At this point, this thread is less about the update in general and more about wishes, so I'm locking this. Please continue the discussion in the Wish thread.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
You'd think if it was such a defining rule of the format, the word "sideboard" would appear at least once on the Offical Commander Rules website. I certainly couldn't find it. Eh, I'm sure it's not important.
Yep, you got me because I opted to shorthand an obviously understood term.
Let's take it a step further and get literal. Oracle ruling states that in a sanctioned game it pulls from your sideboard, and in a non sanctioned one is just pulls from outside the game (i.e. any card you have with you). I'm going to ignore the pedantic arguments of color identity, card legality, and singleton rule because we are smart people and know that this would be taken into account. But now the RC has to define a sideboard because otherwise it would be left.for every venue to define one for that particular sanctioned event. And then come the debates over whether an event is sanctioned or which sideboard to use. How many of the ~30 players at my league realize that the games are sanctioned and would show up with a wish binder?
Edh is a non sanctioned format by default, so playing the cards as written means being able to pull Amy card. That comes with it's own set of baggage so the RC decided to take a stand and apply a format specific rule, which some players don't agree with. It is what it is, but I would be willing to bet a very small percentage actually played with wishes so it's not like anything was lost, except for the potential to tutor for cards that aren't good enough to main deck. And I wasn't being sarcastic earlier. You already accept a number of format specific rules which don't exist in any.other format, so why yet up in arms over this specific one?
I certainly wouldn't stop someone from rolling a planar die in an edh game. I'd even hand them one since I carry them on me. But if we weren't playing plane chase then there would be no effect. Just as I wouldn't stop someone from casting burning wish and then failing to find from their nonexistent side board.
The simple fact is that the no sideboard rule is a defining format rule, just as other formats have defined sideboards. This clarification is just an attempt to lay to rest the debates that arose due to wishy washy wording of the past.
The bigger of a wishboard/lamp, the more its going to just stagnate. After all, keeping it smaller keeps them from being the same. Having only 3 actual slots to use means you need to pick your cards more wisely instead of just shoving mostly goodstuff cards to fill in the slots. Also this is based on Sheldon's way of thinking, wanting to see less of the same for meta decks, but in this case with wishboards/lamps. After all the whole format is based on building off of restrictions unless you disagree with that.
Well at most you have effectively increased your deck to 102 cards, since the wishes take up slots that could be used by, you know, those three cards in your wish board.
And not to be too pedantic, but if I were in favor of this change (I'm not) then it would create an annoyance that I would have to buy two packs of sleeves now because of a few extra cards.
Or, because it continues to be a poor solution. It's the same as if the RC added a hypothetical "Rule 14: Relentless Rats-type effects do not work in Commander." It's an example of the RC going out of their way to remove functionality from cards without actually banning the cards in question because... reasons? It is absurdly close to card-specific errata, and there is simply no reason for it. Either Wishes are fine and should be legal to work how they work, or they're not and they should be banned. There's no middle ground here.
Creating format-specific rules is a poor solution? Well, there goes the 100 card rule, the color identity rule, the general damage rule, the command zone replacement effect, the singleton rule....
A question for everyone complaining about Rule 13 re: Wishes, etc.:
Nothing functionally changed in the rule with this update, so why is everyone getting all argumentative about it now?
Probably because they want wishes to work and this update showed that you guys discussed them and didnt reach a conclusion they liked.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Yep, you got me because I opted to shorthand an obviously understood term.
Let's take it a step further and get literal. Oracle ruling states that in a sanctioned game it pulls from your sideboard, and in a non sanctioned one is just pulls from outside the game (i.e. any card you have with you). I'm going to ignore the pedantic arguments of color identity, card legality, and singleton rule because we are smart people and know that this would be taken into account. But now the RC has to define a sideboard because otherwise it would be left.for every venue to define one for that particular sanctioned event. And then come the debates over whether an event is sanctioned or which sideboard to use. How many of the ~30 players at my league realize that the games are sanctioned and would show up with a wish binder?
Edh is a non sanctioned format by default, so playing the cards as written means being able to pull Amy card. That comes with it's own set of baggage so the RC decided to take a stand and apply a format specific rule, which some players don't agree with. It is what it is, but I would be willing to bet a very small percentage actually played with wishes so it's not like anything was lost, except for the potential to tutor for cards that aren't good enough to main deck. And I wasn't being sarcastic earlier. You already accept a number of format specific rules which don't exist in any.other format, so why yet up in arms over this specific one?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The simple fact is that the no sideboard rule is a defining format rule, just as other formats have defined sideboards. This clarification is just an attempt to lay to rest the debates that arose due to wishy washy wording of the past.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Well at most you have effectively increased your deck to 102 cards, since the wishes take up slots that could be used by, you know, those three cards in your wish board.
And not to be too pedantic, but if I were in favor of this change (I'm not) then it would create an annoyance that I would have to buy two packs of sleeves now because of a few extra cards.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Three seems like an awfully small number. At that point why bother?
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Creating format-specific rules is a poor solution? Well, there goes the 100 card rule, the color identity rule, the general damage rule, the command zone replacement effect, the singleton rule....
Whee! Hyperbole is fun.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Probably because they want wishes to work and this update showed that you guys discussed them and didnt reach a conclusion they liked.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg