MTG Salvation

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Quote from DirkGently »

I don't think I can let that one slide. I'd say playing cEDH drastically reduces the number of interactions to worry about because the pool of played cards is so much fewer, as are the number of decks and archetypes. #1. It also drastically reduces the number of important decisions in a game because it's so much shorter. Granted, those decisions are much more likely to be life and death than any of the myriad mostly-irrelevant decisions made in a normal commander game, but I think being able to #2. identify the critical junctures in a normal commander game from among all the unimportant ones - and to make the right choice in those decisions - can be a lot harder than making the right decisions in a fast combo game, because in #3. the fast combo game it's mostly the same kinds of decisions every game. Whereas in the normal commander game, the kinds of decisions can be enormously diverse and require more critical thinking and less rote memorization.

Not that the play skill of most normal commander players is high - it is not. And the skill of cEDH players tends to be higher, partly because you have to be fairly invested and familiar with the game to buy in at that level. But there's way, way more room to perfect your gameplay in a normal game of commander than a cEDH one, at least imo.

Alright, I'll bite. A healthy debate is fun to engage in. I've quoted you and added bold text and numbers around each of the primary points I'd like to debate. To set the ground rules, please know that I approach this topic and you with respect and a genuine desire to broaden your perspective, at the very least. I fully and wholeheartedly support the various ways to play Commander and I happily recognize that I'm a minority (being a cEDH player) - if part of a vocal one, heh. Regardless of the debate and the conclusions we draw, I hope that I will be able to at least respectfully showcase why I prefer to play cEDH over a regular "battlecruiser" Commander game.

I will be referencing both personal examples as well as videos from the excellent LabManiacs.com website. I personally believe that their cEDH content is representative of the way that my playgroup and I play cEDH games (as well as general cEDH games), the relative playskill of my playgroup (and other cEDH players), and a showcasing of the premier cEDH strategies and archetypes available. Their curated video content can be found here and a compendium of their decklists can be found here, as references.

I think it's also important to define a few things as well, since I'll be using them in the context of my arguments.

• When I mention "battlecruiser" decks/Commander games, I mean to say that the propensity and focus on executing an infinite combo is much less pronounced than that of a cEDH deck/Commander game. That doesn't mean to say that battlecruiser Commander decks cannot be optimized nor streamlined to great efficiency, because many are, but it's more representative of a playstyle and philosophy; battlecruiser games are more concerned (generally) about the number of interactions, tempo swings, and emotional well-being of its players. Battlecruiser games are essentially decks and games that are all about maximizing the amount of cards that you can see from your deck within a given game.
• I'll also reference a preface/introductory article that I wrote that's stickied in the cEDH forums. I think this document is important to read since it will help explain the general philosophy of the cEDH niche of Commander players (many cEDH players have read it and generally agreed with its points on Discord, Facebook, and reddit, to substantiate that document as being semi-official).

Alright, time to dig in.

For point #1, I both agree AND disagree with you here. You are correct in the perception that a cEDH game is usually played at a faster pace than a regular battlecruiser game. By necessity, this DOES limit the number of interactions that you experience within a game by virtue of it being shorter, so you are correct in this point.

But I disagree with you because a cEDH game makes a substantially higher number of the "regular" decisions you make substantially more impactful, thus also INCREASING the number of important decisions that you make. For example, in a battlecruiser game, it's reasonable to assume that I can spend the first few turns of a game deploying my ramp effects, accruing card advantage, or building a board presence without substantial cost because it's likely that the other battlecruiser players are employing a similar strategy. I'm not going to lose tempo or face dire consequences of tapping out on T3 to play a Dimir Signet into a Night's Whisper (as a generic example); indeed, making this kind of play in a battlecruiser Commander game is probably safe and will actively help me execute my primary strategy by developing my card advantage AND mana advantage.

However, doing a similar action in a cEDH game could have HUGE repercussions on your chances to win the game; I've seen some decks consistently assemble a game-winning combo on T3 and execute it (in fact, some of my own decks can reliably do this). By doing the same action that I would take in a battlecruiser game, and performing it within a cEDH game, I could lose the game as a consequence. This makes resource management even more crucial during a cEDH game because any actions I take to develop my board state or accrue card advantage has real consequences to it. It heightens the potential risks of making any in-game decision. As an example of this, if you look at the 48 minute mark of this recorded game, the Yidris player chose a correct moment to go for the win because the other players had spent their resources in addressing other issues. The other player's decisions of when to respond with interaction throughout the course of the game(of which there is a great deal of, by the way) allowed the Yidris player that window of opportunity to execute a win successfuly that he wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. The Tasigur player even admits that he chose the wrong moment to pay for a Rhystic Study trigger at the 54:00 mark. This is an example of how important it is to manage resources and discern whether or not a specific action is the correct one; paying for the Study trigger may not have seemed important during the previous slew of interaction, but it cost the Tasigur player the game. And while the actual recording is under an hour, and the volume of interactions therefore in comparison to a battlecruiser game is less, I think it showcases very well how important nearly EVERY decision is within a cEDH game. This kind of example is commonplace during cEDH games, so I feel comfortable saying that my example is representative of nearly every cEDH game that is played.

Point #2. I don't disagree with the first part of your point here at all, actually. I think the beauty of a cEDH game is that it compresses the number of important decisions that a player needs to make into a much more compact time frame. The same type of decisions of tempo generation, card advantage, and board development hold true whether playing a battlecruiser game or a cEDH game. In a battlecruiser game, the frequency of these important decisions is a little more spread out from a time standpoint and usually occur within the later turns of a game, generally from T5-T6 onwards. In a cEDH game, the frequency of these decisions occurs more often and within a faster timeframe, often starting around T2-T3.

I do disagree with you on the second half of it, that "making the right choices... can be a lot harder [than a] fast combo game". As my previous point alludes to, I think the complexity of decisions that any player makes within a cEDH game is actually INCREASED by playing against other cEDH decks. If you're sitting down at a cEDH game, it's likely that you'll be playing against 3-4 disparate and equally powerful combos, all utilizing different cards. These combos are built within the context of the player's specific Commander deck, meaning that the card advantage engines and board development cards that each player utilizes will be fairly varied; and even if they're the same across the table, this only adds to the complexity because you know precisely what kind of play your opponents COULD make, given their mana sources and card count. Because being able to play more cards in a turn cycle is more critical for a cEDH game than a normal battlecruiser game (generally speaking), CMC considerations are paramount when building a cEDH deck. Because each player's cards and their associated effects are able to be deployed at lower CMC's, and therefore at a faster pace than a battlecruiser game, the opportunity cost for doing a certain action is much higher for EVERY action taken. Because the opportunity cost is higher for each decision tree during a cEDH game, this adds depth and complexity to the game right out of the gates and forces a similar number of "critical junctures" that a battlecruiser game would experience at a faster pace.

This is primarily one of the reasons that cEDH players absolutely NEED to be clear about what type of game they're playing with the table; it's totally inappropriate for a cEDH player to pub-stomp a table of unaware battlecruiser decks and players because their deck is cEDH level and the rest of the table's decks are not. This kind of inappropriate disparity in deck construction and/or play-skill is what leads to feel-bads amongst the other players, who had different expectations of what that game was supposed to feel like. While I recognize that there are cEDH players that do actively look to curb-stomp others, the vast majority of our vocal minority respect the social contract of a playgroup and will play and build decks accordingly.

Point #3. I disagree. While the same type of combos that are in a deck are consistently executed as the primary way of how that deck wins the game (Flash Hulk is probably always going to want to Flash Hulk, Gitrog is always going to Dredge Dakmor Salvage, etc.), the decision trees and "critical junctures" that said player employs to get there are VASTLY different per game. If you want to binge watch the LabManiacs' video content, I encourage you to do so, as it demonstrates how variegated and complex cEDH games really are. Often, the phrase "cEDH games always end on T3 and combat damage doesn't matter" is used as a joke/meme phrase within a game because this is RARELY the case. Their most recent episode is a classic example of how this common perception is totally inaccurate.

Some decision points have to be the same (i.e. destroying an opponent's Rest in Peace to utilize your 'yard-based strategy) because they stop your primary win line, but that too adds complexity to the game. How will you remove it? What cards will you spend to do so? Will your opponent be able to protect their RIP? Can/will an OPPONENT protect the opponent's RIP in order to prevent you from executing your combo? These are common questions that come up during a game.