Well, to be fair, I thinks it’s been pretty clearly established that MLD does not Combat Ramp in the slightest. Muddying the thread aside(and who are you to make this claim) MLD isn’t the answer anyways, so again, what’s your point?
I think you missed my point actually. I personally believe you are misrepresenting land destruction VS other forms of disruption which can stall out a player
Count me in, then, because I don’t understand your point at all.
Assuming they have more in hand, actively tutor them, recover their prior rocks, or luckily draw into them. Can result in "draw-go" if it stops a deck from progressing further as the pilot hopes to find more to put them back into the game. Which can result in the game stalling out based on the impact except for the person who did it.
To me, this reads like your saying blowing up rocks/dorks screeches the game to a halt much like MLD does. I can’t really wrap my head around your point.
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
You seem to be purposely conflating ramp and playing one land per turn as the base rule. I am quite aware you can get multiple lands into play. Under the normal rules you can play one per turn, no such restrictions exist for other card types. If you suspect a board wipe is coming, you can hold back creatures and play as many as you like, limited by mana, post wipe. That is patently untrue about land. And again, you do not need those other card types to play the game, you need land. Post Wrath games still function fluidly, and people rebuild. Post Armageddon games turn into 'draw go' very often, because people can't play anything.
I have zero issue with targeted LD, and even agree MLD is a strategy you can leverage to win. It being possible, and it being fun, are very different animals.
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper. Now, if that player has to assume that MLD could be coming, then that player is free to sandbag a ramp spell and a couple lands and recover from a 'Geddon. Instead, because of this notion that lands are sacred, a player can aggressively tutor lands out of their library and fix their mana, setting up for huge turns with no downside.
First off, this is freaking Christmasland if I’ve ever seen it. 6 of 9 possible cards being played out like this? This is the example you choose? I’ve played decks with these cards, in 1 out of ~100 would I ever get a start like this. Beyond that, this is no different, yet more resource intensive, than a Sol Ring + a Signet in the first 3 turns. So, you’re out to punish that ramp player(and the other players who didn’t Ramp) after he’s played 6 of his 9 cards? Let me guess, they have Blue Sun’s Zenith, right? Or probably Timetwister, ‘cause that’s how this stuff plays out.
This player will untap with 6 mana, plus a land drop, and whether there's a Wrath of God, Shatterstorm or Armageddon, the player will be able to rebuild their mana. This player also may understand that you can;t just assume your mana will stay intact, so instead of running 4-5 versions of Blue Sun's Zenith the player is running a Divination to refuel.
If people don't like MLD, I get it. People don't like Wrath. People don't like Vandalblast. These are all hurdles one should expect to overcome. If you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to losing all of your mana because you have no diversity or you play out all of your mana, that's on you.
This is still ramp, though. You aren’t combatting anything. The only thing you are doing is resetting the game, which is annoying as f***.
If anything, the examples you give are examples of poorly employed use of MLD. There is literally single digit percentages difference in the probability of the ramp player bricking on subsequent draws to not recover. Then, when they inevitably do, they’ll bury the table because you probably can’t answer anything at that point.
Hold on did I just see that you could top deck a mass draw spell in response to a Mind Twist on this page and you will be fine afterwords? Let alone the fact that Mind Twist is a card that only targets one player and not all the lands in play, and not alone the differences of finding one of those spells depending on what kind of deck you are playing.
The amount you are behind is a different level of magnitude.
If you gave me the choice in 90% of Commander games of Mind Twist my hand or cast Armageddon I am picking the latter every single time.
I really don’t see how, on two separate fronts. No hand w/ resources at least allows me to cast a drawn piece to advance my board. At worst, your commander. WTF are you doing with a grip full of cards and nothing to play them with? Or, the inevitibale counter point being “artifact source in play”, which is the second point, ‘Geddoning to doing nothing but slow the game. Every deck is non-land>Lands, so I’d prefer to draw into something and play it, which I’ll have higher probability of doing.
Also there is probably something lost here in that people are substituting ramp to mean a deck that wants to increase how much mana it can produce the next turn to decks about ramp. Because even in our situation where someone casts an Armageddon that player is not not ramping. The thing people are saying it punishes are big flashy ramp spells that often go overlooked in this game until they then overwhelm it.
There are literally two of thesecards that see any meaningful play(big splashy ramp that gets overlooked). If you are packing MLD for exactly 2 cards, we’ll, we should have a chat about deck construction.
The deck that has a handful of 2, 3, 4 and probably 7 mana ramp spells, versus the decks with a couple and some rocks. If you hit the deck loaded the brim with ramp spells at the right time it is foolish to think that you are not putting them further behind.
Sure, and everybody else at the table. If any point is being missed, it’s that there are other players at the table. There are more, and much more efficient, ways to rein in ramp without wrecking the table.
Also hey the Magic The Gathering is a game about resource denial is back again and more true than ever before.
Any idea where I can find the source for this philosophy? Maybe just not looking in the right places, and I’d hate to be playing the game wrong all of these years. Regardless, that is certainly not how the creators of the format feel.
Where the actual f*** does this even come from? Do you really believe that? I see your Alesha deck in your signature, and I had one myself. I had an incredibly low curve with some high-cost targets that probably would never be hard cast. I had Sol Ring and the corresponding signets, that’s it. The deck functioned really well. Won way more games than lost, that’s for sure. I played in a no-LD group, and I can safely say that ramp players didn’t run away with games. Likewise, I played hundreds of games with Big Green decks and lost plenty, without LD.
Again, MLD does nothing to Ramp. It’s a way to protect boardstates. Saying otherwise is flat out wrong. Fast combo also punishes Ramp decks, so why not just suggest that?
Players should expect to be punished in Magic. The whole idea that we're entitled to keep our resources is ludicrous at best.
Uh, no. That’s not the type of game everybody enjoys. That’s also not the type of game the RC of the format encourages. I don’t care about Wrath of God or whatever kind of sweeper is needed. Targeted LD is also fair game. I don’t really see the need for MLD, specifically if it’s just employed to “slow the ramp player”, or worse, that “players should expect to be punished”.
I play "MLD Tribal". There's not a single time where I resolve one, that it doesn't end the game in my favor.
Wait, I though MLD was used to rein in the ramp player? I thought it was to police those high curve decks from getting out of control? MLD isn’t some tactic to “help” anybody from the ramp guy, it’s a win-con for you. I thought the point of this discussion was how to handle ramp, not how to win with MLD. See, entitled. So the guy can’t ramp to 100 and win, but you can blow sh** up and win.
In short, you aren’t playing Armageddon to slow down ano ramp player, you are only playing it to win.
Alright, say I'm in a war against you. By the very nature of the war, our strategies and resources are in contention. So if I build an army of Panzers to roll over your borders and meanwhile, you nuke my capital city, you have a) beaten my tanks because my entire government is dead and unable to lead, and b) won the war. Drinks is saying combating ramp and winning are not mutually exclusive, which is a pretty goddamn sound and valid statement in context of a card game, no?
So you’re punishing the other players as well because some dude is playing Cultivate? It’s not a “goddamn sound statement” because on just the page prior there’s a list of about a half-dozen other strategies that combat ramp that doesn’t include blowing up any lands.
They can be mutually exclusive. Hell, up until that statement not one person mentioned “Armageddon to a win”, it has mostly been “Armageddon to slow the Ramp”. Or was that just taken out of context?
Also, I can’t believe that is your interpretation of war. Sounds like 1 to many games of COD.
I play "MLD Tribal". There's not a single time where I resolve one, that it doesn't end the game in my favor.
Wait, I though MLD was used to rein in the ramp player? I thought it was to police those high curve decks from getting out of control? MLD isn’t some tactic to “help” anybody from the ramp guy, it’s a win-con for you. I thought the point of this discussion was how to handle ramp, not how to win with MLD. See, entitled. So the guy can’t ramp to 100 and win, but you can blow sh** up and win.
In short, you aren’t playing Armageddon to slow down a ramp player, you are only playing it to win.
Secondly, MLD. Just, ramp players don't expect it; the format's culture has made them feel entitled. As with everything, when you start house-banning anti-X, don't be surprised if X takes over.
Once again Hyalapter comes in with the real truth the 90% are afraid to say.
It’s not the “real truth” if it isn’t true.
What about heavy Artifact Ramp? Or Mana Dorks? The only group that sounds “entitled” are the one who believe they are “policing” the format with MLD, protecting us all from the big scary ramp monster.
For reals tho, who has ever said “Thanks for blowing up my sh** just to slow that guy down”.
MLD isn’t even very good to begin with when employed against veteran players. Someone mentioned “Ramp diversity”, and that is exactly why it’s bad. I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve lost after getting my “11+” lands blasted at the hands of MLD in a Ramp deck. I’ve lost too many to count when I thought MLD would help rein in a Ramp deck I’m playing against. Let me put it this way, I’ve lost more games with my Ramp untouched than I have when it gets destroyed. For instance, the other night I watched a game like ones describe here. Dude hits Boundless Realms turn 4 with an Elvish Archdruid and Priest of Titania, giving him like 8 lands plus his dudes. Another guy hits the table with Armageddon, with a Sol Ring out. Ramp player shrugs, plays his Forest, plays his Llanowar Elf he drew and then cast Splendid Reclamation. The other 3 guys at the table quit and the ‘geddon user died a few turns later. Unless the MLD user is comboing off, this is how MLD usually plays out.
Fact is, they are more prepared for MLD than the person dropping it.
I’m not entirely sure where people get off thinking the other players will “thank” them for nuking everyone’s lands, because that never happens. I mean, you speak for the other players at the table? Pretty toxic attitude if you ask me.
If the complaint against Armageddon like effects is the durdling for so many turns for lack of lands, a well-timed Planar Cleansing does a lot more if most players have nothing else to play afterwards; everyone's just topdecking.
As opposed to hoping to top-deck a land? Or multiple lands?
Count me in, then, because I don’t understand your point at all.
To me, this reads like your saying blowing up rocks/dorks screeches the game to a halt much like MLD does. I can’t really wrap my head around your point.
First off, this is freaking Christmasland if I’ve ever seen it. 6 of 9 possible cards being played out like this? This is the example you choose? I’ve played decks with these cards, in 1 out of ~100 would I ever get a start like this. Beyond that, this is no different, yet more resource intensive, than a Sol Ring + a Signet in the first 3 turns. So, you’re out to punish that ramp player(and the other players who didn’t Ramp) after he’s played 6 of his 9 cards? Let me guess, they have Blue Sun’s Zenith, right? Or probably Timetwister, ‘cause that’s how this stuff plays out.
This is still ramp, though. You aren’t combatting anything. The only thing you are doing is resetting the game, which is annoying as f***.
If anything, the examples you give are examples of poorly employed use of MLD. There is literally single digit percentages difference in the probability of the ramp player bricking on subsequent draws to not recover. Then, when they inevitably do, they’ll bury the table because you probably can’t answer anything at that point.
I really don’t see how, on two separate fronts. No hand w/ resources at least allows me to cast a drawn piece to advance my board. At worst, your commander. WTF are you doing with a grip full of cards and nothing to play them with? Or, the inevitibale counter point being “artifact source in play”, which is the second point, ‘Geddoning to doing nothing but slow the game. Every deck is non-land>Lands, so I’d prefer to draw into something and play it, which I’ll have higher probability of doing.
There are literally two of these cards that see any meaningful play(big splashy ramp that gets overlooked). If you are packing MLD for exactly 2 cards, we’ll, we should have a chat about deck construction.
Sure, and everybody else at the table. If any point is being missed, it’s that there are other players at the table. There are more, and much more efficient, ways to rein in ramp without wrecking the table.
Any idea where I can find the source for this philosophy? Maybe just not looking in the right places, and I’d hate to be playing the game wrong all of these years. Regardless, that is certainly not how the creators of the format feel.
Lol. No, not quite.
The irony here is that is what MLD does. Let’s you win, unimpeded.
Where the actual f*** does this even come from? Do you really believe that? I see your Alesha deck in your signature, and I had one myself. I had an incredibly low curve with some high-cost targets that probably would never be hard cast. I had Sol Ring and the corresponding signets, that’s it. The deck functioned really well. Won way more games than lost, that’s for sure. I played in a no-LD group, and I can safely say that ramp players didn’t run away with games. Likewise, I played hundreds of games with Big Green decks and lost plenty, without LD.
Again, MLD does nothing to Ramp. It’s a way to protect boardstates. Saying otherwise is flat out wrong. Fast combo also punishes Ramp decks, so why not just suggest that?
Uh, no. That’s not the type of game everybody enjoys. That’s also not the type of game the RC of the format encourages. I don’t care about Wrath of God or whatever kind of sweeper is needed. Targeted LD is also fair game. I don’t really see the need for MLD, specifically if it’s just employed to “slow the ramp player”, or worse, that “players should expect to be punished”.
So you’re punishing the other players as well because some dude is playing Cultivate? It’s not a “goddamn sound statement” because on just the page prior there’s a list of about a half-dozen other strategies that combat ramp that doesn’t include blowing up any lands.
They can be mutually exclusive. Hell, up until that statement not one person mentioned “Armageddon to a win”, it has mostly been “Armageddon to slow the Ramp”. Or was that just taken out of context?
Also, I can’t believe that is your interpretation of war. Sounds like 1 to many games of COD.
Wait, I though MLD was used to rein in the ramp player? I thought it was to police those high curve decks from getting out of control? MLD isn’t some tactic to “help” anybody from the ramp guy, it’s a win-con for you. I thought the point of this discussion was how to handle ramp, not how to win with MLD. See, entitled. So the guy can’t ramp to 100 and win, but you can blow sh** up and win.
In short, you aren’t playing Armageddon to slow down a ramp player, you are only playing it to win.
It’s not the “real truth” if it isn’t true.
What about heavy Artifact Ramp? Or Mana Dorks? The only group that sounds “entitled” are the one who believe they are “policing” the format with MLD, protecting us all from the big scary ramp monster.
For reals tho, who has ever said “Thanks for blowing up my sh** just to slow that guy down”.
Fact is, they are more prepared for MLD than the person dropping it.
I’m not entirely sure where people get off thinking the other players will “thank” them for nuking everyone’s lands, because that never happens. I mean, you speak for the other players at the table? Pretty toxic attitude if you ask me.
As opposed to hoping to top-deck a land? Or multiple lands?