What does it do to advance your gameplan? Is 3 mana for a +1/+1 counter really good? feels like a pretty crappy rate to me. If you're spending mana on that you're playing a really crappy deck I have to assume.
Or more likely, you held up mana for interaction that didn't need to be used. Now you have 3+ mana that is wasted unless you can spend it on an ability, and a +1/+1 counter and progressing and additional 1/20th towards an alternative win is much better than absolutely nothing.
This. Its a bad rate for a primary plan, but a decent rate for a backup. Sometimes you play a more reactive deck, and overpaying for an effect because it can be used at instant speed is par for the course. Sometimes, things go wrong and a reliable, repeatable counter generator is a good thing, especially if it can win the game under the right conditions. And sometimes, you get your board wiped and it helps you recover faster.
Its not awesome at doing all this, but it serves a +1/+1 counter centric plan better than Felidar serves a lifegain gameplan, because in order to gain 4 life with Felidar you have to put it at risk by attacking.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's a touch better than Felidar just because it's easier to deal with creatures, and also easy to make people lose life. Still, there's a solid amount of enchantment removal that are auto includes, like Krosan Grip, Abriot Decay, Austere Command, etc. Also, preventing counters from being placed by killing creatures can work. Black and Red will struggle, but this is a multiplayer game and this card threatens the table, so black and red just need to rely on others to help. Also, Horobi. Horobi shuts it the **** down.
I mean, if you ramp unto feldiar guardian on turn 3 or 4 and then untap and win, that takes zero cards other than a little ramp. In some games you can just cast it and then untap and win.
The difference is that the ascendancy actually requires cards to win with (you need at the very least 20 counters worth of creatures over several turns, or a multi-card combo of doubling season or vorel or whatever).
I'm sure it's fine but I don't think it's strictly stronger than sovereign (which I think of as kinda the benchmark for these nonsense win conditions).
Mechanized Production is also arguably stronger. Making 8 thopter tokens is pretty easy in the grand scheme of things. Possibly not even more significant deckbuilding constraints, since copying artifacts is pretty easy and a powerful thing to be doing on its own.
I mean, in a dedicated counter deck the card is gonna be quite powerful, but as good as Felidar or Test of Endurance in a lifegain deck or Mechanized in an artifact deck?
Remains to be seen I guess
Felidar can randomly win, but it's a dice roll, and easy to stop. Even in a dedicated lifegain deck it usually just eats removal immediately. Even so, it's worth it there, at least IMO, for the occasional free wins. Simic A I think does more to advance your game plan even if it doesn't get the free win, and it's a bit harder to answer.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I dunno about this card. It does so little on its own (a very bad mana sink) but it's also very cheap.
I am inclined to think that Felidar Sovereign is quite a bit more powerful in abstract since it doesn't really require any setup (and is a big fat blocker as well as "gain 4 life a turn" on most boards).
So my gut instinct is to say it'll probably fall in that same place, where mostly people don't dither with it, and there're far more consistent ways to win fast in Simic if that's what you're trying to do. I'm not sure losing to this would bother me if I allowed them to fill a board with critters or proliferate effects or whatever as required to make it go fast, or if I left it untouched for turn after turn and win slow.
It's a touch better than Felidar just because it's easier to deal with creatures, and also easy to make people lose life. Still, there's a solid amount of enchantment removal that are auto includes, like Krosan Grip, Abriot Decay, Austere Command, etc. Also, preventing counters from being placed by killing creatures can work. Black and Red will struggle, but this is a multiplayer game and this card threatens the table, so black and red just need to rely on others to help. Also, Horobi. Horobi shuts it the **** down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Whenever one or more +1/+1 counters are put on a creature you control, put that many growth counters on Simic Ascendancy.
As to the question at hand, I don't think we have enough data yet to show it is ubiquitous and oppressive enough to warrant a ban. It is certainly not the first alt-win card that can be broken with other broken things (or even just very strong synergies). Being an Enchantment makes it vulnerable to removal, though not as much as it would be if it were a creature. I don't really like alt-win cards like this personally, but I don't know that it is right to ban this one.
I stand corrected.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Something to keep in mind is that Doubling Season quadruples your counters. Putting 5 +1/+1 counters on a creature while Doubling Season is out means 20 growth counters for Simic Ascendancy.
So Doubling Season breaks another card? Sounds like more of an argument to ban DS than another random card.
Well, it doesn't do what Impossible is saying it does. Put 5 +1/+1s on a creature at once, and the ascendancy will generate 1 growth counter, which doubling season will turn into 2. If you put the counters all on different creatures, or on the same creature but one at a time, you can generate 10 growth counters. Simic A only adds 1 growth counter whenever 1 or more counters is put on a creature, not for each counter. So Doubling Season makes it better, but doesn't break it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
unlike other "get X things and win", there's only one thing you can really target to stop it.
(Legal) Alternate wincon cards, and ways to stop them:
Approach of the Second Sun: Mill/exile cards from the top of the library after the first cast, force the opponent to shuffle after the first cast (rare effect, and only a temporary solution)
Azor's Elocutors: Deal damage to their controller (only a temporary solution), creature removal
Barren Glory: Enchantment removal (though at least the controller will have no resources to stop you)
Battle of Wits: Enchantment removal (though it requires the group to allow something like an unlimited size sideboard to meet the requirement)
Biovisionary: Creature removal (only temporary, short of a board wipe)
Darksteel Reactor: Artifact removal, and "destroy" doesn't work (note also that this is a state-based trigger not an upkeep trigger, so you can't simply wait until the counter-accumulation is complete)
Revel in Riches: Enchantment removal, artifact removal (only temporary)
Test of Endurance: Enchantment removal, damage the player (only temporary)
Of course, countermagic also works on everything, because blue is the fair color.
Truly, blue is the real hero of magic. Blue is that friend that's always shooting down your *****ty drunk plans. It always pisses you off but then one night you party without him and boom, you're spending the night in jail because you stole a giant American flag from a used car dealer, and who's that bailing you and your other buddies out and taking you to IHOP? Blue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'd say its something to keep an eye on. Its not going to go nuts in just any deck, but it can go nuts with just a little help, and R/B don't have much in the way of answers. Its got potential to be a problem, but its not clear that it will be. Usually such cards don't actually end up being a ban worthy problem, or even a problem at all. If it becomes trivially easy to just cast this and win in a couple turns off of what your deck is already doing, without any combos, then yeah, maybe, but if that's only going to be in a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck, that's probably fine. If it starts getting people in U/G to specifically start adding proliferate and +1/+1 counters to abuse it, that's a different story, but I don't see that happening.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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This. Its a bad rate for a primary plan, but a decent rate for a backup. Sometimes you play a more reactive deck, and overpaying for an effect because it can be used at instant speed is par for the course. Sometimes, things go wrong and a reliable, repeatable counter generator is a good thing, especially if it can win the game under the right conditions. And sometimes, you get your board wiped and it helps you recover faster.
Its not awesome at doing all this, but it serves a +1/+1 counter centric plan better than Felidar serves a lifegain gameplan, because in order to gain 4 life with Felidar you have to put it at risk by attacking.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Felidar can randomly win, but it's a dice roll, and easy to stop. Even in a dedicated lifegain deck it usually just eats removal immediately. Even so, it's worth it there, at least IMO, for the occasional free wins. Simic A I think does more to advance your game plan even if it doesn't get the free win, and it's a bit harder to answer.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's a touch better than Felidar just because it's easier to deal with creatures, and also easy to make people lose life. Still, there's a solid amount of enchantment removal that are auto includes, like Krosan Grip, Abriot Decay, Austere Command, etc. Also, preventing counters from being placed by killing creatures can work. Black and Red will struggle, but this is a multiplayer game and this card threatens the table, so black and red just need to rely on others to help. Also, Horobi. Horobi shuts it the **** down.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I stand corrected.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, it doesn't do what Impossible is saying it does. Put 5 +1/+1s on a creature at once, and the ascendancy will generate 1 growth counter, which doubling season will turn into 2. If you put the counters all on different creatures, or on the same creature but one at a time, you can generate 10 growth counters. Simic A only adds 1 growth counter whenever 1 or more counters is put on a creature, not for each counter. So Doubling Season makes it better, but doesn't break it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Truly, blue is the real hero of magic. Blue is that friend that's always shooting down your *****ty drunk plans. It always pisses you off but then one night you party without him and boom, you're spending the night in jail because you stole a giant American flag from a used car dealer, and who's that bailing you and your other buddies out and taking you to IHOP? Blue.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!