have to remove this now and power her back down from a 6 to a 5.
So they unban painter, so I guess they want everyone to start playing at least one eldrazi titan to answer a possible cheap and quick mill combo? Imperial painter is a legitimate (although not tier 1) legacy deck that can easily win on the first few turns. With the artifact synergy commanders we have already is this not just the dumbest thing to unban? Or maybe they really do like playing against eldrazi titans because my main playgroup has already decided to just stuff one in each deck.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!