I don’t understand what you mean by “good for the table.” When is any kind of board wipe symmetrically good for every in the game?
Usually good for the table means recovering from a lopsided situation where one player is far ahead. Generally symmetrically good for everyone except the person who was ahead.
This
If i have 50-100 tokens that are gonna wipe out almost everyone the next turn and you wrath, you did something good for the table. Even if the other players lost some creatures, veryone is still in the game, the disaster was averted and the match can continue.
It wasn't a situation that could be handled in another way, even with the cooperation of all the other players.
And it's not like wraths are sacred too. If used "at random" they can make extremely long and boring.
One of my most terrible game was with a jund deck full of wraths. The guy piloting it was like "you have one more creature than me! wrath!" and made the game last forever.
So yeah the "reset button" cards should be using accordingly when the table need it. And MLD is the most tricky and the most "restting" of all the reset buttons. If you use reset button just to put yourself at advantage or, even worse, at random, expect other players to act accordingly. That means targeting you (at best) or not liking to play with you (at worst).
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If you're going to have a huge problem with MLD, then why not counter the MLD? I agree with you about MLD not being the answer vs Ramp. But you can't make arguments like that.
Hey, i wasted one of my counterspell for your MLD, now i have only one for the dangerous ramp player! Well the alternative was stopping playing for 2-3 turns, so i guess i'll take it!
... so yeah, another situation were MLD just made things worse
As for you "never seeing the good outweigh the bad," I wrote an instance that happened to me yesterday where it killed 14 creatures and made my opponents' commanders uncastable for several turns while leaving mine on the battlefield with no blockers in the post you quoted. Trust me, it was good.
I meant the good for the whole table, not jut for yourself. Of course MLD is good for yourself. The problem is that it's not going to be good for the table in almost any situation, so the table is right to discourage it or KOS.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I think the problem you are having is that you think the argument is binary. Either MLD is good or it is bad. My stance is that it can be bad and also it can be good. It’s a spectrum. It is up to the player to assess situations and deploy it or hold it.
I have yet to see a situation where MLD good sides outweight its bad sides.
I think the problem you are having is that you think only about your perspective and not about other players also. "Yeah i stopped the ramp player with my armageddon, he was going to win""But i had two counterspells in my hand, i could have stopped him too, no i have to sit down for several turns doing nothing".
Using a wildfire just to kill a ramunap or a mul daya for example will get you o much hate from the table... and for the right reason. The ramp player will still have more land and the others won't be able to do anything.
I agree it's a great a tool, in fact you were able to keep coffers/urborg and become the ramp player yourself. So it wasn't actually a move made for greater justice or to make everything fair, it was just to make you win. Don't complain if other people want to stop you from winning, so they want to stop wildfire.
All the situations you are pointing out feels a lot like magical christmas land. Yeah a player was able to ramp until 9 just with cultivate and rampant growth variants (while the other players have what? 6 lands? 5 lands? 4 lands?), cast tooth and nail, assemble a combo and win without any other player having counterspell or removals?
Many safepoint where you can stop the player without needing MLD and restarting the game.
The only convincing argument you made is about Omnath and similar decks. MLD can really be the best strategy against them.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Buffsam makes a good point. Can we focus less on the social aspect of playing MLD and get back to the original intent of the thread, please?
Everytime someone tries the pro MLD players still talk about the social aspect.
I have yet to hear:
- why MLD is better than single-target land destruction against lands like cradle/coffers
- how can MLD help against other forms of ramp. Mana crypt + Mana vault surely is a lot worse than farseek + cultivate
- how can limited MLD (like wildfire) stop the ramp player
- why harming the other players is better than all together ganging on the ramp player
- why you can't use removal or theft effects against the ramp player.
i'd really like to hear the answers, but i bet the only thing i will get is "you are too entitled because you think land are sacred, they are resources like everything else" or something like that.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper.
Hey man, nice 8-drop you played on turn 5! Mind if i copy it and make it better?
Whaaat? You wanna play another? Thank you for the gift
Hey there, your commander too? You are too kind!
And meanwhile, all other players still have lands so they can actually fight the ramp player with removals too? Man, that sounds almost like magic
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I don't appreciate being called a liar out of the blue.
I don't see where i called you liar.
You said that MLD can in some narrow cases help against ramp but it's mostly used to put yourself at advantage or secure yourself the victory. That's the truth.
If someone says that they are putting MLD just because ramp is unfair, they don't gain any adavantage from MLD but just want to make everything balanced and fair, they are liars. And i don't want to hear how i shouldn't attack them because the armageddon in their deck is there to help me too.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Yeah it is a thorny topic because I don't disagree with anything you are saying but also I am not going to hold anything against the player in the corner who has that in their deck and it has a chance to completely change the game in their favor.
Quite different saying you play something because you want or you say you play something because it's a good and righteous way to fight an oppressive strategy.
I can bear the land destruction even if i'd rather visit my dentist; i can't bear someone's lies because he want to feel morally superior
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I generally agree that MLD is not the best case scenario for controlling players it is effective in flattening land accumulation.
Oh well finally.
MLD isn't used to combat ramp. It's used t support artifact ramp or commanders that don't require many lands.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Land Destruction is still being printed, it isn't as good as it has been printed in the past but I think generally you can only say that is not true of Creatures these days with a straight face.
You ignored all my other points just to make this poor argument?
Tell me with a straight which playable land destruction effect they printed after... i don't know... return to ravnica?
Plenty of powerful spells printed during this period (cyclonic rift, toxic deluge), land destruction got the shaft.
They don't want to print that ***** anymore because no one want to play that ***** anymore. Except the jerk that use it to win uncontested of course. damping sphere, blood sun, alpine moon. These are the kind of land destruction that they are pushing now
And they aren't popular in edh because they are FAIR
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Yes but that is coming from a position that the ability to destroy those things have not been printed on cards throughout magics history beginning at the very beginning.
Land destruction isn't a new feature or a patch to this game it is this game as much as anything else is.
Cards can be mistakes you know. Otherwise yeah i'd like to start a petition for green lightning bolt since hornet sting exists.
Yeah land destruction isn't a new feature, it's actually the opposite, recently they are avoiding it as much as possible.
Maybe they understood too that land destruction is just miserable and the best way to combat ramp are effects like damping sphere?
But the problem is exactly that: damping sphere makes thing fair. MLD can easily be exploited to give you a big advantage while everyone else feel miserable
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
You don't have to devote 30-40% of your deck to artifact/elves and you don't have to play an artifact/elf every turn in order to make significant plays.
Comparing land drops to other resources is just... silly.
It's like if they put an unit able to destroy crystals and vespene gas in starcraft. You can destroy workers, why not destroy resources also?
Because those basic resources are required to enjoy the game.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I have Wildfire tucked under a Spinerock Knoll. Xantcha is out, and I have Coffers/Urborg and 9 lands, while the ramp player has out 12 lands. Both other players have 8.
Sounds like you have way more mana than the """ramp player""" and, surprise, wildfire helped you the most!
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I don't understand how wildfire can punish ramp
The player with 11 lands still has 7 lands and can still cast fatties
The player with 7 lands still has 3 lands and can cast cultivate
The player with 4 lands now has nothing
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
And every war must have its civil victims right? Seems like a fun mentality to have in a game.
Meanwhile you can destroy that problematic Coffer with beast within, chaos warp, strip mine, song of the dryads, imprisoned in the moon and vindicate.
But hey if you need an excuse to play MLD and feel morally right just do it.
That player cast rampant growth! Surely my armageddon will solve everything!
Meanwhile the combo player is laughing with his sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
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This
If i have 50-100 tokens that are gonna wipe out almost everyone the next turn and you wrath, you did something good for the table. Even if the other players lost some creatures, veryone is still in the game, the disaster was averted and the match can continue.
It wasn't a situation that could be handled in another way, even with the cooperation of all the other players.
And it's not like wraths are sacred too. If used "at random" they can make extremely long and boring.
One of my most terrible game was with a jund deck full of wraths. The guy piloting it was like "you have one more creature than me! wrath!" and made the game last forever.
So yeah the "reset button" cards should be using accordingly when the table need it. And MLD is the most tricky and the most "restting" of all the reset buttons. If you use reset button just to put yourself at advantage or, even worse, at random, expect other players to act accordingly. That means targeting you (at best) or not liking to play with you (at worst).
Hey, i wasted one of my counterspell for your MLD, now i have only one for the dangerous ramp player! Well the alternative was stopping playing for 2-3 turns, so i guess i'll take it!
... so yeah, another situation were MLD just made things worse
I meant the good for the whole table, not jut for yourself. Of course MLD is good for yourself. The problem is that it's not going to be good for the table in almost any situation, so the table is right to discourage it or KOS.
I have yet to see a situation where MLD good sides outweight its bad sides.
I think the problem you are having is that you think only about your perspective and not about other players also. "Yeah i stopped the ramp player with my armageddon, he was going to win""But i had two counterspells in my hand, i could have stopped him too, no i have to sit down for several turns doing nothing".
Using a wildfire just to kill a ramunap or a mul daya for example will get you o much hate from the table... and for the right reason. The ramp player will still have more land and the others won't be able to do anything.
I agree it's a great a tool, in fact you were able to keep coffers/urborg and become the ramp player yourself. So it wasn't actually a move made for greater justice or to make everything fair, it was just to make you win. Don't complain if other people want to stop you from winning, so they want to stop wildfire.
All the situations you are pointing out feels a lot like magical christmas land. Yeah a player was able to ramp until 9 just with cultivate and rampant growth variants (while the other players have what? 6 lands? 5 lands? 4 lands?), cast tooth and nail, assemble a combo and win without any other player having counterspell or removals?
Many safepoint where you can stop the player without needing MLD and restarting the game.
The only convincing argument you made is about Omnath and similar decks. MLD can really be the best strategy against them.
Everytime someone tries the pro MLD players still talk about the social aspect.
I have yet to hear:
- why MLD is better than single-target land destruction against lands like cradle/coffers
- how can MLD help against other forms of ramp. Mana crypt + Mana vault surely is a lot worse than farseek + cultivate
- how can limited MLD (like wildfire) stop the ramp player
- why harming the other players is better than all together ganging on the ramp player
- why you can't use removal or theft effects against the ramp player.
i'd really like to hear the answers, but i bet the only thing i will get is "you are too entitled because you think land are sacred, they are resources like everything else" or something like that.
Hey man, nice 8-drop you played on turn 5! Mind if i copy it and make it better?
Whaaat? You wanna play another? Thank you for the gift
Hey there, your commander too? You are too kind!
And meanwhile, all other players still have lands so they can actually fight the ramp player with removals too? Man, that sounds almost like magic
I don't see where i called you liar.
You said that MLD can in some narrow cases help against ramp but it's mostly used to put yourself at advantage or secure yourself the victory. That's the truth.
If someone says that they are putting MLD just because ramp is unfair, they don't gain any adavantage from MLD but just want to make everything balanced and fair, they are liars. And i don't want to hear how i shouldn't attack them because the armageddon in their deck is there to help me too.
Quite different saying you play something because you want or you say you play something because it's a good and righteous way to fight an oppressive strategy.
I can bear the land destruction even if i'd rather visit my dentist; i can't bear someone's lies because he want to feel morally superior
Oh well finally.
MLD isn't used to combat ramp. It's used t support artifact ramp or commanders that don't require many lands.
You ignored all my other points just to make this poor argument?
Tell me with a straight which playable land destruction effect they printed after... i don't know... return to ravnica?
Plenty of powerful spells printed during this period (cyclonic rift, toxic deluge), land destruction got the shaft.
They don't want to print that ***** anymore because no one want to play that ***** anymore. Except the jerk that use it to win uncontested of course.
damping sphere, blood sun, alpine moon. These are the kind of land destruction that they are pushing now
And they aren't popular in edh because they are FAIR
Cards can be mistakes you know. Otherwise yeah i'd like to start a petition for green lightning bolt since hornet sting exists.
Yeah land destruction isn't a new feature, it's actually the opposite, recently they are avoiding it as much as possible.
Maybe they understood too that land destruction is just miserable and the best way to combat ramp are effects like damping sphere?
But the problem is exactly that: damping sphere makes thing fair. MLD can easily be exploited to give you a big advantage while everyone else feel miserable
You don't have to devote 30-40% of your deck to artifact/elves and you don't have to play an artifact/elf every turn in order to make significant plays.
Comparing land drops to other resources is just... silly.
It's like if they put an unit able to destroy crystals and vespene gas in starcraft. You can destroy workers, why not destroy resources also?
Because those basic resources are required to enjoy the game.
Sounds like you have way more mana than the """ramp player""" and, surprise, wildfire helped you the most!
I don't understand how wildfire can punish ramp
The player with 11 lands still has 7 lands and can still cast fatties
The player with 7 lands still has 3 lands and can cast cultivate
The player with 4 lands now has nothing
And every war must have its civil victims right? Seems like a fun mentality to have in a game.
Meanwhile you can destroy that problematic Coffer with beast within, chaos warp, strip mine, song of the dryads, imprisoned in the moon and vindicate.
But hey if you need an excuse to play MLD and feel morally right just do it.
That player cast rampant growth! Surely my armageddon will solve everything!
Meanwhile the combo player is laughing with his sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.