I know this is a dumb reason to dredge this topic back up, but I just realized that the scourge edition of decree of annihilation has LESS reminder text than the "premium" FTV version. Eww.
I mean, obviously you have your mind made up on the topic, so it’s probably best we agree to disagree.
I think most people should be able to agree that MLD can be an effective answer to ramp in some situations. The problem, besides all the social contract stuff, is that there are many situations in which it isn't - if they're primarily ramping with artifacts or creatures it's weak. If they already have powerful nonland stuff out it's weak. If you don't have a good recovery plan or a good board, it's weak. If the ramper has a good recovery plan, it's weak. A counterspell, mind twist, etc will practically always at least be a step in the right direction to controlling the player, or at least they definitely won't make things worse.
In the right meta I could see MLD being a reliable counter to certain ramp-based decks and could earn a slot for only that reason, but if I were putting it in a deck without specific meta knowledge it would be primarily as a way to seal a win, and if once in a blue moon it was a good answer to ramp then that would just be a bonus.
I think you missed my point actually. I personally believe you are misrepresenting land destruction VS other forms of disruption which can stall out a player.
Also social aspect is already inherent within MTG, its called interacting with the person or people who are your opponent(s) with words, emotions, body language, facial expressions, and physical contact (Example: Handshake for a good game).
You are also doing that thing I personally despise about these types of arguments: You are conflating different aspects of the game as if they meant the same thing. These aspects in this case are: social interaction, personal enjoyment, and gameplay. These aspects can be in conjunction but are also are distinct from each other and are never always all together.
When a large enough number of people say that having an enjoyable game is dependent on being able to cast their cards, then something that prevents gameplay from happening will necessarily prevent fun from happening too, and for most people (especially angry nerds) someone stopping them from having fun will also probably make them less social. Some people don't mind that sort of thing, so of course in a like-minded group you should do whatever you like, but conflating those things for the majority of EDH players isn't without cause.
Anyway, MLD is imo completely different from other forms of wipe because other forms of wipe can be played around relatively easily. If you know your opponent runs creature wipes, avoid having significantly more value in creatures than they do at a given time to restrict the value they can get, same for artifacts and enchantments. Land wipes are not the same - sandbag lands all you want, if they can establish a dominant position for a single turn and then wipe lands, no amount of preparation will save you or help you reload faster than 1 land per turn (barring exploration or what-have-you).
This is def getting off topic, but there are quite a few colorless artifact/enchantment removal cards (karn, ugin for enchantments, that 7 mana instant, spine of ish sah, probably others I can't think of instantaneously) plus tutors for them (ring of wishes, phyrexian portal, planar portal). Admittedly most of them are pretty pricey and harder to cast without artifacts, but presumably you can still cast cheaper things that do something in the meantime, while you're waiting to drop lands. And I mean, if you're building a deck that's almost pure artifacts you've got to have some awareness that you ought to plan ahead for the weaknesses that entails.
MLD is especially problematic imo because (1) it affects every deck, somewhere on the spectrum between "pretty big deal" to "instantly lose the game deal" and (2) there's really no telling where it's coming from, and (3) it's hard to prepare for, especially given how rarely it comes up. It's the sort of thing that, if commander was best-of-3 with sideboarding (don't ask me how) it would be a much lesser deal, because it IS play-aroundable to a certain extent, by preventing the MLD player from ever getting too far ahead (although that's still a lot to ask for a single 4-mana card). The problem with its status in commander right now is that it's unexpected, extremely high impact, and difficult enough to play around that it's generally incorrect to do so given the rarity and generally frowning-upon it receives. If a meta consistently plays MLD then it will probably be less of an issue (though still, imo, too high impact) because people will play accordingly, but playing MLD in a meta that isn't expecting it is especially unfair imo.
You won't find me disagreeing with that, and I certainly wouldn't force a group that didn't want to play MLD to start running it or vice-versa (and for the record, my playrgoup's attitude to MLD [as with most strategies] is "fine, but not every game"). I'm really just trying to get my head round the attitude of "MLD is uniquely bad" that some people seem to have by pointing out the experiences I've had with this format in which other effects that seem far more tolerated will do the same thing as 'Geddon and that the "can't play at all" experience of the latter isn't something I see that often.
I think it's weird that your defense of MLD in a thread about combatting ramp is "well, it's not that bad as long as you're ramping."
I think there's a difference between a full on ramp deck which is trying to completely break the 1 mana/turn baseline, and a "normal" deck that still wants to have a bit of acceleration/fixing from spells. My group is mainly the latter, although we certainly have a few "big mana" decks around (mostly green based, though I do have a Kozilek deck with a rather ridiculous amount of rocks - that's a deck for which a Bane of Progress or, god forbid, an early Null Rod is far more harmful to my ability to play Magic than an Armageddon).
If a deck consistently has ramp in the first few turns, you'd expect probably like 10% ramp? Idk, I'd call that a ramp deck. Doesn't have to be all-in.
And null rod you can just remove, that's way more interactive than geddon, even ignoring the part where geddon can completely remove mana while null rod usually cannot.
I don't think there's a problem with destroying "the bulk" of someone's mana. As I've said I'm fine with natural balance. The problem is in destroying ALL of someone's mana. Which will very rarely be the case for artifacts or creatures.
Land Destruction is still being printed, it isn't as good as it has been printed in the past but I think generally you can only say that is not true of Creatures these days with a straight face.
Targeted land destruction, yes, MLD, not really. No reasonable person thinks targeted LD is a serious problem, especially in multiplayer. There's stuff like the great aurora that you could kiiiind of claim as MLD but it's a real stretch. By far the closest we've had was fall of the thran, but that's a very far cry from armageddon and is much closer to stuff like natural balance.
There have been some real MLD as recently as TSP, kamigawa, etc, which isn't so long ago (or maybe I'm just old). But I think part of the issue is that MLD isn't nearly as big a problem in the more classic magic formats - 20 life, 1v1. In a faster format like that, beating MLD is much easier - just kill them before they play it, or have enough on board that they can't afford to play it. In commander, that solution is much more difficult to pull off, unless you're playing fast combos. Unless you already know the decks, you don't know who to kill, and MLD is in multiple colors so most decks could conceivably be packing, so that solution is basically off the table. Which means your options are to either never let someone else be ahead, or to be running counterspells. Pretty limited avenues of interaction. Now that commander is one of the most popular formats, I think wotc is a lot more hesitant to print MLD, even overpriced MLD that won't see play in standard, because it's going to be powerful at casual commander tables at almost any sane price.
To be clear, I think in a cEDH context they're fine because the ability to win before they resolve, or win afterwards even with just a couple land, is very plausible. But in a lower-powered meta I think they're way too powerful.
It's about as much of an anti-ramp card as tooth and nail, or any other win-the-game card, is. I mean I guess winning the game does stop ramp, you've got me there.
It isn't someone's mana it is everyone's mana it is a meaningful distinction.
Well, that's not quite accurate either. It doesn't destroy everyone's mana, or at least not ALL of everyone's mana. Mana dorks and rocks are left unaffected, which are just two of the ways to break the symmetry of the effect.
It's really less of an anti-ramp card, and more of a pro-artifact-ramp card.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
If armageddon said "destroy all lands that got put into play by spells" (which is essentially the equivalent of bane of progress or wrath of god) then I don't think this thread would have any arguments at all in it.
Probably some people do consider lands sacred and are just being whiners, but my problem is with the ability for a single card to destroy 100% of someone's mana. That is, imo, too strong of an effect for a single spell, especially a 4 mana spell that many decks have no capability to interact with meaningfully.
Hold on did I just see that you could top deck a mass draw spell in response to a Mind Twist on this page and you will be fine afterwords? Let alone the fact that Mind Twist is a card that only targets one player and not all the lands in play, and not alone the differences of finding one of those spells depending on what kind of deck you are playing.
The amount you are behind is a different level of magnitude.
If you gave me the choice in 90% of Commander games of Mind Twist my hand or cast Armageddon I am picking the latter every single time.
And yeah, who thinks you can just recover after discarding to Mind Twist? I'm in topdeck mode, and I just have to draw a Reforge the Soul or Blue Sun's Zenith or Damnable Pact or Shamanic Revelation (lol u sux white) to fix that? I call bull***** on that. Yeah, I can fix my problem that way, but what are the odds of me doing so? Even the green options all depend on my board state.
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between which I'd rather have happen to me, rather simply to illustrate that discard is at least possible to recover from quickly. Whereas for most decks there's no possibility of recovery from a geddon when behind on board.
Obviously which is actually worse for you depends on your deck and what's currently going on. The fact that mind twist only hits you is a big difference - perhaps a better point of comparison would be mindslicer. But I think this points to mind twist being the superior anti-ramp card, since you can single a player out rather than setting everyone back (assuming you aren't playing geddon as a wincon, which is more likely the case).
And sure, maybe the ramp player has a slightly thinner deck from tutoring lands which gives them slightly lower chances to topdeck them, but that's not nearly as relevant as the current board state. Unless they've cast boundless realms specifically, they're probably looking at like a difference of a single-digit percentage at worst in terms of drawing, and most of the time when geddon resolves drawing isn't very relevant anyway since the board state is all that matters. One uncontested planeswalker or a gilded lotus is worth a dozen lands in hand.
The problem with saying that MLD is just another form of resource punishment is that land, unlike other resources, is very difficult to replenish. Someone hits you with mind twist? Topdeck a big draw spell and you're fine. Someone hits you with a board wipe? No problem, if you've played it smart you might have a hand full of creatures to reload. With MLD, short of a counterspell or a handful of other pretty specific tools like faith's reward(which requires keeping up 4) or splendid reclamation(which still needs some mana to cast post geddon), there is basically no way to interact with it. Otherwise your plan is to keep playing one land per turn at best until you're back in the game, which is way too slow to be relevant if the MLD player has planned ahead by either having a wincon on board, or a decent amount of artifact mana. You can be sitting on a handful of land just in case someone plays geddon, and it's still going to mean nothing most of the time. So this argument of punishing players for not planning ahead or whatever is nonsense.
And the idea that you're punishing ramp is similarly ludicrous. Well-placed MLD wins the game by punishing people for not having board presence, not for playing ramp specifically. If the ramp player has already deployed a big threat or two then they probably don't mind it at all. On the other hand, someone playing a non-rampy deck could easily get knocked out of the game just as easily as the ramper, if they don't have much on board. Plus, of course, any non-land ramp isn't affected by MLD. If your group enjoys MLD and thinks it's a fair wincon, then go ahead and play it, I've got nothing against players who like playing high-powered decks against other high-powered decks. But it's not a ramp punisher. It's a punisher for anyone who doesn't currently have a significant board presence or artifact mana.
If you want to punish ramp specifically, you've got a few options:
-play aggressively to hurt them while they're powering up
-they have a lower threat to mana ratio, so having answers can slow them down a lot
-there are a handful of cards that hurt ramp players while not locking people out of the game, like natural balance and keldon firebombers, as long as your group is cool with them
-play targeted LD like strip mine to deal with the coffers and gaea's cradles of the world
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
In the right meta I could see MLD being a reliable counter to certain ramp-based decks and could earn a slot for only that reason, but if I were putting it in a deck without specific meta knowledge it would be primarily as a way to seal a win, and if once in a blue moon it was a good answer to ramp then that would just be a bonus.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Anyway, MLD is imo completely different from other forms of wipe because other forms of wipe can be played around relatively easily. If you know your opponent runs creature wipes, avoid having significantly more value in creatures than they do at a given time to restrict the value they can get, same for artifacts and enchantments. Land wipes are not the same - sandbag lands all you want, if they can establish a dominant position for a single turn and then wipe lands, no amount of preparation will save you or help you reload faster than 1 land per turn (barring exploration or what-have-you).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
MLD is especially problematic imo because (1) it affects every deck, somewhere on the spectrum between "pretty big deal" to "instantly lose the game deal" and (2) there's really no telling where it's coming from, and (3) it's hard to prepare for, especially given how rarely it comes up. It's the sort of thing that, if commander was best-of-3 with sideboarding (don't ask me how) it would be a much lesser deal, because it IS play-aroundable to a certain extent, by preventing the MLD player from ever getting too far ahead (although that's still a lot to ask for a single 4-mana card). The problem with its status in commander right now is that it's unexpected, extremely high impact, and difficult enough to play around that it's generally incorrect to do so given the rarity and generally frowning-upon it receives. If a meta consistently plays MLD then it will probably be less of an issue (though still, imo, too high impact) because people will play accordingly, but playing MLD in a meta that isn't expecting it is especially unfair imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
If a deck consistently has ramp in the first few turns, you'd expect probably like 10% ramp? Idk, I'd call that a ramp deck. Doesn't have to be all-in.
And null rod you can just remove, that's way more interactive than geddon, even ignoring the part where geddon can completely remove mana while null rod usually cannot.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That said, I think it's a sad state of affairs when all decks are ramp decks. Yawn.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
There have been some real MLD as recently as TSP, kamigawa, etc, which isn't so long ago (or maybe I'm just old). But I think part of the issue is that MLD isn't nearly as big a problem in the more classic magic formats - 20 life, 1v1. In a faster format like that, beating MLD is much easier - just kill them before they play it, or have enough on board that they can't afford to play it. In commander, that solution is much more difficult to pull off, unless you're playing fast combos. Unless you already know the decks, you don't know who to kill, and MLD is in multiple colors so most decks could conceivably be packing, so that solution is basically off the table. Which means your options are to either never let someone else be ahead, or to be running counterspells. Pretty limited avenues of interaction. Now that commander is one of the most popular formats, I think wotc is a lot more hesitant to print MLD, even overpriced MLD that won't see play in standard, because it's going to be powerful at casual commander tables at almost any sane price.
To be clear, I think in a cEDH context they're fine because the ability to win before they resolve, or win afterwards even with just a couple land, is very plausible. But in a lower-powered meta I think they're way too powerful.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's really less of an anti-ramp card, and more of a pro-artifact-ramp card.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Probably some people do consider lands sacred and are just being whiners, but my problem is with the ability for a single card to destroy 100% of someone's mana. That is, imo, too strong of an effect for a single spell, especially a 4 mana spell that many decks have no capability to interact with meaningfully.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between which I'd rather have happen to me, rather simply to illustrate that discard is at least possible to recover from quickly. Whereas for most decks there's no possibility of recovery from a geddon when behind on board.
Obviously which is actually worse for you depends on your deck and what's currently going on. The fact that mind twist only hits you is a big difference - perhaps a better point of comparison would be mindslicer. But I think this points to mind twist being the superior anti-ramp card, since you can single a player out rather than setting everyone back (assuming you aren't playing geddon as a wincon, which is more likely the case).
And sure, maybe the ramp player has a slightly thinner deck from tutoring lands which gives them slightly lower chances to topdeck them, but that's not nearly as relevant as the current board state. Unless they've cast boundless realms specifically, they're probably looking at like a difference of a single-digit percentage at worst in terms of drawing, and most of the time when geddon resolves drawing isn't very relevant anyway since the board state is all that matters. One uncontested planeswalker or a gilded lotus is worth a dozen lands in hand.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And the idea that you're punishing ramp is similarly ludicrous. Well-placed MLD wins the game by punishing people for not having board presence, not for playing ramp specifically. If the ramp player has already deployed a big threat or two then they probably don't mind it at all. On the other hand, someone playing a non-rampy deck could easily get knocked out of the game just as easily as the ramper, if they don't have much on board. Plus, of course, any non-land ramp isn't affected by MLD. If your group enjoys MLD and thinks it's a fair wincon, then go ahead and play it, I've got nothing against players who like playing high-powered decks against other high-powered decks. But it's not a ramp punisher. It's a punisher for anyone who doesn't currently have a significant board presence or artifact mana.
If you want to punish ramp specifically, you've got a few options:
-play aggressively to hurt them while they're powering up
-they have a lower threat to mana ratio, so having answers can slow them down a lot
-there are a handful of cards that hurt ramp players while not locking people out of the game, like natural balance and keldon firebombers, as long as your group is cool with them
-play targeted LD like strip mine to deal with the coffers and gaea's cradles of the world
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6