You just went and glossed over what I also said at the end my post:
Quote from Thief »
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody is interested in whether you're personally invested in her or not, we're discussing her Sueness. And you jumping to that just seems defensive to me. We're supposed to discuss the sueness and you didn't even do the litmus test right. I assume btw that you're using this test, in which case Onering has the better grasp of the situation. It's also telling that you didn't engage with anything he said and instead posted an unrelated comic.
If you care about the OSP video, you should at least have noticed its core point. The common link between Mary Sue archetypes is that the world revolves around them, in service to whatever their traits are, for the reader to live out a power fantasy. Magic: the Gathering does not revolve around Liliana this way, she has just been a prominent main character recently, which is standard faire in writing. Her capabilities and edgy traits are also near mundane in the Magic universe, meaning she's not the centre of the brand at all.
Don't conflate Mary Sues with main characters. Sueness has to do with a whole world being used to serve a character fantasy. Main characters are just the writing's primary object of interest. The two things are different.
You mean that Amonketh, Dominaria and WAR didn't revolve around Liliana?
Welp, considering now there's like three people in the Multiverse who DON'T hate Liliana, I think the Mary Sue argument can be put to bed.
Oh, no! I wonder what the consequences of that are going to be? /s
Liliana will say that she is sorry, she will do something to make those characters believe her and we will all move on.
I would love to read this fanfiction that you keep mentioning, the one where Liliana is always haunted by the death of her brother and wears a mask to protect her true self. The one where because of the death of her brother she can't open to others. The one that hints that she actually might give a ***** about anybody but herself.
I'd really love someone to link it to me because, in the actual mtg story, that doesn't exist. Liliana's brother and her being haunted by her death is literally mentioned in a handful of times in Dominaria story, had 0 impact on any of her choices before Dominaria, and is never mentioned again.
Produce thine loiny-secrets onto the table for a measure, Nick and Lil!
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.
Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
Regarding other Gatewatch members, unlike Liliana they all grow as characters.
Jace went from ''I know everything better than you, ancient eldrazi expert elder dragon planeswalker, so stfu'' to a character redesign during Ixalan. He actually grew as a character during the story of that block.
Chandra might be as dumb as a brick wall but she has also experience growth at some measure during Kaladesh and Dominaria.
Nissa went from a racist elf to a weird quasi gay or something, whatever wotc was trying to do with her during Kaladesh (I honestly think that even they don't know what they were doing with Nissa), character to the first member of the Gatewatch that left the group after Amonketh and presumably went her own way (until WAR).
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
My point is, at least they've all had character arcs, had faced their own struggles and grew as characters. They also had to learn to rely on each other to solve their problems. Liliana just does everything on her own, with no struggle whatsoever, hasn't grown as a character up until this point (we still need to wait for the novel) and hasn't learned a damn thing. She was and she had remained flawless.
Set aside the guided narrative a look at her character objectively.
- Liliana has no flaws from her alignment perspective. I've said this about alignment because someone might bring up ''well, she can't be trusted so that's a flaw'' or ''well, she uses others so that's a flaw''. Liliana is pure black. She is as close to an evil gatewatch member as we're ever going to get. From her alignment perspective all of those would be arguments are nulled. She behaves exactly as she is supposed to. All of her plans are executed flawlessly, she has never been wrong except for one thing made to progress the narrative (the Bolas deal) and create virtual stakes and she overcame all of her ''struggles'' with the greatest of ease.
- Chain Veil is a deus ex machina. This now obviously most powerful item to ever to ever exist in the multiverse period has been an easy fix to all of her problems ever since the character's inception. Garruk attacks you on an unknown plane? Chain veil. Need an army to fight off Emrakul's spawn? Chain Veil. A demon lord to who you own your soul is trying to murder you? Chain Veil. Dead brother came back to life as a lich? Chain veil. Spoiler spoiler blabla Chain Veil bla (figure out the context on your own). Liliana never encounters any struggle because the moment a problem arises she instantly solves it with the Chain Veil which has as much of a drawback as killing the Eldrazi titans, literally none and I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn what the supposed ''drawback'' is.
- Liliana gets away with everything. Let's not lie to ourselves, Liliana is a *****ty person. Everyone around her knows that she is a *****ty person who shouldn't be trusted yet still, Liliana gets away with everything with the greatest of ease. Manipulate friends for your own good? It is ok, we all forgive you because Tezzeret is here on Kaladesh so all turned out fine! Run away from Bolas in the time of need? It is ok, we've all risked out lives there while you just ran away but we're all fine now, good job! Abuse the Chain Veil to no end? Lol wut r consequences? Enter a deal with Bolas that is supposed to kill her? Wait for the novel to come out but it is obvious (not spoilers, just common sense).
In summary: Liliana faces no struggles, overcomes all of her problems with the greatest of ease, never suffers any real consequences and everything pretty much always goes her way except for that one time that the narrative had demanded it.
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You mean that Amonketh, Dominaria and WAR didn't revolve around Liliana?
Oh, no! I wonder what the consequences of that are going to be? /s
Liliana will say that she is sorry, she will do something to make those characters believe her and we will all move on.
I'd really love someone to link it to me because, in the actual mtg story, that doesn't exist. Liliana's brother and her being haunted by her death is literally mentioned in a handful of times in Dominaria story, had 0 impact on any of her choices before Dominaria, and is never mentioned again.
Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
Jace went from ''I know everything better than you, ancient eldrazi expert elder dragon planeswalker, so stfu'' to a character redesign during Ixalan. He actually grew as a character during the story of that block.
Chandra might be as dumb as a brick wall but she has also experience growth at some measure during Kaladesh and Dominaria.
Nissa went from a racist elf to a weird quasi gay or something, whatever wotc was trying to do with her during Kaladesh (I honestly think that even they don't know what they were doing with Nissa), character to the first member of the Gatewatch that left the group after Amonketh and presumably went her own way (until WAR).
Gideon is as flawless as Liliana is, I'll be honest with you and with myself.
My point is, at least they've all had character arcs, had faced their own struggles and grew as characters. They also had to learn to rely on each other to solve their problems. Liliana just does everything on her own, with no struggle whatsoever, hasn't grown as a character up until this point (we still need to wait for the novel) and hasn't learned a damn thing. She was and she had remained flawless.
Set aside the guided narrative a look at her character objectively.
- Liliana has no flaws from her alignment perspective. I've said this about alignment because someone might bring up ''well, she can't be trusted so that's a flaw'' or ''well, she uses others so that's a flaw''. Liliana is pure black. She is as close to an evil gatewatch member as we're ever going to get. From her alignment perspective all of those would be arguments are nulled. She behaves exactly as she is supposed to. All of her plans are executed flawlessly, she has never been wrong except for one thing made to progress the narrative (the Bolas deal) and create virtual stakes and she overcame all of her ''struggles'' with the greatest of ease.
- Chain Veil is a deus ex machina. This now obviously most powerful item to ever to ever exist in the multiverse period has been an easy fix to all of her problems ever since the character's inception. Garruk attacks you on an unknown plane? Chain veil. Need an army to fight off Emrakul's spawn? Chain Veil. A demon lord to who you own your soul is trying to murder you? Chain Veil. Dead brother came back to life as a lich? Chain veil. Spoiler spoiler blabla Chain Veil bla (figure out the context on your own). Liliana never encounters any struggle because the moment a problem arises she instantly solves it with the Chain Veil which has as much of a drawback as killing the Eldrazi titans, literally none and I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn what the supposed ''drawback'' is.
- Liliana gets away with everything. Let's not lie to ourselves, Liliana is a *****ty person. Everyone around her knows that she is a *****ty person who shouldn't be trusted yet still, Liliana gets away with everything with the greatest of ease. Manipulate friends for your own good? It is ok, we all forgive you because Tezzeret is here on Kaladesh so all turned out fine! Run away from Bolas in the time of need? It is ok, we've all risked out lives there while you just ran away but we're all fine now, good job! Abuse the Chain Veil to no end? Lol wut r consequences? Enter a deal with Bolas that is supposed to kill her? Wait for the novel to come out but it is obvious (not spoilers, just common sense).
In summary: Liliana faces no struggles, overcomes all of her problems with the greatest of ease, never suffers any real consequences and everything pretty much always goes her way except for that one time that the narrative had demanded it.