After playing the deck a lot now over the past few days I can confidently say that Ice-Fang is definitely worth it. My question is just whether you want 3 or 4. Even when it doesn't have deathtouch, it provides an effect that bant control wants - drawing cards and providing tempo. The addition of being able to pressure opposing Narsets is also very handy in control mirrors. When you draw it late, deathtouch is always turned on which is nice. I've messed around with the mana base a little to include a pair of ETB tapped snow-duals (can't fetch them though) just to have Deathtouch more frequently.
Here's the list I'm currently on and it feels very consistent and strong:
I gave up the Field of Ruins, as Growth Spiral demands a lot of colored mana if you want to be be able to Spiral into a Spell on turn 2. I think if you want field of ruin, you could probably drop the 2 snow-duals for a single field and a misty rainforest. If you went that route I would suggest dropping Coatl number 4 for a Heiroglyphic illumination.
The other thing of note was dropping the sweepers altogether - if you can consistently turn on Coatl, verdict is not necessary.
I've been happy with the 5 "negate" effects of 3 force, 2 pierce - Its a control deck, so creature spells don't bother me a whole lot.
Mirror match feels good. Only played against Hogaak once, and he died to his deck not functioning properly so I can't really speak on the matchup, I don't see it being a whole lot different than UW. Tron is probably a lot differen't with no field of Ruin, but my experience with growth spiral decks in the past has been that the matchup is good despite low numbers of field of ruin (ran 1-2 copies in the past) - they just have such a hard time beating an early jace if you have any disruption at all. Now with force of negation, I dont see this matchup being too hard.
@jayjay I agree that this is looking pretty good, but I have a few points. Firstly, why play any Spell Pierce at all? 4 Forces, no pierce suits my purposes much better. Secondly, with Hoogark Vine on the prowl, I think you want access to Terminus -- especially if you are able to force the Altar. I don't like the Pulse of Murasa much, and I think you could trim a Snapcaster for the 4th Coatl.
Another thing to consider is Teferi, Time Raveler, since he forces a trade with Coatl by stopping their removal while also being able to bounce Coatl for value. He also plays well with Oust, but I think On Thin Ice is likely better anyways since you're only playing 2 Fields. Maybe with Coatls, you shouldn't be playing anything other than 4 Paths tho.
I'm not a big fan of the Traverse package, it only gets Snaps and Emrakul, and that doesn't seem like it's doing enough. Plus, how will you get 4 card types if you don't draw a STE?
I had some mana issues, but I generally just had too few lands in the opener. I actually mulliganed several times due to only having 1 land. I will say that the basic forest seemed like the worst land in the deck, nearly costing me several games singlehandedly. A Field could be cut to add another colored source, but I think it might be too necessary. If I added 2 lands, they'd probably be the 3rd and 4th Misty, since you really need some untapped lands but more checklands make each other worse and play poorly with Colonnade.
I played the following list to a 4-1 finish last night at FNM. Went 1-2 Spirits (very close games, Mausoleum Wanderer is a great card), 2-0 BG Elves (it was a budget list), 2-1 Traditional Affinity, 2-1 Grixis Shadow, 2-0 Tron. Deck felt great:
I definitely feel that Spiral is powreful enough to splash green for. It was especially good against Tron, helping me to keep ahead of their threats with Cryptics and powering up Logic Knots while allowing me to recover very quickly from cast triggers hitting my lands. I think this list might be better than the Think Twice/WR list, but I still want to test Hieroglyphic Illumination and WR together. Maybe even throw in a Torrential Gearhulk or 2.
Also, JayJay, perhaps the reason you're finding Field to be so bad is because you're playing so few lands. If you played a less Xerox-focused list, and went to 24/25 lands, you'd be able to consistently find your colors AND have Field available. But that would require a shift away from the tempo aspects, and more to the control side.
The issue I see with bant tempo is that you don't really need to ramp to 4 on T3, you'd really rather ramp to 3 on T2 (for cantrip+counter or Threat+counter or T2 Queller). I think you might be better off with Noble Hierarchs, since the only real payoffs at 4 mana are Restoration Angel, Cryptic, and Jace, and one I just thought of -- Advent of the Wurm. Noble also lets you T2 Spiral in to 2 mana interaction like Leak/Knot.
The way I see it, you have 2 choices -- more tempo or more flash with Resto/Cryptics:
I cut Jace from the list because it's a little slow and doesn't flip Delver. I put in the rest of the Cryptics instead, since it fills the 4 slot for Shoal, can still gain CA, and flips Delver.
I have been finding Wilderness Reclamation to be very good, but only in a list with Think Twice. The issue is that Think Twice is a pretty poor draw spell for this deck, seeing as it's 3 mana to TT+Terminus if you're conscious of a miracle, and otherwise is generally slow (tho not too bad, since we have ramp and lots of time). But it's very annoying to have to decide whether to cycle TT while you have the two mana up or to wait until you can cycle it with a W up. You really don't want to draw a Terminus by accident when you don't have mana for it, since we don't play a lot of removal and the TT list doesn't have room for Snapcasters for extra ground protection. And that's assuming the TT is in your hand! I've found the deck to be really wanting Snapcasters in the main anyways, especially with WRec. But, of course that shouldn't surprise anyone.
So, I'm trying out a list with Snaps and Opts over TT and WR. Rec is a no-go without TT, because otherwise you sit there with nothing to do with the mana. It's a shame, though, because I've actually found it to be really good when you have TTs and Spirals to go with it. Perhaps a list with 4 Hieroglyphic Illuminations and WR would be reasonable.
As for why I'm even splashing green in the first place, it's because have 8 (!!) cantrips that are honestly just good in general and also good for miracling Terminus on 2 is great, and so is playing a T3 Jace. Can't do that in straight UW.
Yea, that's fair, secure is probably better and I don't think I want Thirst anyways - thirst was to enable Azcanta a bit, but I want to minimize the number of graveyard focused cards for postboard games anyways so Azcanta might not make the cut regardless. Almost every postboard game I've played so far has had my opponent on dead or low impact cards (leyline of the void, rest in peace, relic of Progenitus).
I've been pretty excited about this list actually been working on it all morning and I think this could be a 1-of gifts ungiven list if you include a card like Snapcaster or Mission Briefing as well. I know I just finished saying that I wanted to minimize on the GY cards, but I think those cards are powerful enough on their own to warrant wasting a slot on.
I have to say, I honestly believe Growth Spiral is good enough, regardless of the shell. I already have everything in paper (once the new cards get here, I pre-ordered) and I really think this deck is insane. You could probably do without the last 2 Misties tho. I've played 6 fetches in tricolor control for a year or so now and it's been fine.
Edit: I should clarify that I mean I played 6 fetches on purpose, not for budgetary concerns. I have the other fetches, but I honestly feel that numbers 7/8 aren't necessary.
The main issue with glittering wish is that it's too slow in a fair deck. Sideboard issues are ancillary. If you look at the decks where wish cards have been successful are combo decks, where they wish for a card that kills you. The most recent success with glittering with was when treasure cruise was legal with jeskai ascendancy.
You can compare glittering wish to tool box cards like gifts ungiven and mystical teachings. Teachings is never going to be in meta again, and gifts ungiven is currently used in storm. In the past, Gifts was used in fair decks like UW tron and 4 color midrange/control (when deathrite shaman was legal), and played with unburial rites and Iona, Shield of Emeria and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. It worked temporarily in those decks as they could cast gifts on turn 3, and turn 4 reanimate the fatty as they played mana dorks and mana rocks.
With that said, glittering wish has potential as growth spiral lets you cast your wish cards sooner. And if you have Wilderness Reclamation, it allows you to wish for a card on your turn, and cast it on your opponent's turn (if it was an instant).
With the speed issue is "mitigated," I think it's worth experimenting with glittering wish. Now I realize that you are only playing four growth spirals to ramp, and that may not be enough, but the 4 color mid range/control deck only played 4 deathrite shamans as ramp.
The sideboard issue, maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out. I think the locked in choices are
So you have ~7 spots to play with. I don't know how you'd build the main deck.
I have to admit, I've never really been a fan of Glittering wish, but I do see the potential here -- Spiral makes clunky spells a lot easier to play. I'm gonna test this and see what happens.
I've played a large variety of Bant lists in the past (never worth posting until this one really), but if you really want more ramp, I've found that the 2nd best ramp spell to play is definitely Search for Tomorrow (Spiral obviously being the best ). It's great early, and gets shuffled away by Jace (or shuffles your deck to reset the top cards) later in the game. Most importantly, it doesn't tap you out.
Not sure how the mana could be made to facilitate it, but in a list with zero creatures, the hexproof on lumbering falls is very appealing. And if you ever branch out to include snapcaster mage, you could consider Pulse of Murasa; it would shine bright in a deck with Field of Ruin, Creature Lands and Snapcaster mages, especially since lifegain is an effect that UWx are always wanting for.
I like the idea, and man do I LOVE incidental lifegain. I definitely forgot about Pulse. I wanted to play a Snapcaster or two, but there's just no targets for him other than Path really. You'd need 4 mana to Snap a Growth Spiral, and it's not a super high-value play anyways. As a side note, you can use Pulse of Murasa it to counter your opponent's Goryo's Vengeance or Prized Amalgam trigger.
I believe this could be good enough for Modern for sure, Wilderness Reclamation is NUTS, and powering it out with Growth Spiral is just gross in Standard.
EDIT: Oh no Nexus? I'd look at if you can put that into the list.
Is Nexus really necessary? I mean, I feel like JtMS puts the game away a LOT faster, considering you see so many cards a turn with WR out and Spirals/Think Twices.
well i'm keeping this tab open. i started with a UW shell and put growth spiral in and adjusted the mana base after seeing someone post about it on the UW control facebook page. i'm really liking growth spiral in this list. and i could see lumbering falls possibly as a 1-of in the deck. maybe 3/1 split with colonnade.
i definitely want to try out wilderness reclamation
For sure, I'm thinking a 3/1 split makes sense, but I'm loving the evasion on Colonnade. You can't swing in a Falls vs. a Goyf or Hollow One or a big Shadow, for example.
Anyways, maybe I'm weird, but the moment Growth Spiral was spoiled I knew it would be my favorite card in the set. I'm pretty sure I did an irl fist pump when I saw it. WR was a latecomer to the deck, but it's been simultaneously great and super picky -- you have to have things to do with the mana, hence why I decided to play a set of Think Twice.
I realize you can play lands much faster with growth spiral, but 26 seems a bit high. For what it's worth I'm of the opinion to cut a land and maybe a Think Twice for one or two more planeswalkers that provide more pressure/clock to an opponent, and defend if necessary. Taking advantage of Wilderness Reclamation, you can now tap out more safely for bigger planeswalkers that can attack or provide a stream of creatures. I'm thinking Gideon Jura; Gideon, Ally of Zendikar; or maybe Elspeth, Sun's Champion as a one-of. Of course, your Search for Ass Cancer can help to find them, and they won't be affected by Terminus.
The main reason I'm playing 26 lands is to make certain I have one in hand (or draw one) to put into play with Growth Spiral. Otherwise it just cycles. I've tested a bit with 25 lands, and it seems fine. You do really wanna hit lands until 4 and windmill slam a WR on turn 3/4 (depending on whether or not you have a Growth Spiral). As for another planeswalker, I have a soft spot for Gideon Ally, so I could see playing one. I wouldn't cut Think Twice though -- it's super important for making WR good at what it does. I messed around with Hieroglyphic Illumination and Glimmer of Genius as well, but cycling illumination means you won't get a 2nd card from it later, and Glimmer can't be cast early at all.
Play T3 Jace or Cryptic off of Growth Spiral. If you draw into a Terminus off of a Spiral during their turn, you can cast it with the land you put into play. This means that, as long as you have a W producing land in hand, you can play a T2 Terminus off of Spiral.
You also get access to Wilderness Reclamation, which is nice with Think Twice and Azcanta but also just lets us tap out for walkers. It also lets you swing with Colonnades and then untap at eot to interact.
How's your BGx matchup?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Another thing to consider is Teferi, Time Raveler, since he forces a trade with Coatl by stopping their removal while also being able to bounce Coatl for value. He also plays well with Oust, but I think On Thin Ice is likely better anyways since you're only playing 2 Fields. Maybe with Coatls, you shouldn't be playing anything other than 4 Paths tho.
Arcum's Astrolabe could be good too.
Edit: No 2 mana counters seems a little odd to me as well.
Edit2: Restoration Angel seems great here too.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I also think the Nexus is too cute without Wilderness Reclamation.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I had some mana issues, but I generally just had too few lands in the opener. I actually mulliganed several times due to only having 1 land. I will say that the basic forest seemed like the worst land in the deck, nearly costing me several games singlehandedly. A Field could be cut to add another colored source, but I think it might be too necessary. If I added 2 lands, they'd probably be the 3rd and 4th Misty, since you really need some untapped lands but more checklands make each other worse and play poorly with Colonnade.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hinterland Harbor
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Halloed Fountain
2x Breeding Pool
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
Planeswalkers (5)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4x Path to Exile
1x Condemn
4x Terminus
Counters (9)
1x Spell Snare
3x Logic Knot
1x Negate
4x Cryptic Command
Card Manipulation (12)
4x Opt
4x Growth Spiral
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Dispel
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Negate
1x Detention Sphere
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Spell Queller
1x Gideon of the Trials
2x Timely Reinforcements
I definitely feel that Spiral is powreful enough to splash green for. It was especially good against Tron, helping me to keep ahead of their threats with Cryptics and powering up Logic Knots while allowing me to recover very quickly from cast triggers hitting my lands. I think this list might be better than the Think Twice/WR list, but I still want to test Hieroglyphic Illumination and WR together. Maybe even throw in a Torrential Gearhulk or 2.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
The issue I see with bant tempo is that you don't really need to ramp to 4 on T3, you'd really rather ramp to 3 on T2 (for cantrip+counter or Threat+counter or T2 Queller). I think you might be better off with Noble Hierarchs, since the only real payoffs at 4 mana are Restoration Angel, Cryptic, and Jace, and one I just thought of -- Advent of the Wurm. Noble also lets you T2 Spiral in to 2 mana interaction like Leak/Knot.
The way I see it, you have 2 choices -- more tempo or more flash with Resto/Cryptics:
2x Celestial Colonnade
3x Botanical Sanctum
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Breeding Pool
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Queller
Consistency (8)
4x Serum Visions
4x Growth Spiral
Interaction (15)
4x Path to Exile
3x Spell Pierce
2x Logic Knot
1x Mana Leak
4x Cryptic Command
2x Disrupting Shoal
1x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
I cut Jace from the list because it's a little slow and doesn't flip Delver. I put in the rest of the Cryptics instead, since it fills the 4 slot for Shoal, can still gain CA, and flips Delver.
3x Celestial Colonnade
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Breeding Pool
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
3x Restoration Angel
Interaction (15)
4x Path to Exile
2x Settle the Wreckage
Counters (8)
1x Spell Snare
3x Logic Knot
4x Cryptic Command
4x Growth Spiral
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Here's the list I'm gonna look at (spoiler: it's not so very different from one JayJay tested a bit ago):
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hinterland Harbor
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Breeding Pool
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
Planeswalkers (5)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4x Path to Exile
1x Condemn
4x Terminus
Counters (9)
1x Spell Snare
3x Logic Knot
1x Negate
4x Cryptic Command
Virtual Card Advantage (12)
4x Opt
4x Growth Spiral
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Dispel
1x Celestial Purge
1x Negate
2x Spell Queller
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Detention Sphere
3x Timely Reinforcements
I have been finding Wilderness Reclamation to be very good, but only in a list with Think Twice. The issue is that Think Twice is a pretty poor draw spell for this deck, seeing as it's 3 mana to TT+Terminus if you're conscious of a miracle, and otherwise is generally slow (tho not too bad, since we have ramp and lots of time). But it's very annoying to have to decide whether to cycle TT while you have the two mana up or to wait until you can cycle it with a W up. You really don't want to draw a Terminus by accident when you don't have mana for it, since we don't play a lot of removal and the TT list doesn't have room for Snapcasters for extra ground protection. And that's assuming the TT is in your hand!
So, I'm trying out a list with Snaps and Opts over TT and WR. Rec is a no-go without TT, because otherwise you sit there with nothing to do with the mana. It's a shame, though, because I've actually found it to be really good when you have TTs and Spirals to go with it. Perhaps a list with 4 Hieroglyphic Illuminations and WR would be reasonable.
As for why I'm even splashing green in the first place, it's because have 8 (!!) cantrips that are honestly just good in general and also good for miracling Terminus on 2 is great, and so is playing a T3 Jace. Can't do that in straight UW.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
This is a list I could get behind. Not convinced on Wargate at all tho TBH.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Edit: I should clarify that I mean I played 6 fetches on purpose, not for budgetary concerns. I have the other fetches, but I honestly feel that numbers 7/8 aren't necessary.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I have to admit, I've never really been a fan of Glittering wish, but I do see the potential here -- Spiral makes clunky spells a lot easier to play. I'm gonna test this and see what happens.
I've played a large variety of Bant lists in the past (never worth posting until this one really), but if you really want more ramp, I've found that the 2nd best ramp spell to play is definitely Search for Tomorrow (Spiral obviously being the best
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I like the idea, and man do I LOVE incidental lifegain. I definitely forgot about Pulse. I wanted to play a Snapcaster or two, but there's just no targets for him other than Path really. You'd need 4 mana to Snap a Growth Spiral, and it's not a super high-value play anyways. As a side note, you can use Pulse of Murasa it to counter your opponent's Goryo's Vengeance or Prized Amalgam trigger.
Is Nexus really necessary? I mean, I feel like JtMS puts the game away a LOT faster, considering you see so many cards a turn with WR out and Spirals/Think Twices.
For sure, I'm thinking a 3/1 split makes sense, but I'm loving the evasion on Colonnade. You can't swing in a Falls vs. a Goyf or Hollow One or a big Shadow, for example.
Anyways, maybe I'm weird, but the moment Growth Spiral was spoiled I knew it would be my favorite card in the set. I'm pretty sure I did an irl fist pump when I saw it. WR was a latecomer to the deck, but it's been simultaneously great and super picky -- you have to have things to do with the mana, hence why I decided to play a set of Think Twice.
The main reason I'm playing 26 lands is to make certain I have one in hand (or draw one) to put into play with Growth Spiral. Otherwise it just cycles. I've tested a bit with 25 lands, and it seems fine. You do really wanna hit lands until 4 and windmill slam a WR on turn 3/4 (depending on whether or not you have a Growth Spiral). As for another planeswalker, I have a soft spot for Gideon Ally, so I could see playing one. I wouldn't cut Think Twice though -- it's super important for making WR good at what it does. I messed around with Hieroglyphic Illumination and Glimmer of Genius as well, but cycling illumination means you won't get a 2nd card from it later, and Glimmer can't be cast early at all.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Bant Draw-Go Control
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hinterland Harbor
4x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Breeding Pool
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Forest
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Growth Spiral
4x Think Twice
3x Wilderness Reclamation
Planeswalkers (5)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Removal (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Terminus
Counters (8)
3x Logic Knot
1x Negate
4x Cryptic Command
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Dispel
1x Negate
2x Celestial Purge
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Lyra Dawnbringer
Play T3 Jace or Cryptic off of Growth Spiral. If you draw into a Terminus off of a Spiral during their turn, you can cast it with the land you put into play. This means that, as long as you have a W producing land in hand, you can play a T2 Terminus off of Spiral.
You also get access to Wilderness Reclamation, which is nice with Think Twice and Azcanta but also just lets us tap out for walkers. It also lets you swing with Colonnades and then untap at eot to interact.
Any thoughts on the list?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.