Wanting us to self police does way more harm than good. Ban cards that you think don’t belong in the format, don’t say they’re mean and contribute to group infighting.
I strongly disagree: Adults should be able to self-police, and it keeps the ban list short. He is allowed an opinion on what he does not like to see without just making everyone do so with a ban.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
you think he went out of his way to find that combo and that's some horrible offense, but it really isn't. its natural progression of the game. if he went out of his way to find a combo, or he found it accidentally, it doesn't really make a difference. this just happens to be the one he used. there have been a lot of games over the years where i've seen someone go 'oh that's a combo' and they've woops into it and now its what they gun for every time.
And there are people who go 'whoa need to change one of those cards'. Claiming build to infinite and power is natural rejects people's choice.
you can't really stop the arms race that is magic deck building. you can try to mitigate it through bannings, but thats about it. even then you ban one thing and then something else crops up, then something else, then something else, then something else.
the philosophy behind edh was sound years ago, or would be with a very static pool of cards to pick from. that's not a reality that exists with new sets coming out all the time. every single set ends up with cards that break other cards intentional or otherwise. players find them. even a casual group will become competitive
No, groups often self-mitigate because they don't want to deal with this stuff. Stating the opposite as a known fact is just purposely disingenuous
to ban iona... can you remember the last time you even saw someone PLAY iona?
Yes, it sucked. Just like it sucked every time. Banning stuff like that should be exactly what the list hits.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
cEDH player checking in with some of my thoughts, though it sounds like we're all at least mostly in agreement.
Firstly, combos are easier, faster, more available, and more resilient nowadays. That's just going to happen as you print more cards. But would I say combo is more prevalent? No. I don't think so at all. If people are going down the combo route now, they would have done so before. Arms race was happening in my playgroup in 2011, it's the natural progression of things. Why is Sheldon talking about it now? Because he's starting to actually play EDH with people outside his niche and realizing that a large percentage of people don't play the game the way he does. Immediately after, he started the Commander Advisory Group as a way to combat being so out of the loop.
Anyone pretending Sheldon just now started playing with people outside "his niche" really have not been paying attention.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
All I have to say “don’t ban the good/overpowered/degenerate/etc combo pieces because people will just side grade”. So.....for clarity sake we shouldn’t ban a card like Griselbrand or more relevantly Prophet because YawWill/Necro and Seedborn Muse all exist?
I think the difference is, the next best combo piece is probably almost as good as the next, so 'downgrade' is minimal. The downside of Griz or Seed is the step down is a STEP DOWN. Same goes for mana rocks, ie anything that gives out more than it costs.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Changing to 30 life will change the format far more than banning even a large number of combo cards.
They already moved it down once, and it was not the end of the world. The original rules was 200/(#of players). Yes I think it would have a strong affect, but so would a reversal on combo. They have been more permissive of the archetype, not less, the last few years. Reversing course and upsetting the idea of 'play good cards responsibly' takes a hit.
Again, 30 also lightly disrupts the ramp into infinity games. And helps people team up to kill established threats.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
One archetype that hasn't been discussed so far is Ramp. Lower life total definitely helps aggro vs ramp.
Here is something I agree with. Also ramp is considered a 'fair' play style, even if you are dead but don't know it because they have twice as many lands as you.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Why? I feel like 40 life started as a way to make games long and epic, and now it's rotting away at our foundations because it pushes people who aren't deliberately avoiding them into more and more efficient wincons, which are less and less interesting. A good idea in theory, ruined by human nature.
Then we just disagree about what 40 life does. I see it as a buffer so you don't have to have blockers T2 or just get zerged to death. You can pop a fetchland, or use a painland T3, and not have to worry if thats your death 3 turns from now. I think 30 would be a fine adjustment to 'tune up' aggro / midrange.
But that wont stop Combo from being the most efficient.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I did, an I reiterate my question: talking about how the "descent into infinite" mentality is bad for the game is a nice exercise of rhetoric, but what would you folks actually DO about it?
Convince other people its not where the game should be. The other option I see is a hundred card ban list, and no one wants that.
2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
Thats the thing, I don't see what Sheldon is saying as grumbling about winning with combo. If you are about the same power level, around the same turn I don't see an issue with that per se. Now if you are tutoring for combo pieces and winning around T8, I may ask you to play something else. Another issue is Dramatic Scepter can all happen in one turn, those other items take setup, so some folks see that as not the same power level.
The thing you do to fix combos is lower the starting life total. When winning via damage is more feasible, combo will cease to be the only option to compete at powerful tables, and groups can "degenerate" without all becoming combo focused out of necessity.
I dont think the difference between 90 and 120 makes this happen. And anything under 30 is going to be to low to me in EDH. YMMV
You are responsible for cultivating the environment you want to play in. Be a poaitive influence rather than a cry baby who takes its ball amd goes home when it doesn't get its way. Cut toxic people from your life if they are unrrasonable.
If people refuse to be a part of the power level the majority wants, is refusing to play with them 'taking your ball and going home'?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
So my conclusion is this: some feel combos are a problem, and some feel the oppressive decks that would be nigh impossible to bring down without combos are the real problem... But regardless of which side you're on, in the end the fact of the matter is that a solution cannot be found without greatly diminishing what the format is about. So this discussion is essentially destined to go nowhere.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
You just said in that post up there that magic cards are not designed to combo.
It is one of the most factually inaccurate things I have ever seen anyone say about this game.
Harp on that if you like. Lets actually talk about EDH:
Infinite combo is not a pillar of EDH, it was fairly recently the RC started to unban combo pieces. The creators are speaking out about it negatively. The RC has always been in that general vicinity in regards to infinite combo.
Making out like this is some new twist is intellectually dishonest.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Taleran has, by highlighting some absurd claims. Cards interacting with one another in synergistic ways, which is the core notion of a combo, is a central element of this game and its design, and always has been. Regardless of finite or infinite, claiming that MTG does not have the ideas of combo in its core design seems willfully misguided.
I didnt say that, which is part of my issue with implying something not easily deciphered.I said infinite combos are not a pillar of EDH. I think that is backed up by both the creators saying it should not be option one all the time, and some used to actually be banned out of the format.
Trying to smash synergy and infinite combo into the same idea is "willfully misguided", as someone once said.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
That still doesn't make sense because combo is one of the pillar archetypes of the format and of magic the gathering and magic cards are deigned to interact together in combos.
Combo isn't one of the pillars of EDH. There was a time when strong combo pieces were outright banned. People can make a lot of arguments in favor of combo, but that surely isn't one of them.
Again, the point of the post was about unknown groups (LGS, MagicFest, etc) and how those have deteriorated to such a degree. It has not always been like this. I had the absolute worst game of EDH I have ever played this last weekend at MagicFest Seattle.
And cards obviously are not designed to combo together, they banned it out of Standard recently. Yes many cards within the decades do so, and I honestly get why people play them: Some games need to end.
I think its socially lacking to pub stomp people because you know they are playing '75%' and likely wont be able to stop a combo with counter back-up.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
People seem to be purposely missing his point. He didn't say 'don't play combo' or anything that approached that. His issue was with going straight for combo every time as option #1, perhaps your only win-con. And again, only in an unknown group, where such a thing should have social consequences.
People straight up straw-manning his stance is a sad thing on MTGS.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
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No, groups often self-mitigate because they don't want to deal with this stuff. Stating the opposite as a known fact is just purposely disingenuous
Yes, it sucked. Just like it sucked every time. Banning stuff like that should be exactly what the list hits.
Again, 30 also lightly disrupts the ramp into infinity games. And helps people team up to kill established threats.
But that wont stop Combo from being the most efficient.
Thats the thing, I don't see what Sheldon is saying as grumbling about winning with combo. If you are about the same power level, around the same turn I don't see an issue with that per se. Now if you are tutoring for combo pieces and winning around T8, I may ask you to play something else. Another issue is Dramatic Scepter can all happen in one turn, those other items take setup, so some folks see that as not the same power level.
I dont think the difference between 90 and 120 makes this happen. And anything under 30 is going to be to low to me in EDH. YMMV
If people refuse to be a part of the power level the majority wants, is refusing to play with them 'taking your ball and going home'?
Infinite combo is not a pillar of EDH, it was fairly recently the RC started to unban combo pieces. The creators are speaking out about it negatively. The RC has always been in that general vicinity in regards to infinite combo.
Making out like this is some new twist is intellectually dishonest.
I didnt say that, which is part of my issue with implying something not easily deciphered.I said infinite combos are not a pillar of EDH. I think that is backed up by both the creators saying it should not be option one all the time, and some used to actually be banned out of the format.
Trying to smash synergy and infinite combo into the same idea is "willfully misguided", as someone once said.
Combo isn't one of the pillars of EDH. There was a time when strong combo pieces were outright banned. People can make a lot of arguments in favor of combo, but that surely isn't one of them.
Again, the point of the post was about unknown groups (LGS, MagicFest, etc) and how those have deteriorated to such a degree. It has not always been like this. I had the absolute worst game of EDH I have ever played this last weekend at MagicFest Seattle.
And cards obviously are not designed to combo together, they banned it out of Standard recently. Yes many cards within the decades do so, and I honestly get why people play them: Some games need to end.
I think its socially lacking to pub stomp people because you know they are playing '75%' and likely wont be able to stop a combo with counter back-up.
People straight up straw-manning his stance is a sad thing on MTGS.