Nicol Bolas is not a Marry Sue character. He has had many flaws over the years of publication and has struggled and suffered because of them on numerous occasions.
-Like how Umezawa killed him when he was the BBEG? He had to lose. He's the BBEG. His only flaw is the BBEG arrogance, which he has due to his character role. A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
-Of the official 5, the only other Gatewatch member whose spark origin holds a candle to Liliana's is Gideon. "Oh )@*# all my friends died because of me, I have to become an invincible planeswalker to never lose a close friend again (until Amonkhet, but we aren't talking about Gideon here). My point is "my bro died" isn't as intense as Gideon's and had already been done with Urza.
Urza...the guy who worked so hard to get his brother back from the Phyrexians that he became a man obsessed and when it came right down to it, didn't rescue his brother from the Phyrexians because he had lost sight of his original goal. Not saying saving Dominaria was not important, but had he not been spurned on to rescue his brother, he would have never found out about the Invasion plans. Invasion is more interesting than losing a brother, but the root is still there. Even after Tempest block where we found out about Planar overlay, Urza block, which told us the start of why Phyrexians were coming, and Nemesis which told us it was nearly upon us. People were really excited for Invasion block, because of the invasion. Not because Urza would probably find out the fate of his brother after all these years.
Liliana made a deal with four demons. What would happen after she took out all of these demons was obvious, she was going to get her brother back...and that is what Belzenlok knew. That's why he made it so that Jossu Vess had to die before he could. He didn't think Liliana would lose sight of her goals... but she did. Cards sold not because of the brother, but because people wanted to find out about these powerful demons. Storywise, it was always about getting her brother back, until she failed herself. If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
-Lol please reread my post starting with "Of course she is ready to die on that hill." and all the way to the bottom. Never said Liliana was looking out for anyone but herself and her brother, and since she (*@#%ed up the latter one, all that is left is to take Bolas out for her on vengeance. Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
-Yeah...I agree with you completely. The shadows of her past (seeing her self as that little girl who was trying so hard to save her brother from the fate that would utterly snuff both of them out [Nicol Bolas for both the trailer kids and the Vesses]) would throw her life away before having to be reminded yet another time of her original vow (no, not to the Gatewatch, @)*% altruism) to get her brother back.
Produce thine loiny-secrets onto the table for a measure, Nick and Lil!
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.
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-Like how Umezawa killed him when he was the BBEG? He had to lose. He's the BBEG. His only flaw is the BBEG arrogance, which he has due to his character role.
A boohoo, Liliana killed her brother in that one story that was written before BFZ and referenced three times in the entire Gatewatch saga, first three chapters of Dominaria,and never again. You argument about her suffering due to killing her brother would hold more water if she had ever referenced it, if that was ever mentioned, in the entire Gatewatch story except for 3 times in a set previous to this one.
-Of the official 5, the only other Gatewatch member whose spark origin holds a candle to Liliana's is Gideon. "Oh )@*# all my friends died because of me, I have to become an invincible planeswalker to never lose a close friend again (until Amonkhet, but we aren't talking about Gideon here). My point is "my bro died" isn't as intense as Gideon's and had already been done with Urza.
Urza...the guy who worked so hard to get his brother back from the Phyrexians that he became a man obsessed and when it came right down to it, didn't rescue his brother from the Phyrexians because he had lost sight of his original goal. Not saying saving Dominaria was not important, but had he not been spurned on to rescue his brother, he would have never found out about the Invasion plans. Invasion is more interesting than losing a brother, but the root is still there. Even after Tempest block where we found out about Planar overlay, Urza block, which told us the start of why Phyrexians were coming, and Nemesis which told us it was nearly upon us. People were really excited for Invasion block, because of the invasion. Not because Urza would probably find out the fate of his brother after all these years.
Liliana made a deal with four demons. What would happen after she took out all of these demons was obvious, she was going to get her brother back...and that is what Belzenlok knew. That's why he made it so that Jossu Vess had to die before he could. He didn't think Liliana would lose sight of her goals... but she did. Cards sold not because of the brother, but because people wanted to find out about these powerful demons. Storywise, it was always about getting her brother back, until she failed herself.
If there is a reason for Liliana to take out Bolas then it is not altruism. It is her again saving her own skin. Everything that she does is out of selfish reasons and for her own benefit. Liliana doesn't care about anybody else but her.
-Lol please reread my post starting with "Of course she is ready to die on that hill." and all the way to the bottom. Never said Liliana was looking out for anyone but herself and her brother, and since she (*@#%ed up the latter one, all that is left is to take Bolas out for her on vengeance.
Just look at the trailer. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past (kids getting crushed)? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
-Yeah...I agree with you completely. The shadows of her past (seeing her self as that little girl who was trying so hard to save her brother from the fate that would utterly snuff both of them out [Nicol Bolas for both the trailer kids and the Vesses]) would throw her life away before having to be reminded yet another time of her original vow (no, not to the Gatewatch, @)*% altruism) to get her brother back.
Is not Nicol Bolas a bigger Mary Sue than Liliana? Is that not the most simple gratifying thing though, striking down a bigger Mary Sue with a smaller one?
Oh my God, I finally understand the ending of Final Fantasy X!!!
Antagonist is SO strong? Antagonist is unstoppable! Even when we plan and plan to our best, the antagonist's plans and power overwhelm said plans!
Which could be said for regimes, and those ruling populaces in real life.
Now I'm depressed.
Thanks for posting your rant! I'm depressed because of it now!
My counterpoint:
First off leaving out the atrocities that Liliana has done from the Killing Wave to messing up Garruk and the fact that she is unable to open up and be vulnerable enough to have an actual relationship with anyone due to reasons made obvious below.
Anyone remember Magic Origins? Young Lily is desperately trying to heal her dying brother, whom she loves dearly (no not like that, you pervs) and naively takes a potion from a stranger a la disguised Evil Queen and zombifies her brother into a killing machine?
Did you ever wonder what all that power was for in the first place? Why she set off to be the best that she could be?
So that she wouldn't have to ever watch her brother die again or anything close to that.
Queue the rekilling of the undead Jossu Vess in Dominaria to get rid of her final demon.
Of course she is ready to die on that hill. She is as strong as she ever wanted to be, but at the cost of the whole reason she set off to be this strong.
She literally has nothing to live for and no purpose now that she has @$)#(%*ed herself over.
Well, only one reason to live. Nicol Bolas was the person who gave her the potion held the contract with the demons. If she can take him out, she can die peacefully.
You are right, she doesn't seem to really care about Jace, nor the rest of the gatewatch or anything else. But her reason for power turning into "I have to stop anyone from ever going to the lengths that Nicol Bolas did to me in order to gain ultimate power" is too altruistic for her.
Because at the end of the day, she's a teenaged girl trapped in the room with the corpse of her brother she killed twice.
Mary Sue's aren't trapped in those rooms.