My previous experience (at least with the build in the OP with Notion Thief) is that Jund is actually quite a tough match-up. Day's Undoing without an anti-draw effect gives Jund too much gas, and even Day's Undoing with Narset, Parter of Veils still lets Jund recover too quickly because they often get to keep 1 card from an Undoing. The latter is why I quickly switched to Teferi's Puzzle Box, and preserving that lock actually does finally murder them. Thing is, preserving an anti-draw effect long enough to Puzzle Box them is often tough. Their Bloodbraid Elf has a tendency to have something break through our counter wall. I've found that it's generally worth dropping the first Narset P to 3 loyalty immediately against Jund, even though they run Bolt, because they also have too many ways to kill a 5-loyalty Narset P.
Hello Narset's people, I would like to discuss the new card Echo of Eons, do you think it will replace day's undoing?
What about Teferi's Puzzle Box? it seems very strong with Narsets and Thiefs.
I read mtgsalvation is closing. does anyone know any other good forums? Thank you in advance.
I'm not completely sure Echo of Eons will replace Day's Undoing. On the one hand, it's pretty loot-friendly, and we do have some looting. On the other hand, I suspect all the maindeck and sideboard graveyard hate currently in Modern won't go down completely post-Modern Horizons (too many people experimenting with Life from the Loam decks and Wrenn and Six, UR Phoenix getting 1-4 new cards and not much in the way of hate directed at it, Gx Tron won't get injured enough by Collector Ouphe), the looting doesn't always come, and 6 cmc is in an awkward spot in the Disrupting Shoal curve.
I've tried Teferi's Puzzle Box instead of 2 Day's Undoing, and I love it. It locks people with Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief so much better, and you can generally kill your opponent before they can find instant-speed hate. I haven't really missed the lower number of pitchable cards.
Sadly, I suspect MTG Salvation is the best forum for Modern, and it may not even be close. The sub-Reddits often have extensive discussion for specific decks, though.
In the meantime, has anyone else seen those 2 Mono-Blue Narset Midrange decks in today's MTGO Modern Challenge results? They seem like a natural evolution of this deck, complete with Day's Undoing and pitch spells. I keep thinking that Teferi's Puzzle Box would be great in them, though.
Not if you gain control of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon with it. Ugin SD's pretty much only a Bolt machine against Gx Tron. Gaining control of Oblivion Stone is better, but they can play a lone Karn Liberated into it and force you to crack it, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger both pops and ignores it, and you need to pop O. Stone in response to Karn, the Great Creator being cast. In testing, though, gaining control of Karn GC has often been good enough, even with an artifact-light sideboard.
I found that I cannot consistently cast any pitch spell after one Draw 7 (mainly because the proper pitch spell didn't come). I also tend to lean harder on Notion Thief against creature decks and popping Narset P for CA against stuff like Jund that has no problem killing both.
With this deck, I often want my opponent to lose their hand as soon as possible. This deck has trouble ramping, so Karn GC will almost always delay casting Teferi's Puzzle Box by one turn. I find that this deck has trouble controlling the board, so a one-turn delay may very well end up being crucial.
Karn GC is a pretty powerful card overall, though, and this deck lures attacks away from him with Narset P.
I am currently building two additionnal versions of the narset lock combo: esper Spirit of the Labyrinth prison/miracles, and bant (maybe splash black for thief) turbofog. I will report when both have reached a level worthy of publication. I also think locking the deck in mono blue just for the pitching isn't very rewarding, and Teferi's puzzle box seems to be actually quite insane with Narset/thief: even with an unrefined version of the deck, it kills the opponent very easily.
I still think Teferi's puzzle box is bad, but I haven't tested it at all. Pros: it locks the opponent out completely with just 1 card in addition to Narset or Thief. Cons: it does basically nothing when you don't have Narset/Thief in play. Day's, Lore Broker and Geier Reach/Mikokoro all do at least a little something when you don't have a Narset/Thief, and they all help you draw into Thief where Puzzle box doesn't if you don't have much in hand, being 4 mana and sorcery speed also sucks.
That being said, if it is tested and is found to be a viable replacement to Day's/Thief it could save us some slots, (from 11 down to 4+ however many of the old combo pieces we may want to keep for consistency), and cutting cards out of the combo slots will help our interaction suite a ton; so even if it's a slightly worse card when we aren't comboing it, maybe that's ok because the rest of the deck is more efficient anyways with the saved slots.
On the topic of trying different colors: I am currently attempting to brew an esper list myself, (though not for playing Spirit of the Labyrinth). I'm interested in getting to play Supreme Verdict, Dovin's Veto, Path to Exile and my personal favorite, Teferi, Time Raveler. Other than path, they are all still blue cards so they don't interfere with our pitch plan, (a huge plus for Verdict over Damnation, where Engulf just doesn't feel like enough a lot of the time), and Teferi, Time Raveler is a) another answer to both creatures, which the deck struggles with, and b) can also hit resolved artifacts and enchantments which helps a ton because we don't have a lot that can interact with those if they hit the board, being able to hit Aethervial is great, and also making Void Snare instant speed is sweet. Being able to play Day's at instant speed is great too. Teferi's passive also hurts some opponent's naturally and also makes our lock with Thief instant-proof. The awkward part is the mana base. We need lots of blue sources and still have to splash black for Thief, so playing lots of basics is harder when we need 3 colors, (notably WW to cast verdict), but not playing as many basics hurts our borderposts a ton. So do we cut border posts or just play a few basics and then a ton of fetches to make sure we can always find a basic if we need to play a post. Let me know what you guys think here.
I disagree on the "do nothing" part of puzzle box: it's an incredibly effective digging engine that will make you go through so many cards you'd be highly unlucky not to hit Narset or Thief or any card you're actually looking for while already disturbing your opponent's gameplan. I wasn't on the box team, but trying it out just for a few games sold it to me!
Puzzle box only filters cards if you already had cards in hand when you cast it whereas Day's can be topdecked and still give you 7 cards no matter what. Enough people are saying it has tested well though so I may give it a shot.
If you go Hellbent casting Teferi's Puzzle Box, just keep stuff in hand that you want to filter away afterwards.
I ditched 2 Day's Undoing for 2 Puzzle Boxes. I don't want to switch back. I didn't pitch Day's Undoing that often, I generally found that drawing 6-7 cards with an emergency Day's Undoing was not worth it when my opponent filtered their hand, drew 3-4, and killed my stuff after they drew cards, and Day's Undoing with a draw denier only knocks their hand down (often to 1 card with Narset P) and still gives them the chance to come back. Puzzle Box with a draw denier often completely shuts them out of casting spells (long enough for you to kill them, anyway), and at least emergency Puzzle Box doesn't let your opponent increase their hand size while still letting you filter cards. Even better, Puzzle Box doesn't let them discard flashback cards or Arclight Phoenix, unlike forcing them to loot after getting them Hellbent. I've been winning more often with Puzzle Box than with Day's Undoing.
I’ve got some cards that I was wondering what people thought of as well: Consign // Oblivion, Cardful Considerations and Chalice of the Void. The first card allows us to bounce a card if it’s a particular annoyance, and then potentiallly cast Oblivion to get the opponent to a low enough hand size without us even needing to cast Day’s Undoing, and lock from there.
Careful Considerations could be a smaller version of Day’s Undoing, especially since it’s an Instant. Also playing as a dig spell for ourselves, I reckon this could be a very good spell. I haven’t tried it out yet, but I have high hopes for it. Chalice of the Void is the one I’m a bit more sceptical on. While it is Colourless and does prevent some of our 1-cmc spells, it does outright prevent our opponents stuff as well.
I have a proposition that might be met with outrage, but I’ll try it anyways: completely cut Disrupting Shoal and go all in on Commandeer and Snapback. This might be a crap idea, but I’m thinking that the way Shoal appears to be skewering our CMC might be a bit too much damage to us. Snapback allows us to answer creature threats temporarily and Commandeer does its usual thing lol. I’ll test out these cards and ideas, and let you guys know how it goes : )
I do not support ditching Disrupting Shoal, especially for Snapback. Shoal (and Commandeer) permanently deal with cards, while Snapback does not (unless you knock their hand size down immediately afterward). Additionally, I've cast Snapback for its full mana cost at least half the time. I'd rather ditch Snapback completely--it doesn't save me well enough.
Careful Consideration looks spicy, though. For me, it's a serious contender for ditching a Day's Undoing with. It either draws 2 cards at sorcery speed when you don't have a draw denier, or it makes them discard 3 cards at instant speed with a draw denier (and you get to draw 4 with Notion Thief instead of Narset P!).
I wonder why this UB deck doesn't play any Thoughtseize-effects? It helps a lot with stripping cards off of the opponent which speeds up the Lorebroker lock
Because we need our spells to be blue, and as far as I know the only blue card that might be worth playing is Thought Erasure, and even then it seems like it might be a bit of a stretch.
There's probably some happy medium of nonblue cards this deck can support, as Disrupting Shoal versions of Modern RUG Delver play mono-red (Bolt) and mono-green (Goyf/Hooting Mandrills) cards. Granted, Commandeer probably ups the blue count further, but in testing, I've cast Snapback for 2 mana at least half the time, so I ditched one for Tyrant's Scorn.
I'm reading some tournament reports on MTGS that mention this deck or something close to it. I'm really wondering what those lists are like, as I haven't seen this deck get any tournament Top 8s or MTGO finishes.
Tried the deck in the OP against Jund a bunch of times in pre-board games. Narset Pitch Blue lost most of them because Jund is quite good at shredding hands, it doesn't tend to draw additional cards for its CA (see their Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Liliana, the Last Hope), it often has a fairly quick clock that can be hard to Engulf the Shore profitably (e.g. Goyf, Scavenging Ooze, BBE), and it dumps its hand fairly quickly and can take advantage of emergency naked Day's Undoing. What can this deck do to combat it and other BGx Midrange decks? How much does post-board removal help?
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I'm not completely sure Echo of Eons will replace Day's Undoing. On the one hand, it's pretty loot-friendly, and we do have some looting. On the other hand, I suspect all the maindeck and sideboard graveyard hate currently in Modern won't go down completely post-Modern Horizons (too many people experimenting with Life from the Loam decks and Wrenn and Six, UR Phoenix getting 1-4 new cards and not much in the way of hate directed at it, Gx Tron won't get injured enough by Collector Ouphe), the looting doesn't always come, and 6 cmc is in an awkward spot in the Disrupting Shoal curve.
I've tried Teferi's Puzzle Box instead of 2 Day's Undoing, and I love it. It locks people with Narset, Parter of Veils/Notion Thief so much better, and you can generally kill your opponent before they can find instant-speed hate. I haven't really missed the lower number of pitchable cards.
Sadly, I suspect MTG Salvation is the best forum for Modern, and it may not even be close. The sub-Reddits often have extensive discussion for specific decks, though.
In the meantime, has anyone else seen those 2 Mono-Blue Narset Midrange decks in today's MTGO Modern Challenge results? They seem like a natural evolution of this deck, complete with Day's Undoing and pitch spells. I keep thinking that Teferi's Puzzle Box would be great in them, though.
Not if you gain control of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon with it. Ugin SD's pretty much only a Bolt machine against Gx Tron. Gaining control of Oblivion Stone is better, but they can play a lone Karn Liberated into it and force you to crack it, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger both pops and ignores it, and you need to pop O. Stone in response to Karn, the Great Creator being cast. In testing, though, gaining control of Karn GC has often been good enough, even with an artifact-light sideboard.
On Snapback's ability to protect Narset P:
I found that I cannot consistently cast any pitch spell after one Draw 7 (mainly because the proper pitch spell didn't come). I also tend to lean harder on Notion Thief against creature decks and popping Narset P for CA against stuff like Jund that has no problem killing both.
With this deck, I often want my opponent to lose their hand as soon as possible. This deck has trouble ramping, so Karn GC will almost always delay casting Teferi's Puzzle Box by one turn. I find that this deck has trouble controlling the board, so a one-turn delay may very well end up being crucial.
Karn GC is a pretty powerful card overall, though, and this deck lures attacks away from him with Narset P.
If you go Hellbent casting Teferi's Puzzle Box, just keep stuff in hand that you want to filter away afterwards.
I ditched 2 Day's Undoing for 2 Puzzle Boxes. I don't want to switch back. I didn't pitch Day's Undoing that often, I generally found that drawing 6-7 cards with an emergency Day's Undoing was not worth it when my opponent filtered their hand, drew 3-4, and killed my stuff after they drew cards, and Day's Undoing with a draw denier only knocks their hand down (often to 1 card with Narset P) and still gives them the chance to come back. Puzzle Box with a draw denier often completely shuts them out of casting spells (long enough for you to kill them, anyway), and at least emergency Puzzle Box doesn't let your opponent increase their hand size while still letting you filter cards. Even better, Puzzle Box doesn't let them discard flashback cards or Arclight Phoenix, unlike forcing them to loot after getting them Hellbent. I've been winning more often with Puzzle Box than with Day's Undoing.
I do not support ditching Disrupting Shoal, especially for Snapback. Shoal (and Commandeer) permanently deal with cards, while Snapback does not (unless you knock their hand size down immediately afterward). Additionally, I've cast Snapback for its full mana cost at least half the time. I'd rather ditch Snapback completely--it doesn't save me well enough.
Careful Consideration looks spicy, though. For me, it's a serious contender for ditching a Day's Undoing with. It either draws 2 cards at sorcery speed when you don't have a draw denier, or it makes them discard 3 cards at instant speed with a draw denier (and you get to draw 4 with Notion Thief instead of Narset P!).
There's probably some happy medium of nonblue cards this deck can support, as Disrupting Shoal versions of Modern RUG Delver play mono-red (Bolt) and mono-green (Goyf/Hooting Mandrills) cards. Granted, Commandeer probably ups the blue count further, but in testing, I've cast Snapback for 2 mana at least half the time, so I ditched one for Tyrant's Scorn.
I'm reading some tournament reports on MTGS that mention this deck or something close to it. I'm really wondering what those lists are like, as I haven't seen this deck get any tournament Top 8s or MTGO finishes.